[Article] Three RPA route options for new Luas line to Bray

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, 11/08/2006


The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) has selected three route options for the Luas green line extension to Bray, Co Wicklow.


Details of the route options, which would create major housing and industrial development in the area, are to be officially announced by the Minister for Transport next Monday. Martin Cullen will also sign the railway order confirming the Luas extension.

The Irish Times has learned the route options from Bride's Glen at Cherrywood to Fassaroe, north of Bray, are: an alignment east of the M50/M11 motorway; an alignment to the west of the M50/M11; and a route along the the old Harcourt Street railway line which went through Shankill village to a halt on the coastal railway line.

A variation to the eastern motorway alignment to connect with the railway line at Woodbrook is also being considered.

The timetable for the Bride's Glen to Cherrywood extension is for services to be operational by 2010, with the Bray extension not opening until 2015. However, the RPA said yesterday it was possible the Bray extension might be built ahead of those dates.

Because of the importance of the Luas route last year, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Bray and Wicklow county local authorities commissioned a land use and transportation study from consultants Faber Monsell, with the co-operation of the RPA. It was completed last March.

Three corridor options for the Luas were identified: (1) the old Harcourt Street line alignment; (2) the M11 corridor (eastern side) and (3) the M11 corridor (western side). The report notes the RPA may also put forward a spur from the eastern motorway alignment to connect with the railway line offering a link with Dart services.

Major development at Cherrywood is pending after construction of the Luas extension from Sandyford. Now the three local authority plans also mention housing and development in the Bray environs including Woodbrook, Shanganagh, Old Connaught, Rathmichael and Fassaroe.

The Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown development plan also wants to create a new Dart station at Woodbrook and to widen and improve access roads into Bray.

The RPA will put the route options on public display from Monday and will later hold a period of public consultation.

The agency is also proposing extensions to Citywest, the Docklands and a link between the two lines in Dublin city centre.

© The Irish Times

Winters

Fassaroe is the favoured option at the moment with a bus shuttle service between the two lines via the new Bray Town Centre.

BrianD

I think that this action by the RPA copperfastened the fact that they are not suited to the job. In fact, here is the biggest single cock up in public transport planning in Irish history.

Let's remind the RPA that Bray is already served by the DART. The population is about 30,000. For a town of its size the DART provides adequate rail transport for those living there. This is not to say that that the frequency of service is sufficient but it can be improved with further investment.

The extension of a light rail line to Bray beggars belief. It will only lead to two things - firstly the green line will become usable as it will be an unsuitable mode of transport for the population it is trying to serve and secondly the onus to upgrade the DART further (in terms of frequency of service) will be diminished as IR will simply state that the demand is dissipated.

The best solution is to take the money earmarked for this project and put it into the DART and enhancing local bus services in the Bray environs. If they really want to spend the money build a local tram service into Bray from Cherrywood.

I'm sure various people from the RPA and hopefully the relevant Department browse these boards. If you do a few questions for you:

1) Why are you, the RPA, wasting my tax money on this project?
2) Is there a vested interest promoting the extension of the green line to Bray. Any builders? Any corrupt promises made y politicians?
3) Why are you going to make the Green line unusable for those living north of Sandyford?

As a reminder light rail is urban transport not suburban rail. Will yis be bringing the Green Line on down to New Ross?

sliabh

Brian, tt always was intended that the Green line would be extended to Cherrywood and Shankill/Bray. It's not about better service Bray, but all the places along the line. And it makes sense to connect the Luas to the Dart at the Southern where the two are only a few km apart.

The additional passengers will be a problem. But the Green line was designed to be upgraded to a metro to handle a much large capacity of passengers. This originally was to be done with the building of the metro line from the airport to the city centre.

To make sure this can still happen you need to give abuse to every politican you hear suggesting the Red and Green Luas lines are joined in the city centre. This stupid idea would effectively prevent the green line from being upgraded as was planned.

MiniD

Considering the money already spent, and the success of the Stillorgan QBC, would it not make sense to use this existing bus corridor and expand it further into Bray. The success of the 145 has showed people are willing to use the bus. What we would need here, of course, is a frequency simlilar to that of the 46A, with a bus every 5 minutes, with bus priority at all traffic lights.

Pushing more passengers onto an already overcrowded Luas will just force people back into their cars.

BrianD

sliabh wrote:

Brian, tt always was intended that the Green line would be extended to Cherrywood and Shankill/Bray. It's not about better service Bray, but all the places along the line. And it makes sense to connect the Luas to the Dart at the Southern where the two are only a few km apart.

The additional passengers will be a problem. But the Green line was designed to be upgraded to a metro to handle a much large capacity of passengers. This originally was to be done with the building of the metro line from the airport to the city centre.

To make sure this can still happen you need to give abuse to every politican you hear suggesting the Red and Green Luas lines are joined in the city centre. This stupid idea would effectively prevent the green line from being upgraded as was planned.

I never heard of the Green Line going to Cherrywood! Was that on the original plans.

The Green Line is close on capacity at the moment. The trams are the maximum length and I don't see any scope for an increase in frequency.

Realistically, there are no plans to upgrade to a metro nor was it designed to be upgraded other than the two tracks being set apart at metro guage. This created a false promise that was widely reported.

If an upgrade was possible now would be the time to do it and shut down the entire line completely and upgrade it and at the same time extend it. Is the Green Line extension being built to the so called "metro standard"? I thought there was a level crossing beyond Sandyford? Odd for a new metro line.

I don't think there is much sense in joining the red and green lines for the sake of it. Most of the advantages are engineering rather than for commuters. I think we all accept that because somebody uses one tram line that does not mean they will want to use the other. There is a strong arguement to increase the functionality of the Green Line by extending it into the city centre and northwards. To me this is a better use of public money that extending it south to Bray.

The extension of the Green Line is essentially a DOWN GRADING of the line. It is a downgrading as it will be unable to meet capacity and it is the wrong equipment for the job. It's beyond me why the RPA have not grasped this basic reality. Then again maybe the consultants have conveniently brushed this fact under the table.

Bill McH

But why is this coming up now?

According to this link http://www.transport21.ie/PROJECTS/METRO_-_LUAS/Luas_Line_B2_-_Cherrywood_to_Bray_Environs.html, the projected completion date is 9 (nine) years away.

Aren't there other parts of the city which are ahead in the queue to be looked at for LUAS projects?

Victor

BrianD wrote:

2) Is there a vested interest promoting the extension of the green line to Bray. Any builders? Any corrupt promises made y politicians?

Realise that Cherrywood and other nearby lands are before the Tribunals.

BrianD wrote:

The Green Line is close on capacity at the moment. The trams are the maximum length and I don't see any scope for an increase in frequency.

I understand the trams can be lengthened substantially - possibily up to 90m, but that becomes a real problem for on-street sections.

bryanw

BrianD wrote:

I never heard of the Green Line going to Cherrywood! Was that on the original plans.

When you say "original plans" that could be anything, what we have now aren't even the "original plans". There was mention of all kinds of things, like metro from the Airport to Shankill etc.

BrianD wrote:

The Green Line is close on capacity at the moment. The trams are the maximum length and I don't see any scope for an increase in frequency.

Realistically, there are no plans to upgrade to a metro nor was it designed to be upgraded other than the two tracks being set apart at metro guage. This created a false promise that was widely reported ......... I don't think there is much sense in joining the red and green lines for the sake of it. Most of the advantages are engineering rather than for commuters. I think we all accept that because somebody uses one tram line that does not mean they will want to use the other. There is a strong arguement to increase the functionality of the Green Line by extending it into the city centre and northwards. To me this is a better use of public money that extending it south to Bray.

Well I suppose the easiest, short-term, quick-fix solution would be to increase frequency - doesn't seem to me to be that much of a task to implement if needed, unless there's not enough rolling stock or something...

As far as the green line being metro standard, if it was metro it would only be light metro so it would be quite similar to Luas, only different trains. I suppose it would really just be upgrading platforms and stuff.

Of course there is always this talk of upgrading the green line to metro but its never put into any plans and I think thats a big mistake. They all drop lines like this is to metro standard and this will be metro standard, but its no use really unless its taken advantage of. I think what has been mentioned is dropping the green line underground at Beechwood to connect with Metro North. I think that this should have been part to T21. It's a really logical step, they are going ahead tunneling in town, why not finish the job and connect with the green line instead of bringing tunneling machines back in ten years...

The remaining green line thats on-street could be a spur from the Lucan line and the city centre join-up can obviously still provide a purpose as it extends to Liffey Junction (and can also be part of Lucan line. The could also put a metro stop at Harcourt... blah, blah, blah .... my little thoughts.... :rolleyes:

Victor

bryanw wrote:

Well I suppose the easiest, short-term, quick-fix solution would be to increase frequency - doesn't seem to me to be that much of a task to implement if needed, unless there's not enough rolling stock or something...

You would also need a power upgrade.

bryanw

Victor wrote:

You would also need a power upgrade.

How would they do that? Would it be a big operation or would it just really be a more complex version of "turning up the generators"...?

Maskhadov

A LUAS line is pointless.. It should be a fullly segragated METRO.

Also joining the two luas lines on street level is also pointless. Everything should be underground between the canals.

Victor

bryanw wrote:

How would they do that? Would it be a big operation or would it just really be a more complex version of "turning up the generators"...?

No, it means creating more, smaller circuits with the power lines and adding more transformer stations and connections to the national grid.

Winters

Victor wrote:

.I understand the trams can be lengthened substantially - possibily up to 90m, but that becomes a real problem for on-street sections.

The Alstom trams can be lengthened to 50m currently not 90m.

BrianD

Winters wrote:

The Alstom trams can be lengthened to 50m currently not 90m.

Plus the platforms are all built to acommodate 40m trams. The logical solution is the same type of tram (or shorter) and greater frequency. Given that green line frequency varies between 5min at peak to 15min in some off peak times I don't see any scope of improving the frequency during peak times. Perhaps you could stretch it to 3min but the power would need to be upgraded. A 5min frequency during peak is quite acceptable by any standards. It seems to me that outside of peak times that capacity is not an issue and therefore frequency is not an issue. So we are stuck with 40m trams at roughly the same frequency on the line. Not good news when they are going to make the line longer.

Furthermore if you have to consider using 90m trams then its a really a case of hiding the main issue - wrong technology for the job.

Its high time that RPA demonstrated some leadership and professionalism is this area. Trams are not the right technology to extend out to Bray a suburban town that is already served by a heavy rail link. I can not see how they fail to grasp this basic factor. Perhaps our expert consultants told them otherwise?

Zebra3

Bill McH wrote:

But why is this coming up now?

According to this link http://www.transport21.ie/PROJECTS/METRO_-_LUAS/Luas_Line_B2_-_Cherrywood_to_Bray_Environs.html, the projected completion date is 9 (nine) years away.

Aren't there other parts of the city which are ahead in the queue to be looked at for LUAS projects?

There should be, but this line extension is on the southside of Dublin, so it will probably get priority over Metro North, etc. In the last ~10 years with regard to new lines/extensions, the northside got an extension of the DART to Portmarnock and Malahide, the southside got the same to Greystones and two new Luas lines.....

And most of that time Bertie was running the country...

Victor

In theory, there is enough power to increase the frequency to 3 minutes. In practice, that means occassional blips in power and some junctions are overburdened.

Winters wrote:

The Alstom trams can be lengthened to 50m currently not 90m.

Rod mentioned otherwise, but maybe he was talking about someone else's trams.

Winters

Who is Rod Victor?

Wed 22nd February 2006, IEI Presentation
Michael Sheedy, Light Rail Project Director, RPA

In December 2005 the RPA signed contracts for the delivery in Easter 2007 of additional 10m sections for the red line trams to bring them up to 40m in length.

The RPA and Connex hope to reduce the end to end journey time on the Green line from 22 mins to 20 mins.

In the future the RPA said that it is possible to bring the operating frequency on the Green line down from 5 min intervals to 3 min intervals and lengthen the trams from 40m to 50m.

Victor

Any sight of these three routes yet?

Winters wrote:

Who is Rod Victor?

One of the RPA managers. I've realised he might have actually meant increasing capacity by reducing frequency to 90 seconds.

Winters

Could it possibly be Rob Leech you are talking about? He is the Metro North Project Manager.

90 second headways will be the optimum headway on the metro north segragated sections. The two Luas lines couldnt handle that type of frequency.

Routes being announced today by Cullen. Nothing up on website yet.

[url]See http://www.rpa.ie/luas/news/news_letters[/url]

"Luas Line B2 - August 14th 2006


The Railway Procurement Agency today (August 14th) produced details of the route options for extending the Luas Green Line to link Cherrywood with the Bray area (Luas Line B2).

The first copy of the RPA Newsletter announcing details of the route options for the Green Line extension was presented to Transport Minister Martin Cullen T.D. by RPA Director of Corporate Services, Mr. Ger Hannon at Sandyford Luas Depot. This extension of the Luas Green Line could add up to 8.3km to the Green Line,depending on which route is chosen. It is expected that an additional 9 million passenger journeys will be made annually as a result of this new extension.

The Government’s "Transport 21" national transport plan includes the extension of the Luas Green Line-firstly to Cherrywood and then on to the Bray area. The RPA has identified a number of route options which will form the basis of extensive public consultation in the coming months.

It is expected that journey time from the new Green Line terminus in Cherrywood (Bride’s Glen) will be around 16 minutes.

More than 22 million passenger journeys were made on Luas in 2005 and the indications are that this number will be exceeded in 2006.

The existing Luas lines were developed under the National Development Plan with EU funding assistance."

BrianD

In the future the RPA said that it is possible to bring the operating frequency on the Green line down from 5 min intervals to 3 min intervals and lengthen the trams from 40m to 50m.

Possible as long as you lengthen every platform from 40m to 40m. This will probably be the easy bit. Then the power has to be upgraded to allow for heavier trams operating on the line. If the frequency is increased then its more and heavier trams on the line.

One had to question if the line is ready for high frequency operation. I would have thought it would be wise to have more cross overs installed. One failure will have a major effect. Suppose it will have the safe effect no matter what frequency you operate it at.

Also the 50m trams would prove difficult for on street operation. The logical extension of the green line is into town and beyond so that there is a cross city route. The Luas was once upon a time touted as an urban transit system. Not a poor mans suburban railway as the RPA intend to make it.

Winters

Line B2 options:

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/August%202006%20-%20Luas%20Line%20B2.pdf

sliabh

Anyone know which of the 4 routes is the preferred option?

Winters

Yes, currently option 1 or 2 as per the North Bray Environs LUTS.

Victor

They really don't like putting the DART on their maps, do they?

BrianD wrote:

One had to question if the line is ready for high frequency operation. I would have thought it would be wise to have more cross overs installed. One failure will have a major effect. Suppose it will have the safe effect no matter what frequency you operate it at.

No, at low frequencies, you can get away with one failure without it affecting other services. At a certain frequency, you end up with a profound effect.

There is of course another option that connects Luas and DART, but admittedly doesn't serve the South DL-R / North Wicklow area.

miles teg

Just looking at the route options there and have one question. How in the hell do they propose option 3 will go through those estates? I'm familiar with the area and to me it looks like that option will have the luas going through people's living rooms... a bit too convenient.

weehamster

Option 3 is the original Harcourt Railway alignment which can be seen clearly with Google Earth.

steve-o

Yeah, it's not as bad as it looks at first. They'd need to take out a couple of houses on Quinn's road (directly opposite the old bridge), and about 4 relatively new houses built on the old railway line behind the new apartments by the old bridge in the village. A load of gardens nearer the Dart line would lose a few metres.

MarkoP11

Yes it is the Harcourt Street alignment but the RPA map is incorrect the red line on the map is about 100m too far east. I copped it day I got the map and double checked with the RPA who confirmed I was right and the map was wrong

Its not a problem really since the alignment is fairly obvious

Thanks to google maps, grren line is the original red is the incorrect line on the RPA map

Number 50/52 Quinns Rd are the only properties that would be demolished

SeanW

This has probably been asked before ... how in the hell is Luas to Bray going to work capacitywise when the Green line as it stands is already near capacity at peak and the first of the 2 extensions are likely to swamp it even further? And why do 3 of the 4 options terminate in what (on the map looks like) the middle of nowhere?

spacetweek

SeanW wrote:

This has probably been asked before ... how in the hell is Luas to Bray going to work capacitywise when the Green line as it stands is already near capacity at peak and the first of the 2 extensions are likely to swamp it even further? And why do 3 of the 4 options terminate in what (on the map looks like) the middle of nowhere?

Didn't you hear? It's being upgraded to Metro

That middle-of-nowhere part of the map is Fassaroe, a rural area set to be developed heavily in the medium term.

Victor

Oddly enough, this is only on the DoT website, no the RPA one. The last few lines of the PR reeks of "we're taking all the glory, but doing none of the work". Shenanigans (to keep ministerial office?). :rolleyes:

Leaflet http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/9345-0.pdf

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9345&lang=ENG&loc=2126

Cullen announces Cherrywood to Bray Luas route selection
6 June 2007

Transport Minister Martin Cullen TD, together with the Chief Executive of the Railway Procurement Agency, Mr Frank Allen, this afternoon (Wednesday 6 June 2007) announced the preferred route selected by the RPA for the Cherrywood to Bray area Green Line Luas extension.

The selected route was one of three route options identified as part of a public consultation process by the RPA which commenced in August 2006. This new Luas line, (known as Luas Line B2) is funded under Transport 21 and will run from Cherrywood to Fassaroe. It will follow the route of the old Harcourt Street rail alignment over the Brides Glen viaduct to the M11. The line will then continue south, parallel to the motorway to the Wilford interchange, where it will cross to the western side of the motorway on a new bridge and continue southwards through Old Connaught and Fassaroe. Possible stops along the selected route, which will run to over six kilometres include St. Colmcilles, Stonebridge Road, Crinken Lane, Wilford, Old Connaught and Fassaroe.

A link to the DART at either of two locations is subject to further public consultation. The options are either a link to a proposed station at Woodbrook or alternatively to the existing DART station at Bray. Public consultation on this particular aspect of the route will be held by the RPA tomorrow Thursday 7 June from 11am to 8pm at the Royal Hotel, Bray.

Structural work has already started on the Luas Line B1, which also sees an extension (7.5 kilometres) to the Luas Green Line from Sandyford to Cherrywood. Speaking this afternoon, Minister Martin Cullen TD said: "I am delighted that work has commenced on the Luas Green Line which will extend the line network and give commuters the option of travelling from St. Stephens Green to Sandyford and on to Cherrywood. I also welcome the selection of the route - again extending the Green Line - from Cherrywood to the Bray area. Since its introduction in 2004, Luas has proven to be an attractive means of transport for commuters. Last year (2006), 26 million passengers used the Red and Green Luas lines, a 16% increase on 2005. Luas provides a quick, safe and environmentally friendly alternative to the private car. When up and running, the extensions to the Green Line will offer greater travel choice, flexibility and more frequent services to Luas customers.

Speaking about the Cherrywood to Bray area route selection, Frank Allen, Chief Executive of the Railway Procurement Agency said: This decision is another milestone in the development of the new rail-based infrastructure for the Greater Dublin Area. I am very pleased that the Railway Procurement Agency is continuing to make a significant contribution to the future development of public transport in the city and look forward to delivering the seven new Luas lines and two Metros which are planned under Transport 21."



Issued by: Michelle Hoctor, 087 8563070 / Veronica Scanlan, 087 6430622

For information about the public consultation process tomorrow in Bray, please contact the RPA on 1800 676 464.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0606/breaking62.htm

Cullen announces Luas extension route

Kilian Doyle

The route of the extension of the Luas Green Line from Cherrywood to Bray was unveiled today.

It will follow the old Harcourt Street rail line over the Bride's Glen viaduct and run alongside the M11 before crossing over the motorway to terminate in Fassaroe, which has been earmarked for major development.

The six-kilometre route was one of three options identified as part of a public consultation process by the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA)

The plan allows for a branch to a possible new Dart station at Willbrook, south of Shankill or a branch from Wilford through Bray to the Dart station on the seafront. The RPA has yet to decide on which option it will take regarding the two possible branches off the line.

The new Luas line, known as Luas Line B2 is funded under Transport 21. Possible stops along the selected route include St Colmcille's, Stonebridge Road, Crinken Lane, Wilford, Old Connaught and Fassaroe.

The line is currently being extended from Sandyford to Cherrywood.

Minister for Transport Martin Cullen said today he expected the current works to be completed by 2012, at which point work will begin on the new extension.

"It also brings into play the sort of integration we've been trying to get, namely the connectivity between Dart services at Bray and the Luas extension," Mr Cullen said. "That's one of the things the public has wanted."

When complete, he said the new route would add around 13 million passenger journeys a year. Last year 26 million passengers used the Red and Green Luas lines. This was an increase of 16 per cent over 2005.

Mr Cullen would not speculate on the potential cost of the work. However, he said it was anticipated a portion of the cost would be met by property developers who were building along the route.

A public consultation meeting on the possible branches off the main Luas line is being held by the RPA at the Royal Hotel in Bray tomorrow.

© 2007 ireland.com

Transport21 Fan

Delighted to see this coming together. The link with the DART is important - hopefully they'll do it at the station in Bray. Never like the concept of restoring the link at Shanganagh Jct just for the sake of tradition.

BrianD

What a disaster for the Green Line! Does anybody see any sense in this ridiculous extension.

The news reports suggest that the cost could be €200m ... would this not be better spent on further upgrade and beefing up of the DART line? There is only so far that you can extend a light rail system without bringing it up a notch to heavy rail.

Alternatively are there other areas of the city that this budget could be put towards the construction of a new tram line.

I recall that Dustin the Dustin the Turkey used to have a line "Bring the Luas to ballywhatever". I didn't think it would turn out to be true.

Judge

No indication of cost.
No indication of timescale.
Do they take us for complete eejits? This is vapourware.

And why is the connection with the DART only aspirational? This is crucial; there are many people living in Wicklow/Wexford (especially Gorey) who work in the Cherrywood and Sandyford Business Parks for whom a connection with the DART station at Bray would open up a seriously viable public transport option for their daily commute.

Then there's the question of capacity; there is no room for the additional people who are going to be using the Luas once the Cherrywood extension comes on line before we even think about this extension. When are they going to wise up and plug this line directly into Metro North? This needs to be done NOW.

strassenwolf

Minister Cullen wrote:

"It also brings into play the sort of integration we've been trying to get, namely the connectivity between Dart services at Bray and the Luas extension," Mr Cullen said. "That's one of the things the public has wanted."

Despite what I'm sure have been his best efforts in Transport, I sincerely hope that this man is given a different role on June 14th.

I don't think that the public in and around Dublin have seen integration of DART and LUAS at Bray as a top priority. An integrated transport system is very desirable, but the priorities should be for an integrated transport system which will or might benefit large numbers of people.

"Integration" on the Dublin/Wicklow border does not really do this.

The DART/LUAS integration at Bray will have no relevance for any of the 505,000 residents of Dublin City, the 239,000 residents of Fingal or the 246,000 residents of SDCC. It may have some relevance for a small fraction of the 193,000 residents of Dun Laoghaire (prinicpally those living in the southeastern portion of the council area).

It will be of most relevance for the fraction of the 114,000 residents of County Wicklow who live in the eastern part of the county and travel into Dublin. That's not a huge number of people, compared to the numbers (ca. 1 million) for whom this "integration" will have no relevance whatsoever.

Bray already has a good connection with the city - there are lots of parts of County Dublin which do not.

It's hard not to believe that this whole project is being advanced because (i) it's a fairly easy line to build as it goes through largely undeveloped land, (ii) there will be very few objections because nobody currently lives near much of the route, (iii) the costs can be kept down because developers will contribute some of them, and (iv) the whole thing will help out a number of favoured developers. Much the same reasons as the Cherrywood extension (or pretty well any LUAS project currently under construction or discussion).

Martin Cullen's time as Minister for Transport will not be remembered for the hard, good decisions which he took in relation to transport in Dublin. No significant progress appears to have been made with the LUAS link-up, which was his number one target on taking office. The metro north looks like it's going to run well behind time, and the interconnector appears to have been completely sidelined. Integrated ticketing under his watch made no progress at all.

On the other hand, a lot of easy decisions were taken by him - advancing the LUAS to Cherrywood and Bray, to Citywest and to the Point Depot. All easy ones, really, for reasons (i)-(iv) above.

All in all it has not been a successful reign. I hope he is moved.

murphaph

Should deffo be incorporated into Metro North now! Should at a minimun be built to whatever spec is required to do it later, but we know they won't. Morons.

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

Should deffo be incorporated into Metro North now! Should at a minimun be built to whatever spec is required to do it later, but we know they won't. Morons.

The Greens are in favour of this, and it would make sense to upgrade the line at some stage.

However, they've also given an indication that they would also like to see a Broadstone-Rathfarnham metro line built in the future. You'd imagine that such a line would be somewhat to the west of a Bray-Swords metro north.

If that were the case, I wonder how they envisage those two lines integrating. (since we're on the subject)

John R

strassenwolf wrote:

The Greens are in favour of this, and it would make sense to upgrade the line at some stage.

No. It would make sense to do it now so that the necessary extra tunnelling south from Stephen's Green is incorporated in to the Metro North project. To retro-fit it at a later stage would be far more expensive and disruptive.

Also if some of the route that has been mooted for going through Leopardstown-Foxrock then it will only be suitable for slow light rail with far too many at grade road junctions.

strassenwolf wrote:

However, they've also given an indication that they would also like to see a Broadstone-Rathfarnham metro line built in the future. You'd imagine that such a line would be somewhat to the west of a Bray-Swords metro north.

Best get one project done right before a second one is planned.

Maskhadov

LUAS line to Bray when there is already heavy rail there ? what a joke.. so is LUAS

Transport21 Fan

Maskhadov wrote:

LUAS line to Bray when there is already heavy rail there what a joke

They serve two different population corridors on the way to Bray. They do not run non-stop express from Dublin to Bray and miss all the population in between. What use is a higher capacity DART running though Dalkey to people in Sandyford?

This is perfectly, normal, acceptable and is the done thing all over the world. Why is it a joke when it's done in Ireland? Integration is not just a city-centre thing. Look at any transit map of any city we look up to and similar interchanges are everywhere.

Maskhadov wrote:

.. so is LUAS

Luas is a highly successful rail system which has taken millions of private car trips off the roads, driven mainly by people who would have never taken a bus. A massive PR success for public transport in Ireland. This is why at least 7 new lines are being developed. The public want it. Must not be a joke to them.

The Luas Green Line will also have the purely geographical advantage of providing rapid transit to people on both sides of the line and not people on one and fish on the other like the DART south to Bray. Not the DART's fault of course that the Irish Sea is on one side of the line - but in terms of attracting ridership the Green Line has far greater potential. I agree with the posters that the whole thing should be upgraded to Metro level, but that's not the fault of the Luas system. Our politicians are mainly thicko cowards when it comes to this stuff. Blame them.

Luas is not a joke. It a major success considering the limitations imposed upon it by short-sighted politicians, city centre traders and gob****es journalist in Sunday Papers.

I am amazed that anyone can call Luas a joke. If nobody was using it, then fair enough. But it's bursting at the seams.

BrianD

Transport21 Fan wrote:

They serve two different population corridors on the way to Bray. They do not run non-stop express from Dublin to Bray and miss all the population in between. What use is a higher capacity DART running though Dalkey to people in Sandyford?

This is perfectly, normal, acceptable and is the done thing all over the world. Why is it a joke when it's done in Ireland? Integration is not just a city-centre thing. Look at any transit map of any city we look up to and similar interchanges are everywhere.




Luas is a highly successful rail system which has taken millions of private car trips off the roads, driven mainly by people who would have never taken a bus. A massive PR success for public transport in Ireland. This is why at least 7 new lines are being developed. The public want it. Must not be a joke to them.

The Luas Green Line will also have the purely geographical advantage of providing rapid transit to people on both sides of the line and not people on one and fish on the other like the DART south to Bray. Not the DART's fault of course that the Irish Sea is on one side of the line - but in terms of attracting ridership the Green Line has far greater potential. I agree with the posters that the whole thing should be upgraded to Metro level, but that's not the fault of the Luas system. Our politicians are mainly thicko cowards when it comes to this stuff. Blame them.

Luas is not a joke. It a major success considering the limitations imposed upon it by short-sighted politicians, city centre traders and gob****es journalist in Sunday Papers.

I am amazed that anyone can call Luas a joke. If nobody was using it, then fair enough. But it's bursting at the seams.

I wouldn't call the luas a joke and it is a successful project and is working well as is. There is room for some extension of existing lines. However, like an elastic band there is only so far your can stretch without it snapping. Problem is that some politicians now just seee it as a solution to everything which it isn't.

There is virtually no possibility of the green line ever been upgraded to metro level without it completely being rebuilt. Even the extensions won't be built to metro standard.

The last line of your post sums exactly what will happen ... bursting at the seams leading to commuter dissatifaction.

OTK

press release predicts 13m extra passenger yet fails to explain how these will fit on a service that is already full at peak times and seems to have little extra possibility of increasing capacity due to its on-street sections.

The green line runs at 25km/h while the red line only makes 15km/h due to road crossings. These new sections will operate more at red line speeds due to the huge number of road junctions. So I am guessing that the 6km extension (Sandyford-Cherrywood) will take about 24 minutes and the 7.5km section (Cherrywood-Fassaroe) will take about 30 minutes. Fassaroe-Stephen's Green in 1hr16m. DART does Bray-Pearse in 37/38 mins

Am I wrong?

Transport21 Fan

The trams will be extended to 50 metre most likely at some point but that'll be as far as the Green Line will get without an 'Luasconnector' type solution in years to come.

This is just a fact we have to deal with. The Luas is not perfect, but it's still doing an excellent job. Buses can play a major role here. But Dublin Bus needs to think of the Luas and Dart as a host they can remove passengers from at various paints along their courses. This is a huge oppertunity for Dublin Bus to develop new markets with this approach.

You see this new mentality showing up with running QBC into places such as Tara Street and Docklands station. I feel they have only explored the tip of the iceberg. But none of this can really happen without a DTA and ticketing sorted once and for all.

The saving grace of the Green line is that Sandyford is a major destination in the middle and not all the passengers from Bray etc will be heading for the city centre. Too many people in this country and on this board are hung up on the 'An Lar' notion that it's all about O'Connell Street. Dublin is becoming more like London and Berlin made up of connected urban villages. We still see how people are locked into this An Lar mentality when they say things like "Bray already has DART" and "Broadstone is too far from O'Connell Street" - we have to get this notion out of our heads. It's not that relevant anymore.

Prof_V

strassenwolf wrote:

The Greens are in favour of this, and it would make sense to upgrade the line at some stage.

However, they've also given an indication that they would also like to see a Broadstone-Rathfarnham metro line built in the future. You'd imagine that such a line would be somewhat to the west of a Bray-Swords metro north.

If that were the case, I wonder how they envisage those two lines integrating. (since we're on the subject)

I believe it was a Luas proposal (broadly in line with A Platform for Change), not a metro one.

Judge

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Luas is a highly successful rail system which has taken millions of private car trips off the roads, driven mainly by people who would have never taken a bus. A massive PR success for public transport in Ireland. This is why at least 7 new lines are being developed. The public want it. Must not be a joke to them.

It'll be interesting to see if that perception changes when Metro North is built - will people start saying, "We don't want a crappy Luas, gissa Metro"?

BrianD wrote:

There is virtually no possibility of the green line ever been upgraded to metro level without it completely being rebuilt. Even the extensions won't be built to metro standard.

Surely just the overhead lines would need to be done? And that must be scaleable i.e. do a section each weekend with closures until job is done. The guage is the same as that proposed for Metro North. The platforms are such a simple design extending them should be easy (and will have to be done for the 50m trams when they come onstream).

dowlingm

T21 fan - I seem to recall 50m not being possible due power requirements... MarkoP11?

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

T21 fan - I seem to recall 50m not being possible due power requirements... MarkoP11?

Endless love letters to IE engineering and everyday reality are two completely different things.

In today's Daily Mail there was as article by the RPA stating that 50M trams using the 40M platforms on the Green Line are on the way. Another issue I mentioned on that board about staggered running on the Green Line (ala New Jersey Bergen light rail) was utterly discounted by the same IE engineering groupie is also on the way as well. And all without his permission...:rolleyes:

Apparently the real world is a very different place than that of the "serious" expert on a message board at 4AM on a saturday morning.

steve-o

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am amazed that anyone can call Luas a joke. If nobody was using it, then fair enough. But it's bursting at the seams.

That's exactly why the Green line is a joke. The Harcourt Street line was a valuable (but disused) infrastucture asset that was squandered on a low-capacity solution. There was no vision and no future-proofing to allow for long term growth. Replacing it will a higher capacity solution will be difficult and expensive, so it probably won't ever happen.

strassenwolf

John R wrote:

No. It would make sense to do it now so that the necessary extra tunnelling south from Stephen's Green is incorporated in to the Metro North project. To retro-fit it at a later stage would be far more expensive and disruptive.

Also if some of the route that has been mooted for going through Leopardstown-Foxrock then it will only be suitable for slow light rail with far too many at grade road junctions.

I am not convinced that the metro north project should be extended out to the Green line. I believe there is a very strong case for extending it from St. Stephen's Green towards the south west of the city, e.g., Harold's Cross, Terenure, Crumlin, Rathfarnham. Several of these areas have population densities which are well capable of supporting a metro line, but do not currently have even a LUAS line.

It's all too easy to make the connection that the Green line currently terminates at St. Stephen's Green, that the metro north will terminate at St. Stephen's Green, and therefore the two things should be combined into a metro line which runs between Swords and Sandyford/Cherrywood/Bray.

This approach takes no account of the probability that there will be other LUAS lines built before the metro north is. I would like to see the justification for upgrading the Green line to a metro before other LUAS lines are even built, or the justification for upgrading the Green line to a metro ahead of upgrading some of these other potential LUAS lines.

Having said that, it certainly does not help that there are so many road crossings along the extensions to Cherrywood and Bray, in case upgrading the Green line is eventually deemed to be the best option. This is very short-sighted. I suspect there is some penny-pinching going on here, to try and build something, even if it's not a particularly well-planned option. (This often seems to be the case with public transport projects in this country - witness the RPA's plan to have just one metro station between St. Stephen's Green and the Mater Hospital (a distance of well over two kilometres) - all, apparently to keep costs to a minimum).

With the country currently wallowing in money, it seems a shame not to build the best possible lines.

strassenwolf

Prof_V wrote:

I believe it was a Luas proposal (broadly in line with A Platform for Change), not a metro one.

Indeed it was, Prof., as I've now seen on another website. My mistake.