Upcoming Lee Morrison seminar

yomchi

Guys,
As you know Lee is coming back to Dublin in November 25th.

I was talking with him there the other day about what type of stuff he should cover for the day, I was saying the usual stuff plus some improvised weapons use etc

Has anyone any favourite topics that will be going to the seminar that I could put to Lee?
I thought at the last sem he covered a hell of a lot.

Any preferences?

Odysseus

Hi Jon, AFAIK Lee does some stuff around the concept of the shredder, unless I'm wrong. I would be interested in seeing his approach to this. Cheers.

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote:

Hi Jon, AFAIK Lee does some stuff around the concept of the shredder, unless I'm wrong. I would be interested in seeing his approach to this. Cheers.

Hey man,

Lee has written a book called the “Wolverine Within” looks like it might have some shredder type concepts in it. I know he trained with R. Dimitri at one point.
I bought some of Lee's manuals a while back – some pretty good stuff.

Cheers,

Robert.

BTW - did you do much of the Jim Wagner course?

Odysseus

Baggio... wrote:

Hey man,

Lee has written a book called the “Wolverine Within” looks like it might have some shredder type concepts in it. I know he trained with R. Dimitri at one point.
I bought some of Lee's manuals a while back – some pretty good stuff.

Cheers,

Robert.

BTW - did you do much of the Jim Wagner course?

Hi mate, cheers for the info, I'm not a hugh fan of the shredder, but I would be interested in Lees approach to it, everyone adapts concepts to suit themselves, so just my viewpoint.

Maybe this shows my age and lack of internet knowledge, not sure what BTW is, but your were asking about Jim's stuff, I've done five days with him over a period of time. My thoughts on it are overall I would recommend it, especially the ground and knife survival, in my opinion there good. I would disagree with some of Jim's ideas and moves, but with saying that I think if you just lable his stuff as irrelavent sh*te, for wannba special forces fantasy heads, I really think your throwing the baby out with the bath water. I get sent on training with my job, even when I get sent on something I like I would never agree with everything there, but that does not mean that I have not learned something that I use, so I try apply that outlook to my RBSD as well. Cheers mate.

SorGan

By the way : btw

Odysseus

SorGan wrote:

By the way : btw

Ah It becomes clear now, cheers;)

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote:

not sure what BTW is, but your were asking about Jim's stuff, I've done five days with him over a period of time.

Hey man,

Sorry about that. I had to get my girlfriend to show me all this geek speak .

I was just curious about the Wagner stuff, because I've heard some semi-decent reports about it recently. So I was just wondering what you thought of it. Did you go for the instructor package? I wouldn't do it myself to be honest, because I feel it's over priced. Plus, I have the knowledge from the other CQC I've been doing anyhoo. But good on anyone who's done it or about to.

I'm not a mad fan of the shredder either. I definitely think it has a place, but more for a rape situation or summit. That said, I really like Dimitri's other stuff – he's done some top notch research. But I think it would be great to see what Lee has come up with from the shredder.

Catch you later,

B.

yomchi

Lee's book the Wolverine within is more for Womens rape prevention as far as I know.
Yeh he trained with Richard Demitri a few times and has his own ideas on the shredder, I think he mentioned it in the last seminar he did.
The improvised weapons is going to be interesting, I got Lee's DVD on it and its highly effective, man does he put together good DVD's!
Im looking forward to him coming over.

Any one here attending?

Odysseus

I'm interseted Jon, could you pm with details etc. Cheers mate

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

The improvised weapons is going to be interesting, I got Lee's DVD on it and its highly effective, man does he put together good DVD's!
Im looking forward to him coming over.

Have you seen the demo he did on the fight back dvd with the Key and the cardboard? Very cool.:D

yomchi

Baggio... wrote:

Have you seen the demo he did on the fight back dvd with the Key and the cardboard? Very cool.:D

No I didn't see it, I must get my hands on it!

Ody - I pm'd you mate

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

No I didn't see it, I must get my hands on it!

It's pretty cool. He gets one of his assistants to hold up a few sheets of thick cardboard and slashes it with a key multiple times (while using a forward lunge). It carves the crap out of it. Just wonder what it would do to someone's face. Nasty....

It's definitely worth the cash there is a lot of very cool material on the DVD set.

Cheers,

R.

yomchi

Baggio... wrote:

It's pretty cool. He gets one of his assistants to hold up a few sheets of thick cardboard and slashes it with a key multiple times (while using a forward lunge). It carves the crap out of it. Just wonder what it would do to someone's face. Nasty....

It's definitely worth the cash there is a lot of very cool material on the DVD set.

Cheers,

R.

Yeh his stuff is very professional, he'll be doing some card board carving in November! On the DVD I have of improvised weapons the car key gets stuck in the dummy's head.. and they ain't soft!

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

Yeh his stuff is very professional, he'll be doing some card board carving in November! On the DVD I have of improvised weapons the car key gets stuck in the dummy's head.. and they ain't soft!

It makes a change from some of the DVDs that I have seen. Where the production is crap and the tuition is very amateurish. Lee did well to use those guys (forgotten the companies name). He's good in front of the camera too. I think Mick will be using the same dudes for his stuff.

Cool thing about keys, is that they are nice and ragged so they can cut quite badly. Of course after the slice you can then start to use it as a puncturing implement, but you would have to target the face to get a good effect – not that I advocate puncturing people with keys. (don't try it at home kids )

Later,

R.

SorGan

Baggio... wrote:

It makes a change from some of the DVDs that I have seen. Where the production is crap and the tuition is very amateurish. Lee did well to use those guys (forgotten the companies name). He's good in front of the camera too. I think Mick will be using the same dudes for his stuff.

Cool thing about keys, is that they are nice and ragged so they can cut quite badly. Of course after the slice you can then start to use it as a puncturing implement, but you would have to target the face to get a good effect – not that I advocate puncturing people with keys. (don't try it at home kids )

Later,

R.

eeer...........not cool,
id still use em if it "went bad" but id throw a chair first( its the kid in me likes to chuck stuff ):)

Millionaire

yeah I got Fight Back.. its is a great DVD. He also has another one similar to fight back which I think is good, sort of same material but a differetn angle... he only sells that one, if you contact him and ask him.

Also just got the one, which has outtakes from various seminars and classes... its good to see, to get an idea of how they train.

john kavanagh

Baggio... wrote:

It's pretty cool. It carves the crap out of it. Just wonder what it would do to someone's face. Nasty....

Baggio... wrote:

Cool thing about keys is that they are nice and ragged so they can cut quite badly. Of course after the slice you can then start to use it as a puncturing implement, but you would have to target the face to get a good effect

:eek:

Budo.Judo.Kev

I think some car keys are coming with infrared/magnetic strip things so you won't have your jagged edges in the year 2030. :eek: :eek:

Roper

My car has a key-card, and it has rounded edges so it doesn't rip your pocket lining. Imagine what that would do to a guys face!

Baggio...

john kavanagh wrote:

:eek:

Baggio...

Mobile phones were great back in the 80's, be like hitting someone with a brick!
But as they are so small now - I think you would be better of clocking someone with your hands instead.

Mick Coup

Believe it or not mate, you're better off hitting someone with your hands than most of the 'improvised weapons' out there, including keys.

Ripping lumps out of someone isn't actually as effective as a good solid bang in the head - messy but not a high-percentage 'stop'. It's true that you can turn anything into a weapon, but it's usually a crap weapon if you look at it objectively! Unless it gives a distinct advantage, such as increased 'stopping' (not just wounding - big difference) power, range and/or durability it generally falls into the 'gimmick' category.

Mick

Millionaire

Mick Coup wrote:

Believe it or not mate, you're better off hitting someone with your hands than most of the 'improvised weapons' out there, including keys.

Ripping lumps out of someone isn't actually as effective as a good solid bang in the head - .

Mick

Like the simplicity of that... a good solid bang on the head! excellent!

Baggio...

Mick Coup wrote:

Believe it or not mate, you're better off hitting someone with your hands

Hi Mick,

How's it going?

I'd agree with you there Personally I'd always go for my hands (unless I could grab an iron bar or something like that ).

I thought a key would be good, for say a women (who had no experience of hitting) who was being attacked in a car park. It might be good just to slash at the guys face, just enough so she could get some time to eescape.

Of course there is that whole “accessibility” issue, but I'm assuming the person should have the where with all to be holding a key in the first place.

But you right, as most of the improv weapons are crap. I even saw a guy using a coke can recently...err what's next?

Cheers,

Rob.

Budo.Judo.Kev

Pepsi can.

yomchi

Yes I agree, if you are a decent size and/or have experience in striking and striking in a FC method, a good cuppedhand blow is highly effective. However for those who have little striking capability or experience/confidence- keys, phones and pens are a viable and sometime nessessary option.

Mick Coup

Generally there's 3 certain ways of stopping a human:

1. Kill them - actually very difficult, regardless of what movies you've seen, plus outside of the moral reach for most.

2. Incapacitate via trauma - causing so much injury that the person is physically incapable of doing anything offensive, including pulling a trigger. Very difficult and distasteful for most - would be an aerobic workout with a key or pen implement.

3. Incapacitate via knock out - actually the easiest and most accessible of all the above. Can't be done effectively by any means other than direct impact to the head/neck area. Puncture/slash wounds won't have this effect.

I personally hate 'gimmicks' and tricks that are pushed out as real solutions, attacking the eyes with the thumbs is as effective, more in fact, than going mad with a key - especially for women.

A lot of this stuff looks more effective than it really is, and there is always the thought of the slashing etc scaring people to the point where they back off - problem is, that's an awfully big positive assumption to make, I've used all manner of 'tools' for real and it's not as simple as that - more often than not it drives the aggressor into a panic/frenzy and amidst all the red mess I've had to revert back to 'speed dial #1' and just bang a big dose of sleep into them!

Mick

Budo.Judo.Kev

Would choking/strangling the guy out come under option 3 mick?

yomchi

But you right, as most of the improv weapons are crap. I even saw a guy using a coke can recently...err what's next?

But isn't that part of the concept of 'combatives/RBSD' to use what ever is handy and when circumstances dictate, I've seen Richard Demitri use his belt, his shoe and a local stool.. a smack of a coke can (full that is) would be effective!

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

But isn't that part of the concept of 'combatives/RBSD' to use what ever is handy and when circumstances dictate, I've seen Richard Demitri use his belt, his shoe and a local stool.. a smack of a coke can (full that is) would be effective!

Hey mate,

I guess it is a big part of RBSD, but some guys are more into it than others. I don't think Mick has any in his C2 system (right Mick?). Where Lee has quite a bit and advocates the carrying tactical flashlights/pens, etc.
Coke can and shoes... don't like 'em myself. Coke cans are too awkward to hold - I'd rather puck the guy in the head with my palm. And the dreaded "shoe"... I've seen Dmitri use it. It's a poor weapon IMHO, plus bending down to access it is madness. In fact you would not have the time. Don't get me wrong, I really like Richard Dimitre's stuff - very cool. At least Lee advocates drills accessing improv weapons and proper placement. I've seen the shoe used as a defensive weapon against knife in various TMA classes - sheer folly.
Now snooker balls in a sock on the other hand...;)

I don't carry anything myself tbh, buit that's just me.

Cheers,

R.

Mick Coup

Rob,

I teach everything from empty hands, to impact and bladed weapons all the way to the tactical use of personal firearms, and I have taught the use of improvised and concealed weapons extensively, including to specialist military units from various countries, not to mention having used virtually every conceivable object as a weapon throughout various live encounters - the point I'm making here is that some things are effective, and that some things are gimmicks that don't perform as well for real as they do in training - often they may look 'nasty' but can be a hinderance in actual usage.

A lighter and weaker person can render a man unconscious - during the late 80's I was teaching women almost exclusively as an advisor for a division of the Metropolitan Police and used to subject them to padded assailant drills using some of the first FIST gear in the UK, we had numerous big tough padded assailants knocked clean out by some tiny girls who just got stuck in with basic repeated strikes. I did cover improvised sharp weapons on that course also, but mainly as anti-grappling tools, with any space it's all about impact if you're giving away weight and/or strength, as it's the most efficient way of delivering 'stopping' force to an individual.

As I stated in my earlier post, any item can be transformed into a weapon, this is true. But it's usually a CRAP weapon! In the vast majority of cases a simple bare hand blow, not even from an especially powerful person, will produce more stopping power. Period!

The crucial thing is that most items such as keys and pens will cause a superficial wound only. It's a malicious thing, that's all. This stuff isn't training theory to me, I assure you. Forget Hollywood stuff when it comes to 'fashionable' improvised weapons. It's generally all bollocks!

The amazing 'access' sequences of grabbing some 'innocuous' item and employing sometimes elaborate blows, are most often ridiculous if you stop to think "Could I have just piled in barehanded instead?" - as the answer is generally "Yes" and you'd be landing credible shots long before you would have some half-cooked 'weapon' in your hand!

My advice is to only consider using something as a weapon if it affords a real and distinct advantage concerning reach and/or stopping power.

If it doesn't it is a foolish gimmick that will probably make a situation worse and prolonged.

I'm not talking mere cynicism here - you name it and I've more than likely had a real go with it! I taught the use of such items to an 'interesting' group once upon a time, and it quickly became apparent with research, practice and actual use 'operationally' what worked, better than a bare hand, and what didn't.

Making lots of little holes in someone with a pen or a key looks fabulously deadly in a movie, but is a different reality when done for real - it's messy and might dissuade a half-hearted attacker (wish I had more of that type!) but a decent right hand will end the encounter. It's as simple as that.

If getting shot and stabbed with real purpose-built weapons, several times, won't stop committed attackers, what is your biro, key, mobile phone or 'tactical' (ie is black and has a clip!) torch going to do? Get real for goodness sake! As I've stated so many times already, wounding isn't enough - it's 'stopping' that needs to be done, and surpisingly enough this can be done often more easily with an empty hand. The blunt empty hand causes head 'displacement' and shakes the brain - whereas a sharp pointy object causes penetration, but little head movement. Jagged slashes across a face may cause someone to back off, but they have next to no 'stopping' power - so they may do the exact opposite - you wouldn't stop me with a facial wound, or any number of guys that I know, you'd just start me properly.

Sharp pointy things like pens are great for breaking a clinch - sometimes! They rely on pain, which is a wholly subjective animal. They can be used to extract passively resisting people from vehicles etc. In short they work on people you don't actually need to use them on.

You want to have a real fight with a credit card, pen, mobile? Get ready to be VERY surprised. Just a note on using a mobile phone here - as Rob stated above most of the units currently out there don't improve upon the Mk1 hand at all - in terms of weight or durability - and tactically it is a VERY bad idea to destroy a means of communication in such an emergency - just a thought.

Sticking a pen, or pencil, key, in any fashion, into someone's neck is far less efficient than a good bang on the jaw - when it comes to instantly incapacitating someone.

You're talking about wounding, not stopping, someone - and that won't be enough.

Are you trying to end the attack through making the guy bleed to death? I hope you're a patient man! What effect will it have upon the guy? Do you think that some crazy will just stop and either a) roll over, or b) run away, when you stab him in the neck with your pen or key? Maybe you'll make the situation a whole lot worse for yourself, when you could have ended it early.

Sure you can puncture a major blood vessel, with enough holes to cause a massive bleed-out, but this is the only way it's going to be effective - talking of movies this would be the 'Casino' method - are you really prepared to do that, or do you just tell yourself that you could, at the time? Don't take killing a man for granted.

Ask, could that situation have been resolved with blows to the jaw? Of course it could, but they needed to establish the character's viciousness, so something extreme was used.

Using a pen mid-fight? We're talking 'Bourne Identity' I suppose - fabulous fight-scene I agree, very nasty, but the pen was ineffective - even in the scene!

Stop looking for the same gimmicks that Hollywood looks for - they're trying to give the audience something new and exciting, whereas you can more than make do with a plain-old punch or elbow to the jaw!

Continued......

Mick Coup

Continued.....

Think 'stopping power' everytime. When you consider the use of any small item as an improvised weapon apply these tests:

1. Can it produce instant incapacitation like a basic punch-type technique?

2. Can it be instantly accessed like a basic punch-type technique?

3. Will it withstand repeated use like a basic punch-type technique?

If you get just one 'No' then stick to the punch.

If you can 'pick something up and hit someone', then fine - but you could have just 'hit someone' - even the sentence is shorter and easier to say! Do you get the point?

Anything held in the hand limits the hand - so it had better be worth it!

Small hard heavy objects that increase impact by virtue of weight and/or striking surface are real improvised weapons - such as rocks, pool balls, steam irons etc. What real damage is a mobile phone going to do? Less than a punch without it, is the real answer.

The best use for handheld objects like phones and the like that have no combative stopping power is that of 'Distraction' - throw the item at the face and follow-up with good solid explosive shots to the primary targets. Either 'casually' flick/toss the thing and pile in, or full-on 'launch' the object for maximum 'flinch' distraction, then unload with all you've got.

This way, everything CAN actually become a weapon, but of DISTRACTION. Even a screwed up piece of paper, food/drink, a wallet, a coat - something you might actually have in your hand at the time!

I realise that what I'm outlining above might be controversial - to some, but those of you that have 'been there' and not just 'researched' or 'practised' it, know the truth of the matter.

Don't rely on gimmicks.

I most definately don't discount the use of certain items as weapons - the ashtray definately fits my criteria of an object that lends weight and decent striking surface - and it used to be one of my weapons of choice in a bar situation - however it has to be said that they can disintegrate under repeated heavy use and I have the marks on my hand to prove it!

I don't completely discount the use of the pen either - again it used to be one of the main tools I taught to a certain group of professionals once upon a time, and I have used it on several occasions. Read above and you will see that I wholeheartedly agree that repeated blows to the neck will cause potentially fatal blows - but then ask yourself how many people would be prepared to do that?

As for screwdrivers and suchlike, I don't even class these as 'improvised' weapons - they are the real thing!

I disagree in some ways with the notion of pyschological advantage - in that I believe any 'perceived' advantage can be dangerous, if it is merely pyschological, and not physical. Not discounting the pyschological aspects of combat obviously, without will there is no chance, but ultimately the immediate problem is fairly physical after all!

I am brutally honest when I teach, and when I learn, I want a 'real' advantage, not just a 'pyschological' one. Just because you or I can perform in the extreme, doesn't enable everyone else to. Like I have stated earlier, I believe many people ignore the gravity of certain issues - to a point that believing that they can blind and maim, and kill, is taken for granted.

I would rather focus on solid dependable skills, that I know will be employed when needed, rather than something so extreme that it will require a superhuman act of resolve to execute - maybe. We play the hand we are dealt in life mate, it is better to realise limitations and seek ways to avoid, than to fool ourselves into a false sense of security, with perceived abilities.

I have seen people fight on with the most horrific wounds, that often I have caused, and still pose a very real threat - and in the line of work that I choose I will most probably see so again. Stab wounds are often perceived as punches, and only take effect when shock sets in, so this in itself proves that wounding is not instantly incapacitating. Often stab, and gunshot, victims do not realise they have been wounded until after the incident - sometimes even being alerted to the fact by a third party. And they might have even 'won' the encounter!

What I do know, for a fact, is that an unconscious man poses zero threat, compared to a severely-wounded man who might go either way; curl up in a ball or make a frenzied last-ditch assault.

But my main reason for the cynical approach to the current fashion of 'improvised weapons' - which you must concede can start to get a little ridiculous, is to encourage people to stop looking at 'gimmicks' to give a quick fix - and leave that to the 'ninja/special agent' subculture types (apologies to any real ninjas/special agents out there!).

I will always steer people interested in REAL self-protecion away from such things and concentrate instead on the core skills. If you are some covert-operative - fine, one day you might want to drive a stainless-steel pen into someone's subclavial region, or a gangland enforcer might elect to 'stripe' a rival with a credit card as punishment, or maybe you want to 'plunge' another convict on the landing with a sharpened heat-hardened toothbrush handle - but I guarantee a simple, boring, punch on the jaw, or two or three, with plenty of practice will serve you better.

Apologies for the rant guys - but it's a pet hate!

Mick

Mick Coup

Budo.Judo.Kev,

Chokes and strangles are definately in the No.3 category mate, but not as efficient as an instant impact-based KO, they tend to be a little compromising when it comes to multiples.

Banging someone with a full can of coke is worthwhile, so long as you happen to have it in your hand, like anything else - with weapons of any description it all down to access.

Mick

Baggio...

Mick Coup wrote:

Apologies for the rant guys - but it's a pet hate!

No worries mate - a very informative post to be sure. I'm with you though, I generally would not go near an improv weapon unless it gave me a really decent advantage (as you said).

Cheers,

R.

Roper

Mick,
I have about zero interest in combatives or RBSD. (Just putting that in as a sort of disclaimer!) The reason is generally because an awful lot of it goes against what I fundamentally understand from hitting and grappling with other athletes on a regular basis. Quick fixes, what will immobilise an attcker etc. But what you say makes far more sense to me and more consistent with what most guys would see from a 'sporting' aspect then most of the stuff I read on the subject.

Just something I've noticed, people have me pegged as anti-RBSD but its only because I don't buy some of the stuff I see and hear.

Barry

Baggio...

Why don't you go along to the seminar?

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Why don't you go along to the seminar?

Because

Me wrote:

I have about zero interest in combatives or RBSD.

I'm sure its great but if I'm going to spend money on a seminar, I'd have to be interested in it.

Millionaire

yeah, I like the simplicity of the basic idea of a "good bang on the jaw" punch, elbow, cup hand palm.

You basic delievery system of boxing. kicboxing, thai, will also help get that right. Geoff Thompson in one of this podcast..(July one) I think pretty ,much to me has the same ideal.

Right now it mainly Thai I am doing, with a little combatives practice. but I know that with the Thai, and the speed and power I train daily on my punches, that converts very easily to an open handed cup strike/Slap for me,which is probably my fav, and I can for some reason, get more power into my slap, than the right cross, for some reason.

Basic well trained strikes, employed in a forward movement with the right mindset, will usually win the day, in a street confrontation.

One pretty "handy" man I know in Dublin, who has 20 years on the doors, and is kickboxing in mugendo since a kid (was world champ in FC Kickboxing for years) (he 40 now), basically a right and a few hooks are his bread and butter.

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

I'm sure its great but if I'm going to spend money on a seminar, I'd have to be interested in it.

Fair enough...But Mick spends a lot of time on correct body mechanics and could show you how to increase you impact by a seizable amount. Don't take my word for it though - ask any of the guys that attended Mick first seminar. Everyone's power increased on the day - to me that's worth the price.
But if you are not interested in being able to hit harder then that's cool.

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Fair enough...But Mick spends a lot of time on correct body mechanics and could show you how to increase you impact by a seizable amount. Don't take my word for it though - ask any of the guys that attended Mick first seminar. Everyone's power increased on the day - to me that's worth the price.
But if you are not interested in being able to hit harder then that's cool.

Hey, I have a boxing coach for that. Cheers anyway.;) I'm sure Mick's great at teaching people how to hit harder, but then you were from a Kenpo background weren't you?

Take it handy,
Barry

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

Hey, I have a boxing coach for that. Cheers anyway.;) I'm sure Mick's great at teaching people how to hit harder, but then you were from a Kenpo background weren't you?

Indeedy... Plus 3 years of boxing (on and off).

Oh, Did I ever mention Combatives? - which has full emphasis on striking and impact development (without the convoluted sports aspect)

Budo.Judo.Kev

Roper wrote:

Hey, I have a boxing coach for that. Cheers anyway.;) I'm sure Mick's great at teaching people how to hit harder, but then you were from a Kenpo background weren't you?

Take it handy,
Barry

OOH Burn.

Mick Coup

Just a thought here guys, my previously mentioned opinions on the utilisation of certain improvised weapons must be taken in context - where limitations are considered before capabilities, so there are no nasty surprises when it 'doesn't do what it says on the box' when the chips are down and the stakes are high!

This is my major gripe against this subject in particular and the way the 'RBSD' movement can sometimes make a 'silver bullet' out of it, when they should be doing good solid and functional training first.

Practising a thousand ways to maim and disfigure a man whilst 'tooled up' can often lead people down the wrong path, and such acts are often taken far too lightly in my opinion, if a person is going to baulk at the notion of punching someone in the face as hard as is physically possible - and more than you imagine do - then what chance do you stand ripping a hole in a face. Most people will say, "but if I had to I could" and they'd be making a great big fat assumption, a positive one that isn't qualified and could fail badly - unless they have already done it.

Learning 'offensive knife' and suchlike from instructors who have never had a knife in hand whilst facing another man can be a touch 'off' in my book, as is living some 'tactical lifestyle' where you're always equipped with some item that will 'save your life' - it gets a little out 'there', I save my 'tactical' lifestyle for work, when I operate in environments where people literally do try to kill me every single day by some means either directly or indirectly. Guess what, day to day I really don't project a 360 degree sphere of constant awareness around myself - and the big secret is neither does anyone else, whatever they claim - I sit with my back to the door in restuarants, never have a steel pen 'ready' or carry a torch on a daily basis.

I guess I must be living on borrowed time - but at least it's living!

All the above aside, I realise this was originally a thread concerning the upcoming Lee Morrison seminar and want to establish my full support and endorsement for Lee - he is an outstanding instructor and operator, and has researched old and new methodology with amazing detail and dedication. His training events are always superb and I would not hesitate to recommend any such seminar to someone interested in a combative approach to whatever style or system they may practice. In short, get stuck in - you won't regret it.

If you want to continue the above discussion, I welcome your questions over on my forum - the link is somewhere above - as I reckon I've hijacked this thread enough for now!

Mick

Baggio

Baggio wrote:

It's pretty cool. He gets one of his assistants to hold up a few sheets of thick cardboard and slashes it with a key multiple times (while using a forward lunge). It carves the crap out of it. Just wonder what it would do to someone's face. Nasty....

Baggio wrote:

Cool thing about keys, is that they are nice and ragged so they can cut quite badly. Of course after the slice you can then start to use it as a puncturing implement, but you would have to target the face to get a good effect – not that I advocate puncturing people with keys. (don't try it at home kids )

This sounds like the kind of fixation with damaging people and hard-on for streetlethal fvcking up people's faces that Mick Coup seems to be speaking out against.

Mick,

You've really represented yourself incredibly well. Your wise words are a refreshing change from the paranoid million weapons and lets gouge some eyes approach that many RBSD people seem to advocate. You seem to have a "theres nothing to be proud of damaging people" attitude towards SD.

Your advice appears to be "train in the fundamentals people- lose the gimmicks and the internet ordered ankle knives" IMO what your suggesting is basically thai boxing mixed with some greco roman wrestling. Master that then consider other stuff.

Colum

Baggio...

columok wrote:

IMO what your suggesting is basically thai boxing mixed with some greco roman wrestling. Master that then consider other stuff.

Col,

I don't think thats quite accurate tbh (now, I'm sure Mick will correct me here if I'm off target). Mick's system "boils" every down and concentrates on the fundamentals (the stuff that will work under pressure). But everything needed is contained within the C2 curriculum, power striking, anti-grappling, mindset etc. I don't think elements such as greco roman wrestling or thai really come into it. Mick very much has his own way of doing things. Essentally master the basics, and that's the stuff you will need when the time comes. Again, Mick can explain his system better than I ever could.

Now, Lee's stuff uses quite a bit of "greco roman wrestling" and "thai Boxing".

Both dudes have very good systems, and are worth checking out.

columok wrote:

This sounds like the kind of fixation with damaging people and hard-on for streetlethal fvcking up people's faces that Mick Coup seems to be speaking out against.

True enough... But personally I'd never use a key in a fight, I'd just clock someone instead. But I think a key would be good for a woman say in a car park that had very little experience of striking. And could just slash wildly to the guys face - most of these guys want an easy time. So it might be enough for him to run and find an easier target.

But I do like the demo Lee does.:)

Robert.

Millionaire

Baggio... wrote:

Now, Lee's stuff uses quite a bit of "greco roman wrestling" and "thai Boxing".


.

Yes, he uses alot of "greco roman" moves to "throw" the attacker to floor, after a few strikes.

I was impressed with the "greco" moves... actually I did not realise thats where the moves came from. I do know he recommends greco as a good system to train in.

Of course the knees and elbows are very similar to thai, and he got the standard combatives strikes.

Baggio...

Millionaire wrote:

I was impressed with the "greco" moves... actually I did not realise thats where the moves came from. I do know he recommends greco as a good system to train

I really like Lee's "snapdowns", I see GT uses them quite a bit too.

yomchi

Baggio... wrote:

I really like Lee's "snapdowns", I see GT uses them quite a bit too.

Yeh we were drilling these last week in class, moving from a clinch position throwing the knees in and turning 360 to take in a full view of the surroundings then using the snatch to put the person to the floor followed up by some stamping to the limbs...all good fun!

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

Yeh we were drilling these last week in class, moving from a clinch position throwing the knees in and turning 360 to take in a full view of the surroundings then using the snatch to put the person to the floor followed up by some stamping to the limbs...all good fun!

Sweet!

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

Yeh we were drilling these last week in class, moving from a clinch position throwing the knees in and turning 360 to take in a full view of the surroundings then using the snatch to put the person to the floor followed up by some stamping to the limbs...all good fun!

Thats a brilliant technique.... last years someone I knew, was drunk, and got very aggressive with me, as I knew them, and knew their form with drink, it did not warrent knees and elbows, so when he went for me, I simply very fast put my hands over his eyes, spun him around so I m chest to his back, and gently took him to the floor... it very nicely without hurting anyone, got the message across that his drunken violence and aggression was not welcome!

A lovely technique!

Budo.Judo.Kev

Millionaire wrote:

Thats a brilliant technique.... last years someone I knew, was drunk, and got very aggressive with me, as I knew them, and knew their form with drink, it did not warrent knees and elbows, so when he went for me, I simply very fast put my hands over his eyes, spun him around so I m chest to his back, and gently took him to the floor... it very nicely without hurting anyone, got the message across that his drunken violence and aggression was not welcome!

A lovely technique!

The anti-grappler grapples again.