Open Baldonnel for Civil Flights ASAP

Sarsfield

Dublin airport is only a medium sized airport by international standards. It currently has only one main runway and one terminal.

It has loads of space for growth. Room for at least two more terminals and a parallel runway.

It is very well positioned from the pov of arriving/departing aircraft as most approaches are over the sea. It's adjacent to the M1/M50, will have good public transport eventually and is very close to the city centre.

It is an ideal location for the airport.

To open Baldonnel would require significant infrastructural work to the aerodrome and also to its approaches. The money required to to this would give a much better return if invested at DUB instead.

bk

GerardKeating wrote:

Harrier's ?

OT but FYI Harriers normally take off and land like normal aircraft, the VTOL capabilities are only used in emergencies as it usues massive amounts of fuel, thus decreasing operational distance and weapons load.

Maskhadov

therecklessone wrote:

In the absence of you expanding on your brain wave, it seems your suggesting they sell off the AC's only airbase to buy fighters which will be based where?

Sorry I forgot to write the rest of it. The Air Corps should then relocate to Shannon airport.

Maskhadov

GerardKeating wrote:

Harrier's ?

Joint Strike Fighters;)

DublinWriter

weehamster wrote:

QUOTE=jackofalltrades]My home is in Artane which my parent’s originally bought. It is on a flight path and the planes go over my house which was built in 1959.

When I lived in North County Dublin, I was almost directly under the eastern approach, now I'm in feckin' Meath I'm directly under the flightpath for the western looparound!

Not that I mind, I actually like the sound, so I'm probably just sick.

However, NIMBY groups like Portmarnock's own UPROAR make me a little queezy.

bk

Maskhadov wrote:

Joint Strike Fighters;)

Same as the Harrier, see my post above. They don't normally operate VTOL. Actually IMO VTOL abilities in the JSF were a really bad idea.

jackofalltrades

That’s a stupid statement considering the Dublin Airport started in 1940. By the way Baldonnel had first been used as an airport for Aer Lingus in 1936. The same argument can be put to locals around there. Why should people endure more noise and others hardly any at all? Because Mary Harney says so and therefore good people in Dublin Mid West can have a good night sleep? Feck That.

My home is in Artane which my parent’s originally bought. It is on a flight path and the planes go over my house which was built in 1959. My parents knew the airport was there as well as thousands of others, but how in the hell would they have known the air traffic levels would be at the level it is now. Come on. Think first before you come out with a statement like the one above.

I have planes flying over at 1am. It can be really annoying at times. And for what, so people living around Baldonnell can go on their holidays to Costa del Bucket & Spade and then come back to the quiet homes.

It will be bad when the Terminal 2 and the expansion is completed. If terminal 3 is built, the entire village of St Margarets will pulled down, as well as dramatically increasing the air traffic on top of Terminal 1 & 2. More traffic = more noise. Why not build it at Baldonnell. It was the original choice, proposals were drawn out and it has the lands for a new terminal.

I don't consider my statement stupid at all, it refered to the fact the most of the people who live directly under the approach and takeoff paths (upwind section) of the main runway (10/28) bought their houses after the runway was built.

Capt'n Midnight

How about some Saab's then , even the second hand ones ?
Most can get away with 400m of road, and thanks to the NRA we have plenty.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Harrier_II
Empty weight: 5,700 kg
Max takeoff weight: (8,595 kg VTO, 14,061 kg STO )

To hover/land a harrier carries about 600Kg of dead weight. Water to cool the engines. So far less fuel and payload than in the STO mode.

Anyway a 747 can out run a Harrier. So not much use for hijackings.

Road infrastructure near Baldonnel is non existant in the sense that it has trouble serving peak traffic at present. yes there is a new link road being built, but Adamstown will have 10,000 homes, many needing double commuters to pay the mortgague, never mind the kids to be dropped off to schools.

Judging by other european cities that the low cost carriers fly from, you could have a new air port anywhere in mid Leinster, plenty of flat bogs to choose from.

Hotblack Desiato

Where I'm living is DIRECTLY under one of the approach paths to Baldonnel.

As a fan of most things flying, this wouldn't bother me were it not for the tendency of some Air Corps pilots to do repeated circuits VERY low, as in no more than 100 ft... The Govt. jet on its usual approach path is quieter than one of those prop trainers at such a low alt and it doesn't come around every few mins either :rolleyes:

Could be worse though, a friend lives out by Weston and is plagued by low flying GA noise every sunny weekend afternoon

The idea of developing Baldonnel is a non-runner for two reasons:

1. As has been pointed out here, infrastructure in this part of west Dublin is totally inadequate for present needs never mind an airport. As the most under-represented constituency in Ireland I don't expect this to improve any time soon.

2. Anything which directs investment away from DUB is going to be seen as 'downgrading' and will cost FF votes in the People's Republic of Fingal. So perhaps the posters here directing their ire at Ms Harney should be looking at Bertie instead.

Victor

Nobody wants to get off at Baldonnel only to have to go to Collinstown to get their connecting flight. It makes little sense to open Baldonnel for scheduled flights for a long time yet.

If Baldonnel gets a full refurbishment, it might make sense to move some of the general aviation there (cargo, private jets, helicopters, etc.), but Weston has a lot of theat business anyway.

therecklessone

ninja900 wrote:

Where I'm living is DIRECTLY under one of the approach paths to Baldonnel.

As a fan of most things flying, this wouldn't bother me were it not for the tendency of some Air Corps pilots to do repeated circuits VERY low, as in no more than 100 ft...

You either live in the grounds of Bal or have no idea what 100 ft looks like...

ninja900 wrote:

If Baldonnel gets a full refurbishment, it might make sense to move some of the general aviation there (cargo, private jets, helicopters, etc.), but Weston has a lot of theat business anyway.

IIRC, Jim Mansfield made an approach to the AC a few years back looking for access to Bal. One of the suggestions was a swap of facilities, AC to Weston, Mansfield's operation to Bal. Moving Weston ops to Bal would have been a sensible option in terms of airspace management and safety. Pardon the pun, but the suggestion wasn't a flyer.

As it is, the reclassification of airspace at Weston to Class C and the introduction of instrument procedures indicates Mansfield's intention to corner the market in business aviation.

dowlingm

Victor - then close Weston and make Jim Mansfield pay for his repeated nosethumbing at the planning process.

Move fixedwing to Knock (probably a better place for the CASAs to be for starters given their mission of Atlantic patrol), ministerial transport can stay at Bal with the other bizjets and rotary - I suppose the Curragh would do.

Gormanston is gone and given it's on the Dublin-Belfast line where development is going to happen that's probably for the best.

MG

In the same week that the new terminal was opened in Cork, Ryanair announced 12 new routes from Dublin. If Dublin airport is so overcrowded why not use the capacity of the other airports such as Cork and Shannon to their full potential before considering other expensive options?

therecklessone

MG wrote:

In the same week that the new terminal was opened in Cork, Ryanair announced 12 new routes from Dublin. If Dublin airport is so overcrowded why not use the capacity of the other airports such as Cork and Shannon to their full potential before considering other expensive options?

Em, maybe because even Ryanair wouldn't get away with calling Cork and Shannon Dublin South and Dublin West?

Maybe Ryanair don't see Cork and Shannon as capable od sustaining those new routes?

The three airports are supposed to be in competition now, why would the DAA direct that new business to its competitors?

Kashkai

As an ex-air traffic controller (who quit rather than be transferred from my beloved Dublin to the arsehole of the Universe aka Shannon), I'd like to give my informed tuppence worth -

Baldonnel's runway is based on the compass headings 050/230 degrees and therefore if an aircraft is approaching to land in a south westerly direction, its approach path is dangerously close to Dublin Airports main runway known as 10/28 (i.e. 100/280 degrees). Now while this isn't usually a problem with the limited traffic entering Baldonnel, if this was developed into a major airport, the queue of traffic lining up for approach would cross the approach/go round paths of air traffic entering Dublin Airport. Now you could use vertical separation, i.e. tell traffic entering Baldonnel to stay above say 5,000ft when crossing Dublin Airport but then they'd have a screaming descent into Baldonnel which might upset the gentry on the Government Jet and everyone else flying into Bal.

Now a new runway could (actually would have to) be built in Baldonnel to take modern jets but this would have to be parallel to the runway in Dublin Airport for safety reasons and to avoid a rollercoaster decent as stated above. This would then lead to major re-organisations of the airroutes into Dublin as the main holding pattern is Killiney which would be on the flightpath into Baldonnel.

The other problem using Baldonnel is that the mountains immediately to the south would impose restrictions on climbouts from the airport. Aircraft would have to climb straight ahead until they have gained sufficient altitude to turn left for the main airroutes to Europe and the UK thus wasting time/fuel.

Coordination between the two airports would be vital and would necessitate new air traffic control structures in Dublin, but this could be overcome with proper thought.

The notion of removing the Air Corps from Bal is nonsense. There are many examples of military and civilian air traffic using the sames airports around the world. The Air Corps would love to have modern runways and hangers for their aircraft. Give them control of the landing fees to fund an aircraft replacement programme perhaps?

The main problem as far as I see is that the rich suburbs of south Dublin such as Blackrock, Foxrock, Cabinteely etc would then be subjected to the heretofore unknown nuisance of aircraft noise. Lots of money, power, influence in these places that would scupper the idea at birth IMO.

therecklessone

Jesus Dave, you must be out a while...

Prosperous Dave wrote:

Baldonnel's runway is based on the compass headings 050/230 degrees and therefore if an aircraft is approaching to land in a south westerly direction, its approach path is dangerously close to Dublin Airports main runway known as 10/28 (i.e. 100/280 degrees).

Bal has two runways now, 05/23 and 11/29, the second of which is used almost 100% of the time (even with the wind favouring 05/23 the military fly approaches to 11/29 and circle to land within the R15).

Prosperous Dave wrote:

This would then lead to major re-organisations of the airroutes into Dublin as the main holding pattern is Killiney which would be on the flightpath into Baldonnel.

KLY hold? Jebus, its a while since thats been used. From the NW clockwise, the four main holds are DINIL, ROKNA (both north sector), TULSO, and NASRI (both south sector)

Prosperous Dave wrote:

The other problem using Baldonnel is that the mountains immediately to the south would impose restrictions on climbouts from the airport. Aircraft would have to climb straight ahead until they have gained sufficient altitude to turn left for the main airroutes to Europe and the UK thus wasting time/fuel.

Quite apart from the points above, runway heading of 23 isn't as restrictive as you think. Jet SIDs off 28 at Dub require 3000 ft by the OE, another 1100 ft and you'd be terrain safe within the Dub CTA. Translate that to BAL and its not a huge imposition, which do you think the airlines would prefer, departure delays at DUB or 7/8 mile straight ahead of 23 at BAL before turning on track?

Prosperous Dave wrote:

The notion of removing the Air Corps from Bal is nonsense. There are many examples of military and civilian air traffic using the sames airports around the world.

There's more reasons for moving them out than having to share facilities. The purchase of the PC9s means a lot of high level activity in the MOAs, which impacts on 10 arrivals at DUB. They move west to Knock that disappears, let them do their loop the loops over the Atlantic. The Casa's on the west coast makes a lot of sense.

BrianD

After reading this, its no wonder that Irelands transport situation is a mess. the people who call for Baldonnell to be opened are the same who call for privatisation of Dublin Bus whenever there's a strike (but only whenever there's a strike). The calls are rarely based on a rationale other than that they have been temporaily inconvenienced. Note the calls for a second airport normally happen during the Summer.

It seems to me that people equate a lack of terminal capacity with a lack of overall airport capacity. Therefore the easy solution is to call for another airport to be opened without even thinking about it. Baldonnell would require a complete rebuild, new road links, bus links and of course a metro link. This is not withstanding the fact that you'd have to attract airlines to it. Most cities the size of Dublin have one airport. In fact many cities larger than Dublin also just have the one airport. Let's develop a single airport and put in the extra capacity (runways and terminals) and the necessary connecting infrastructure.

I also suspect that there are vested interests who would like to open Baldonnell for their own reasons.

MG

therecklessone wrote:

Em, maybe because even Ryanair wouldn't get away with calling Cork and Shannon Dublin South and Dublin West?

Maybe Ryanair don't see Cork and Shannon as capable od sustaining those new routes?

The three airports are supposed to be in competition now, why would the DAA direct that new business to its competitors?

It’s not the DAA who should be doing this, but maybe consumers should be more open minded about where they travel from. Loads of people have to travel to Dublin to travel. For many it’s probably easier to get to Shannon or Cork. If it relieves the capacity problems at DA then, airlines should be open to moving if there was customer pressure. Would people really rather go through the hassle of Dublin airport than consider Shannon or Cork. Of course this may be airline lead as there is a better choice from Dublin, consumers don’t have the choice. Ryanair have shown that regional airports can work and there is a section of the traveling public who are fine with traveling to regional airports. I think you suggestion of Dublin South/West is flawed as there are plenty of inward travelers who travel around the country and do not need to arrive in Dublin. Not everyone wants to go to Dublin. It could be that the business case is not strong enough in current conditions but maybe when the Cork airport row is sorted out, we will see some flexibility. It’s unfortunate that Cork airport went overbudget (albeit in times of rapid building inflation) but at least they have built something which has an eye on future capacity requirements – how often do we do that in Ireland. Usually we spend hundreds of millions fixing the mess later (M50 anyone?). If the capacity is there, Consumers should want it used.

D'Peoples Voice

weehamster wrote:

It was the first preference, however locals complained to their TD In Dublin Mid Wets. Thats right it was everybodys favorate fat cow, Mary Harney.

Firstly while Mary & many other TDs from the Dublin Mid-west constituency as REPRESENTATIVES for the people of the area, voiced the opinions of those people they REPRESENT, the fact remains, it was in the hands of Local Government whether or not they would allow it become Dublin's second airport.
Local government in the most recent Local Area Plan for South Dublin County Area clearly has rezoned the area for commerical/residential in relatively close proximity to the airport, so my guess is that it can never now become a major airport.
As the PDs have little or no politicians on the local government in South Dublin county area, there would be no chance of Mary having any power to do anything. All the power rests with local government.

spacetweek

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Local government in the most recent Local Area Plan for South Dublin County Area clearly has rezoned the area for commerical/residential in relatively close proximity to the airport, so my guess is that it can never now become a major airport.

Not really. This map clearly shows that they haven't.

gobdaw

spacetweek wrote:

Not really. This map clearly shows that they haven't.

Any reservation for metro allignment? I can't see any.

YoYOPowder

Whatever you do dont even think about putting an Airport there. Sure there isn't a major road in miles, there's no railway tracks close by, there's no access to the majority of the country or business parks, Dublin City, well it's just too far away. Besides isn't there a Hurling team close by, well what would happen if the sliotars hit the plane and what about the birds? Well the plane might hit a bird, poor oul creatures!! :rolleyes:

dowlingm

yoyo are you talking about Bal? With the N7 nearby to the southwest, the outer ring road due to be passing near and the Kildare line directly to the northwest?

road_high

Does anyone else here remember talk of an airport (possibility of ) being built near Portlaoise? I vaguely remember this being discussed in the local papers a few years back and didn't here a word since (funnily enough!).

When you think about, would it be an ideal alternative to Dublin- i.e. in the centre of the burgeoning Leinster commuter belt, and also central for most of Munster.

I'm sure people here will scoff at the notion of such an airport, but it might warrant some thought. Afterall it's close to Dublin, with plenty of affordable flat land, and good and developing road network via N7/8.

Davidth88

Hi,

I don't think there is anyone who would like a new airport near them , if you live near an existing one then the chances are it was there before you , people who complain then remind me of the american tourist who was heard to say in Windsor Castle ....

You would have thought that the queen wouldn't have built the castle so close to Heathrow.

I can't see any reason why military traffic and civilian traffic can't mix ( look at Frankfurt ) , although the point that is made about the PC9s and the circuits clogging up the traffic pattern is a valid one.

Westan ( sp ? ) is certainly being built up as a biz jet centre , and although the people in Liexlip may disagree it makes perfect sense to me as an innocent bystander, this would free up slots at DUB .

DUB is underdeveloped really , the second terminal is part of the answer ( although in my opinion being built in the wrong place ) as would developing a second full length runway.

YoYOPowder

dowlingm wrote:

yoyo are you talking about Bal? With the N7 nearby to the southwest, the outer ring road due to be passing near and the Kildare line directly to the northwest?

Was just kidding!! Seems ideal to me

spacetweek

gobdaw wrote:

Any reservation for metro allignment? I can't see any.

Not marked on the dev plan, as it's so moveable I suppose. However, it does appear on this map, taken from this announcement about development at Balgaddy.

This map also shows for the first time an alignment for the Lucan Luas.

gobdaw

Ta, Spaceweek

Victor

Davidth88 wrote:

Westan ( sp ? ) is certainly being built up as a biz jet centre , and although the people in Liexlip may disagree it makes perfect sense to me as an innocent bystander, this would free up slots at DUB .

Once the parallel runway is built in Dublin, slots won't really be a problem.

DublinWriter

A lot of you have missed the point of a single point of failure.

For example, say there's a series bomb scare, 'plane crash, godforbid whatever in Dublin Airport - all the incoming traffic will be diverted where exactly? Cork? Belfast?

Dublin Airport needs a second terminal now, and will need a third terminal in 5 years. At this rate we won't even have a second terminal in five years time (yes I know it's scheduled for 2009, but what public building/transport programme was ever delivered on time?).

The answer of course is to open up Baldonnel. But thanks again to the brown-bag diddley-idle parish-pump politics of this country, forget about it.