What Irish political party would you like to see disappear and why?

Collie D

I was stuck between FF for the obvious reasons and the SWP but decided to go for the latter. I would consider myself socialist in outlook but these guys really get up my nose. From the ones I have met, they seem to come from fairly well-off backgrounds with well-to-do daddies and it's merely a form of rebellion or it was the first society they got roped into in Trinity. They are more interested in whatever campaign America or Israel is involved in than social issues in Ireland. In short, all moan and no solution.

darkman2

Collie D wrote:

I was stuck between FF for the obvious reasons and the SWP but decided to go for the latter. I would consider myself socialist in outlook but these guys really get up my nose. From the ones I have met, they seem to come from fairly well-off backgrounds with well-to-do daddies and it's merely a form of rebellion or it was the first society they got roped into in Trinity. They are more interested in whatever campaign America or Israel is involved in than social issues in Ireland. In short, all moan and no solution.

Sinn Fein. Also would like to see the Greens disappear too.

Collie D

darkman2 wrote:

Sinn Fein. Also would like to see the Greens disappear too.

Any particular reasons?

Cronus333

Well lets see.... I'm inclined towards Fianna Fail, as all the other parties are ideological:

Fine Gael: Christian Democracy
Labour: Social Democracy
PD: Classical Liberals
Greens: Green Politics
Sinn Fein: Nationalist

I might disagree with some them (Labour) and others outright scare me (Sinn Fein) but in reality I couldn't make myself wish the obliteration of any party in a democratic state, including FF or SF, as they represent specific ways of thinking, even if I disagree with them, we would be poorer for their absense.

gandalf

Sinn Fein, they are a front organisation for Criminals.

constitutionus

PDs, two percent of the population in the form of big business run this country anyway. they dont need a political wing

Collie D

constitutionus wrote:

PDs, two percent of the population in the form of big business run this country anyway. they dont need a political wing

Can't believe I forgot them, how are they in government again?

Time Magazine

Collie D wrote:

From the ones I have met, they seem to come from fairly well-off backgrounds with well-to-do daddies and it's merely a form of rebellion or it was the first society they got roped into in Trinity.

The Socialist party in Trinity is quite inactive, has been for many years, and is occupied primarily by academic socialists rather than socialist activists.

And incidentally, what would be wrong with children of wealthy people supporting socialism? Would it be wrong for a working-class kid to support the PDs?

Oh, and without a doubt, Sinn Féin.

Collie D

Ibid wrote:

The Socialist party in Trinity is quite inactive, has been for many years, and is occupied primarily by academic socialists rather than socialist activists.

And incidentally, what would be wrong with children of wealthy people supporting socialism? Would it be wrong for a working-class kid to support the PDs?

Oh, and without a doubt, Sinn Féin.

I would definitely consider it wrong for a member of the working class to vote PD. But then again, that's what democracy is all about but I can't imagine they get many votes in working class areas, remember one ran for the Dail in my constituency and polled a very small number of votes - can't remember how many but it was pathetically low for a government party.

Kevster

I'd like to see them all go because no matter which party wins an election the same things will reoccur: Lies, government slur in the press, protestsby certain groups of people, et cetera, et cetera...

stepbar

Sinn Fein.

thegoth

I am working class and will be voting for PDs this time.

The reason is that they are most in touch with the ordinary person. They are not worried about being too PC.

They believe that a someone who gets up early every morning and does a hard days work, should not support someone who chooses to sit on their ass all day and do nothing.

Also, they realise that the public sector is not underfunded. I work in the public health sector and let me tell everyone here that the problem is not money, its the staff.

People making sure they use all their sick days as holidays. People coming in 15 minutes late and leaving 10 minutes early every day. People taking 40 minute moring breaks as well as one hour lunches. Porters sitting down talking about matches. Lab people joking about how handy they have it. The list is endless.

The PDs are the only party that have the balls to try and tackle this issue. The easy things to do is stick with the status quo. They have choosen the hard option and I respect them for it.

Look at Michael McDowell and the Garda reserves. Great idea. I know they are not trained nearly as well as a Guard, but they dont need to be. I work in IT, and I would welcome someone to help he that has done 100 hours of training. I dont need a four BSc for all the tasks I do, but I have it for what I need it for. Same as nurses, they welcome nurses aid for doing jobs that less training is required for.

Would love to get rid of the Greens and Sinn Feinn. There policies boil down to the government giving social welfare to everyone just for sitting on their asses. JOKE. If no one works, who pays taxes?!!

One final discrace. This 1,000 euro per child that parents of children under 6 are getting from today in order to help pay for childcare costs. Good idea. But why on earth are parents that are not working getting it too !!!! This is nearly as good as travellers I know getting busses to a local community center, even thought they have cars, getting fed and paid, so that they do homework with children. Totally discrimation against everyone else. If travellers have it, why can't everyone. And before anyone calls me a racist, I'm not. Just stating a fact.

Jackie laughlin

Just a few comments.

Kevster above wants to treat politics with disdain. He's a cynic and cynicism is a political perspective which is seldom dealt with by opponents.

All political parties are ideological. Some like to pretend that they are not as "ideology" has been turned into a term of abuse.

Parties cannot be made to disappear in a democracy. Argument can be used to undermine them.

Many of the contributors above would like to see an end to SF because they deplore their fascism, yet the media talk in terms of their role in "the peace process". The Greens offer nothing that any other party could not offer, i.e. an enlightened policy on the environment. One always has to ask a Green is he or she socialist, liberal or conservative. (Don't expect a considered answer.) The overwhelming problem is the dominance of neo-liberal orthodoxy.

By the way, it would be a mistake to confuse class consciousness with being sociologically working class.

Diorraing

gandalf wrote:

Sinn Fein, they are a front organisation for Criminals.

I thought the IMC gave them a clean bill of health. Maybe you're more qualified to comment on the issue than they are?
Quit living in the past! FF were criminals once.

darkman2

Collie D wrote:

Any particular reasons?

Yes: Sinn Fein couldnt organise a Piss up in a brewery, have the craziest of policies and are backed by a criminal organisation.

The Greens are tree-huggers. How much progress would we make with them in power - they just object, object, object to everything.

Kevster

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Just a few comments.

Kevster above wants to treat politics with disdain. He's a cynic and cynicism is a political perspective which is seldom dealt with by opponents.

That's certainly true - I'm completely disillusioned by the way the world works. In truth, however, I'm just depressed.

Mick86

Diorraing wrote:

I thought the IMC gave them a clean bill of health. Maybe you're more qualified to comment on the issue than they are?

Ha ha. Very good. Do you do stand up on a regular basis?

Diorraing wrote:

Quit living in the past! FF were criminals once.

What do you mean, once?

In answer to the original question, all Irish political parties should be disbanded and their members neutered to stop them reproducing. All Irish politicians are incompetent buffoons and an embarrassment. The country could be better run by a committee formed from senior members of the ICA.

InFront

I feel the same as Mick above, except instead of the ICA, I would replace all politicians with The Hoff.

Alternatively... we could just accept that all parties have their failings, and despite their arrogance, inefficiencies, some disastrous economics theories, disrespect and diplomatic blunders, all have been democratically elected and have the right to exist. Even Sinn Fein. Unfortunately.

Bah, Im still going with The Hoff.

ninty9er

The PDs. They ultimately belong in FF or FG and only exist cos Charlie Haughey was an ignorant Leader and the FG crowd felt they weren't being heard.

I'd say FG but that would cause a swing to the left like we saw in Europe a few years back with disastrous effects.

The Current govt. has encouraged economic growth and development and FF has been the driving force.

SF are just a joke, and if they were ordinary decent non "stronly- anti- British" people would probably join the Socialists

Húrin

I would like to see Fine Gael disappear and Fianna Fáil to fracture, and end this Civil War division once and for all.

Sinn Fein are a bit worrying now, they could do with vanishing.

I despise the Socialist party (the Anti-America party). Not that America shouldn't be criticised, but anti-Americanism shouldn't form the basis of a party. What I dislike about them most is their proliferation of leaflets. Every protest they have is an exercise in pollution.

Cronus333 wrote:

PD: Classical Liberals

They're much more moderate than that.

antSionnach

H&#250 wrote: »

I would like to see Fine Gael disappear and Fianna Fáil to fracture, and end this Civil War division once and for all.

Civil war division . Its not 1950 anymore, these people do speak to one another now...
Getting rid of FG and then splitting FF? Is there not a bit of a contradiction there?

Húrin

thegoth wrote:

Would love to get rid of the Greens and Sinn Feinn. There policies boil down to the government giving social welfare to everyone just for sitting on their asses. JOKE. If no one works, who pays taxes?!!

Well I agree that Sinn Fein's proposals are unworkable 70s socialist ****, but the Greens? How are they big welfare funders? Maybe you should link to their manifesto and prove it?

Nobody likes those who are permanently on social welfare, but the unemployment rate is so low that there is hardly any of them around anymore. I wouldn't make it my number 1 issue.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The Greens offer nothing that any other party could not offer, i.e. an enlightened policy on the environment. One always has to ask a Green is he or she socialist, liberal or conservative.

Only the Greens seem to understand the importance of the environmental and energy issues.

There aren't many hardcore socialist, liberal or conservatives in the Greens, we're mostly centrist or centre-left.

darkman2 wrote:

The Greens are tree-huggers. How much progress would we make with them in power - they just object, object, object to everything.

Bull****! Firstly they're an opposition party. It's their job to object. In my area (Dublin SE) we've been getting policy sheets on energy issues. So it's not like they have no solutions.

Húrin

antSionnach wrote:

Civil war division . Its not 1950 anymore, these people do speak to one another now...
Getting rid of FG and then splitting FF? Is there not a bit of a contradiction there?

The number of people who vote for one of these parties just because their families have always done so is ridiculous. It all just goes back to whose side the family was on in the Civil War.

darkman2

H&#250 wrote: »

Well I agree that Sinn Fein's proposals are unworkable 70s socialist ****, but the Greens? How are they big welfare funders? Maybe you should link to their manifesto and prove it?

Nobody likes those who are permanently on social welfare, but the unemployment rate is so low that there is hardly any of them around anymore. I wouldn't make it my number 1 issue.


Only the Greens seem to understand the importance of the environmental and energy issues.

There aren't many hardcore socialist, liberal or conservatives in the Greens, we're mostly centrist or centre-left.


Bull****! Firstly they're an opposition party. It's their job to object. In my area (Dublin SE) we've been getting policy sheets on energy issues. So it's not like they have no solutions.

A 'policy sheet' on Energy Issues - thats gong to run the country is it. Can you tell me about their economic policy?

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

I thought the IMC gave them a clean bill of health. Maybe you're more qualified to comment on the issue than they are?
Quit living in the past! FF were criminals once.

Oh not that old chessnut... Lets not turn this into a thread on republicanism.

I dont want to see any party dissapear were I given the power to make them disappear.I dont believe in this "class" bull either, we all sit on the same toilet and we can all get up off it and out there and make as much or more money than the next if we put our mind to it.
parties will disappear but only because they are either advocating something most people dont want or another party is advocating it better.

jjbrien

ninty9er wrote:

The PDs. They ultimately belong in FF or FG and only exist cos Charlie Haughey was an ignorant Leader and the FG crowd felt they weren't being heard.

I'd say FG but that would cause a swing to the left like we saw in Europe a few years back with disastrous effects.

The Current govt. has encouraged economic growth and development and FF has been the driving force.

SF are just a joke, and if they were ordinary decent non "stronly- anti- British" people would probably join the Socialists

Did you not notice that it was FG who got the country back on tract between 1994 and 1997 by cutting corportaion tax whic started the big influx of forien investment.

FG and FF have managed to pull our economy out of the depression. Altough they do have a few bad apples in them. So i would keep them. Howere SF should be got rid off. Did anybody notice the big SF rally in belfast on Sunday it was like star wars meets SF. They were all dressed like jedi knights. Time for SF to go as they are no longer needed.

H&#250

H&#250 wrote: »

The number of people who vote for one of these parties just because their families have always done so is ridiculous. It all just goes back to whose side the family was on in the Civil War.

What a new an incisive argument.

Let me dust down the 'green are all hippies in sandals with beards who mop up all the ugly chicks' line in rebuttal.

Sleepy

I have to say, I'd like to disband most of the political parties and start anew, forcing all parties to draw up clear and binding manifestos.

Jackie laughlin

Hurin,
EVERYONE understands the importance of environmental issues. The question is the level of state and international intervention which will be applied and the nature of those policies. That is a classic old-fashioned left Vs right debate.

This centrist guff is just a matter of saying, "I don't have a view."

Kevster,
I'm sorry you're a bit down. I didn't mean to be rude or unkind.

spurious

Sinn Féin are gangsters - they would be no loss.

FF/FG/PD should amalgamate since politically they are much the same anyway.

Jackie laughlin

Spurious,
SF are fascist; they "protect" areas. People vote for them because they support their ideology.

FF, FG and the PDs are not the same. They exist independently because their subtle gradations of neo-liberalism are required by a people who want choice - minor differences - within that overall ideology.

RedPlanet

Granted SF appear militant and socialist but Fascist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasist
Give me a break!:rolleyes:

FG & FF. I think it would be healthier for Irish politics if the two main parties had actual policy rather than just historical differences.

ScottishDanny

I personally don't think 'getting rid of' political parties sounds very healthy but if we're going to bandy around terms like Fascist let remember the original Fascists in Irish politics

Fine Gael was founded on 3 September 1933 following the merger of Cumann na nGaedhael, the Centre Party and the Army Comrades Association, a quasi-fascist group popularly known as the 'Blueshirts'.

Makes you wonder why a 'socialist' party like Labour would cosy up with them? (I would be a trad Labour supporter but not in a coalition with FG).

Then theres the PD's, they won't even put up candidates for the European arliament because they know they've no popular support yet they're in government!

Raskolnikov

The PD's without a doubt for their Nazi-like policies and the erosion of civil liberties. Of course it's not overtly militant and isn't as quick to don the jackboots as traditional fascism; but it is most surely enroaching on Irish political and civil freedoms.

Cronus333

Raskolnikov wrote:

The PD's without a doubt for their Nazi-like policies and the erosion of civil liberties. Of course it's not overtly militant and isn't as quick to don the jackboots as traditional fascism; but it is most surely enroaching on Irish political and civil freedoms.

I'd better tell the membership. We are all convinced we are a liberal party. *slaps forehead* silly us.
I've said it before I'll say it again: the PDs are a liberal party. Don't dismiss them, or indeed any other party, because it suits you to label them with an ideology that even you admit is untrue.

jjbrien

God would people ever leave this blue shirt stuff to bed. The modern FG party is completly diffrent from thoese of 1933. They were diffrent times. Same goes for all the political parties. Most of the people who were blueshirts are dead and so are their ideas.

Raskolnikov

Cronus333 wrote:

I'd better tell the membership. We are all convinced we are a liberal party. *slaps forehead* silly us.
I've said it before I'll say it again: the PDs are a liberal party. Don't dismiss them, or indeed any other party, because it suits you to label them with an ideology that even you admit is untrue.

I never claimed that the PD's were wholly fascist, however; some of their policies are not a million miles apart from each other.

Wiki comes up with its definition of Liberalism, I don't really see how that paralells with the PD political ideal.

Cronus333

Cronus333 wrote:

I'd better tell the membership. We are all convinced we are a liberal party. *slaps forehead* silly us.
I've said it before I'll say it again: the PDs are a liberal party. Don't dismiss them, or indeed any other party, because it suits you to label them with an ideology that even you admit is untrue.

It'd be great if the PDs were. I'd really consider voting for them, but McDowell's actions as Ministers for Justice don't to me seem consistent with someone who considers themselves a social liberal. His continued expansion of the government's sphere of influence seem entirely counter to the basic tenants of liberalism. As long as he remains so influential, I won't be voting for the PDs. How exactly could banning people from using magic mushrooms in the privacy of their own homes be considered liberal?

Economic liberalism alone is not liberalism

samb

Collie D wrote:

I would definitely consider it wrong for a member of the working class to vote PD. But then again, that's what democracy is all about but I can't imagine they get many votes in working class areas, remember one ran for the Dail in my constituency and polled a very small number of votes - can't remember how many but it was pathetically low for a government party.

Wasn't there data publlished recently that said that the voters of the Green's are richest, and not the PD,s as we may have suspected. Perhaps these wealthy Greens have realised that there is more to life than personal wealth and want a healthier society. Perhaps it is only those who aspire to be wealthy that vote PD in hope of achieving that aim.

Malone

Yawn another anti Sinn Fein thread.

Húrin

darkman2 wrote:

A 'policy sheet' on Energy Issues - thats gong to run the country is it. Can you tell me about their economic policy?

Well you said they do nothing but object, I proved you wrong and now you want more?

Okay, but "economic policy" is a vague term. Almost everything is related to economic policy to some degree. What issues are you thinking of?

Deleted User wrote:

What a new an incisive argument.

Let me dust down the 'green are all hippies in sandals with beards who mop up all the ugly chicks' line in rebuttal.

What are the defining differences between FF and FG? It seems that when the one swings left, the other swings right and vice versa. Even still they agree on most issues.

Deleted User wrote:

FG & FF. I think it would be healthier for Irish politics if the two main parties had actual policy rather than just historical differences.

That's what I mean.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

This centrist guff is just a matter of saying, "I don't have a view."

Not really. It's an ideological middle ground.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Spurious,
SF are fascist; they "protect" areas. People vote for them because they support their ideology.

FF, FG and the PDs are not the same. They exist independently because their subtle gradations of neo-liberalism are required by a people who want choice - minor differences - within that overall ideology.

SF are not fascist. I dislike almost everything about them, but at least they put rhetorical emphasis on tackling crime, which is what some other parties, including the Greens, fail to do.

Even calling the PDs neo-liberal is a bit of a stretch. Typically neo-liberals want to get rid of public spending, not increase it.

ScottishDanny wrote:

Makes you wonder why a 'socialist' party like Labour would cosy up with them? (I would be a trad Labour supporter but not in a coalition with FG).

Ancient history. After WWII in Europe anything remotely fascist has generally been political suicide.

Raskolnikov wrote:

The PD's without a doubt for their Nazi-like policies and the erosion of civil liberties.

Ridiculous. You get the Godwin award.

whassupp2

Sinn Féin (and thats without having read any of the previous posts in this thread)

Ray777

I wouldn't like to see any party disappear, but I do think Fianna Fail and the PDs could do with a lengthy stretch in opposition.

Time Magazine

ScottishDanny wrote:

let remember the original Fascists in Irish politics

Makes you wonder why a 'socialist' party like Labour would cosy up with them?

Because the Blueshirts were no more than, as you say, no more than quasi-fascist. Furthermore, they were quasi-fascist; and any historian will accept that they'd lost their extremist stance by the time the true horrors of fascism were realised. The merger with Fine Gael satisfied and silenced the disgusting views of some of the extremsits. Would you consider it more politically prudent to allow them free-reign as a group alone, or to effectively normalise their views within a respectable view? Would that aid you in giving a Fine Gael candidate in 2007 a vote?

You failed to italicise that Fine Gael were formed of a merger of Cumman na nGaedheal and the Centre Party. The Centre Party, you can't really get further from fascism for God's sake (see Earthman's sig if you need explanation). Cumman na nGaedheal were also the party who ensured a strong democracy in this state - to their own obvious detriment - with a Electoral Ammendment Act, 1927. Hardly the Beerhall Putsch now, was it?

So, basically, approximately ten percent of the merger of Fine Gael were quasi-fascist.

Seventy years ago.

OMGZ Hitlers!

Really lads... on my sleeve?

ScottishDanny

Good morning to apologists of fascism everywhere!

Here's what I originally said

if we're going to bandy around terms like Fascist let remember the original Fascists in Irish politics

My point being - the F word is used so much its original meaning is becoming diluted.

Ancient history. After WWII in Europe anything remotely fascist has generally been political suicide.

I don't know if you've noticed but the extreme right is on the rise in Europe right now, though thankfully not here.

So, basically, approximately ten percent of the merger of Fine Gael were quasi-fascist.

What is the safe number of fascists (quasi or otherwise) to have in a party?

That ten percent included O'Duffy as the first leader, who had unsuccessfully attempted a march in Dublin, inspired by Mussolini's Fascist March on Rome when he took power in Italy and interpreted by the government at the time as such and subsequently banned.

For the record, I do not consider the modern FG to be a Fascist organisation, just a centre right party which is why it seems strange to me that they would have a pre-election pact with Labour as they would be ideoligally at odds if they are what they say they are.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

ScottishDanny wrote:

I don't know if you've noticed but the extreme right is on the rise in Europe right now, though thankfully not here.

The venerable Kilroy-Silk springs to mind:p

ScottishDanny

The venerable Kilroy-Silk springs to mind

he deserves his own thread/forum!

Politics from nearly a 100 years ago is irrelevant relative to the here and now.
It's a history discussion.
Ergo this discussion on fascism back then whilst interesting is only a discussion on a different time.

If anybody wants to talk about fascism in todays politics here,talk about it as it exists today or open another thread or the bits of this thread will be moved to a new one and probably moved to the history board.

Thank you all.

Sgt. Sensible

Earthman wrote:

I dont believe in this "class" bull either, we all sit on the same toilet and we can all get up off it and out there and make as much or more money than the next if we put our mind to it.

The toilets in places like Gonzaga and Clongowes are much much nicer than most other schools in the country, otherwise I'd guess that the mummies and daddies of Killiney or wherever wouldn't bother shelling out 4k a year to send their little darlings there.

Jackie laughlin

I don't use the word "fascist" lightly in relation to SF. They are disciplined, have an army which marched in Dublin just a few months ago, undemocratically rule deprived areas, and are authoritarian. I could go on but it's not necessary.

As regards their policies, they will say ANYTHING: socialism in Ireland, "nationalism" in the States.


There is nothing unusual about ideologically opposed parties forming a coalition.

There is a misunderstanding somewhere above about liberalism, neo-liberalism and the PDs. The purpose of neo-liberalism is not to cut public spending but to enrich the ruling classes. Hence an increase in public spending is not contrary to their position as long as the public money goes into private hands. Neo-liberalism is essentially about restoring class power and income differentials which have been eroded. Sit back and watch as inequality returns to the levels of the 1st half of the 20th century or reject this nonsense.

Now 2 things need to be added before the usual myths are posted in response. Poverty is not an absolute but a relative concept. Neo-liberalism is NOT productive: world productivity is a fraction of what it was a few decades ago.

I have to accept but don't like the fact of popular political sentiment in Ireland. If the VAST majority of the Irish people are wedded to neo-liberalism, it is hardly surprising that they will require degrees of choice within that position and marginally different parties to reflect the choice required.