I am tired of the mother F***ing Lags on the Mother F***ing steal

Bandana boy

So villain is a bit nuts and i have returned to Full Tilt where I tend to be a bit tighter than other sites
I am playibg at VPIP of 16 which is pratically unheard of from me

NL HE 1-2 6 max

So Hand 1 Villain has been in nearly every pot
Stacks
Villain 600+
Hero 200
I raise his BB to 9 with AK in CO
He plays
Flop 973
I bet 3/4 pot turn an 8 giving me fd and I pot it villain calls
I miss and check check on river
he flips over 84


Hand 2
I have KK
Stacks
Villain 750+
Hero 150

He raises UTG to 10 i reraise to 32 folded to villain who calls
Pot 67
Flop 972 two tone
He leads for 20 i make it 60 to play he pushs I call he has 73os
mhig

Hand 3 and the doozy
Villain has called every pre flop raise i make and has started laying down to my reraises on flop I have increased my reraise amount pre flop as he is calling each time with rags
Stacks
Villain 900+
Hero 450+

On BB i get KK again
He raises to 10 from emp I make it 45
Villain calls
POT 91

Flop T44
He leads for 30 i make it 100 and he calls ?

Plan for the hand

Hectorjelly

1 Dont raise the flop
2 check behind turn, try and get to a cheap showdown
3 flop raise is real bad

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

1 Dont raise the flop
2 check behind turn, try and get to a cheap showdown
3 flop raise is real bad

i dont agree with hand 3 the flop raise being bad.
If this is the same villain from the previous hands then he will call with any T, any PP, which we beat, AA, and obviously any 4.
Him having a 4 its not likely (possible though) but against that range against this particular player I don’t mind getting all in simply because my hand is better than the range of hands he is willing to stick it all in with.

eggie

Is this the same villain?

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

1 Dont raise the flop
2 check behind turn, try and get to a cheap showdown
3 flop raise is real bad

I think against this type of opponent, I would be happy to get it all in on the flop, hence I don't mind raising the flop, in fact I would go so far to say that I prefer raising the flop to calling against this sort of player.

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

1 Dont raise the flop
2 check behind turn, try and get to a cheap showdown
3 flop raise is real bad

does not compute

we more than likely have the best hand so why not bet it hard if villain is a nutter and will stay with us?

Bandana boy

eggie wrote:

Is this the same villain?

Yes
Same villain all three hands

eggie

Going by his history his hand range seems large although he has called your re-raise twice. I'd check/ call to showdown from this point forward.

Hectorjelly

Based on the hands before and his lead on the flop I think the villain probably has a 4, if you want to put your stack in every time you might be ahead thats fine but im not going to try and play a huge pot when the flop comes up 44x. Against a tight player raising actually makes more sense as they are unlikely to have called preflop with any hand containing a four.

edit to note that raising also makes him folds his totally useless hands

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

edit to note that raising also makes him folds his totally useless hands

hand 2, he called Bandana Boy's push with 2nd pair...he is clearly a nutjob

cardshark202

I don't agree that villian 'probably has a four' he could easily have 55 or something, and going by the previous hands, it seems unlikely he will fold this to a raise. See hand 2 where villian led with and re-raised all in with middle pair. I'm doing my best to get it all in here. Against a very good lag I would definately play it more cautiously.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

Based on the hands before and his lead on the flop I think the villain probably has a 4, if you want to put your stack in every time you might be ahead thats fine but im not going to try and play a huge pot when the flop comes up 44x. Against a tight player raising actually makes more sense as they are unlikely to have called preflop with any hand containing a four.

edit to note that raising also makes him folds his totally useless hands

This is not true.
As can be seen from other hands villain does not fold even third pair or second pair and is willing to get his stack in with anything. it is possible he has a 4 yes but its not likely as he raised pre flop and called a raise(even though this reason doesn’t really play apart against this villain ) and there are two fours on the flop.
His much more likely to have a T,JJ,QQ,AK,AQ,99 or something we can beat.
The question that should be asked here is this:
If you have KK and the flop is T44 and villain would call your all in with AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ,AT,KT,QT,JT,TT,99,88,77,66 and also any that includes a 4 would you be happy to get it all in.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

This is not true.
As can be seen from other hands villain does not fold even third pair or second pair and is willing to get his stack in with anything. it is possible he has a 4 yes but its not likely as he raised pre flop and called a raise(even though this reason doesn’t really play apart against this villain ) and there are two fours on the flop.
His much more likely to have a T,JJ,QQ,AK,AQ,99 or something we can beat.
The question that should be asked here is this:
If you have KK and the flop is T44 and villain would call your all in with AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ,AT,KT,QT,JT,TT,99,88,77,66 and also any that includes a 4 would you be happy to get it all in.

In hand 2 he raised utg with 73o, so I dont think you can apply a range like AA-66, AK etc. So he basically has any two cards. On hand 1 he check called the flop with no pair and no draw. Hand 2 he led with a piece of the flop.
So when he leads the flop in hand 3 I think he has a piece of the flop, I really doubt he has an overpair like 99 - QQ as there is no reason to suspect this guy will slowplay them preflop. With the continued pounding the guy has been taking from bandana boy I think the guy will start to fold marginal hands to him, raising the drawless flop just makes it easy for him to fold. We can still play whatever size pot we want from the flop on with whatever read we pick up from his play, but raising the flop means if he has a 4 we are now committed to stacking off.

One of the main reasons to raise overpairs on normal boards, ie where they are all different cards is so we can get the money in now when we are fairly sure we are ahead, and we dont want people catching 2 pair. On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better. Even if we intend to end up all in anyway we can get away from the hand if the river is a ten.

Lastly we are in position and should use that to decide what size pot we want to play. KK on this board against anyone isnt that strong a hand.

edit just to add, there are three unaccounted for tens and two fours. With this villain he is just as likely to have a hand that contains a four as a ten (before the flop). So its quite likely he has a four (assuming he has some part of the flop hell have one 2/5 of the time), and we will often be able to deduce which by the river.

Hectorjelly

El Stuntman wrote:

hand 2, he called Bandana Boy's push with 2nd pair...he is clearly a nutjob

ive called all in with no pair before. Anyway I meant he will fold his no pair hands

Bandana boy

ok so what happened
So we have HJ and egg suggesting caution
G man and the rest suggesting get the money in
I was nervous about the call and would have preferred a push as i think JJ QQ 99 etc hands i want to see villain with would push here.

plus there is a lot more at stake now as i have 3 times the stack when i had KK and the betting is much more aggresive than the 84 floated hand i really felt fine re-raising but hated it as soon as he called

Turn is a 7 and Villain leads for 75 i flat call
pot 441
river a Q and villain pushs
230 + to call and i make the crying call

Villain shows t4
Is this well played Villain ? or A slap on the wrists for me

El Stuntman

Villain is a moron and I hope you rebought

Still don't like HJ's line

The clue was definitely in the title of this thread....(which for some reason put me in mind of Samuel L Jackson - you didn't go to see Snakes on a Plane! this weekend by any chance?)

Hectorjelly

The villain played it well given how most people treat/play overpairs.

Hectorjelly

El Stuntman wrote:

Villain is a moron and I hope you rebought

Still don't like HJ's line

Using a mysterious tool called hand reading I thought villain was likely to have a four. What line would you suggest given that?

Bandana boy

El Stuntman wrote:

Villain is a moron and I hope you rebought

Still don't like HJ's line

The clue was definitely in the title of this thread....(which for some reason put me in mind of Samuel L Jackson - you didn't go to see Snakes on a Plane! this weekend by any chance?)

i motherf***ing did and for some strange reason i am adding motherf***er into every sentance today
not good when i have a motherf***ing 3 continent conf call in 70 mins.

El Stuntman

Bandana boy wrote:

i motherf***ing did and for some strange reason i am adding motherf***er into every sentance today
not good when i have a motherf***ing 3 continent conf call in 70 mins.

just change it to muthafecker and it'll be alright on the night - worked for Father Ted

Ste05

When playing LAG, there's nothing nicer than to play a hand against a TAG when they telegraph their hand. In or out of position.

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

Using a mysterious tool called hand reading I thought villain was likely to have a four. What line would you suggest given that?

Not being blessed with your incredible hand reading powers (which were naturally in no way influenced by the title of the post), given the info supplied by Bandana boy I though it unlikely that villain would have any hand containing a 4

I was wrong but faced with the same situation I would be wrong again and again (which is very disturbing!) which is why you are a pro poker player and I am not

If I knew he had a 4 I would folded to his 30 bet on the flop!!

eggie

I think his turn bet is too weak for him not to have a hand here, especially after the flat calls previously; it suggests strength to suck you in, if he was trying to get you off the hand he would have bet bigger (as he did in a previous hand). As far as the villain playing it well, i think you played it for him until the river.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

In hand 2 he raised utg with 73o, so I dont think you can apply a range like AA-66, AK etc. So he basically has any two cards. On hand 1 he check called the flop with no pair and no draw. Hand 2 he led with a piece of the flop.
So when he leads the flop in hand 3 I think he has a piece of the flop, I really doubt he has an overpair like 99 - QQ as there is no reason to suspect this guy will slowplay them preflop. With the continued pounding the guy has been taking from bandana boy I think the guy will start to fold marginal hands to him, raising the drawless flop just makes it easy for him to fold. We can still play whatever size pot we want from the flop on with whatever read we pick up from his play, but raising the flop means if he has a 4 we are now committed to stacking off.

One of the main reasons to raise overpairs on normal boards, ie where they are all different cards is so we can get the money in now when we are fairly sure we are ahead, and we dont want people catching 2 pair. On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better. Even if we intend to end up all in anyway we can get away from the hand if the river is a ten.

Lastly we are in position and should use that to decide what size pot we want to play. KK on this board against anyone isnt that strong a hand.

edit just to add, there are three unaccounted for tens and two fours. With this villain he is just as likely to have a hand that contains a four as a ten (before the flop). So its quite likely he has a four (assuming he has some part of the flop hell have one 2/5 of the time), and we will often be able to deduce which by the river.

i'll have to disagree with this again.
first off to a post you replied to stuntman you said "using hand reading skills you concluded he has a 4" . i doubt there is any skills you can have which allows you to read this type of villians's hand.yes he had a 4 here but he was just as likely to have amythign else like JJ,QQ,AT, so based on the line villain took you cant assume he has 4 .having 4 is only with in his range.and as you said your self here villain could possibly be holding more or less any two cards.
you also suggested that because he is continuing with the hand the way he is he must have a part of the flop.again this is not true as he could have a PP either higher or lower than the T on the board and we would act the same way.
you also said
"So when he leads the flop in hand 3 I think he has a piece of the flop, I really doubt he has an overpair like 99 - QQ as there is no reason to suspect this guy will slowplay them preflop."
again the above is not true as villain raised pre-flop so you cant say he dosent have 99-QQ cuz he didnt slow play it.

you also said
"With the continued pounding the guy has been taking from bandana boy I think the guy will start to fold marginal hands to him"
again the above does not hold true as we have seen he does not fold marginal hands becuase he doesnt seem to know what marginal is or means.

you also said
"On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better."

if he is indeed drawing to two outs but is willing to call his stack of with it then why not get it in there.if this is the case what is the advatange of playing a small pot?

you said:
"One of the main reasons to raise overpairs on normal boards, ie where they are all different cards is so we can get the money in now when we are fairly sure we are ahead, and we dont want people catching 2 pair. On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better. Even if we intend to end up all in anyway we can get away from the hand if the river is a ten."

this does not make sense to me.are you suggesting just check/calling here and then droping if the river is a T?
are we to avoid getting all in untill the river but as soon as the river is not a T then we cango ahead and get in there?
what if villain doesnt want to get in there if the river is not a T but is more than happy to play for stacks from the flop to see if the river is a T or not?
what if the river is 7 and we get in there and villain has 77?


you said:
"Lastly we are in position and should use that to decide what size pot we want to play. KK on this board against anyone isnt that strong a hand.
"
this is true ,we are in position and we have decided we wanna play a big pot.
its not becuase we think KK is very strong on TT4 board.its becuase we think KK is very strong on TT4 against this particular villain.
i can safely say this villain would play QQ,JJ,AT,KT, and possibly AK,QT,JT the same way.
against that range i would be happy to get in all in.

I played with exact same type of villain last nite.
I had KsKc and the board on the river read 2d 3d Td 6c Ad .
There was a rasing and calling on all the streets starting from pre-flop.
On the river the pot was 300 and I moved in for another 300. Villain called after thinking a few seconds. Guess what? I won the hand .can you figure what villain had?

El Stuntman

that's what I wanted to say

eggie

KsKc and the board on the river read 2d 3d Td 6c Ad - you bet the pot on the river, he calls and you win????

lol, guy must have been on drugs.

Gholimoli

eggie wrote:

KsKc and the board on the river read 2d 3d Td 6c Ad - you bet the pot on the river, he calls and you win????

lol, guy must have been on drugs.

he was just the same type of villain as the one described in this post.
my point is you can put these people on hands based on how they play.
they play based on how they feel and what they think is rigt.
and both of them are focked up as far as proper poker is concerned.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

i'll have to disagree with this again.
first off to a post you replied to stuntman you said "using hand reading skills you concluded he has a 4" . i doubt there is any skills you can have which allows you to read this type of villians's hand.yes he had a 4 here but he was just as likely to have amythign else like JJ,QQ,AT, so based on the line villain took you cant assume he has 4 .having 4 is only with in his range.and as you said your self here villain could possibly be holding more or less any two cards.
you also suggested that because he is continuing with the hand the way he is he must have a part of the flop.again this is not true as he could have a PP either higher or lower than the T on the board and we would act the same way.

I dont agree that he could have a pp either higher or lower than the ten. I think that its very very unlikely he has one higher, and theres a small chance that he has a lower pair. Its always much more likely that someone has an unpaired hand rather than a paired one. (you get a pair 1/17 times) This doesnt hold so much for normal players (as they will tend to call with all pairs but fold many unpaired hands) but we have seen his range is absolutely anthing, and so not weighted towards pairs as much as other hands.

Gholimoli wrote:

you also said
"So when he leads the flop in hand 3 I think he has a piece of the flop, I really doubt he has an overpair like 99 - QQ as there is no reason to suspect this guy will slowplay them preflop."
again the above is not true as villain raised pre-flop so you cant say he dosent have 99-QQ cuz he didnt slow play it.

He would probably 3 bet pre with a high pp

Gholimoli wrote:

you also said
"With the continued pounding the guy has been taking from bandana boy I think the guy will start to fold marginal hands to him"
again the above does not hold true as we have seen he does not fold marginal hands becuase he doesnt seem to know what marginal is or means.

Players dont exist within a vacuum. All players adjust to their opponents play, allthough bad players do it slowly. I think that he will have copped on to a certain extent that bandana boy will have an overpair in this situation. Also there is more money at stake now which will have an effect.

Gholimoli wrote:

you also said
"On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better."

if he is indeed drawing to two outs but is willing to call his stack of with it then why not get it in there.if this is the case what is the advatange of playing a small pot?

you said:

If we know for sure he is ahead and will call all in then of course its better to play a big pot Since neither of those conditions are true its doesnt mean much

"One of the main reasons to raise overpairs on normal boards, ie where they are all different cards is so we can get the money in now when we are fairly sure we are ahead, and we dont want people catching 2 pair. On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better. Even if we intend to end up all in anyway we can get away from the hand if the river is a ten."

Gholimoli wrote:

this does not make sense to me.are you suggesting just check/calling here and then droping if the river is a T?
are we to avoid getting all in untill the river but as soon as the river is not a T then we cango ahead and get in there?
what if villain doesnt want to get in there if the river is not a T but is more than happy to play for stacks from the flop to see if the river is a T or not?
what if the river is 7 and we get in there and villain has 77?

That would be a pretty good line. If you call a bet on the flop and turn and the river is a ten then folding to abig bet wouldbe pretty standard. I wouldnt raise the river, but an advantage of that would be you could make sure he hasnt outdrawn you. Im not happy to play this for stacks at any point bar preflop.

Gholimoli wrote:

you said:
"Lastly we are in position and should use that to decide what size pot we want to play. KK on this board against anyone isnt that strong a hand.
"
this is true ,we are in position and we have decided we wanna play a big pot.
its not becuase we think KK is very strong on TT4 board.its becuase we think KK is very strong on TT4 against this particular villain.
i can safely say this villain would play QQ,JJ,AT,KT, and possibly AK,QT,JT the same way.
against that range i would be happy to get in all in.

Well I disagree with this. I actually think you hand range is bizarre. Why are you listing good hands like? QQ, JJ, AT, KT? I think you are just as likely to see T2 as AT.

Gholimoli wrote:

I played with exact same type of villain last nite.
I had KsKc and the board on the river read 2d 3d Td 6c Ad .
There was a rasing and calling on all the streets starting from pre-flop.
On the river the pot was 300 and I moved in for another 300. Villain called after thinking a few seconds. Guess what? I won the hand .can you figure what villain had?

I have no idea what he had, and no idea what you were doing either. Were you bluffing? I dont really see the relevance to be honest.

cardshark202

If we assume villian will go for his stack with any pocket pair, and ten, any four and, if the board is two tone, any flush draw, surely raising the flop is better. We have no info on him which says he will continue to fire barrels with no-pair and no draw. On the info given, I think its safe to say villain would lead here with any pocket pair.

Say we just call the flop bet, villian pots a blank turn and pushes a brick river, are we calling him down?

Ste05

Based on 3 hands you can't say whether this LAG is a bad player or not. Hand 2 would lend itself to the Villain just being a LAG Fish, but his Stack seems to be growing which would also lend itself to him having good Post Flop skills, necessary to play this style.

In this hand if the Villain is a good LAG then this hand is so easy to play it's not funny. He can call this PF Re-raise with any 2 cards nearly, and expect to Stack our Hero if he outflops AA or KK. I've lost count of the times I've stacked TAG's with Rags by calling their Re-Raise PF, unfortunately for our Hero he had no choice but to Re-Raise PF, but if I was the Villain, I wouldn't have put another Cent into the pot unless I could beat AA or KK, now I'm not sure whether this guy is a good LAG, or not (In 6-max I'm very loose but I'd be unlikely to be playing T4 and I'd lead for more than 30 here) but this hand is a perfect example of how this LAG style can be very effective.

It also shows how against TAG players (as can be seen from many posts in this thread), who will always go for their stack in a hand like this, can be profitable, (maybe not T4,:eek: but certainly a very side range that would include 45, 46, 34) especially when we know EXACTLY what the TAG has.

El Stuntman

Ste05 wrote:

his Stack seems to be growing which would also lend itself to him having good Post Flop skills, necessary to play this style.

This post-flop skill set includes calling off 75BBs with 73 on a 972 flop when, according to you, he can easily put Hero on an overpair? (i.e. hand 2)

Come off it!!! Good bluff Ste..

eggie

Gholimoli wrote:

he was just the same type of villain as the one described in this post.
my point is you can put these people on hands based on how they play.
they play based on how they feel and what they think is rigt.
and both of them are focked up as far as proper poker is concerned.

I understand what your saying gholi and agree there are some idiots out there who play any pp in this situation but they soon learn not to after getting burned a few times. I just think the villains betting patterns alone in this particular hand suggests he wants action. He gets re-raised twice after making average bets, then makes another average bet on the turn. Even villains like this get lucky sometimes and he would definitely be putting bandana boy (plays tight on FT) on an overpair or AT (TT unlikely as he has one) after he calls the turn (AK AQ etc arent staying in here unless they bluff raise).

Maybe they dont think exactly this way but they will have some idea of whats going on, and defo think they are ahead. He's not pushing until the river because he's getting pulled along up to that point.

The only way i would go all-in here is preflop.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont agree that he could have a pp either higher or lower than the ten. I think that its very very unlikely he has one higher, and theres a small chance that he has a lower pair. Its always much more likely that someone has an unpaired hand rather than a paired one. (you get a pair 1/17 times) This doesnt hold so much for normal players (as they will tend to call with all pairs but fold many unpaired hands) but we have seen his range is absolutely anthing, and so not weighted towards pairs as much as other hands.



He would probably 3 bet pre with a high pp



Players dont exist within a vacuum. All players adjust to their opponents play, allthough bad players do it slowly. I think that he will have copped on to a certain extent that bandana boy will have an overpair in this situation. Also there is more money at stake now which will have an effect.



If we know for sure he is ahead and will call all in then of course its better to play a big pot Since neither of those conditions are true its doesnt mean much

"One of the main reasons to raise overpairs on normal boards, ie where they are all different cards is so we can get the money in now when we are fairly sure we are ahead, and we dont want people catching 2 pair. On a T44 flop if he has KT he is drawing to 2 outs, so just calling is much better. Even if we intend to end up all in anyway we can get away from the hand if the river is a ten."



That would be a pretty good line. If you call a bet on the flop and turn and the river is a ten then folding to abig bet wouldbe pretty standard. I wouldnt raise the river, but an advantage of that would be you could make sure he hasnt outdrawn you. Im not happy to play this for stacks at any point bar preflop.



Well I disagree with this. I actually think you hand range is bizarre. Why are you listing good hands like? QQ, JJ, AT, KT? I think you are just as likely to see T2 as AT.




I have no idea what he had, and no idea what you were doing either. Were you bluffing? I dont really see the relevance to be honest.

i disagree on this one with you totally HJ for the reasons i stated The main one being villain has no idea what he is doing based on previous hands. all we know from him is if he has a pair then he doesn’t fold, he can raise with them or call with them but what he know is he doesn’t fold it. As for what you suggested about ALL players adjusting to their opponents I would have to disagree again as adjusting it self could be a too complicated of a concept for some to grasp never mind adjusting correctly.
As for his hand range it could certainly be wider than what I suggested but im certain its not narrower and the wider the range the better it is for our hand.
You have failed to give a proper reason why he doesn’t have JJ,QQ here and all you said is “I think he would 3 bet pre-flop” and for this type of villain that reason is certainly not enough to take it off his range. He could want to trap with it or what ever reason the fact is I don’t know the reason but what I know is that its certainly possible so should deffo be with in his range.
Lastly the hand I posted was to get a point across that there are players who don’t know sh1t about sh1t and they certainly cant adjust to sh1t or from sh1t because they are simply too sh1t.
I was playing with this villain for about 90 mins and because he was bad I got involved with sh1t loads of pots with him and he failed to adjust until he busted out.
What I was doing in the hand or how I played it is completely irrelevant what matter is there are players that will call a pot sized bet on the river of 2d 4d Td 6c Ad and then lose to Ks Kc. do you see its relevance now?

Ste05

El Stuntman wrote:

This post-flop skill set includes calling off 75BBs with 73 on a 972 flop when, according to you, he can easily put Hero on an overpair? (i.e. hand 2)

Come off it!!! Good bluff Ste..

Well as I said Hand 2 would lend my opinion to him not being great, but a few points,
1. He didn't call, he pushed.
2. He had a pair and a reputation of being a looney, I'd say AK might call here.
3. Hero was shorter stacked than here.
4. The Villain hadn't played with our Hero for very long

Although 73, isn't really a profitable hand to play with. But generally with this style your cards don't matter for picking up small pots. Although he should have folded to the 60 re-raise.

However these quotes would make me think he was running over the table - even making our Hero play with a VPiP of 16 in a 6 max table...

Bandana boy wrote:

So villain is a bit nuts and i have returned to Full Tilt where I tend to be a bit tighter than other sites
I am playibg at VPIP of 16 which is pratically unheard of from me

And this post would make me think he has adjusted to our Hero;

Bandana boy wrote:

Hand 3 and the doozy
Villain has called every pre flop raise i make and has started laying down to my reraises on flop I have increased my reraise amount pre flop as he is calling each time with rags

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

i disagree on this one with you totally HJ for the reasons i stated The main one being we have no idea whether or not the villain has any idea what he is doing based on previous hands. all we know from him is if he has a pair then he doesn’t fold, he can raise with them or call with them but what he know is he doesn’t fold it.

How can you make these assumptions?? I made a few changes to your post that I think should be there.

You realise his stack was 600+ in hand 1, 750+ in hand 2, and 900+ in Hand 3. Only the OP can say whether he was hitting Trips left right and center to make this stack, or whether he was winning loads of medium and small pots without showing down a hand. To gain this stack...

El Stuntman

Ste05 wrote:

How can you make these assumptions?? I made a few changes to your post that I think should be there.

You realise his stack was 600+ in hand 1, 750+ in hand 2, and 900+ in Hand 3. Only the OP can say whether he was hitting Trips left right and center to make this stack, or whether he was winning loads of medium and small pots without showing down a hand. To gain this stack...

Good Point!!

Bandana Boy we need more info (and I'd like his username )

cardshark202

Ste05 was the villian!

Ste05

cardshark202 wrote:

Ste05 was the villian!

ROFL, ye I do seem to be defending him a bit much, but this is how I sometimes play in a 6 max game and I can look like a complete loon at times, but there can be method to the madness...

El Stuntman

Ste05 wrote:

Well as I said Hand 2 would lend my opinion to him not being great, but a few points,
1. He didn't call, he pushed.
2. He had a pair and a reputation of being a looney, I'd say AK might call here.
3. Hero was shorter stacked than here.
4. The Villain hadn't played with our Hero for very long
;

still not buying it Ste, he 3-betted with 2nd pair no kicker when according to you (as he is a 'good' LAG), he knows that Hero has an overpair and (given stack size) there's no way he can make Hero fold with this 'move'

therefore unless he is (expensively) buying a table image, I don't accept your argument re hand 2

also, even if he plays LAG well (and i don't think he does), T4 is still no hand to be going up against an overpair for 22BB pre-flop as you are going to win 13.5% of hands....no matter how amazing your post-flop skills are, you are going to lose a lot of money in the medium/long term

personally I think Bandana Boy should be re-raising both hands to 40/50 BB pre-flop which sounds mad but this guy is such an idiot he will probably call...

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

What I was doing in the hand or how I played it is completely irrelevant what matter is there are players that will call a pot sized bet on the river of 2d 4d Td 6c Ad and then lose to Ks Kc. do you see its relevance now?

So because you found someone stupid enough to call your bet there and lose we should stack off every time the board pairs, we have an overpair and the villain is bad? Unless its the same villain or he plays exactly the same there is nothing to be learnt from that hand.

You seem to think that its impossible to read players like this and, and so we should just get it all in if we are good against his range with no thought to pot control or trying to read his hand. I think that players like this are very readable, and when he leads that flop I would think that there is a very good chance he has a 4 and we should see a turn and get some more info using our position and experience before deciding to play for our stacks. There is nothing to be gained from raising the flop in my opinion.

Hectorjelly

I think its clear that the villain is a very poor player

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

So because you found someone stupid enough to call your bet there and lose we should stack off every time the board pairs, we have an overpair and the villain is bad? Unless its the same villain or he plays exactly the same there is nothing to be learnt from that hand.

You seem to think that its impossible to read players like this and, and so we should just get it all in if we are good against his range with no thought to pot control or trying to read his hand. I think that players like this are very readable, and when he leads that flop I would think that there is a very good chance he has a 4 and we should see a turn and get some more info using our position and experience before deciding to play for our stacks. There is nothing to be gained from raising the flop in my opinion.

HJ, he led the previous flop with muck - why would he not be doing the same here?

Ste05

El Stuntman wrote:

still not buying it Ste, he 3-betted with 2nd pair no kicker when according to you (as he is a 'good' LAG), he knows that Hero has an overpair and (given stack size) there's no way he can make Hero fold with this 'move'

therefore unless he is (expensively) buying a table image, I don't accept your argument re hand 2

also, even if he plays LAG well (and i don't think he does), T4 is still no hand to be going up against an overpair for 22BB pre-flop as you are going to win 13.5% of hands....no matter how amazing your post-flop skills are, you are going to lose a lot of money in the medium/long term

personally I think Bandana Boy should be re-raising both hands to 40/50 BB pre-flop which sounds mad but this guy is such an idiot he will probably call...

I agree with these points, and as I said in hand 2 he should have folded to the 60 re-raise. Also as I said I wouldn't be playing T4, nor would I call the re-raise with it (it's too big a raise, but my point was regarding calling re-raises from a TAG generally),

I'm also not saying he's a good LAG, just that we don't know. Also in hands like this a LAG would be out of his mind to try and out play the Hero post flop. The OP has already said he's willing to go for stacks with his PF Re-raise. So he'd be mad to try and take the Hero off his big pair.

When I was referring to good Post Flop skills I was referring to the other 150 hands where he possibly won small to medium pots, slowly building his stack, waiting to stack someone when he picks up a big hand. But as said only the OP can say how he grew this stack.

But certainly 73 and T4 are hands that he shouldn't be playing bar trying to rob blinds.

Hectorjelly

El Stuntman wrote:

HJ, he led the previous flop with muck - why would he not be doing the same here?

He led with a pair, and check called with no pair. Also when you say muck what do you mean? Because if you mean no pair muck then calling is probably better, as he cant outdraw us and hell probably fold.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think its clear that the villain is a very poor player

3 isolated Hands played by a LAG shows very little, if anything. All these show is he has a HUGE range. He probably is as terrible as we all think, i.e. 73 and T4 should not be played, but we still need more info.

EDIT: Info, which can't be really be posted on a board like this. These hands are situations where you really had to have a detailed history with the Villain.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

So because you found someone stupid enough to call your bet there and lose we should stack off every time the board pairs, we have an overpair and the villain is bad? Unless its the same villain or he plays exactly the same there is nothing to be learnt from that hand.

You seem to think that its impossible to read players like this and, and so we should just get it all in if we are good against his range with no thought to pot control or trying to read his hand. I think that players like this are very readable, and when he leads that flop I would think that there is a very good chance he has a 4 and we should see a turn and get some more info using our position and experience before deciding to play for our stacks. There is nothing to be gained from raising the flop in my opinion.

this is getting silly now.
where did i say what your suggesting there?
the hand was posted to say ppl make strange plays which makes no sense at all in proper poker terms.the hand i posted was one example of many i have seen as im sure have others.this suggests that you the villain in the two hands dont have to be the same as you suggested but only of the same type(the clueless type).
you say you can read this player well i say fair play to you but your waiting value buy trying to READ them.
just becuase he had a 4 here(which was obvious from the post bytheway cuz i think that was the whole purpose of it) it dosent mean that his lead on the turn meant he had a 4.
it could have meant anything from a 4 to an over pair to any T .
this player has shown nothing to indicate that he is aware of anything .all hi has shown is that he dosent like folding as long as he has any pair at all (which includes a pocket pair).
against the same type of villain i would be happy to get it all in on the flop becuase more oftne than not i would be miles ahead of him.
now thats my openion and it obviously differs from yours and i dont think either of us is going to convince the other that his wrong so we should just leave it at that i think.

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

3 isolated Hands played by a LAG shows very little, if anything. All these show is he has a HUGE range. He probably is as terrible as we all think, i.e. 73 and T4 should not be played, but we still need more info.

EDIT: Info, which can't be really be posted on a board like this. These hands are situations where you really had to have a detailed history with the Villain.

????

WTF! No I disagree completly. He called off 1/7 of bandanas stack with 73o out of position. Thats all I need to know. Based on the hands posted, and the fact he was playing nearly every hand its clear he is a very loose bad player. Players like this will often destroy a table if they hit cards, they will never win in the medium or long term.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

all hi has shown is that he dosent like folding as long as he has any pair at all (which includes a pocket pair).

Where are you getting this from?? How do you know he wouldn't have pushed PF with a PP?

Hectorjelly

Fair enough Gholi

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

WTF! No I disagree completly. He called off 1/7 of bandanas stack with 73o out of position.

Ye I suppose you have a point here, 73o is such a bad hand. And as I have been saying all along Hand 2 is the hand (for more reason's than just this point) that would lend me to the opinion that he's not a good player. But the OP might have been playing very Weak Passively up to here for all we know.

EDIT: Weak Tight Post Flop, obviously...

Re-Edit: E.G. If the OP had AK and folded to the original 20 bet.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

Where are you getting this from?? How do you know he wouldn't have pushed PF with a PP?

im not exactly sure what your point is here.
how do i know what?that he dosent like folding?
becuase he didnt fold in either of the last two hands .

how do i know he wouldnt push with PP pre-flop ?i dont know
but are you saying becuase he didnt push pre-flop then he dosent have a PP?