AQ off, what should I do?

Lazare

Fitz €50 DC tonight, table is broken not long after the break, I arrive at new table still steaming from a bad decision I made earlier that left me with a shortish stack (1200).Blinds are 75/150 and I'm dealt A 7off in LP, folded to me in seat 10 and I'm deciding whether or not to make a move, cut off and button both fold out of turn so I push. SB calls with KK, BB folds and I suck out with trip 7's and double up getting me out of the danger zone for the moment.

Next hand I'm dealt AsQc, again folded to me and I make it 450, player in seat 1 pushes for about 1300, CO pushes for 1575, button and blinds fold. Not too worried about seat 1 but no reads on either of them.

Your move?

phantom_lord

Probably fold.

fuzzbox

how much do you have?

Lazare

If I gamble and win I'll have 5500, a little above average. Lose and I'll have 375

fuzzbox

you could just answer the old fashioned way

Lazare

lol, 1950 after initial raise.

fuzzbox

when CO pushes, is it 1575 MORE or 1575 total?

De Deraco

gamble gamble

Lazare

1575 total.

fuzzbox

if you have 1950 after bettin 450 then how would you end with 375 if you call and l ose?

Lazare

1575 was total I had to call. I had 1950 behind.

fuzzbox

Anyway 1300 + 1575 + 225 + 450 = 4550
you have to call 1125 to win it.

Getting 4:1 it looks like a call.

fuzzbox

Lazare wrote:

1575 was total I had to call. I had 1950 behind.

You bet 450, then another guy moved in for 1300 (???) and then another guy moved in for 1575 (???)

Or was it you bet 450, dude moves in for 1750, other dude moves in for 2025 ??

Lazare

That was my thinking. I made the call. Seat 1 had 10sJs, CO had KK. Kings held up. It was a blind gamble, but I felt I needed to. A guy to my right commented that it was a bad call, hence the reason I posted.

Cheers Fuzz, am glad to know you would've done the same.

Lazare

fuzzbox wrote:

You bet 450, then another guy moved in for 1300 (???) and then another guy moved in for 1575 (???)

??

This one is correct. I had them both covered.

Hectorjelly

I dont see how anyone can find these tournaments/decisions interesting.

Lazare what the guy meant was that it was a bad call because you were almost certainly beaten, but he wasnt taking the pot odds into account because he was likely to have a very minimal understanding of poker.

Lazare

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont see how anyone can find these tournaments/decisions interesting.

Lazare what the guy meant was that it was a bad call because you were almost certainly beaten, but he wasnt taking the pot odds into account because he was likely to have a very minimal understanding of poker.

I agree HJ, I expected to be behind, but just felt at that stage I needed to gamble to have any chance of picking up pots later, therefore was a little annoyed at the comment. He didn't mean any offence btw.

De Deraco

thats a bit harsh HJ. you may have know this situation in and out and there are many threads about playing AQ into raiser before. but the forum gets new members and becomes bigger all the time and its a simple fact that your gonna have repeated threads on the same subject.

Anyway push everytime its the fitz 50dc and their shortstacks thats all the read you need.

Lazare

De Deraco wrote:

thats a bit harsh HJ. you may have know this situation in and out and there are many threads about playing AQ into raiser before. but the forum gets new members and becomes bigger all the time and its a simple fact that your gonna have repeated threads on the same subject.

I took no offence. Maybe it is a no-brainer, not worthy of a thread.
I just wanted better players than me to re-assure me I did the right thing.

And I got that.

Hectorjelly

Oh I apologise, I didnt mean that the situation was obvious, just that its a boring decision to make, and tournaments are pretty boring when the stacks get this shallow. Whats the best weekly tournament at the moment in terms of structure?

De Deraco

Apology accepted. and probably the Jackpot tuesday tourny. 8000 starting stack and 30 min blinds, entry is 110 euro

imalegend

Lazare what the guy meant was that it was a bad call because you were almost certainly beaten, but he wasnt taking the pot odds into account because he was likely to have a very minimal understanding of poker.[/QUOTE]

i was the player who made the comment.he had more than 10 big blinds left behind and in a tourney do u not want to put your chips in ahead if you want to gamble??why not pick a better spot.he was next in the bb of 150 and could easily sit there for a round and wait for a better time 2 go all in.How can you say i have a minimal understanding??cos he got the right odds to call...ace queen is muck in a tourney..dont care what any 1 says...great hand 2 raise with but 2 call 2 all ins with it is madness and put your whole tourney on the line with it.even though in this situation he wasnt in the worst of shape...imo i think 2 call any all in with it is madness...i have knocked alot of people alot of late when they raise with ace q and i put them all in and i have ace k and they call....you have to think what are you beating with it??best sitaution ace j ace 10 or a race with an underpair..

didnt mean the comments at the table 2 sound as bad as they did either..sorry about that...

ianmc38

Hectorjelly wrote:

Whats the best weekly tournament at the moment in terms of structure?

For me, it's the Sporting Emporium scalps on a Wednesday night. Tonnes of play.

I think this hand is a fold btw. Yes we're getting the correct odds, but at best we're likely to be against AQ here, often AK and even more so KK/AA.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

For me, it's the Sporting Emporium scalps on a Wednesday night. Tonnes of play.

I think this hand is a fold btw. Yes we're getting the correct odds, but at best we're likely to be against AQ here, often AK and even more so KK/AA.

You are getting way more than the correct odds.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

You are getting way more than the correct odds.

Not for a 3-outer.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Not for a 3-outer.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 74.6570 % 72.35% 02.31% { AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 25.3430 % 23.04% 02.31% { AQo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 73.7011 % 72.09% 01.61% { KK, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 26.2989 % 24.69% 01.61% { AQo }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.6650 % 52.64% 11.02% { KK-TT, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 36.3350 % 25.31% 11.02% { AQo }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 27.4928 % 25.74% 01.75% { 99+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 43.0381 % 38.21% 04.82% { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 3: 29.4691 % 24.24% 05.23% { AQo }


Getting 4:1, you only need 20% equity.

ianmc38

Meh. If he showed me AK, KK or AA preflop, I would insta-fold. That odds malarky will only get ya in trouble

imalegend

bring ur little equity sheet to the table....you can talk about odds all you want but this should have been a fold end of story.player in seat 1 was loose and gambling seat 2 was a proper hand so there were better spots to be picked.grand stack to push with at a different time.its all about picking your spots and this 1 was one he could have got away from regarless of his 4/1 odds and all that....would u prefer a 15/8 fav to put your chips on or a 4/1 outside shot???

Gholimoli

imalegend wrote:

Lazare what the guy meant was that it was a bad call because you were almost certainly beaten, but he wasnt taking the pot odds into account because he was likely to have a very minimal understanding of poker.

i was the player who made the comment.he had more than 10 big blinds left behind and in a tourney do u not want to put your chips in ahead if you want to gamble??why not pick a better spot.he was next in the bb of 150 and could easily sit there for a round and wait for a better time 2 go all in.How can you say i have a minimal understanding??cos he got the right odds to call...ace queen is muck in a tourney..dont care what any 1 says...great hand 2 raise with but 2 call 2 all ins with it is madness and put your whole tourney on the line with it.even though in this situation he wasnt in the worst of shape...imo i think 2 call any all in with it is madness...i have knocked alot of people alot of late when they raise with ace q and i put them all in and i have ace k and they call....you have to think what are you beating with it??best sitaution ace j ace 10 or a race with an underpair..

didnt mean the comments at the table 2 sound as bad as they did either..sorry about that...[/QUOTE]
This is completely wrong way of thinking.
You don’t have to think, “What you beat with it “ at all. So say AQ is a bad hand in tournaments just shows that your thinking is flawed.
To have 10bb left is not enough at all to lay down a hand if your getting attractive odds on your money.
The things that should be considered is how shallow the stack are and the odds on offer.
Fuzz calculated the odds to be 4:1 .if those are indeed the odds then there is no way he can lay this down.
You have to weigh the equity of your hand against the possible ranges of the other two hands and see what you come up with.
If you but player two on the following range : 66+,Aj+,,KQ,Kj,QJ,
And you put player 3 on the following range : JJ+,AK,
Then you will have :
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 20.7919 % 19.23% 01.56% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 25.9983 % 23.91% 02.09% { 66+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 53.2098 % 51.52% 01.69% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

That’s 20% equity, which is more than enough to make the call .
Obviously you cant do this calculations on the table but you can figure out your odds and know that 4:1 is huge.

Gholimoli

imalegend wrote:

bring ur little equity sheet to the table....you can talk about odds all you want but this should have been a fold end of story.player in seat 1 was loose and gambling seat 2 was a proper hand so there were better spots to be picked.grand stack to push with at a different time.its all about picking your spots and this 1 was one he could have got away from regarless of his 4/1 odds and all that....would u prefer a 15/8 fav to put your chips on or a 4/1 outside shot???

This post clearly suggest that you have no idea what your talking about.
You say “its all about picking your spots” yet you have no idea what this means.
This is a spot to pick.
Your playing with these words like picking spots,grand stack,bla bla but you have not got a clue what they mean.
“this should have been a fold end of story” and why the hell is that?
Cuz you say so?
Cause you think your good enough to know that AQ can be folded ?
Dude I suggest you go back to basics and don’t post strong openions like that unless you can back it up properly.

imalegend

my thinking may be flawed but i fold thath hand and im still in the tournament and pick a better spot..still why gamble at 4/1 when u have enough chips 2 possible get a hand heads up in the next round when your a fav to double up??

my point is fold and wait for a better time regardless of odds....he lost the hand and was gone so no matter what u say i was right in the fold call.

Gholimoli

imalegend wrote:

my thinking may be flawed but i fold thath hand and im still in the tournament and pick a better spot..still why gamble at 4/1 when u have enough chips 2 possible get a hand heads up in the next round when your a fav to double up??

my point is fold and wait for a better time regardless of odds....he lost the hand and was gone so no matter what u say i was right in the fold call.

honestly dude i would stop if i were you.these comments your making are just hilarious .

imalegend

final table 2004 world series...david williams comes 2nd....1 hand ....dan harrington pushed all in from button with 73...williams in bb doesnt blink folding ace q suited...was he not getting odds or is he as stupid as me???

he didnt even blink make this decsion.

and plus i was sitting at the table from the start and knew your man had either aa kk or ace k!!!so easy fold

sendic

imalegend wrote:

he didnt even blink make this decsion.

dig up you fool! dig up!

cooker3

Just say he had 30 bb left as an example and had to call all his chips off with AQ when he had the right price to call, is it correct there.

I don't claim to know correct answer either way but when does protecting your tournament life become more important then getting the right odds if ever?

fuzzbox

imalegend wrote:

final table 2004 world series...david williams comes 2nd....1 hand ....dan harrington pushed all in from button with 73...williams in bb doesnt blink folding ace q suited...was he not getting odds or is he as stupid as me???

he didnt even blink make this decsion.

and plus i was sitting at the table from the start and knew your man had either aa kk or ace k!!!so easy fold

He wasnt getting 4:1.

Oh and ...
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 76.4204 % 74.95% 01.47% { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 23.5796 % 22.11% 01.47% { AQo }



Its still a call.

And you cant drop QQ/JJ from his hand range that easily.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Meh. If he showed me AK, KK or AA preflop, I would insta-fold. That odds malarky will only get ya in trouble

Thats why the chief pwns you

cooker3

imalegend wrote:

downlaod the 2004 final table coverage idiot and watch it...i watched him fold it...so u go and find it idiot!!!

lovely, and anyway I heard interview with him on circuit and he readily admitted he played terribly back at that final table and in general was not a good player back then so wouldn't exactly call it best example.

Gholimoli

imalegend wrote:

final table 2004 world series...david williams comes 2nd....1 hand ....dan harrington pushed all in from button with 73...williams in bb doesnt blink folding ace q suited...was he not getting odds or is he as stupid as me???

he didnt even blink make this decsion.

and plus i was sitting at the table from the start and knew your man had either aa kk or ace k!!!so easy fold

are you for real.
ofcourse he wasnt getting correct odds.
if you think these two situations can be compared then i will just have to say good luck to you knowing that your gonna need all the luck you can get in poker becuase you have clearly little understanding of how things work.
if you come here and post and give advice to others it would be good to be able to back it up with some logic/facts .if not at least keep and open mind to what is being said and accept that maybe you dont know it all and maybe you could be wrong .

imalegend

wasnt directed at u cooke..mistake on the post hence why i deleted it

modmuffin

With 10+BB here i would also fold if i had narrowed the 2nd guys range down to AA,KK or AK.

(However if the fitz DC lately ive seen players make that move with 99, KQ etc)

I dont particularly think the harrington/williams hand is all that relevent here.

At the end of the day AQ isnt all that strong facing a reraise & an all-in regardless of your pot odds, so i guess it boils down to if you feel its time to gamble or not

fuzzbox

cooker3 wrote:

Just say he had 30 bb left as an example and had to call all his chips off with AQ when he had the right price to call, is it correct there.

I don't claim to know correct answer either way but when does protecting your tournament life become more important then getting the right odds if ever?

With 30 left, the villains hand ranges narrow considerably, and AQ isnt as good a bet. Plus you have a good few chips left.

With 10 left, you dont, and the pot is big, and winning it would put you in with a great chance to win the tourney. If you fold and have 7 left, then you are in sh1tsville anyway.

I think you need to go after this big pot now.

Gholimoli

modmuffin wrote:

At the end of the day AQ isnt all that strong facing a reraise & an all-in regardless of your pot odds, so i guess it boils down to if you feel its time to gamble or not

do you know how wrong this is?
to say something is strong or weak regardsless of pot odds has no meaning what so ever.
and no it dosent boil down to whether or not you feel like a gable or not.
you say that when you knowingly taking the wore of it but not when your having the best of it.

imalegend

ok listen i understand i could be wrong but you also slating my comments and not accepting the fact poker is also situational.my argument is why call at pot odds of 4/1 if your not going to have the winning hand at the hand and that im pretty sure that i wont have the winning hand after 5 community cards??i had been at the table from the start of the night and the guy in seat 2 was a rock.hence why i have come out so strong about this hand.

im not directly comparing the 2 situations and just giving a slight comparision..

eoghan104

Gholimoli wrote:

are you for real.
ofcourse he wasnt getting correct odds.
if you think these two situations can be compared then i will just have to say good luck to you knowing that your gonna need all the luck you can get in poker becuase you have clearly little understanding of how things work.
if you come here and post and give advice to others it would be good to be able to back it up with some logic/facts .if not at least keep and open mind to what is being said and accept that maybe you dont know it all and maybe you could be wrong .

I think its a bit unfair to slate him here for not knowing exactly the pot odds........ its a very close call following the odds and is just about getting 4-1 so its not a straightforward no brainer.

I dont think he is trying to pretend he knows it all but if any one is you are. You arent listening to the opinion of others that make the point that Lazares tournament life is on the line when he makes the call and therefore does he want to risk that as a huge dog with what is not a terribly low stack at this stage of the tourney??

This forum is about advice and OPINIONS which everyone has the right to express. Alot of tough decisions in poker are not clear cut but are situational so everyone has the right to make their own judment without being slammed for it.

imalegend

the voice of reason eoghan!!hahaha

fuzzbox

imalegend wrote:

ok listen i understand i could be wrong but you also slating my comments and not accepting the fact poker is also situational.my argument is why call at pot odds of 4/1 if your not going to have the winning hand at the hand and that im pretty sure that i wont have the winning hand after 5 community cards??i had been at the table from the start of the night and the guy in seat 2 was a rock.hence why i have come out so strong about this hand.

im not directly comparing the 2 situations and just giving a slight comparision..

Poker is a numbers game.

Poker is a series of situations of conditional probability.

This is one of those situations. You are being offered 4:1 in a situation where you will win 1 in every 4 times (aka 3:1). If you wager 100 dollars 4 times in this situation, then you will win 400 dollars (the pot), once, but lose 100 dollars 3 times. Your profit is a total of 100 dollars. If you average that over the number of times you take the bet then your average profit is 25 dollars.

You wager 100 dollars, and you expect an average return of 125 dollars. That is 25% ..... that is a HUGE edge.

If you wait, then most likely you will end up taking one side of a 45/55 shot, or one side of a 60/40 shot.

The edge you are getting here, is bigger than the edge you will get at either of those spots.

You have only 10BBs left .... and your opponent (the rock) also has only 10BBs left. Thus his range is much bigger than AA/KK/AK, surely QQ/JJ and even AQ are included. Most ppl would also be happy to stick 10 BBs in with TT or even 99.
Some ppl would even go for it with 88 and 77 here.
And others would figure AJ/KQ would be enough.

If you all have 30BBs then his range for doing this usually tightens up, and AQ becomes less attractive, and it becomes more attractive to fold, as you have plenty of chips to play with .... besides, you wont have 4:1 odds in that situation anyway.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Thats why the chief pwns you

FYI the Chief has never pwned me. He has given me 2 bad beats and the rest of the time I've pwned him as once you know his style, his aggressive tendencies are easily exploitable.

ionapaul is the one who gets pwned by the Chief!

PS: Turn on your sarcasmometer

PPS: Folding AQo here is fine. If the table is soft enough and we can push random sh*t in subsequent hands that will take down the blinds.

PPPS: Iamalegend you're dead right. He would have lost the hand so you are right that folding was correct!

(just in case)

ianmc38

If my tournament life is on the line, I have 27o and I'm getting 5-1, and the other guy accidentally shows his AA, i don't care to call. Maybe that makes me a donk.

Gholimoli

eoghan104 wrote:

I think its a bit unfair to slate him here for not knowing exactly the pot odds........ its a very close call following the odds and is just about getting 4-1 so its not a straightforward no brainer.

I dont think he is trying to pretend he knows it all but if any one is you are. You arent listening to the opinion of others that make the point that Lazares tournament life is on the line when he makes the call and therefore does he want to risk that as a huge dog with what is not a terribly low stack at this stage of the tourney??

This forum is about advice and OPINIONS which everyone has the right to express. Alot of tough decisions in poker are not clear cut but are situational so everyone has the right to make their own judment without being slammed for it.

give me a break will you.
this form is about openions and people are free to express them.
however when openions appear in the form of advice and the the wording is “I don’t care what every one says ,this is a fold end of story” then I think it should either be backed up by some logic or kept privately .
We are not talking about “a lot of though poker decisions “ here .we are talking about a relatively easy one.
Its fine if he doesn’t know the correct odds of the call but the odds were later calculated and given to him yet he was still refusing to even think about them and was still coming up with silly examples to prove he is right when he is clearly not.
Next time you want to back some one up I suggest you read what’s being said and follow the thread carefully and if you have a hard time doing that then don’t do it cuz you just make your self look silly.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

If my tournament life is on the line, I have 27o and I'm getting 5-1, and the other guy accidentally shows his AA, i don't care to call. Maybe that makes me a donk.

Thats perfectly fine because

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 88.1996 % 87.99% 00.21% { AA }
Hand 2: 11.8004 % 11.59% 00.21% { 72o }

wtf ?