Eternal Seperation from God (AKA: Hell)

Ayla

In another thread the topic of Hell came up, and I thought the concept deserved another discussion.

My question is this...if Hell punishes non-Christians by forcing them to endure eternal seperation from God, how is that different from their life on Earth?

Let me explain...If someone during their life decides to live a non-Christian life, and they are content to live without God's presence, then would Hell (being seperated from God eternally) be any different then their life on Earth? Is there more to the definition of Hell that I am unaware of?

I was born and raised a devout Christian, and I'm familiar with the concept of Hell (although a lot of my teachings were more like "fire & brimstone" then seperation from God). So I am not trying to be in any way disrespectful of Hell as a concept or those who believe in it as reality. I'm just asking this question.

Am I missing another part of the Hell concept? Is there more to it?

Medina

Hi Ayla its a good idea for a thread alright

I think its important to mention that Christians themselves can end up in hell according to some Christian faiths such as Catholicism. I know other Christian faiths say that Christians cannot end up in hell if they believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God..that's really a separate debate but I think Christians have as much chance of ending up hell as non-Christians if not more actually.

I would think Christians have more chance of ending up there because they accept the religion and so have a duty to live by it whereas non-Christians never accepted it in the first place. But thats just an opinion and may be wrong.

My answer to your question would be, well even if you choose to be a non-Christian, how can you be sure that God is not involved in your life? I think God is there for all people, and He awaits them to repent and turn to him, so He can be merciful. I think when a soul (and I won't categorise their earthly religion) ends up in Hell, before they got there , the truth was shown to them. Now everyone thinks differently about what the truth is.

So the debate is only worthwhile if we proceed on a common assumption for the sake of the debate.

So lets say that God expected you to turn to Him, and live by Christian faith and belief in Son of God. Then this was revealed to you when you died. How would you feel? Terrified and full of regret I would imagine. And then you're sent to Hell, for eternity and there is no chance of escape, of mercy, no hope. Hopelessness must be one of the worst agonies ever. Imagine how hopeless a person might be to commit suicide? Suicide might be deemed an escape to some of those poor people. But in hell a soul has no escape.

I think if you try to imagine the scenario above as correct and you imagine yourself in it, I know it gives me the shudders anyway. In hell you are abandoned by God to be blunt.

Of course other religions have different views and even other Christians have different views, this is just one of many views that exist, even I have a few views of how it could be.

hairyheretic

Medina wrote:

I think its important to mention that Christians themselves can end up in hell according to some Christian faiths such as Catholicism. I know other Christian faiths say that Christians cannot end up in hell if they believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God..that's really a separate debate

I'd like you to expand on that, if you would. Surely if someone is christian but sins unrepentedly throughout their life then they will end up in hell?

Or do they believe that by being christian they're free to do whatever they want, regardless?

What do these other sects believe happens to 'bad' christians?

Slav

Ayla wrote:

If someone during their life decides to live a non-Christian life, and they are content to live without God's presence, then would Hell (being seperated from God eternally) be any different then their life on Earth?

Yes it would, and I think this belief is shared among the majority (if not all) of Christian confessions (please correct me if I’m wrong). There are at least two reasons:

1. The life after death is different as the soul is separated with the flesh. Carnal desires could play the most important role during intravital. Without the usual carnal acts life is obviously different.

2. As far a the spiritual life is concerned the Christians also belief that after death the Truth is finally shown to the soul, i.e. the soul faces God. If during his/her mortal life that person’s spiritual life was far away from God then after death it cannot be the same.

ikoonman

The Bible says that in hell one will endure endless torture and pain, suffering and the gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12). I am pretty sure that that cannot be a comparison between the seperation of man and God in relation to heaven and hell. (earth=no eternal pain, hell=eternal pain)

I think, more importantly, the difference between hell and earth is that on earth one still have the time to make a choice, but in hell it's too late. (The Rich Man and Lazarus, Luke 16:19:31)

additionally, on earth inflicted pain would be mostly in the flesh. but in hell, pain is inflicted on the soul (as we leave our bodies behind), and i don't think that pain can be described.

i hope i understood your point correctly

T-1111111111111

hairyheretic wrote:

I'd like you to expand on that, if you would. Surely if someone is christian but sins unrepentedly throughout their life then they will end up in hell?

Or do they believe that by being christian they're free to do whatever they want, regardless?

What do these other sects believe happens to 'bad' christians?

I think BrianC could give u a good clarification on that issue - he says its enuff to accept Jesus us your private saviour or something like that, Brian correct me if Im wrong.

However, that might lead u straight to Hell, for good.

Medina

hairyheretic wrote:

I'd like you to expand on that, if you would. Surely if someone is christian but sins unrepentedly throughout their life then they will end up in hell?

I would agree with you hairyheretic.
I don't think though that BrianCalgary would disagree with you, I'd say he agrees with you because you put the word 'unrepentedly' in the sentence. I think he would say that accepting Jesus as your saviour you would automatically feel repentence for your bad deeds.

But thats me putting words in his mouth, which could be totally off course.

It really boils down to this question then..if you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour but you don't repent for your sins, then can you really claim to 'accept Jesus Christ'?

Slav

hairyheretic wrote:

Or do they believe that by being christian they're free to do whatever they want, regardless?

When talking about Protestant beliefs it might look right from the outside however the way it’s phrased contradicts with the moral values they promote. They say it’s not enough to declare oneself a Christian; instead one should accept the Christ as a Survivor and accept His sacrifice. Jesus Christ was crucified for all our sins and all we need to do for our sins to be redeemed is to accept His sacrifice.

This is one of the points that divides the Christian world: Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics consider it as a heresy. According to them, the act of acceptance of the Christ’s sacrifice is not that easy at all. It’s near to impossible for a human to live without committing sins therefore nailing the Son of God to His Cross with every single sin, no matter how big or small it might look.

hairyheretic wrote:

What do these other sects believe happens to 'bad' christians?

Are you talking about those Christians who believe that being a Christian does not automatically book you a place in the Kingdom of Heaven? In short, the same thing that will happen to 'good' Christians and non-Christians: they will face God for His judgement. Roman Catholics however have also the concept of Purgatory (which is another thing that divides the Christian world)

ikoonman

hairyheretic wrote:

Surely if someone is christian but sins unrepentedly throughout their life then they will end up in hell?

Definitely yes. The Bible is also quiet clear on this - see Lev 5:17 and also, where believers calls on Jesus, but he replies that He doesn't know them (sorry cannot find the verse)

BrianCalgary

Hell is a place that is described in Bible. It is described as a lake of fire, a place of eternal torment with gnashing of teeth, etc.

Heaven is described with wonderful beauty and laughter.

Hell is an eternal seperation from God. When I look at our society today, and it is a mess, Lebanon, famine, AIDs, I could go on. Our society kicked God out long ago, we said we didn't need or want Him. I think that He is honouring our request as society falls deeper and deeper into the mire. I think God is showing us what it is like withour Him around. So I think the comparison to earth is a fair one. People reaction is to curse God, prophesied in Revelation.

Acceptance of Christ as your saviour with a heart to serve Him will get you into communion with God which will be complete upon your passing from this world.

Those who reject Christ will get their wish which is an eternal seperation from Him, and God lets us know what it is like.

And HH I agree with ikoonman. I teach in my Sunday School class that there are those sitting in our pews who will be surprised because they are Sunday morning Christians.

Trinity

This is very much a personal opinion, i believe that while on earth, if we sin, we must repent before being accepted back by God.

I do not believe it is enough to say you are sorry at the end of your life, you must show it while living, and on earth we are given enough time to do that and live as good people and show kindness to others.

if we are 'truly' sorry and repent then generally you do not sin again.

i think it would be all too easy for everyone to be accepted to heaven on our death beds just by saying i am sorry and i accept god as my saviour.

in that case we could live life as we wanted, sinning repeatedly without cause for concern and all it takes for forgiveness at the end of our life is to say a sentence?

I hope that makes sense

Slav

ikoonman wrote:

Definitely yes. The Bible is also quiet clear on this - see Lev 5:17 and also, where believers calls on Jesus, but he replies that He doesn't know them (sorry cannot find the verse)

Many Protestants would disagree claiming that Leviticus was written before the Christ’s sacrifice and "for many be called, but few chosen" (it’s Matthew 20:16) talks about the "called" – those who heard the message of Gospels and the "chosen" – those who accepted it.

More orthodox believers might also disagree saying that we can’t speculate on that because this is strictly speaking not our business but it’s purely up to God to save a human soul or not. They might also mention that the life of the penitent thief most likely fits the formula "sins unrepentedly throughout their life" but he just accepted Christ (note that Bible does not say that he repented for his sins) and yet was saved (Luke 23:43). Probably it was enough for him considering his personal circumstances at the time as he had just few hour of his life left and after all he was not in the most comfortable position.

BrianCalgary

Trinity1 wrote:

This is very much a personal opinion, i believe that while on earth, if we sin, we must repent before being accepted back by God.

I do not believe it is enough to say you are sorry at the end of your life, you must show it while living, and on earth we are given enough time to do that and live as good people and show kindness to others.

if we are 'truly' sorry and repent then generally you do not sin again.

i think it would be all too easy for everyone to be accepted to heaven on our death beds just by saying i am sorry and i accept god as my saviour.

in that case we could live life as we wanted, sinning repeatedly without cause for concern and all it takes for forgiveness at the end of our life is to say a sentence?

I hope that makes sense

This all makes perfectly good sense. The issue on the attitude of waiting until your death bed, what happens if you go quickly without having the chance at repentance? That person would lose th ebet.

Trinity

BrianCalgary wrote:

This all makes perfectly good sense. The issue on the attitude of waiting until your death bed, what happens if you go quickly without having the chance at repentance? That person would lose th ebet.

exactly! which leads to the other issue of i am sure God knows who exactly is playing the betting games are those who are truly repentant and show so in their actions while on earth!

if one has a bad heart (is a bad person) it is generally shown in all areas of their lives in their actions and what they do unto others (regularly)

if one is a good person and commits one sin through an act of weakness or whatever the case may be and truly is remorseful afterwards, now theres a big difference.

I call it a curriculum vitae lol.

a record of what kind of person you are through out your life. No one is perfect but a good heart shines through!

robindch

> The issue on the attitude of waiting until your death bed, what happens
> if you go quickly without having the chance at repentance?

What about saying: "In the event that I die before I let god know that I accept christ as my saviour, I wish to let god know now that I accept christ as my saviour"?

Shouldn't that do the trick? According to dogma, god knows when you're going to die and under what conditions, so he'll know which part of the sentence to apply.

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

Hell is an eternal seperation from God. When I look at our society today, and it is a mess, Lebanon, famine, AIDs, I could go on. Our society kicked God out long ago, we said we didn't need or want Him. I think that He is honouring our request as society falls deeper and deeper into the mire. I think God is showing us what it is like withour Him around. So I think the comparison to earth is a fair one. People reaction is to curse God, prophesied in Revelation.

The modern world is no worse than any other era. To claim that we are getting worse is baseless. People from every generation have said something similar to what you wrote and yet nothing got any worse.
How much worse were the 1230s than the 790s? There is no way of judging.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

I teach in my Sunday School class that there are those sitting in our pews who will be surprised because they are Sunday morning Christians.

I don't understand. What have they done wrong? Have they not accepted Christ as their Saviour?

aidan24326

Ayla wrote:

My question is this...if Hell punishes non-Christians by forcing them to endure eternal seperation from God, how is that different from their life on Earth?

Let me explain...If someone during their life decides to live a non-Christian life, and they are content to live without God's presence, then would Hell (being seperated from God eternally) be any different then their life on Earth? Is there more to the definition of Hell that I am unaware of?

Now I wouldn't claim to be an expert in the matter but isn't the biblical description of hell more about eternal suffering and torment, rather than just an eternal separation from God? More something like this:

Robert Ingersoll

No human being has imagination enough to conceive of this infinite horror.
All that the human race has suffered in war and want, in pestilence and famine, in fire and flood, all the pangs and pains of every disease and every death, all of this is nothing compared with the agonies to be endured by one lost soul in hell

?

UU

I have another issue that i may have presented forward before but I will continuously repeat it until I get worthly answers.

Three situations:

1. What if a certain person is non-christian and was born somewhere like on a Pacific island, had never left the place, nobody knew of christianity in that part of the world and lived there their entire life and died as a non-christian. How is that the person's fault? Why should he/she go to hell just because of where he/she was geographically positioned on Earth? What is he or she led a good life? Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?

2. This is a much more serious question and demands our full attention. What if a person is born with a severe mental disability which prevents him/her from having the normal human functioning to believe in stuff? This would mean that he/she wouldn't understand religion and Christianity and wouldn't be able to accept christ as his/her saviour and according to the bible he/she is going to hell. It's not his/her fault that he/she is born so severly disabled. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies?

3. And what if a baby dies before birth or just after birth? They too can't accept Christ as his/her saviour because his/her mental ability is not yet developed. It's not the baby's fault he/she died at such a young age. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?

Try and give intelligent answers. If you state something, then the bible is there to support your statement.

Medina

Hi UU
From the Catholic church point of view, I was very interested myself to see what the answers are, and if they are as I thought they were.

Well I didn't go looking in the Bible because I thought the Catechism would be a good source of info of this nature.

I have pasted in passages I found in two separate places from chapters on SIN and BAPTISM.

I think the passages on SIN can probably answer your first two questions and the passage on baptism the third question.

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN
1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.



Section Two, Chapter 1.
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

I was told the catholic church was fine with people who hadn't heard of christianity but lived good lives ...

UU

Well this isn't about the Catholic Church, this is about Christianity in general. What does the bible say about the three questions I asked in my last post? If Christianity is based on the bible, then they are the only valid answers. Any Cathecism, etc. is irrelevent.

Medina

UU, do you see all the numbers beside the sentences in the passages from the Catechism I posted there for you?

Well those numbers are references to an index of sources. The bible is among them.


Baptism
64 Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.

The whole article on Sin refers to the following sources, some from the bible some not (some of these references are in the passage I posted)

113 Cf. Lk 15.
114 Mt 1:21.
115 Mt 26:28.
116 St. Augustine, Sermo 169,11,13:PL 38,923.
117 1 Jn 8-9.
118 Rom 5:20.
119 Rom 5:21.
120 John Paul II, DeV 31 § 2.
121 St. Augustine, Contra Faustum 22:PL 42,418; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,71,6.
122 Ps 51:4.
123 Gen 3:5.
124 St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 14,28:PL 41,436.
125 Cf. Phil 2:6-9.
126 Cf. Jn 14:30.
127 Gal 5:19-21; cf. Rom 1:28-32; 1 Cor 9-10; Eph 5:3-5; Col 3:5-8; 1 Tim 9-10; 2 Tim 2-5.
128 Mt 15:19-20.
129 Cf. 1 Jn 5:16-17.
130 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,88,2, corp. art.
131 RP 17 § 12.
132 Mk 10:19.
133 Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.
134 John Paul II, RP 17 § 9.
135 St. Augustine, In ep. Jo. 1,6:PL 35,1982.
136 Mt 12:31; cf. Mk 3:29; Lk 12:10.
137 Cf. John Paul II, DeV 46.
138 Cf. St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, 31,45:PL 76,621A.
139 Cf. Gen 4:10.
140 Cf. Gen 18:20; 19:13.
141 Cf. Ex 3:7-10.
142 Cf. Ex 20:20-22.
143 Cf. Deut 24:14-15; Jas 5:4.
144 John Paul II, RP 16.


Don't be lazy now and look up the references yourself, I feel like I'm spoon-feeding you

kiffer

aidan24326 wrote:

Now I wouldn't claim to be an expert in the matter but isn't the biblical description of hell more about eternal suffering and torment, rather than just an eternal separation from God? More something like this:

Robert Ingersoll


?

even if the happy clappy christians are right and Hell is "being outside the presence of God", it must also be what it is described as in the Bible... that is a place of Pain and Torture...

I think that many people have started using this softer version hell because they can't interanly justify a loving and forgiving god with the hell described in the bible.

Rev Hellfire

I remember having a chat about hell once with a priest and his view on the subject was quite interesting.

One of the more interesting points he had was that god does not damn people to hell, people do it to themselves. Also that your spell in hell does not have to be permanent and that this is true for Satan as well. He held the view (and one I would share) that Satan could at any point return to heaven but that it is his pride which prevents him not some barrier raised by god (a god which if we remember is all forgiving).

Hell you see is not a place but rather a state of mind. An analogy of it might be arriving in at a house and knowing there is a party on, but one with an open door, you simply have to enter. If heaven is this party, then hell would be you standing outside, knowing you could go in but finding yourself unable to do so. Maybe you’re too shy, maybe you lack the courage to approach, maybe you’ll not fit in, etc. You know you can enter but are unable to by your own actions and perceived failings. So you stay outside, envious of those who can and do.

Dades

UU wrote:

Well this isn't about the Catholic Church, this is about Christianity in general. What does the bible say about the three questions I asked in my last post? If Christianity is based on the bible, then they are the only valid answers. Any Cathecism, etc. is irrelevent.

The bible is hardly going to comment on pacific islands considering the people who wrote it didn't even know the pacific existed. The world was a smaller (flatter) place back then meaning it was thought that people turning from God were assumed to have done so willfully.

UU I posed the very same question on this forum some time back. I was told (by wolfsbane I think...) that even lone desert island dwellers are willfully ignorant of God if they don't accept him, as God has made enough clues to his existance that if you don't see them - you don't want to.

I'd imagine this is a pretty hardline view not shared by most Christians.

In theory Hell has to be described as something really bad. It exists to frighten people into doing whatever it takes to to avoid it.

UU

The Atheist wrote:

In theory Hell has to be described as something really bad. It exists to frighten people into doing whatever it takes to to avoid it.

Yes. I agree with your statement. I think hell is just used by religious leaders to scare them so that they can gain power and control over them.

aidan24326

kiffer wrote:

even if the happy clappy christians are right and Hell is "being outside the presence of God", it must also be what it is described as in the Bible... that is a place of Pain and Torture...

yes that's what I said.

I think that many people have started using this softer version hell because they can't interanly justify a loving and forgiving god with the hell described in the bible.

That is true. But those people can't have it both ways. Either you believe what's in the bible or you don't. And the bible quite clearly depicts hell as a place of eternal torment and suffering. Now as Rev Hellfire's post shows, the bible version of hell might be a bit simplistic. But then so is most of the rest of the bible also. Softening it down to 'a separation from God' is something of a cop-out. And is it just an excercise in convenient semantics designed to hide from the real meaning of what hell is supposed to be, and the true nature, according to the bible, of the 'all-loving and forgiving God'?

I would be interested to know how those with strong christian faith reconcile this problem in their own minds, and the contradiction of an omniscient and omnibenevolent God sentencing some of his creations to an (possibly) eternal
nightmare in the worst prison imaginable? Is the bible simply exaggerating the idea of hell? Surely a God of tremendous love would never allow such horrors?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

I don't understand. What have they done wrong? Have they not accepted Christ as their Saviour?

Right, they haven't.

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

The modern world is no worse than any other era. To claim that we are getting worse is baseless. People from every generation have said something similar to what you wrote and yet nothing got any worse.
How much worse were the 1230s than the 790s? There is no way of judging.

I agree. What we do see throughout history is periods of revival, where God is invited into society and prosperity occurs, not meaning financil only, then when the society is prospering it decides it no longer needs God and turfs Him.

A friend once said to me, our sins are the same our weapons are just more sophisticated.

BrianCalgary

aidan24326 wrote:

Now I wouldn't claim to be an expert in the matter but isn't the biblical description of hell more about eternal suffering and torment, rather than just an eternal separation from God?

The suffering and torment is as a result of the seperation from God.

BrianCalgary

aidan24326 wrote:

yes that's what I said.

That is true. But those people can't have it both ways. Either you believe what's in the bible or you don't. And the bible quite clearly depicts hell as a place of eternal torment and suffering. Now as Rev Hellfire's post shows, the bible version of hell might be a bit simplistic. But then so is most of the rest of the bible also. Softening it down to 'a separation from God' is something of a cop-out. And is it just an excercise in convenient semantics designed to hide from the real meaning of what hell is supposed to be, and the true nature, according to the bible, of the 'all-loving and forgiving God'?

I don't think it is semantics. It is a way of explaining the truth that since you have rejected God, you get your wish, which is consistent with the idea of free will.

In having said that, we can describe it for you, and will do so. Jesus has described it quite well. I know people who think that Hell will be preferable becaus ethat is where the partiers are going and it would be more fun. On closer examination between the two, is Hell really a party place? or is Heaven the party place?

aidan24326 wrote:

I would be interested to know how those with strong christian faith reconcile this problem in their own minds, and the contradiction of an omniscient and omnibenevolent God sentencing some of his creations to an (possibly) eternal
nightmare in the worst prison imaginable? Is the bible simply exaggerating the idea of hell? Surely a God of tremendous love would never allow such horrors?

Here Aidan is it, God loves His creation so much that He came down from Heaven and took all of our sin upon Himself, in order for us to have full relationship with Him. God does not sentence anyone to Hell, people sentence themselves. They choose to go there, The Bible attempte to tell people what the consequences of that particular choice is, and they still reject Christ. So God doesn't sentance anyone.

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

Yes. I agree with your statement. I think hell is just used by religious leaders to scare them so that they can gain power and control over them.

Totally unreasonable conclusion here UU. I won't deny that there are times in church history when this has occured.

But now? I can have a discussion with a church pastor who is big on the Hell's fire and brimstone method of salvation. Let's say it works with me. But I decide to go to a different church or denomination? That particular pastor has no control over me whatsoever.

In my immediate neighbourhood I have the choice of at least 5 churches, all of different denominations, that I could attend.

T-1111111111111

BrianCalgary wrote:

The suffering and torment is as a result of the seperation from God.

Not really. Hell is real. Difference between the afterlife and this life is (approx) like the difference between this life and a foggy dream. Fire is real.

BTW, people who never accepted the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and everything else (no way I'm taking about prophet Jesus here, just to make that clear) as their Lord, might not receive His Mercy when they die.
However even they receive this Mercy in this life - He gave them their souls and bodies, He feeds them and gives them a place to live and air to breathe, etc. His Mercy is for every single creature in this life, but after death - that will change, nonbelievers who die as such and who never recognised the Creator as their Lord might not receive His Mercy. Another reason is that they maybe never believed in the afterlife.
And the Creator is not unjust to them - the fire is not because He wants to punish, it's because all people sin, but some repent some don't, and some don't even believe in Almighty God, in Paradise, in Hell, etc.

So we people are being unjust to ourselves, whoever wants salvation should first acknowledge that there is One and only One Lord Creator, then pray to Him and ask for forgiveness and they do try their best to stay on the Right Path and not to do the evil things again.

This is the road to salvation in my opinion. Every newborn baby has absolutely no sins. Every soul carries her own sins. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The whole humankind can die, but their death will not bring me salvation. Alleged "death of Jesus" is not logical.
Also, Almighty does not feel pain. God's Mercy goes for everyone, but in order to get it, read above.
Almighty sent His messenger and 100% human Jesus purely to deliver the message, to bring the Gospel - the Good News, to call people on Lord's True Path.
So Jesus delivered the message, some accepted the message, some didn't want to. What is meant by accepting Jesus in the Bible is purely that one acknowledges him as a prophet of Almighty and to accept the Message of Almighty through His prophet and servant Jesus.

None died for you and me and none will.

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

I have another issue that i may have presented forward before but I will continuously repeat it until I get worthly answers.

Three situations:

1. What if a certain person is non-christian and was born somewhere like on a Pacific island, had never left the place, nobody knew of christianity in that part of the world and lived there their entire life and died as a non-christian. How is that the person's fault? Why should he/she go to hell just because of where he/she was geographically positioned on Earth? What is he or she led a good life? Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?.

The Bible speaks of creation being a testimony to God's existence. I would think that if a person truly seeks to live a life as Jesus did, one of humility and servanthood, they could be OK.

UU wrote:

2. This is a much more serious question and demands our full attention. What if a person is born with a severe mental disability which prevents him/her from having the normal human functioning to believe in stuff? This would mean that he/she wouldn't understand religion and Christianity and wouldn't be able to accept christ as his/her saviour and according to the bible he/she is going to hell. It's not his/her fault that he/she is born so severly disabled. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies??.

This person would not be capable of understanding sin nor the need for redemption from it. My opinion, OK.

UU wrote:

3. And what if a baby dies before birth or just after birth? They too can't accept Christ as his/her saviour because his/her mental ability is not yet developed. It's not the baby's fault he/she died at such a young age. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?.

See prior answer.

UU wrote:

Try and give intelligent answers. If you state something, then the bible is there to support your statement.

The Bible does not cover specific answers to these specific questions. The inference is as follows.

We have the commandments given to us by God. One of thereasons is to show us how sinful we really are. As a result of being sinful, we understand the need to have someway to atone for our sins. We know that Jesus came for that purpose. Acceptance of Him removes our sin. Then we have salvation.

If a person isn't aware of their sin, they have no understanding of needing atonement and besides God ould know where thier heart lies.

The question then becomes, now you know who Jesus is, what He stands for, what His purpose is, are you going to accept Him or reject Him?

(Not a rhetorical question)

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

Right, they haven't.

But they think they have, yes?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

But they think they have, yes?

They could. I'm sure that in a congregation of 1100, as my church is, there would be many different scenarios.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

They could. I'm sure that in a congregation of 1100, as my church is, there would be many different scenarios.

Brian, I would like to avoid another protracted interrogation here. You can avoid that by elaborating a little - being a bit more clear.

You say the some of the congregation will be "surprised", by which I took you to mean that they believe that they will be saved, but in fact will not be. How can this be possible? What else is required to be saved aside from accepting Christ as their saviour? If that is all that is required, and they believe that they will be saved, then they must have accepted Christ. As you have said before, only they can really know. How can you know that they are wrong? I am confused.

T-1111111111111

Sapien wrote:

Brian, I would like to avoid another protracted interrogation here. You can avoid that by elaborating a little - being a bit more clear.

You say the some of the congregation will be "surprised", by which I took you to mean that they believe that they will be saved, but in fact will not be. How can this be possible? What else is required to be saved aside from accepting Christ as their saviour? If that is all that is required, and they believe that they will be saved, then they must have accepted Christ. As you have said before, only they can really know. How can you know that they are wrong? I am confused.

Im confused too. What if people accept Jesus (to be what Christians believe he was/is) and then end up in Hell? Hmmm...what Brian is suggesting it seems to be enough to accept Jesus, everything else is then ok, you go to Heaven..is that so?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Brian, I would like to avoid another protracted interrogation here. You can avoid that by elaborating a little - being a bit more clear.

You say the some of the congregation will be "surprised", by which I took you to mean that they believe that they will be saved, but in fact will not be. How can this be possible? What else is required to be saved aside from accepting Christ as their saviour? If that is all that is required, and they believe that they will be saved, then they must have accepted Christ. As you have said before, only they can really know. How can you know that they are wrong? I am confused.

I'll try here Sapien.

When looking at a church, any church, you have people attending who are there to worship God, and intend to live their Christian lives 7 days a week. They come to hear a message in the desire of coming to know God better and to be closer to Him.

Then you have people who come out of a sense of duty, those who desire no relationship with hrist but feel that they are gaining points with 'the man upstairs' and that this will get them into Heaven, as long as they do good and don't harm anyone they should be OK.

Then you have the crowd who comes, listens to the message, thinks it's all fine and dandy and then get to work on Monday am and don't care who they step on to move up the ladder.

The bottom two groups are in trouble, their lives are producing no fruit.

But to your point, if someone has accepted Christ as their lLord and saviuor then they will get to Heaven. The problem is that some folks just don't get that concept. They think th elatter two scenarios are enough.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'll try here Sapien.

When looking at a church, any church, you have people attending who are there to worship God, and intend to live their Christian lives 7 days a week. They come to hear a message in the desire of coming to know God better and to be closer to Him.

Then you have people who come out of a sense of duty, those who desire no relationship with hrist but feel that they are gaining points with 'the man upstairs' and that this will get them into Heaven, as long as they do good and don't harm anyone they should be OK.

Then you have the crowd who comes, listens to the message, thinks it's all fine and dandy and then get to work on Monday am and don't care who they step on to move up the ladder.

The bottom two groups are in trouble, their lives are producing no fruit.

But to your point, if someone has accepted Christ as their lLord and saviuor then they will get to Heaven. The problem is that some folks just don't get that concept. They think th elatter two scenarios are enough.

Are you saying that these latter two groups have not accepted Christ?

Presumably, being part of the same congregation as you, they believe the same thing with regard to salvation - they believe that one must accept Christ, and then eternity in Heaven is assured. Is that correct - they all believe that? That is a fundamental teaching of your Church? If so, how can they and why would they attend your church and not accept Christ?

Linking back to the "Just not on" thread - what group would FullOF**IT's father fit into? He did not attend any Church.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Are you saying that these latter two groups have not accepted Christ? .

Possibly not. Jesus talks about building your treasures in Heaven. The latter groups may have accepted Christ, but they aren't building their treasures. The last group would be in trouble because they are doing a very poor job of representing Christ.

Sapien wrote:

Presumably, being part of the same congregation as you, they believe the same thing with regard to salvation - they believe that one must accept Christ, and then eternity in Heaven is assured. Is that correct - they all believe that? That is a fundamental teaching of your Church? If so, how can they and why would they attend your church and not accept Christ?.

We can not make that presumption. They may just like the music, it may make them feel good, but they may not accept all the doctrine or dogma of our church or Christianity.

Sapien wrote:

Linking back to the "Just not on" thread - what group would FullOF**IT's father fit into? He did not attend any Church.

Neither of the above because it appears as though he didn't attend any church.

Which begs the question, can you be saved outside of a church?

Yes. because the church doesn't give salvation, Christ does. I would say that being a Christian and not attending a church does not provide an environment for spiritual growth and fellowship.

Sapien

Sapien wrote:

Are you saying that these latter two groups have not accepted Christ?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Possibly not. Jesus talks about building your treasures in Heaven. The latter groups may have accepted Christ, but they aren't building their treasures. The last group would be in trouble because they are doing a very poor job of representing Christ.

So there is more to it that simply accepting Christ? What effect does treasure-building have on one's ultimate fate? What difference does one's representation of Christ make? If one has accpeted Christ, can it make a difference to one's salvation?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

So there is more to it that simply accepting Christ? ?

Nope.

Sapien wrote:

What effect does treasure-building have on one's ultimate fate? ?

nothing. One's ultimate fate is decided by acceptance of Christ. Treasure building brings one's focus into serving Christ as opposed to serving self.

Sapien wrote:

What difference does one's representation of Christ make? If one has accpeted Christ, can it make a difference to one's salvation?

No. Because if you have truly accepted Christ the result is a proper representation of Him. I don't think you can accept Him, invite Him into your life and then turn around and intentionally hurt others.

I am trying to understand what it is you're looking for so that I can answer you satisfactorily but you keep going around in circles without stating a position or your own understanding of salvation.

Salvation is found through Christ alone, there is no other way. He will know who is and who isn't saved as He only knows somone's heart.

I can sit here and honestly say that I look forward to full communion with Christ. I know I am saved as a result of my acceptance of Him as my Lord and saviour. I honestly desire to serve Him, although I do screw up, both in what I do and in what I fail to do.

I feel as though you are attempting, as you did on the other board, to try and get me to pass judgement on people I don't know.

I don't get that you fail to understand Christianities simple message: accept Christ, invite Him into your life. He then sends the Holy Spirit to work in your life to bring about fruit. He gives you tasks that are challenging and enjoyable that serve others.

T-1111111111111

BrianCalgary wrote:

Salvation is found through Christ alone, there is no other way. He will know who is and who isn't saved as He only knows somone's heart.

Guys, I dont want to be rude to break this conversation, but Brian, how can Jesus know what's in people's heart when he didnt even know that that tree didnt have fruits? And then he cursed the tree... (what Im trying to say is that Jesus, no matter how much I love him and respect him, simply did/does not know what's in people hearts and minds. Or you dont believe in the whole Bible, but just in the verses that suit you?)

PS I honestly dont believe that that's what he did anyway.

wolfsbane

adrian24326 said:

My question is this...if Hell punishes non-Christians by forcing them to endure eternal seperation from God, how is that different from their life on Earth?

Let me explain...If someone during their life decides to live a non-Christian life, and they are content to live without God's presence, then would Hell (being seperated from God eternally) be any different then their life on Earth? Is there more to the definition of Hell that I am unaware of?

Apologies to the other posters for going back to the original post. Some of you dealt with some of what I'm going to say, but for the sake of time I'll not interact with that.

Separation from God in this life is nothing compared to what it will be in the next. Today all enjoy so much good from Him, even in our unbelief. Our good health and other circumstances are from Him. In the next world, all will be gone. Torment, away from all that is holy, righteous and good. It is described in terms of a lake of fire, the outer darkness, where the worm does not die nor is the fire quenched.

It is not a matter of merely going you own way, but to be stripped of everything that is pleasant, and to be inflicted with God's wrath as an ever-consuming fire.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

nothing. One's ultimate fate is decided by acceptance of Christ. Treasure building brings one's focus into serving Christ as opposed to serving self.

Then what is the relevance of this treasure building? You cited it in relation to the latter two categories you defined, to explain why they might "be in trouble", or "be surprised". I now fail to see why you brought it up.

BrianCalgary wrote:

No. Because if you have truly accepted Christ the result is a proper representation of Him. I don't think you can accept Him, invite Him into your life and then turn around and intentionally hurt others.

So you can tell if someone has accepted Christ - from their actions. If someone acts in an evil manner, you can detect that they have not accepted Christ? This has not been clear from what you have said previously. It is possible that it would be equally unclear to a person who wishes to accept Christ. It is possible that a person could accept Christ, and not realise that they were supposed to follow it up with a particular kind of behaviour. What I'm driving at is - is it true that it is not in fact true that one merely has to accept Christ? One must also know certain rules and obey them.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I am trying to understand what it is you're looking for so that I can answer you satisfactorily but you keep going around in circles...

Once again Brian, I see inconsistencies and contradictions in what you say. I am trying to understand - to determine whether you actually do not have a coherent belief system, rather a collection of unrelated and unintegrated beliefs; whether you really understand what you claim to believe; or whether you are expressing yourself in an unclear way.

I still believe that your statement that certain people in your church will be "surprised" contradicts your previously described opinions on the requirements for salvation. If a person believes him/herself to be saved, they must be. If they believe themselves to have accepted Christ, they have. If this is not the case, you have not explained sufficiently well.

I appreciate your patience

BrianCalgary wrote:

... without stating a position or your own understanding of salvation.

I presumed it was clear, Brian, but I do not believe in salvation. Or damnation. Or Christ.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Salvation is found through Christ alone, there is no other way. He will know who is and who isn't saved as He only knows somone's heart.

As well as the person him/herself?

BrianCalgary wrote:

I can sit here and honestly say that I look forward to full communion with Christ. I know I am saved as a result of my acceptance of Him as my Lord and saviour. I honestly desire to serve Him, although I do screw up, both in what I do and in what I fail to do.

How can you be certain that you will not be "surprised", like these other people you describe?

BrianCalgary wrote:

I feel as though you are attempting, as you did on the other board, to try and get me to pass judgement on people I don't know.

Brian - you already did that before I entered the thread. In fact, I was amazed that, in light of our previous exchange discussion, you would again so readily pass judgement:

"I teach in my Sunday School class that there are those sitting in our pews who will be surprised because they are Sunday morning Christians."

BrianCalgary wrote:

I don't get that you fail to understand Christianities simple message: accept Christ, invite Him into your life. He then sends the Holy Spirit to work in your life to bring about fruit. He gives you tasks that are challenging and enjoyable that serve others.

This message is neither universal among all versions of Christianity, nor is it internally consistent. You spend a lot of time saying that all that is required is acceptance of Christ. Then you introduce other factors, such as these "tasks". I am trying to understand where they fit in. It would seem that they have nothing to do with salvation, which is already secured. It appears that accepting Christ may entail more than simply "inviting Him in", but requires performing tasks and obeying rules. It all becomes increasingly complicated. It begins to seem that your "simple message" is in fact a simplification, an illusion, which conceals something much more demanding. You introduce the Holy Spirit. What does this Spirit do. Does it come to all who accept Christ? Does it always work?

BrianCalgary

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Guys, I dont want to be rude to break this conversation, but Brian, how can Jesus know what's in people's heart when he didnt even know that that tree didnt have fruits? And then he cursed the tree... (what Im trying to say is that Jesus, no matter how much I love him and respect him, simply did/does not know what's in people hearts and minds. Or you dont believe in the whole Bible, but just in the verses that suit you?)

PS I honestly dont believe that that's what he did anyway.

not being rude. Let's look at the fig tree incident:

Matthew 21:18-22
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

First of all it never says that Jesus didn't know it had no fruit. It says: He went to the tree, and found it with no fruit.

I can go into my backyard and write:
Brian went to the Saskatoon berry bush and found it had no berries and just leaves.

In fact I look at it everyday and wonder why it didn't have a crop this year, when I was looking forward to the crop.

You have to look at the result of this exchange. Jesus did this knowing it would have no fruit, knowing He could make it wither, and knowing that He could use it as an illustration of faith to His followers.

i find it interesting that you use this as a proof that Jesus was not God, by claiming He didn't know the condition of the fig tree, when the passage makes no such statement.

The you miss the part when He makes th etree wither, who else could do that but God?

aidan24326

BrianCalgary wrote:

I don't think it is semantics. It is a way of explaining the truth that since you have rejected God, you get your wish, which is consistent with the idea of free will

It is semantics. There are countless examples in human language of how we use such semantic 'softening' to hide ourselves from certain realities. Now I don't believe in the idea of hell anyway, so it makes no odds to me. But I can't see how you'd be any more separated from God in the next life than you are in this. How exactly are you connected to God in this life? What is this 'full relationship that you have with him? I'm sorry but the idea that an all-powerful entity responds to your prayers is utterly ludicrous. Some very basic logical thought shows this to be impossible in the way that most christians believe it. Now if your God is communicating to you on some telepathic level that's different. The idea of free will is impossible to define anyway, once you have the illusion of free will you effectively have free will, but that's another issue.

In having said that, we can describe it for you, and will do so. Jesus has described it quite well. I know people who think that Hell will be preferable becaus ethat is where the partiers are going and it would be more fun. On closer examination between the two, is Hell really a party place? or is Heaven the party place?

Go on, describe your idea of 'hell' and why you think such a concept is even necessary other than to rule by instilling fear into your subjects. I do not believe in the God of the bible, neither do I believe in hell, yet I live what I would consider to be a life based on an empathetic morality, a compassionate attitude towards my fellow humans, and other creatures as much as possible, and which certainly incorporates at least some of what is considered to be christian morality. However I do not need fear of fire and brimstone to compel me to live my life in such a way. The concept of hell is entirely unnecessary, and only goes back to the old OT idea of a jealous and petulant God who needs 'his' ego massaged.

Here Aidan is it, God loves His creation so much that He came down from Heaven and took all of our sin upon Himself, in order for us to have full relationship with Him. God does not sentence anyone to Hell, people sentence themselves. They choose to go there, The Bible attempted to tell people what the consequences of that particular choice is, and they still reject Christ. So God doesn't sentance anyone.

You need to consider again what the words 'omniscient' (all-knowing) 'omnipotent' (all-powerful) and 'omnibenevolent' (perfect, all-goodness) actually mean.

Ok. So let's say I'm going to hell because I've rejected Jesus Christ as my saviour, and rejected the biblical God. Grounds for a long stretch in cell block hell according to catholic doctrine (my birth religion). But if God is omniscient then he knew I was going to hell. So why create me at all? If he is omnibenevolent why allow the evil in the world at all? A perfect all-loving God creates a volatile world littered with cruel nasty beings who delight in killing each other? Then allows them to burn in hell despite their imperfections being the work of his shoddy design? Surely an omnipotent God wouldn't allow himself to be embarrased by the glaring faults in his own work?

If this God 'loves his creation so much', as you say, he has a pretty odd way of showing it to many of the people who populate this world. I'd like to see you tell the starving and bereft-of-hope people in countries like Ethiopa and Sudan that their God 'loves' them. Or the thousands of Palestinians displaced and persecuted by the Jews because God promised them the lands of Israel. Or the Lebanese mothers who are grieving for very similiar reasons. Or how about all of those people who are tortured and persecuted every day in the name of this 'God' who you assure me loves us all dearly. Either he's omniscient OR omnibenevolent, he cannot be both. And if he's both then he's not omnipotent, which would render him incapable of being the creator in the first place, kind of a necessary qualification for one to be conferred with the title of 'God'.
I'm just wondering how you manage to fit all this in with your beliefs? There are glaring contradictions.

wolfsbane

UU said:

I have another issue that i may have presented forward before but I will continuously repeat it until I get worthly answers.

I'll do my best.:)

Three situations:

1. What if a certain person is non-christian and was born somewhere like on a Pacific island, had never left the place, nobody knew of christianity in that part of the world and lived there their entire life and died as a non-christian. How is that the person's fault? Why should he/she go to hell just because of where he/she was geographically positioned on Earth? What is he or she led a good life? Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?

The is no such person as one who led a good life - in God's sight. The heathen who never hears the gospel and the heathen who hears it week by week in the open-air preaching or in a church, both go to hell for their sins. The latter has worse sins, because he heard the gospel and refused it.

2. This is a much more serious question and demands our full attention. What if a person is born with a severe mental disability which prevents him/her from having the normal human functioning to believe in stuff? This would mean that he/she wouldn't understand religion and Christianity and wouldn't be able to accept christ as his/her saviour and according to the bible he/she is going to hell. It's not his/her fault that he/she is born so severly disabled. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies?

3. And what if a baby dies before birth or just after birth? They too can't accept Christ as his/her saviour because his/her mental ability is not yet developed. It's not the baby's fault he/she died at such a young age. Why should he/she suffer endless torment when he or she dies, according to the bible?

I put these two together, for they are really the same: the person is incapable of expressing their thoughts. Note I did not say they were incapable of thoughts, just of not expressing them. They immaturity or deformity of the brain does not mean their spirits are immature or deformed.

The question then arises as to whether the individual is shut off from faith because he cannot hear the gospel. I say no, for God is able to directly address their spirit. An example: John the Baptist in his mother's womb jumped for joy at hearing the voice of his Saviour's mother.

Salvation is of the Lord. He gives faith to those whom He has chosen from eternity past. Their mental ability is not an issue.

BrianCalgary

Hey Sapien

Salvation is obtained by accepting Christ, bottom line.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

Works comes about as a result of your desire to live the life that God has planned for you.
Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

A bit on the role of the Holy Spirit:
Romans 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.