RBPP Filiming requests

Boru.

Hey guys, in trying to answer the quesitons that come my way, (and I really do appreciate the oppertunity to explain the differnt aspects of my system) I often find myslef saying, man I wish I could show them what I mean.

I know not everyone can make it to a class or drop by and chat about differnet apporaches and stlyes, so what I poropse is that if people have been confused about a particular technique or drill, like in ground fighting or someone of the knife stuff, post your request and I'll see if I can film it and throw it up for you guys to look at.

That way you will be able to see what I often explain very poorly.

judomick

when are the groundfighting classes?

Millionaire

that would be a good idea Paul.

I am curious about the Jim W approach. I have seen some of his knife and ground , mixed in with other stuff.

However I was interested in seeing his striking also.

I know he was a JKD man for years, so I was curious, and he seems to borrow alot from the real KM stuff (ok Hard Bap.. lol or whatever...its all same KM to me, israelis told me alot of that was due to km infighting) .

Yeah so please post something!

I think its only fair, if Paul is going to go and spend time doing this, his efforts be treated with respect. sure differing debate is allowed...but slagged or comments without a proper reason or explaniation should not be allowed. Thats only fair.

Tim_Murphy

Hi Boru,

I'd like to see a few clips of your ground fighting stuff. Maybe one clip demonstrating stuff, i.e. striking you way out of a bad position, and then another applying the same material against somebody fighting back, for say maybe a 2 or 3 minute round with you starting in mount?

Budo.Judo.Kev

This would be the point where mola.mola would ask for a clip of boru dressed up as a mugger/terrorist doing random attacks. that would be gas.

but seriously, I'd also be interested in seeing how you work your ground fighting stuff.

Boru.

Right, ground fighting seems to be the favourite. SHould be a good example to showing the differences between what I teach and BJJ. The idea would be to study BJJ and other styles like that and then integrate some of this stuff to that training.

I love that idea about the mugger thing. That would be hilarious. If you're all really nice about it I may demonstrate some technqiues in a full Batman Begins Batsuit.! Oh yeah fullcontact fighting half blind and wiht limited range of motion!

Budo.Judo.Kev

Hmm. interesting.

Baggio...

Boru. wrote:

I'll see if I can film it and throw it up for you guys to look at

That's a very cool idea:cool: , looking forward to it. Fair play...

Cheers,

Bagg.

Budo.Judo.Kev

put a hot bird in it too.

john kavanagh

Boru. wrote:

Right, ground fighting seems to be the favourite. SHould be a good example to showing the differences between what I teach and BJJ. The idea would be to study BJJ and other styles like that and then integrate some of this stuff to that training.

I love that idea about the mugger thing. That would be hilarious. If you're all really nice about it I may demonstrate some technqiues in a full Batman Begins Batsuit.! Oh yeah fullcontact fighting half blind and wiht limited range of motion!

if you like i could come along to the filming and show the BJJ approach?:)

i dont know what you teach so could not teach the differences between BJJ and your stuff - not sure what belt you are in BJJ so you might find it difficult to show the differences, thats why i offer my help:)

Roper

I'd like to see two girls, one dressed as Wonderwoman... hold on, wait a sec which forum am I on?

Budo.Judo.Kev

Can I be a baddie?

Boru.

Judomick, Sorry I took so long to get back to you. The next ground survival course is scheduled for 22nd October in Templeogue.

John, thanks for the offer. I may take you up on that. I'm going to get a few of my students in and do some filiming at the next course or hopefully before. When I post it and if it's up to a standard you would feel comfortable participating in we can certainly organise something.

Roper, dude I know just what you mean. Perhpas you could help me with the casting, I was thinking about this girl...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6vO4-AQVE

and yes Budo.Judo.Kev you cna be a baddie....

Man I can see this going horribly worng...:D

Roper

Boru. wrote:

Roper, dude I know just what you mean. Perhpas you could help me with the casting, I was thinking about this girl...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6vO4-AQVE

and yes Budo.Judo.Kev you cna be a baddie....

Man I can see this going horribly worng...:D

I can see this descending into farce... or porn... possibly both:D There'd want to be a few more women involved though before I sign on the dotted line...

Tim_Murphy

SHould be a good example to showing the differences between what I teach and BJJ

Have you much BJJ training done? Or any other grappling MA?

Clive

If this devolves into porn I want in - but I don't do gay stuff.

It's only gay if you take it though...

Roper

Clive wrote:

It's only gay if you take it though...

Phew! Thats my scout camp experience off my conscience then... I guess I'm lucky we tossed first... a coin I mean...

Boru.

Hi Tim,

I've not done a hell of a lot of BJJ, but I love watching it. BJJ covers a whole lot and it's not like Jim reinvented the wheel with a lot of this stuff but he did change the focus. (Incidentally Jim trained with the Gracies in Brazil). BJJ is WAY more advanced than the stuff I teach. In a grappling contest I wouldn't last five seconds with anyone John spent 10 minutes training. That's why I don't grapple as such in street situation and why I am looking forward to his perspective on these clips.

I have trained in a lot of Judo and Jujitsu but that was more to supplement my skills when I studuied Shotokan Karate.

The reason I think these videos will be helpful in explaining my point of view and where the system is coming from is becasue we focus on ground survival NOT BJJ or grappling arts. The difference being in extracting yourself form a grappling contest as quickly as possible in order to get away. I don't want to grapple with someone who is experienced or inexperienced, I'm not looking to make my opponent tap or take a victory, I'm looking to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. Sometimes that's not an option, in which I case I'm looking to kill him, not subdue him.

I hope these videos will be a learning experience for all, not just to show you guys "this is what we do", but so you can say well this is how we apporach it and why. i 've trained with many guys from BJJ and MMA grapplingb backgrounds and they often remark to me how different it is. Hopefully we will all be able to see clearly the differecnes, if any, when I get them up.


Roper I fear a sausage fest

mark.leonard

I've not done a hell of a lot of BJJ, but I love watching it.

This is a lot like Clive's attitude to gay sex! Ain't that right Clive

(how has this topic not been modded out of sight yet!)

Tim_Murphy

In a grappling contest I wouldn't last five seconds with anyone John spent 10 minutes training.

Honest answer, fair play.

The difference being in extracting yourself form a grappling contest as quickly as possible in order to get away.

Best way to be able to do this is simply to have some actual grappling skills IMO.

Sometimes that's not an option, in which I case I'm looking to kill him, not subdue him.

You'd rather kill somebody rather than say choke them out?

Clive

Well myself and Tom have been on the cover of Gay Times!

Boru.

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Honest answer, fair play.

Best way to be able to do this is simply to have some actual grappling skills IMO.

You'd rather kill somebody rather than say choke them out?

Well perhaps what you'll see in the vids you would classify as grappling skills, I personally don't. Much like some could say trapping and joint manipulations are present in some of the escapes and counters to the chokes and holds. Again I wouldn't classify them as such buit it could be said.

I do have a fair idea of the techniques I'll show though to illustrate this point.

And just as an aside, not to get off topic (that would never happen) I would not risk the time taken to try and choke someone out if they are in a superior position and I am in danger of my life. I wouldn't do it, I am not a competant BJJ practioner, I am going to go for something that works, is extremely easy to apply and will save my life. I will use a lethal force technique (again I stress only if the situation deems it necessary).

For instance in a superior mounted postion with punches and elbows raining down on my head, (which may or may not be bouncing off the parvement), I won't try and grapple for dominance, I wont try to reverse the mount, I will go straight for his eyes or his throat. If I get to them great, if not and he adjusts positoing I can then lever that to an escape.

One of the things to keep in mind here is that this isn't competition, it's not a dojo or training hall and no one is going to step in and say the fight is over. There is a guy, in all likelyhood bigger and stonger than I am and he is trying to severally hurt, or possibly kill me. Of course I'm going to respond with anything that will save my life. I suppose this is wear the distiction in approaches arises. It's not a grappling match, it's ground fighting I won't try and choke him out (let's say he is a rugby player with a huge conditioned neck or something) as his friends come in and start kicking the crap out of my head. I will kill him and get out of there as fast as I can. (Then of course follow the law, report the incident, produce my incident recoleection card etc)

It may be sensationalist, but I always look at it from a perspective off if I know my little brother or sister was going to be bruttaly attacked a week from now, and it was going to the ground would I teach; reversals and a choke, or would I teach him how to gouge the guys eyes out? Eye gouge - easier, faster and more efficent.

Again I'll demonstrate this on the vids.

Miles Long

I'll donate an eye to that video provided you give it to science after...

Baggio...

Boru. wrote:

One of the things to keep in mind here is that this isn't competition, it's not a dojo or training hall and no one is going to step in and say the fight is over.

Totally agree with you there mate,

R.

Budo.Judo.Kev

hehehe,

surely if someone was on topping you raining down strikes you'd either try and bump them off and roll out rather than GRAB THEIR THROAT. What you going to do once you get a reach of their throat? Strangle them James Bond style? You'd want strong fingers and arms for that. And about the face grabbing and shredding, I'd presume they'd just force your hands away from their face and start hitting you harder.

Tim_Murphy

Well perhaps what you'll see in the vids you would classify as grappling skills, I personally don't.

Why? If you go from the ground then getting back standing you are grappling, whether a person knows what they are doing or not doesn't really change that.

I wouldn't do it, I am not a competant BJJ practioner, I am going to go for something that works, is extremely easy to apply and will save my life. I will use a lethal force technique (again I stress only if the situation deems it necessary).
...
I will kill him and get out of there as fast as I can.

So, am I getting this right. You are on the dreaded street. You are mounted by a pumped up rugby player who is punching and elbowing you in the head. You think that you will be able to kill Jonny Rugby from this position?

loz

double post - soz

loz

Boru. wrote:

FoI won't try and choke him out (let's say he is a rugby player with a huge conditioned neck or something)

I can condition my neck ???

( your also a personal trainer right Boru ? - can you explain this anti - tap neck conditioning ? - does the muscle just spread over the throat and arteries like a shield ? )


And to think all this time i've been tapping i could have been neck conditioning!!!!!! - now just condition my elbow-joints and i'll be totally anti-arm-bar

Tim_Murphy

Maybe rudby players are able to hold their breath for a long time so they can't be choked!

judomick

Lads Ladies and Clive, lets just give Boru a chance to put the video's up first hes going out of his way to display some of what he teaches so lets hold off on the comments until we see what it is he does!

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

So, am I getting this right. You are on the dreaded street. You are mounted by a pumped up rugby player who is punching and elbowing you in the head. You think that you will be able to kill Jonny Rugby from this position?

What I would do here is I would drag the rugger bugger to the nearest sauna to cut weight down to 65kg division, cause there is some big lads in the 70kg division . Then I would weight him, to enure he was not more then 3kg over my weight. Then I would let him resume the attack, as all is equal now! (but only if he made the correct weight) :eek:

Its fri day evening... time to take the wee wee a bit! LOL!

john kavanagh

Boru. wrote:

I won't try and choke him out (let's say he is a rugby player with a huge conditioned neck or something)

just as an aside. i'm involved with coaching the leinster rugby squad now and have the opportunity to work with some of the biggest well conditioned athletes i've ever seen.

anyway i'm 5'9" and 70kgs and i was working with a little fella about 6'5" and about 110kgs of athletism. it took me about 3 seconds to choke him out from standing. for those interested i used a wrestling 'snap down' to 'breadbasket' choke.

the bigger the neck the bigger the target;)

anway i do get your point about not 'hanging' around on the ground like in a BJJ match and would advise the same thing myself. i'll come along to that Oct 22nd course, how much is it?

thanks

Tim_Murphy

Its fri day evening... time to take the wee wee a bit! LOL!

Taking the wee wee should be encouraged at any point during the week! It's generally better if it's funny or semi-relevant though

i'm involved with coaching the leinster rugby squad now

What do you do with them?

Baggio...

wrote:

i'll come along to that Oct 22nd course, how much is it?

I presume it's 75 yo yo's same as the rest of the Wagner courses (Is that right Boru?).

Rob.

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

anyway i'm 5'9" and 70kgs and i was working with a little fella about 6'5" and about 110kgs of athletism. it took me about 3 seconds to choke him out from standing. for those interested i used a wrestling 'snap down' to 'breadbasket' choke.



thanks

Any photos/vids of these moves?

I am trying to get an idea of what these moves are in the hope, I will find someone over next year to train me.

You told me your girlfriend choked out a big obnoxious rugger guy in a nightclub for harraassing her? Can you share that story again?

Thanks

G

Boru.

Thanks for the kind words Judomick.

Baggio's right the course is 75. I;ve ony just confirmed the date so its not even on the website yet.

For anyone intrested you can pm me.

John it would a pleasure if you came along, I doubt you'll see much new in the way of grappling, but some of the other stuff like the rescue drills should prove intresting for you.


Loz, of course you can condition your neck. For instance the wrestlers bridge is a great old time strength and conditioning drill. And you can certainly improve the joints, including the elbow joints by increasing the range of motion through flexibility drills and strength training. If your stuck for some exercises pm and I'll go through a few for you.:)

That said if you're technique is solid of course you can get around a thick neck, as John said its a nice big target, but I can't, so I don't. I go with what works for me.

Tim I might not be able to kill him, no, but I'm gonna try my hardest, and if in doing so I get the oppertunity to escape I will take it.:)

Miles Long

Tim_Murphy wrote:

What do you do with them?

Ah Tim come on it's obviously ground fighting... But seriously, John is it anything MA orientated or are you in fitness/ diet/ conditioning/ some other qualification you may have that you use to help out?

Budo.Judo.Kev

Yeah do tell john. I heard the New Zealand Rugby team had a Judo coach for a while and Jonah Lomu is a Black belt etc.

john kavanagh

i coach them (with andy ryan) in clinch and ground...SBG stylee:)

one of their head coaches, an aussie, told me most of the top teams in Oz train BJJ/Judo.

Budo.Judo.Kev

Man that's scary. What happens if they start entering competitoins and just chucking us normal people around?

Miles Long

There are some big dudes on that panel man. I can see it now, Brian O'Driscoll escapes from Tana Umaga next spear and nails him with a arm-bar til the ref calls it. Imagine around the breakdowns in the game, guys rolling and stuff, I mean they already know some chokes and things from playing senior cup but ...

John K wrote:

one of their head coaches, an aussie, told me most of the top teams in Oz train BJJ/Judo.

... was that the main reason. "Anything you can do I can do better". Do you couple it with any aspects of rugby or is it just, "Oh and lads, This is John Kavanagh. He's going to be teaching you BJJ. Right, I'll leave yis to it".:D

john kavanagh

bjj/judo/wrestling are the deliveries systems. changes in tactics and strategy make it suitable for rugby....kinda like how the tactics and strategies are changed to suit the ring or the cage or even the.....STREET

Roper

For instance in a superior mounted postion with punches and elbows raining down on my head, (which may or may not be bouncing off the parvement), I won't try and grapple for dominance, I wont try to reverse the mount, I will go straight for his eyes or his throat. If I get to them great, if not and he adjusts positoing I can then lever that to an escape

I'm not picking Boru, but did you ever stop to think that BJJ, judo etc. might offer a better solution then 'go for the eyes and throat?'

john kavanagh

Roper wrote:

I'm not picking Boru, but did you ever stop to think that BJJ, judo etc. might offer a better solution then 'go for the eyes and throat?'

in fairness Roper, like mick said at least he's going to video and show some of his stuff - so better wait to see it

Boru.

Hi Roper,

In answer to your question, I did, which is why I frequent these boards and get the opinions of others here who do practice BJJ and other grappling arts. Every martial arts and system has something to offer of positive benefit, but what is being presented here is a very small aspect of ground fighting.

BJJ is undoubtably a superior art for grapping, as is Judo and Jujitsu, but I feel that it did not adequately address my concerns with regards to ground fighting. After 14 years of Shotokan Karate I realsied it too hadn't addressed my concerns. Does that make it any less valid, or the techniques worthless? Of course not. I'm not looking to compete, I'm not looking to be an artist, and I'm not looking for technical perfection and grace. I am looking to fight and survive if I or a loved one is attacked. Can BJJ do that fast and efficently, not for me and what I want.

I highly recomend to all my students to study other martial arts and systems from the best instructors possible (of which I consider John to be), and I admit at times I really do feel that I'm the only one who does. Everyone is so quick to claim superiority for their system and style they automatically shut down to the possability that perhaps some thing in another style or system of thought could be of use. I repeat it endlessly in my posts and only recently have I felt that people actually are trying to do the same.

But let me address this definitely - RBPP as a system, covers aspects of ground fighting that are not taught in any BJJ dojo, of which I am aware (again I open to correction). Does it cover the multitude of possabilities BJJ does? Hell no, but that's BJJ not RBPP.

A quick example, I consider the following important aspects of ground fighting, this is not a complete list obviously:

Weapon retention (firearms, knife etc)
Wall Manuvers (like head bouncing and secondary impact strikes)
Victim Rescue Techniques (Ground)
Citizen’s Arrest Techniques (both standard and uncoperative)
Restraint Positional Asphyxiation awareness

I don't think any of them are taught in standard BJJ except in facilities wher the instructor is porgressive and RB minded.

Are those skills important to you? Probably not and that's okay. But I am teaching a system where we feel that is important, plus all the basisc necessary to survive a street incident like

Falling and ground evasion techniques
Tactical Dive's
Shooting positions
Crawling technquies
Dead and Move Drills
Running Slides
Take downs
Tackle Defneces
Conflict Positioning
Recovery Techniques
Strikes
Grabs
Lethal Force Technquies
Evades and Escapes
Counter Guards Technqniues

and the list goes on. Even where these apply and overlap with BJJ it's taught from a different perspective and a different point of view. For instance when doing counter guard technqiues I assume you don't focus on attacking the bladder, groin and femoral artery first becasue this isn't allowed in the rules of competition or in the dojo. I'm sure they are taught in the occassional class dealing with street application - but is it the primary focus of a BJJ class? I don't think it is, but I could be wrong.

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

but did you ever stop to think that BJJ, judo etc. might offer a better solution then 'go for the eyes and throat?'

It might not though...:D

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

It might not though...:D

True. But since Boru by his own admition knows nothing about BJJ, it would seem to be a mistake to exclude it.

Boru,
To be fair, I was just making a point but I'll reserve judgment until I see the por.. eh training vid you're making.

Millionaire

any photos/ references available to these techniques John mentioned he used on rugger guy?

I am really keen to see how what they look like/work?

Reason I am not googling myself, is I would not have clue what a good or bad one looked liked. thats why I am asking if anyone has anything they can post/send me.

Thanks

G

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

any photos/ references available to these techniques John mentioned he used on rugger guy?

I am really keen to see how what they look like/work?

Reason I am not googling myself, is I would not have clue what a good or bad one looked liked. thats why I am asking if anyone has anything they can post/send me.

Thanks

G

google it, post it and then i'll tell you if its good eg or not - seek and ye shall find:D

remember the techniques themselves are useless without an understanding of the delivery systems. and an understanding of these can only come through functional training methods.

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

google it, post it and then i'll tell you if its good eg or not - seek and ye shall find:D

remember the techniques themselves are useless without an understanding of the delivery systems. and an understanding of these can only come through functional training methods.

Yes..give me a few days and I will see what I can dig up. Then lets review!

Though in my own learning mode, I find if I see then thing, when the time come to train it, it comes a little quicker to me.

That bloody Eddie Bravo BJJ book is the pits though, it makes basic bjj look impossible to learn. I think DVD would be the best mode to see the basics.

I really like the idea of when one is in clinch range, having the ability to "throw" opponent to the ground. To me that would be an extremely useful skill for SD. Or have superior control of opponent in clinch, so you can move him, neck crank him, into choke position. again to me real useful for SD.
and of course to spar this with a live opponent sparring back.

Bit of trivia too... in Israel, the KM lads, who had good grappling skills, felt that grappling was an important skill to have, as if attacked, in a fight, you could beat attacker, without smashing his teeth in with a punch etc...

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

I think DVD would be the best mode to see the basics.

to 'see' yes, to learn no

Millionaire wrote:

I really like the idea of when one is in clinch range, having the ability to "throw" opponent to the ground. To me that would be an extremely useful skill for SD. Or have superior control of opponent in clinch, so you can move him, neck crank him, into choke position. again to me real useful for SD.
and of course to spar this with a live opponent sparring back.

you've just described the vast majority of judo/freestyle/greco-roman gyms. and i agree with your point

Millionaire wrote:

Bit of trivia too... in Israel, the KM lads, who had good grappling skills, felt that grappling was an important skill to have, as if attacked, in a fight, you could beat attacker, without smashing his teeth in with a punch etc...

hmm sounds familiar;)