[article] 500km of road network could be motorways,claims NRA

Navan Junction

John Downes, Irish Times, 17/08/2006

The National Roads Authority (NRA) has claimed that continuing discussions between it and the Department of Transport could lead to the reclassification of up to 500km of the State's dual carriageways as motorways.


Among the sections of road which might be reclassified on a "case-by-case" basis are existing or planned dual carriageways on each of the five main inter-urban routes, as well as some of the N11 and parts of the N18 along the Atlantic Corridor.

If approved by Minister for Transport Martin Cullen, the move, which would require proposals to amend existing legislation, would also entail an increase in the speed limit on the dual carriageways concerned from 100km/h to 120km/h.

The State's 400,000 provisional licence holders, who are not allowed to drive on motorways, are unlikely to be permitted to use the dual carriageways if reclassified.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Transport confirmed that discussions with the NRA on the matter are continuing. But she said these were at an "early stage" and declined to comment further on when any decision might be made.

Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs with the NRA, claimed discussions with the department are at an "advanced stage". He said: "We think they see the merit of our suggestions, and we are optimistic proposals will emerge."

The NRA estimates that up to 500km of the current national road network could be reclassified as motorways.

As dual carriageways are already being built to motorway standard, Mr Egan claimed this means they can safely allow for speeds of up to 120km/h. This would allow for journey times on the roads in question to be cut.

The NRA believes that another key benefit would be to prohibit housing and other development activity along existing and planned dual carriageway routes.

Such development is currently prohibited along motorways, and if applied to dual carriageways, might ensure that "inappropriate" future development does not take place along these routes, the NRA maintains.

The NRA's research indicates that limiting the number of turns off a dual carriageway into or from such developments could impact significantly on the number of accidents which occur, and would decrease travel times along the routes.

© The Irish Times

Slice

The NRA believes that another key benefit would be to prohibit housing and other development activity along existing and planned dual carriageway routes.

When Fianna Fail's own councillors have been known to vote in favour of rezoning land the NRA plan to build roads on to line the pockets of local property owners here's betting that this proposal is going nowhere...

nordydan

Myabe there will be a change on emphasis on what is an alternative route, ie forkill through newry for the Dundalk-Newry road
Obviously the N6-9 will be included in this. N2 and N25 would also appear candidates. The N11 is not so clear.

Its time for the specific non-motorway traffic signs to appear en masse.

westtip

Navan Junction wrote:

John Downes, Irish Times, 17/08/2006

The State's 400,000 provisional licence holders, who are not allowed to drive on motorways, are unlikely to be permitted to use the dual carriageways if reclassified.


© The Irish Times

Yeh right - so there are no provisional licence holders jumping on the M50 everyday to drive to work out of 400,000 in the country. Most of them are probably not even aware of this situation - when was the last time the police stopped anyone on a motorway and said can I see what level of licence you have. The law is one thing. Implementing it, it seems is quite another. Perhaps Mininster "e-voting I'm off to sunshine on a jolly with PR colleagues" Cullen could focus on the small details which need sorting out before making any sweeping statements. You can see it now - they will re-classify all these roads as motorways and somehow it will creep into the manifesto - We are on target to provide XXX kilometres of motorway - last year we we managed to conjure up 500 KM of motorway classified road overnight, they may leave this last sentence out.

BTW - if these 500 kms of dual carriageway become motorway overnihgt do they also become part of the electronic tolling system so they can be paid for again and again - mind you here is a thought with Mininster "e-voting I'm off to the sunshine on a jolly with PR colleagues" Cullen in charge I don't hold out much hope of this e-tagging e-tolling working either - track record of the minister speaks for itself.

Three words come to mind: Wool eyes over.

jlang

Why not? It's the same as taking the roads we have and declaring a painted bit by the side to be cycle tracks/roads/ways. Much cheaper way to increase cycleway/motorway kilometerage than actually building new ones.

More seriously this sounds like a good idea and is regularly suggested here. Several of the DCs are of better standard than roads that would be Motorways in other countries. I don't really mind whether they get blue signs, so long as they get 120km/h limits, but it would make the maps look nicer.

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

Its time for the specific non-motorway traffic signs to appear en masse.

:eek: Like this (with twice the text obviously );

:eek:

bryanw

I don't know if that "500km" figure sounds too promising... on a very quick check I did, I worked out the the Dublin - Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford Roads would be almost 650km total alone (taking into account that the don't run into Dublin itself). That's not including the other about 180km which constitute the M1, M50, M11 and planned M3. They should be giving us a few 100kms more motorways....

I don't know why they are making it sound so fantastic, I hope they're not going to start reclassifying patches old dual-carrigways which might make a good motorway without first doing the interubans as motorways in their entirety with blue signs et al.

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

:eek: Like this (with twice the text obviously );

:eek:

Here comes Ruth Dudley Murphaph, back again with more treasonous rantings.
Look out for this new sign outside your house:

murphaph

Well, you did suggest a proper way of indicating non-motorway traffic should leave at the next exit, or did I pick that up wrong, guv'nor?

Ah, the old SAW sign. I always found it amusing that the republicans who erected those used the british standard warning sign (red trangle) template instead of the one we use in this country (yellow diamond).

murphaph

Ah, here ya go dan.....

nordydan

Aye, I've seen that one before. WOW!!!
What might have been, you reckon. Ah well.

I think they used the British sign format so their targets could understand it easier!

Regardless, I would appreciate it if your posts related to the title of the thread. These sort of posts are simply not cricket my dear boy!

murphaph

I disagree. The article mentions the 400k prohibited traffic reasons that this sort of sign should appear where N roads run directly into M roads. I've even seen it at the N11-M11 join where the last fork sign before the M11 begins has no chopsticks sign, this makes prosecuting a learner or tractor driver who continues onto the M11 a no-no. The chpsticks are the legal requirement that makes the sign mean "motorway directly ahead". Currently it's just a direction sign and the M11 is ahead somewhere, but not yet. At least those wretched brits generally do these things properly, whereas we, generally don't. I consder it my patriotic duty to criticise the numerous failings of the NRA and just about every local authority in the Republic when it coms to signage. You may want to pull the wool over your eyes and pretend it's all good, but it isn't.

As already noted in this thread, the actual enforecment of these laws by our dear Gardai is attrocious. You get stopped on a provisional on a UK* motorway and you are in big trouble, likewise driving unaccompanied.



*Just using the UK as a reference Dan, simply because our road traffic legislation closest matches theirs and not other more developed countries like Germany.

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

You may want to pull the wool over your eyes and pretend it's all good, but it isn't.

Given my statement (which you jumped on in your brit loving fervour) that there needed to be improvements to non-motorway signs, it kind of blows your silly hypothesis that I think its 'all good' out of the window.

murphaph wrote:

Just using the UK as a reference Dan, simply because our road traffic legislation closest matches theirs and not other more developed countries like Germany.

You seem to use the UK as more than a reference my lad. Your unhealthy love for it to the extent of denigrating your own country has no limits!!

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

Given my statement (which you jumped on in your brit loving fervour) that there needed to be improvements to non-motorway signs, it kind of blows your silly hypothesis that I think its 'all good' out of the window.

You're on record right here on boards claiming that the sh!tty gantry signage flying up all over the republic is better than what went before so it's ok. Everyone else sees the folly in these signs. Our own TSM is almost a carbon copy of the UK TSGRD but we can't quite seem to abide by it and the NRA just make up 'new and disimproved' versions of tried and tested signs. Great little country as dev would say, eh Dan? The only local authority I would say comes close to following the TSM is Dublin City Council. Here's a game, next time your in this country, try to count how many pelican crossings have the proper zig-zag road markings on their approach.

nordydan wrote:

You seem to use the UK as more than a reference my lad. Your unhealthy love for it to the extent of denigrating your own country has no limits!!

Well, we are close neighbours to the extent of sharing a 300 mile land border with you guys.

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

You're on record right here on boards claiming that the sh!tty gantry signage flying up all over the republic is better than what went before so it's ok. Everyone else sees the folly in these signs. Our own TSM is almost a carbon copy of the UK TSGRD but we can't quite seem to abide by it and the NRA just make up 'new and disimproved' versions of tried and tested signs. Great little country as dev would say, eh Dan? The only local authority I would say comes close to following the TSM is Dublin City Council. Here's a game, next time your in this country, try to count how many pelican crossings have the proper zig-zag road markings on their approach.


Well, we are close neighbours to the extent of sharing a 300 mile land border with you guys.

Murphaph, I was born in Kerry. Are you saying that Newry is a 'foreign country'? You guys! Don't talk crap.

nordydan

bryanw wrote:

I don't know if that "500km" figure sounds too promising... on a very quick check I did, I worked out the the Dublin - Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford Roads would be almost 650km total alone (taking into account that the don't run into Dublin itself). That's not including the other about 180km which constitute the M1, M50, M11 and planned M3. They should be giving us a few 100kms more motorways....

I don't know why they are making it sound so fantastic, I hope they're not going to start reclassifying patches old dual-carrigways which might make a good motorway without first doing the interubans as motorways in their entirety with blue signs et al.

The interurbans might just make up the 500km themselves. I roughly calculate 110km from Kilcullen-Waterford, 150 Portlaoise-Glanmire, 100km Portlaoise-Limerick and 140 Galway-Kilcullen.

westtip

Navan Junction wrote:

John Downes, Irish Times, 17/08/2006

The NRA estimates that up to 500km of the current national road network could be reclassified as motorways.

As dual carriageways are already being built to motorway standard, Mr Egan claimed this means they can safely allow for speeds of up to 120km/h. This would allow for journey times on the roads in question to be cut.© The Irish Times

OK back on subject boys - here is one for ye all: Can we identify the 500 km of dual carriagway of the current national road network (that is not already motorway - ie M50 new M4 etc are excluded)

My regulars would be: Athlone by-pass (11 KM?)

Mullingar By-pass - the bit after you come off the M4 (confusing isn't it) - probably about 10 km

Collooney sligo section of N4, inc the new Sligo Inner Relief road - Ok it does have roundabouts and traffic lights on it (so not exactly motorway Minister) about 10km.

Is the N11/M11 motorway from the M50 past Bray and Greystones now Motorway or is it DC. I just drive fast on DC anyway (as long as conditions permit and its safe, I see no problem with 75 mph on these roads) so the rule about 120 kph doesn't interest me, if I get caught so what.

That's my lot for a regular travellor to the north west and midlands.

Will the Stillorgan Road - DC but lots of traffic lights become a motorway overnight? Does that bit of DC going into Galway crossing the river now count as motorway (used to have a 30 mph on it in the pre decimal days and it has traffic light on it - not exactly to be expected on a motorway, not to mention all those roundabouts as your approach Galway

My point being does it really matter if they are called motorway or DC. DC is a good road and like certain prison camps or nuclear power plants changing the name won't change anything. It might make the NRA/Govt feel better about themselves but it makes Jack sh*t difference to life in general.

And will our new 2+1's be reclassified as almost motorways but only half of the time. It is a bit like the decimalisation of the speed limits, a totally pointless exercise in which millions was spent changing every speed limit sign in the country and actually achieved, well nothing IMO, apart from the fact down the country the various councils chose to put 100 kph signs at some of the most dangerous bends on our N roads in the west that in your right mind you wouldn't take at 60 mph (sorry 100 kph)

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

Murphaph, I was born in Kerry. Are you saying that Newry is a 'foreign country'? You guys! Don't talk crap.

Newry is not in a 'foreign country' as far as our legislation is concerned. Dublin is not in a 'foreign country' as far as Westminster legislation is concened also. You were born in Kerry, ok, but you live in the UK don't you? That's what I mean by "you guys".

Anyway, westtp, you're forgetting the N2 DC to Ashbourne! Also, parts of the N7 from the M7 eastwards could go M7.

N25 Carrigtwohill bypass and the Ballincollig Bypass are M-way standard too IIRC. Southern Ring might be when the roundabouts are all grade separated.

Limerick southern ring also and N'market on Fergus N18 bypass.

nordydan

Murphaph - you started this, I'll finish it. Back on the topic and shut up.

nordydan

westtip wrote:

OK back on subject boys - here is one for ye all: Can we identify the 500 km of dual carriagway of the current national road network (that is not already motorway - ie M50 new M4 etc are excluded)

My regulars would be: Athlone by-pass (11 KM?)

Mullingar By-pass - the bit after you come off the M4 (confusing isn't it) - probably about 10 km

Collooney sligo section of N4, inc the new Sligo Inner Relief road - Ok it does have roundabouts and traffic lights on it (so not exactly motorway Minister) about 10km.

Is the N11/M11 motorway from the M50 past Bray and Greystones now Motorway or is it DC. I just drive fast on DC anyway (as long as conditions permit and its safe, I see no problem with 75 mph on these roads) so the rule about 120 kph doesn't interest me, if I get caught so what.

That's my lot for a regular travellor to the north west and midlands.

Will the Stillorgan Road - DC but lots of traffic lights become a motorway overnight? Does that bit of DC going into Galway crossing the river now count as motorway (used to have a 30 mph on it in the pre decimal days and it has traffic light on it - not exactly to be expected on a motorway, not to mention all those roundabouts as your approach Galway

My point being does it really matter if they are called motorway or DC. DC is a good road and like certain prison camps or nuclear power plants changing the name won't change anything. It might make the NRA/Govt feel better about themselves but it makes Jack sh*t difference to life in general.

And will our new 2+1's be reclassified as almost motorways but only half of the time. It is a bit like the decimalisation of the speed limits, a totally pointless exercise in which millions was spent changing every speed limit sign in the country and actually achieved, well nothing IMO, apart from the fact down the country the various councils chose to put 100 kph signs at some of the most dangerous bends on our N roads in the west that in your right mind you wouldn't take at 60 mph (sorry 100 kph)

The N11 north of the M50 is nowhere hear motorway standard. Likewsie the Sligo-Cooloney needs a few more GSJs. The N1 to newry would be a prime contender and could be done in the northern part as well, but that would lead to a naming issue in the north.

Re: the N3,4,7 joining up with the M50 it would be good if necessary measures were taken to bring the motorways into the M50. With the new freeflow junctions it would mean that the motorways would be continuous for this traffic, not just the M1-M11.

By decimalisation i presume you metrification. That was a great move and moved ireland in line with the rest of europe. Imperial measurements had their day a long time ago.

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

Murphaph - you started this

Au-contraire. You said;

Its time for the specific non-motorway traffic signs to appear en masse.

....to which I posted a UK example of said sign, the only possible country I could have referenced as nobody else calls them 'motorways' and uses similar signage principles. You then (as usual) accused me of being a west brit traitor for daring to introduce a UK signface to a discussion on shock, horor, signage :rolleyes:

Read back, that's what actually happened here

Back OT.....

It'll be interesting to see if the reclassification means the M4 McNead's Bridge and M4 Mullingar bypass would 'force' the GSJing of the low standard DC between them and upgrade to motorway. Would likely require CPO.

Chris_533976

The State's 400,000 provisional licence holders, who are not allowed to drive on motorways, are unlikely to be permitted to use the dual carriageways if reclassified.

There we go. Straight away this proposal will fall down the tubes because there will be MURDER about this.

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote:

There we go. Straight away this proposal will fall down the tubes because there will be MURDER about this.

Ah I dunno Chris. Sure who really believe L-drivers stay off the motorways we have?

westtip

nordydan wrote:

By decimalisation i presume you metrification. That was a great move and moved ireland in line with the rest of europe. Imperial measurements had their day a long time ago.

yep i did mean metrification - can't see what differenc it has made to driver behviour can you? Was it worth it? I don't think so. As for all this DC being rebranded motorway - another complete waste of time and money, it seems to be just an ego trip for the NRA and Minister e-voting cullen. He is a good one at the old PR though, he spent enough when at the DOE getting advice I guess it has rubbed off. I think I heard him called Minister for Press Releases somewhere along the lines.

bryanw

nordydan wrote:

The interurbans might just make up the 500km themselves. I roughly calculate 110km from Kilcullen-Waterford, 150 Portlaoise-Glanmire, 100km Portlaoise-Limerick and 140 Galway-Kilcullen.

I see what your saying, but I meant the total - built and planned. Here's what I came up with. All rounded off, but should even out in the end. I'm also aware of the planed routes being different to the current ones.

Nass - Limerick: 160km
Portlaoise - Cork: 170km
Lucan - Galway: 200km
Killcullen - Waterford: 120km
Kilmacanogue - North of Dundalk M11/M50/M1: 120km
M3: 60km

Total (drumroll!): 830km + plus whatever reclassifying they want to do...

nordydan

westtip wrote:

yep i did mean metrification - can't see what differenc it has made to driver behviour can you? Was it worth it? I don't think so. As for all this DC being rebranded motorway - another complete waste of time and money, it seems to be just an ego trip for the NRA and Minister e-voting cullen. He is a good one at the old PR though, he spent enough when at the DOE getting advice I guess it has rubbed off. I think I heard him called Minister for Press Releases somewhere along the lines.

Well one thing it did was allow 120km/h or 75mph on the motorways which is a perfectly sensible step. I personally think 130km/h would be entirely suitable for such a road. And we did get rid of the NSL signs, another good step.
I think as regards the future it was a necessary step for future generations as the metric system is the future. Even the UK will have to fall in line at some stage, I think there was a driective from the EU to make the change.

loyatemu

back on topic

N11:
Fassaroe (end of M11) to Kilpedder is not really up to motorway spec; too many junctions and local access roads.
Kilpedder to Wicklow (where the DC ends) could definitely be reclassified, but as some of it was built on the alignment of the old road there might be a problem providing an alternative route (non-MWay traffic could go through Kilcoole and Newcastle but it would be very slow)
Arklow bypass is easily motorway standard and I presume the Gorey link will be as well.

nordydan

loyatemu wrote:

back on topic

N11:
Fassaroe (end of M11) to Kilpedder is not really up to motorway spec; too many junctions and local access roads.
Kilpedder to Wicklow (where the DC ends) could definitely be reclassified, but as some of it was built on the alignment of the old road there might be a problem providing an alternative route (non-MWay traffic could go through Kilcoole and Newcastle but it would be very slow)
Arklow bypass is easily motorway standard and I presume the Gorey link will be as well.

The Rathnew to Arklow likewise is listed as HQDC but wil also incorporate the existing route a little.

dowlingm

Well if they're designating 500km let's hope they throw out the stupid junction number system in favour of a "Junction 67" at 67km from the start of the motorway so that as bits get added in or extra junctions created you don't have to put in "7A, 7B" except where two junctions occur in the same 1km stretch.

westtip

dowlingm wrote:

Well if they're designating 500km let's hope they throw out the stupid junction number system in favour of a "Junction 67" at 67km from the start of the motorway so that as bits get added in or extra junctions created you don't have to put in "7A, 7B" except where two junctions occur in the same 1km stretch.

yes but where does a motorway start at the beginning or at the end? it depends where you come from, does the M50 start at the M1 or at the N11, does the N/M4 start in Dublin or Sligo, and the N/M6 at Kinnegad or Galway?
Is the Galway road the Galway road or the Dublin road? and if the N/M6 starts in Galway and finishes in Kinnegad is it actually the Kinnegad road. Personally I think it much easier when giving directions to say to someone come off at Juntion 5 or even 5A if they slot an extra juntion in between 5 and 6 than saying when you are 65 km from Dublin come off at junction 65, but if you miss it go on to the next junction which is about 20k away and called junction 47, which is actually 18 k away but people are more likely to say about 20k Whilst the A and B add in junctions are a pain they are not the norm, and for me doing the junction numbers sequentially from an agreed starting point is much better. Confused where we are. The rocky road to Kinnegad perhaps??

Alun

dowlingm wrote:

Well if they're designating 500km let's hope they throw out the stupid junction number system in favour of a "Junction 67" at 67km from the start of the motorway so that as bits get added in or extra junctions created you don't have to put in "7A, 7B" except where two junctions occur in the same 1km stretch.

... which doesn't happen that much in practice to make it an unusable or "silly" system, plus it's pretty widely used across Europe, so it's familiar.

ANyway, I actually prefer it to the km based system because of the smaller numbers used. If I'm at Junction 5 and I want to get off at Junction 7, say, I know I have 2 junctions to go, and I can use the next junction I get to as a landmark to start maybe slowing down a bit, making sure I can get in lane if necessary if it's busy and preparing to look out for my junction. If I'm at, say, Junction 67, and I want to get off at Junction 123, not only do I have to subtract 67 from 123 in my head, but it tells me nothing about how many junctions there are between me and my turn-off.