The Octopus Card

Chris_533976

THIS is what we should be striving for here, not the disasterous patchwork of old, seperate, unintegrated, pathetic pieces of crap that we have public transport in this country.

The Octopus card stored value smart card payment system can be used to pay for fares on almost all railways, buses and ferries in Hong Kong. The Octopus card uses RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) to allow users to scan their card without taking it out of their wallet or bag. All parking meters in Hong Kong accept payment by Octopus card only, and Octopus card payment can be made at various car parks.

Main article -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card

What a great idea. The people in charge here should adopt this system. Oh wait. The typical Irish scenario of unions, corruption, lazyness, tightness with money, stupidity, failure to see the big picture, incompetance beyond the highest degree of believability, a national outlook suitable for the late 1950s and the general 'form a committee to investigate why the previous committee didnt do their job' crap that we get here would prevent a sensible, useful, integrated system like this from ever becoming a reality. Lets imagine Bus Eireann, Iaranrod Eireann and the Taxi Drivers Union of Ireland agreeing to the Octopus Card.

Thoughts?

WizZard

Nice idea. Won't happen here though

dermo88

When it comes to efficiency, and ease of use, Developed Asian cities with predominantly ethnic chinese populations are hard to beat. I'll name two examples. Hong Kong and Singapore. You want something done in either, its done, quickly, swiftly, efficiently, like a breeze.

You want to get around, use a taxi, use a train, its simple. Theres very little stress involved. You know its going to work, and work well.

Hong Kong and Singapore saw long ago that the fastest way to becoming wealthy was to ensure that money went around faster, that people went around easier, from A to B. That people were made as comfortable as possible, despite cramped surroundings. That life was made tolerable, despite long hours.

Lets face it, someone in Singapore might work a 10 hour day, but they only have to commute 20 minutes home. Not so bad. Meanwhile in Dublin.....they work 8 hour days, but endure commutes of more than one hour.

Chris_533976

...with the problem in Dublin basically being that that one hour commute is not due to pure distance, but an ineffective, unintegrated public transport system combined with sheer weight of traffic.

DublinWriter

Chris_533976 wrote:

...with the problem in Dublin basically being that that one hour commute is not due to pure distance, but an ineffective, unintegrated public transport system combined with sheer weight of traffic.

The old chestnut being that Dublin is essentially an old Viking town built up along a Viking topology.

Vast quarters of the Asian cities you mentioned were torn down and built again from scratch. Can you imagine that happening in Dublin?

Well maybe yes if they discover some major architectural finds, then they'll comission Sam Stephenson to build a monstrostity or two over it.

Slice

London's smart card is called Oyster - what is with the sea theme?

MarkoP11

Same tech as far as I know

The technology is not a problem, it will be RFID the problem in Dublin is getting all the operators to agree, in this case the project should be managed by a third party. Its not fair to have the RPA running it since they are also an operator, back in the days of multiple railways there was the railway clearing house to handle the revenue and cost distribution, that was done entirely on paper 100+ years back and we cant do it now?

antoinolachtnai

You are basically right, the technology is not really the issue.

I suspect that Hong Kong has a single farebox, no?

Railways are a bit easier to do than bus systems, especially if you end up with a lot of small bus operators. You can't really depend on surveys anymore.

Metrobest

Just like the Hong Kong card, Singapore's EZ Link smartcard is a contacless card similar to the luas smart card. I used it extensively throughout Singapore and thought to myself, "this card is perfect for Dublin". I love the way you don't have to puzzle over zones and sections; just tag on when you begin the journey and off when you finish, and the card does all the work, automatically calculating the cheapest fare. Job done.

It is simply the best type of smart card going. I note that the Dutch public transport system is going to switch over to this type of card in the near future. This is a model that's been found to work in cities the world over. What's different about Dublin? Very little - there's no single fare ticketing on the Singapore card; all it does it caulculate the cheapest fare for your journey based on a pre-existing ticket structure.

Dublin does not need a committee of chin-stroking CIE heads sitting 'round a table spending years investigating this and that. That's the last thing we need. The only thing CIE is good at is stopping progress - that's been proven time and time again.

The RPA knows full well that the Singapore card is the solution for Dublin. That is the solution the RPA pushed for during previous negotiations with CIE. However, Dublin Bus refused, and still refuses to cooperate.

Dublin Bus and its ugly sister, Irish Rail, want their own "Oirish Smart Card" with a big CIE logo on it. With their highly tuned brand finesse, they probably want to call it "smart Rambler" or something.

Dublin Bus also wants to introduce its own "disposable" smart card, not compatible with any existing smart card. This will be for sale in Spars and Centras across Dublin (the ones that are authorised ticket agents) and the card will presumably be thrown in the bin after a week or so of use. Dublin Bus thinks Dubliners "need time to adjust."

They'll never admit it, but Dublin Bus's decision to purchase it's new fleet of buses with only one set of doors, at odds with most capital cities of the developed world, is the biggest barrier to a proper Singapore-style smart card for Dublin. How on earth does Dublin Bus expect passengers to tag on and tag off through the same set of doors?

Pure stupidity.

antoinolachtnai

There is no problem with tagging on and off at the same machine. This is how the luas does it.

I don't think it is as simple as Dublin Bus refusing to cooperate. I'm not up on all the details but I'm pretty sure there's a bit more complexity to it than that.

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is no problem with tagging on and off at the same machine. This is how the luas does it.

I don't think it is as simple as Dublin Bus refusing to cooperate. I'm not up on all the details but I'm pretty sure there's a bit more complexity to it than that.

It's a pretty big problem - there's only one door and that one door only has one reader. There's no way for people to load and unload at the time, meaning people paying cash will be faster than pre-pay customers.

Several groups involved have pinned the blame on DB. That doesn't mean DB were in the wrong, but they did hold it up. Among other things, they wanted to control branding and sales themselves rather than let RPA do it but, as Mark G says, the RPA aren't entirely neutral and DB do have years of experience.

antoinolachtnai

All passengers should disembark before any passengers board. That's the rule. There's no reason why you couldn't have a smartcard reader on both sides.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be rear doors, I think there should, and it would speed things up, but it's a separate issue from the ticketing issue.

Metrobest

Anton, I wish you could see how the smart card works in Singapore.

There's nothing stopping us implementinhg the exact same system in Dublin - EXCEPT Dublin Bus.

Here's how it works:

Passengers board by the front doors, which has two readers - one on the left, one on the right. The readers beeps as the card is held over it. You just hold your wallet over the reader and the card is verified in a split second. Passengers board the bus almost as quick as if they just walked in without paying...

Meanwhile, the passengers exiting have already tagged off before the bus pulls into the stop. They simply walk out via the rear doors. There is never any conflict between passengers exiting and entering, and the bus is boarded in superfast time.

I took buses in Singapore during rush hour, amidst Singapore's shocking congestion. There weren't even any bus lanes on the route, yet the bus flew along and crucially, was never delayed at stops. I observed not one single passenger paying cash during a 30 minute journey : everyone had a smart card.

But we can't have this system in Dublin. That's because Dublin Bus decided that the city didn't need, or couldn't cope with, rear doors on its buses.

Dublin Bus won't cooperate with a proper smart card system because Dublin Bus knows its fleet is unable to handle it. That's the real logjam blocking the RPA's smartcard plan.

Instead, Dublin Bus wants to buy time. It thinks that Dubliners "aren't ready" for a Singapre style smart card.

Dublin Bus's disposable smartcard will be no different from any of its existing rambler tickets, only you won't have to insert the card.

There won't be any tagging off because Dublin Bus knows its unworkable. Look at its newest buses, the way they're designed. The front door is a bottleneck which slows down boarding and exiting. Imagine the choas of buggies, wheelchairs, passengers tagging on, passengers tagging off, passengers paying cash...all at the same time. It's unworkable.

And still there are those who say that we shouldn't frachise out 25% of Dublin Bus routes. Knowing what Dublin Bus knew, do you think a private operator would have chosen to buy buses that would scupper the smart card project? You'd almost think Dublin Bus did it on purpose.

antoinolachtnai

Exactly which roads in Singapore have shocking congestion?

What exactly do you mean by 'franchise out bus routes'? Lots of people suggest that, but nobody has yet explained exactly what they mean by it?

I can see that having back doors is a good idea, but I can't see that big a connection between smartcards and rear doors. There isn't much connection to franchising out bus routes either. You are mixing up a whole lot of things and making it look like a giant conspiracy.

Chris_533976

I think the reason Dublin Bus dont want smartcars is public attitude here.

In Singapore everyone is well trained. They'll honestly pay the money by getting on the front and scanning their card.

Here you'd get tonnes of yobs who would just sneak in the back all the time, people that I dont think exist in Singapore.

Granted, its beyond retarded that Dublin Bus order a ton of buses without more doors. And its disgusting that they want to keep the system a disaster like it is.

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

Anton, I wish you could see how the smart card works in Singapore.

There's nothing stopping us implementinhg the exact same system in Dublin - EXCEPT Dublin Bus.

Here's how it works:

Passengers board by the front doors, which has two readers - one on the left, one on the right. The readers beeps as the card is held over it. You just hold your wallet over the reader and the card is verified in a split second. Passengers board the bus almost as quick as if they just walked in without paying...

Meanwhile, the passengers exiting have already tagged off before the bus pulls into the stop. They simply walk out via the rear doors. There is never any conflict between passengers exiting and entering, and the bus is boarded in superfast time.

I took buses in Singapore during rush hour, amidst Singapore's shocking congestion. There weren't even any bus lanes on the route, yet the bus flew along and crucially, was never delayed at stops. I observed not one single passenger paying cash during a 30 minute journey : everyone had a smart card.

But we can't have this system in Dublin. That's because Dublin Bus decided that the city didn't need, or couldn't cope with, rear doors on its buses.

Dublin Bus won't cooperate with a proper smart card system because Dublin Bus knows its fleet is unable to handle it. That's the real logjam blocking the RPA's smartcard plan.

Instead, Dublin Bus wants to buy time. It thinks that Dubliners "aren't ready" for a Singapre style smart card.

Dublin Bus's disposable smartcard will be no different from any of its existing rambler tickets, only you won't have to insert the card.

There won't be any tagging off because Dublin Bus knows its unworkable. Look at its newest buses, the way they're designed. The front door is a bottleneck which slows down boarding and exiting. Imagine the choas of buggies, wheelchairs, passengers tagging on, passengers tagging off, passengers paying cash...all at the same time. It's unworkable.

And still there are those who say that we shouldn't frachise out 25% of Dublin Bus routes. Knowing what Dublin Bus knew, do you think a private operator would have chosen to buy buses that would scupper the smart card project? You'd almost think Dublin Bus did it on purpose.

That is complete bull**** Dublin bus has already fitted smartcard readers on the fleet that do not even require you to remove the card from your pocket and they are capable of reading the cards as people leave.
The new system if/when implemented will be much quicker than the old as it will not involve inserting tickets and printing them etc
The reason for moving to a single door system (BTW these buses were not made especially for Dublin Bus and are in use allover the UK) is because of the complete inability of the Gardai/Traffic wardens/Clampers to keep bus stops clear I recently had the experience of gardai on traffic duty at a sporting event standing right beside people parking at Bus stop that is on a low floor route only a call to the station could convince them to issue tickets.

markpb

shltter wrote:

The reason for moving to a single door system (BTW these buses were not made especially for Dublin Bus and are in use allover the UK) is because of the complete inability of the Gardai/Traffic wardens/Clampers to keep bus stops clear I recently had the experience of gardai on traffic duty at a sporting event standing right beside people parking at Bus stop that is on a low floor route only a call to the station could convince them to issue tickets.

If the problem ever goes away and the other people involved in PT in this city do their jobs, DB will be left with a fleet of buses limping round the city because of the time spent loading and unloading. Wouldn't it make more sense to buy double door buses and use them where possible. If it's not safe to open them, don't open them. There are stops (and times) where drivers use the second set of doors but they won't be able to in newer buses. It's not ideal but it's not ruling out improvements in the future either.

Slightly OT, I used a VT-class bus last week and was shocked at the width of the door and area around the door. Does it cause problems at all?

shltter

markpb wrote:

If the problem ever goes away and the other people involved in PT in this city do their jobs, DB will be left with a fleet of buses limping round the city because of the time spent loading and unloading. Wouldn't it make more sense to buy double door buses and use them where possible. If it's not safe to open them, don't open them. There are stops (and times) where drivers use the second set of doors but they won't be able to in newer buses. It's not ideal but it's not ruling out improvements in the future either.

Slightly OT, I used a VT-class bus last week and was shocked at the width of the door and area around the door. Does it cause problems at all?

I guess they decided that if it has not gone away in the last 20/30 years that it is unlikely to be resolved during the lifetime of these buses. I presume that the decision was made to provide some clarity and in fact it has speeded things up as the single door is much wider doesn't have any poles or bars in the way and people know exactly where they are expected to get off.

I agree that in an ideal world we would load at the front and unload at the centre door but 30 years of wasted space and confusion it was probably better to change the system than curse at the darkness over events that they have no control over.


VTs are only in Donnybrook so I have no experience with them good bad or indifferent I think spareman works over there he might know more

secret_squirrel

The Doors issue is a red herring tbh.

As a daily dublin bus user there's very rarely any problem with passengers exiting the bus through the same set of doors as those entering. Having to 'wave' as you go out wouldnt be a massive problem. Especially if a second reader was installed next to the driver.

I suspect there is more resistance coz the RPA are involved rather than an independent 3rd party.

bk

First of all the technology is really very simple. They are all just RFID smart cards and most following a particular ISO standard. The Luas smart card and the new readers on DB buses both support this standard and are fully compatible. That just leaves Dart and suburban rail to upgrade, but that shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is not technical, it is purely down to the players involved, with disagreements over branding, profit sharing, etc.

It really shows how badly we need a Dublin Transport Authority with real teeth. It needs to own DB, DART, Suburban rail and LUAS and it needs to brand them all the same under the DTA and introduce the smart cards.

The buses do pose a problem for the smart cards. For LUAS, DART and Suburban rail it will be very easy, just tag on and off at the gates. But if you make people tag off at the front doors, it is going to slow people unloading.

Possible solutions are:

- Obviously rare doors for unloading are the ideal solution.

- Single bus fare, no matter the journey length, means you only need to tag on.
Con: Of course would mean more expensive bus fare for short journey to even out lose for long journeys.

- Put a tag off machine at busy bus stops like in the city (as well as on the bus) so people can get off and then tag off at their leisure.
Con: Not possible at all bus stops, so might cause confusion as to where you can and can't tag off.

- Tag on by the driver and tell him/her how far you are going. Like how you pay with cash at the moment, no need to tag off.
Con: Slower loading times and slower then current card system.

bk

secret_squirrel wrote:

As a daily dublin bus user there's very rarely any problem with passengers exiting the bus through the same set of doors as those entering. Having to 'wave' as you go out wouldnt be a massive problem. Especially if a second reader was installed next to the driver.

The buses already have the reader, it is the little black box on the bar to your left as you get off the bus. Just above where the current paper card readers are.

And it will likely slow unloading down as some idiot rummages in his/her bag for their card, holding everyone up.

secret_squirrel

bk wrote:

it is going to slow people unloading.

You are the Nth person to say this and I just dont see it. On a single door bus unloading is relatively slow anyway. Any delay from the wave of a RFID card in the general direction of the reader will be neglidible, once a period of user adjustment has passed.

Generally speaking either the single door is free flowing - albeit in a Disembark followed by Embark fashion, or it is blocked by a pushchair/trolley wielding person.

IMO the single door issue is a red herring and should be ignored completely in this discussion.

shltter

bk wrote:

First of all the technology is really very simple. They are all just RFID smart cards and most following a particular ISO standard. The Luas smart card and the new readers on DB buses both support this standard and are fully compatible. That just leaves Dart and suburban rail to upgrade, but that shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is not technical, it is purely down to the players involved, with disagreements over branding, profit sharing, etc.

It really shows how badly we need a Dublin Transport Authority with real teeth. It needs to own DB, DART, Suburban rail and LUAS and it needs to brand them all the same under the DTA and introduce the smart cards.

The buses do pose a problem for the smart cards. For LUAS, DART and Suburban rail it will be very easy, just tag on and off at the gates. But if you make people tag off at the front doors, it is going to slow people unloading.

Possible solutions are:

- Obviously rare doors for unloading are the ideal solution.

- Single bus fare, no matter the journey length, means you only need to tag on.
Con: Of course would mean more expensive bus fare for short journey to even out lose for long journeys.

- Put a tag off machine at busy bus stops like in the city (as well as on the bus) so people can get off and then tag off at their leisure.
Con: Not possible at all bus stops, so might cause confusion as to where you can and can't tag off.

- Tag on by the driver and tell him/her how far you are going. Like how you pay with cash at the moment, no need to tag off.
Con: Slower loading times and slower then current card system.

My understanding of the system is that simply walking past the scanner will be enough you do not have to take the card out

So you walk onto the bus it records you entering and when you walk back past it again it calculates the distance you have travelled and deducts the ammount from your smart card account.

so there will not be any hold ups

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

But we can't have this system in Dublin. That's because Dublin Bus decided that the city didn't need, or couldn't cope with, rear doors on its buses.

Dublin Bus won't cooperate with a proper smart card system because Dublin Bus knows its fleet is unable to handle it. That's the real logjam blocking the RPA's smartcard plan.

Instead, Dublin Bus wants to buy time. It thinks that Dubliners "aren't ready" for a Singapre style smart card.

Dublin Bus's disposable smartcard will be no different from any of its existing rambler tickets, only you won't have to insert the card.

There won't be any tagging off because Dublin Bus knows its unworkable. Look at its newest buses, the way they're designed. The front door is a bottleneck which slows down boarding and exiting. Imagine the choas of buggies, wheelchairs, passengers tagging on, passengers tagging off, passengers paying cash...all at the same time. It's unworkable.

And still there are those who say that we shouldn't frachise out 25% of Dublin Bus routes. Knowing what Dublin Bus knew, do you think a private operator would have chosen to buy buses that would scupper the smart card project? You'd almost think Dublin Bus did it on purpose.

You really have no idea what you are talking about Dublin Bus has already installed the scanners for the smart tickets the reason why they want to keep disposable tickets as well is that they dont want a big move back to cash when the new system is implemented

Dublin Bus have been selling prepaid tickets for a long time they know what way people use them they do not want to risk people who are used to spending small amounts of money being put of by having to lodge money onto a smart card it makes perfect sense to keep the old system going while they introduce the new system
Its about giving people choice. If dublin Bus introduced the new system and we had huge queues while people who had not adopted the new system paid cash on board then the **** would hit the fan.

The probelm is that there is no forward planning in the Dept of transport so all the individual companies went off and did there own thing it is a matter of getting all these different systems to work together or getting companies that have worked long and hard on a system to drop that system in favour of some other system.

It is a simple fact that when companies are told they are in competition with each other as Mr Brennan told the CIE companies and LUAS then they are not of their own accord going to decide to work together on integrated ticketing.

markpb

secret_squirrel wrote:

IMO the single door issue is a red herring and should be ignored completely in this discussion.

It's only slight off-topic. Moving to exit validation will highlight just how ineffective single door operation is and will cause frustration on the part of passengers. Anyone trying to change buses quickly or running for work when they're late will run the risk of not tagging off properly and be charged extra. Yes they're minor quibbles but they'll still slow take-up of the cards.

On the other hand, as Shltter points out, most of DB's problems are political. When they're not in the limelight, they're forgotten by politicians. When they are, they're used as football.

jlang

shltter wrote:

My understanding of the system is that simply walking past the scanner will be enough you do not have to take the card out

So you walk onto the bus it records you entering and when you walk back past it again it calculates the distance you have travelled and deducts the ammount from your smart card account.

so there will not be any hold ups

Can't see it being as simple as that. If it's just triggered by an RFID tag walking by the scanner, what's to stop people standing at bus stops being tagged on/off every time a bus passes by. I don't want to be charged for bus journeys when I don't even get on a bus.

antoinolachtnai

First, it's not an RFID. It's a stored-value smartcard. There are clear architectural reasons why a pass RFID is not adequate for this type of purpose.

Second, walk-past rfid's for passenger ticketing - can you name a city where this is in full commercial operation?

Third, can't you see the big problem here? Money. Money is the big problem. It is unrealistic to think that you can roll out this system without spending tens of millions, with proportionate ongoing operating costs. Where is this money supposed to come from? Passengers?

Slice

what are the implications for data protection when it comes to such a system? will user's travelling habits be kept on record and how will this information be used?

markpb

I'd assume (and hope) that it'll be the same as everywhere else: routes will be recorded for revenue splits and analysis but not shared with anyone else. I guess the gardai will be allowed to request it with a court order.

Slice

Why would the operators need to know journeys and destinations for revenue split? Presumably they would only need to know the value that is debited from each card and mode/s of transport used for each journey?

markpb

Normally each operator submits all the transactions to a central clearing house each night. This clearing house then works out the revenue splits and pays the operators their fee. In effect, even the operators don't have access to the card records and it's trivial to enforce this so they don't even see a card/serial number for their own passengers. I'm not sure how it'll work in Dublin though.