Stand Up and be counted

Sonnenblumen

Now that some of the initial hysteria has disipated, last week's killing in Mountjoy was IMO a horrendous development. Sure attacks are not uncommon but the manner and circumstances of this incident is beyond belief.

But where all those present in the cell apart from the perpetrator and victim as Dumb or Scared as Ducks? (Sorry Karoma this has nothing to do with sex, and deviant sex for that matter, if duck sex turns you, well Quack, Quack for you.)

Seems to me they made a choice of being dumb or scared. Unbelieveable nonetheless that so many could stand around and witness such an atrocious crime. I am especially annoyed that the authorities failed in their duties not only to provide minimal protection all inmates but that that such an event could take place defies comprehension.

Dumbed or scared they all failed, but if it came to a crunch I'd rather be dead than be a Duck.:mad:

stepbar

I'd say a lot of its being the hard man, you couldnt be seen helping a fellow prisoner in need cause you mite be the next one that would get it. Culture of fear......

scojones

That's better OP.

el rabitos

should have thought about dieing BEFORE commiting a crime. 'tards

Guy:Incognito

was he not in there for gbh or sumsuch?


Ironing anyone?


I'll hold my had up to being very disinterested in the welfare of the nations criminals and what they do to each other. It certainly would not even enter my head to put my life on the line for one of them, as the op is suggesting.

connundrum

If the situation arose would you rather be dead, or an alive duck who may still be able to look after his/her 5/6 children?

Everyone has different circumstances and I wouldn't be as quick to judge without hearing everyone's story.

Karoma

...if duck sex turns you, well Quack, Quack for you.)

Talk dirty to me babeé.


It's easy to be brave sitting at home, behind a computer screen, or are am I mistaken and you are currently confined in tight quarters with people who have reason to kill you (Excluding the possibility that you managed to nab a spouse, and he/she/it hates you-I mean, really want to kill you)? Have you ever been stabbed? It's not pleasurable.

Giblet

I have the plans tatoo'd on my persons, let's go!

Sonnenblumen

el rabitos wrote:

should have thought about dieing BEFORE commiting a crime. 'tards

Most people do not think about dying, in prison you probably have more time to do so. However the victim wasn't in prison to die and why are you focussing on the gbh. That's irrelevant, it could also have been someone who refuses to pay refuse charges/parking fines etc etc. Perhaps it's easier for you to rationalise the horror because the victim had a 'gbh' history.

With respect you're missing the point.

Guy:Incognito

Sonnenblumen wrote:

That's irrelevant, it could also have been someone who refuses to pay refuse charges/parking fines etc etc. .

maybe they'll think about paying the relevant charge and staying out of jail now so.All in all the exchequer is the winner. People paying their bills and less criminals to feed/house.

Guy:Incognito

Sonnenblumen wrote:

why are you focussing on the gbh

He was attacked as a result of being somewhere because he attacked someone else. Whats that old saying about the circle going the whole way round?

el rabitos

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Most people do not think about dying, in prison you probably have more time to do so. However the victim wasn't in prison to die and why are you focussing on the gbh. That's irrelevant, it could also have been someone who refuses to pay refuse charges/parking fines etc etc. Perhaps it's easier for you to rationalise the horror because the victim had a 'gbh' history.

With respect you're missing the point.

should have thought about dieing BEFORE he/she didnt pay those parking fines

Sonnenblumen

connundrum wrote:

If the situation arose would you rather be dead, or an alive duck who may still be able to look after his/her 5/6 children?

Everyone has different circumstances and I wouldn't be as quick to judge without hearing everyone's story.

If he's in prison, he's hardly looking after the family terribly well? Surely respect for human life, respect the duty to come to someone's aid in time of need are much more important than taking kids on holidays/McDonalds?

If no one stands up to oppression, who will be the next victim? We've had two world wars to defend freedom.

stepbar

Sonnenblumen wrote:

If no one stands up to oppression, who will be the next victim? We've had two world wars to defend freedom.

We have guards to deal with the oppression

InFront

Sonnenblumen wrote:

We've had two world wars to defend freedom.

What?! Off topic, but... no.
We've had one.

I'd like to think I would have done something if I were in their position. I honestly dont think I could watch somebody be murdered, let alone in the way that this guy was.

I dont believe that his death is any less important because he was in prison. You go to prison, you pay for what you do fair and square. Getting killed wasnt in the contract.

Guy:Incognito

Jesus your some drama queen. Oppression? He was a criminal, killed in jail by another criminal.Hardly a reason to ring martin luther king and start a civil rights movement.


If it was your mother he was locked up for attacking would you feel the same about him being killed?

Duff Man Jr.

I think the first question can be answered by asking have you ever seen Oz?

stepbar

Stekelly wrote:

Jesus your some drama queen. Oppression? He was a criminal, killed in jail by another criminal.Hardly a reason to ring martin luther king and start a civil rights movement.

LOL

Stekelly wrote:

If it was your mother he was locked up for attacking would you feel the same about him being killed?

Dont start bringing mothers into it now

Sonnenblumen

Stekelly wrote:

Jesus your some drama queen. Oppression? He was a criminal, killed in jail by another criminal.Hardly a reason to ring martin luther king and start a civil rights movement.


If it was your mother he was locked up for attacking would you feel the same about him being killed?

Steady on, if you don't like it leave alone, and don't start the insults. You're missing the point, you're focussing on the victim and not the group which stood around watching. Because a criminal was killing another criminal that makes it OK?

Would you do nothing if it was your brother that was being attacked?

Karoma

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Steady on, if you don't like it leave alone, and don't start the insults. You're missing the point, you're focussing on the victim and not the group which stood around watching. Because a criminal was killing another criminal that makes it OK?

Would you do nothing if it was your brother that was being attacked?

What? The guys standing around were related to the guy being attacked?

Guy:Incognito

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Steady on, if you don't like it leave alone, and don't start the insults. You're missing the point, you're focussing on the victim and not the group which stood around watching. Because a criminal was killing another criminal that makes it OK?

Would you do nothing if it was your brother that was being attacked?

Theres a good chance I'd risk my life for my Mother/Father/Brother/Son. Outside that list you are going to have to be doing something very special for me or owe me a LOT of money.

Note: Stopping you being killed is very different from risking your life. In this case I'd have seen interfering as risking my life, so I again
refer you to the 4 name list above. In this situation, if you are not on the above list I'm rolling over and going back to sleep.

Oh, and dram queen is hardly an insult. Besides you were the one screaming oppression.

stepbar

Seriously, if we are looking at groups here you need to understand a bit of group psychology. TBH honest you have 5-6 guys in a room who know jack **** about each other, dont give a **** about each other and are criminals. There was no group norm buzz, they didnt give a **** about one another. They are criminals. Criminals dont usually give a ****e about too many things never mind other criminals. Right or wrong, I wouldnt expect any of them to start growing a consciousness all of a sudden.

Sonnenblumen

Karoma wrote:

Talk dirty to me babeé.


It's easy to be brave sitting at home, behind a computer screen, or are am I mistaken and you are currently confined in tight quarters with people who have reason to kill you (Excluding the possibility that you managed to nab a spouse, and he/she/it hates you-I mean, really want to kill you)? Have you ever been stabbed? It's not pleasurable.

Brave actions require clear thinking and no I've never been stabbed. It's easy to be selfish, all you got to do is ignore everyone.

Sonnenblumen

stepbar wrote:

Seriously, if we are looking at groups here you need to understand a bit of group psychology. TBH honest you have 5-6 guys in a room who know jack **** about each other, dont give a **** about each other and are criminals. There was no group norm buzz, they didnt give a **** about one another. They are criminals. Criminals dont usually give a ****e about too many things never mind other criminals. Right or wrong, I wouldnt expect any of them to start growing a consciousness all of a sudden.

If the group were a bunch of rabbits (or ducks) then I would agree with your GP analysis, but in fact criminals are very aware of other inmates and in fact there is a hierarchy of crimes which precipitate violent behaviour, eg rapists, child molesters must be segregated from the main group.

What's worrying is that not many people give a ****e either or are you implying that criminals have reduced responsiblities to non-criminals?

el rabitos

the bottom line is, dont do anything to risk getting put in jail, because whatever happens in there is your own problem.

Ruu_Old

el rabitos wrote:

the bottom line is, dont do anything to risk getting put in jail, because whatever happens in there is your own problem.

Sums it up for me really.

RoundyMooney

Yup.

If some of the hand wringing liberals had their way, penal servitude would be a more appealing fate than staying in Bewleys and having to fork out for your fry the morning after...

stepbar

Look Im not advcating anything. TBH criminals dont use the same "logic" you or I use. What reason would they have to protect their fellow inmates, lets be honest why would they give a ****e? They are not there by choice

Giblet

I can swallow a whole batch loaf in one gulp boys.

Sonnenblumen

el rabitos wrote:

the bottom line is, dont do anything to risk getting put in jail, because whatever happens in there is your own problem.

And throw away the key?

RoundyMooney

Giblet wrote:

I can swallow a whole batch loaf in one gulp boys.

Maybe, but you still gotta pay for it...

Or have I missed a movie reference somewhere?

/slaps self

el rabitos

Sonnenblumen wrote:

And throw away the key?

or throw it at u for trying to be all maud flanders-like

u commit a crime -> u go to jail -> whatever happens for the duration of ur time is your problem.

solution?

think twice before u dont pay those parking fines

Sonnenblumen

stepbar wrote:

Look Im not advcating anything. TBH criminals dont use the same "logic" you or I use. What reason would they have to protect their fellow inmates, lets be honest why would they give a ****e? They are not there by choice

Some might, some might not, some might be very capable of using logic. But is bonding required to prevent someone dying? They all stood around and watched a random killing!

Recall the public outcry over the Halal killing of sheep ? Because this killing took place in a prison doesn't make it any less a killing?

RoundyMooney

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Recall the public outcry over the Halal killing of sheep ? Because this killing took place in a prison doesn't make it any less a killing?

Well, the public would seem by their apathy to disagree with you there, old chum, and in this instance, the public are right.

A rarity of course, but it happens.

Terry

Sonnenblumen wrote:

They all stood around and watched a random killing!

were you there to witness the actions of everyone involved?
unless you were, i don't really think you should make these claims.
only the people present actually know what went down.
what if they all thought it was just another fight and decided it was best not to get involved until it was too late?
i don't know how i would react in a similar situation. i don't think anyone can say for sure how they personally would react until.
it's not until you are in that kind of situation that you can really decide what to do.

Sonnenblumen

el rabitos wrote:

the bottom line is, dont do anything to risk getting put in jail, because whatever happens in there is your own problem.

Well if your view of human life is similar to criminals, does that not concern you?

el rabitos

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Well if your view of human life is similar to criminals, does that not concern you?

how do u know what my opinion of human life is?

i'm talking about taking responsibility for your actions.

Sonnenblumen

julep wrote:

were you there to witness the actions of everyone involved?
unless you were, i don't really think you should make these claims.
only the people present actually know what went down.
what if they all thought it was just another fight and decided it was best not to get involved until it was too late?
i don't know how i would react in a similar situation. i don't think anyone can say for sure how they personally would react until.
it's not until you are in that kind of situation that you can really decide what to do.

Nobody was reported injured (physical), I'm sure some will suffer trauma apparently the killing was described as a slow and very bloody. Ultimately no one confronting a life or death scenario knows for sure what will actually happen, but turning my back doesn't appeal to me.

slipss

stepbar wrote:

Look Im not advcating anything. TBH criminals dont use the same "logic" you or I use. What reason would they have to protect their fellow inmates, lets be honest why would they give a ****e? They are not there by choice

lol So are you saying if you were driving down the road and you ran a red light, or if a kid robs a packet of sweets, the part of your brain that controls your "logic" would all of a sudden be permanently damaged somehow? Care to try and explain that?

Sonnenblumen

El Rabitos,

Someone is murdered in prison but that isn't your problem. The guys who witnessed didn't think it was their problem either.

If one doesn't think responsibly, how we do know if we are behaving responsibly?

slipss

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Now that some of the initial hysteria has disipated, last week's killing in Mountjoy was IMO a horrendous development. Sure attacks are not uncommon but the manner and circumstances of this incident is beyond belief.

But where all those present in the cell apart from the perpetrator and victim as Dumb or Scared as Ducks? (Sorry Karoma this has nothing to do with sex, and deviant sex for that matter, if duck sex turns you, well Quack, Quack for you.)

Seems to me they made a choice of being dumb or scared. Unbelieveable nonetheless that so many could stand around and witness such an atrocious crime. I am especially annoyed that the authorities failed in their duties not only to provide minimal protection all inmates but that that such an event could take place defies comprehension.

Dumbed or scared they all failed, but if it came to a crunch I'd rather be dead than be a Duck.:mad:

It's impossible for anyone that wasn't there to say why no one did anything. Personally I think Julep is probably right and that they figured it was just another fight and didn't want to get involved, then it was too late.

I've been in similar situations before, never in prison, I'm sure most people have to some extent. When I was growing up, junkies used to get jumped by concerned parents i.e. "vigilantes" i.e. drunk oul fellas that wanted to feel like big men, all the time where I lived. Now most of the time I wouldn't know the junkie and couldn't give a sh1t about them normally, but I'd always step in and try to stop it if I thought the bloke was in danger of being seriously hurt. Alot off the time I'd end up getting jumped meself for my trouble, but still I'd never be able to just stand there and let someone get kicked to death, no matter who it was. Most of my friends would be the exact same way. Maybe it comes from being on the recieving end of a beating a few times and lying there just praying for someone to do something, or maybe it's just because I was raised properly. If someone is just too afraid to step in I can kinda understand that but if your attitude is just "its nothing to do with me, he's only a...." in my opinion your a prick.

Giblet

I killed a man in prison before because he took my pencil case.

el rabitos

Sonnenblumen wrote:

how do u know what my opinion of human life is?

i'm talking about taking responsibility for your actions.

Someone is murdered in prison but that isn't your problem. The guys who witnessed didn't think it was their problem either.

If one doesn't think responsibly, how we do know if we are behaving responsibly?

well i think one is talking out of ones backside.

my point is, u dont put urself in that situation. if you go to prison, its your problem

Sonnenblumen

And what happens in prison is not your problem? Are you also indifferent to crime within prison?

The Hill Billy

Off to Humanities with the lot of ye!
Giblet's the only one talking sense around here.

Sonnenblumen wrote:

We've had two world wars to defend freedom.

Says the boardie with the "german" name.

As a matter of fact there were no "world wars" around these parts. Although there was The Great War & The Emergency.

Jotter

Years ago I knew a guy who ended up in prison. He was a bit of a hard man but he still admitted to being scared about going in. He was in a cell that was overcrowded, slept on a mattress, the cell had rats in it, he also kept his head shaved to keep headlice at bay. I went to visit him one day and he had a black eye, he said some junkie had jumped on him out of the blue with a razor but he gave him a good kicking and this ensured noone else would go near him again. Thats the way it is. After that he got on grand.

All of the above sounds terrible, and while I didnt like to see him in such a place he did do the crime (abh) and deserved to do the time which was 2 years and he served every day of it and I was glad he did. He came out, moved from dublin, got a girlfriend and a job and although im sure hes not an angel hell think twice about hopping on someone again bec he doesnt want to go back. Hes one of the few people that prison actually worked on.

My point is that prison isnt nice, it would be a crying shame if it was bec it would defeat the purpose. It is terrible that people stood around and watched another person being killed like that but as others have stated its not like watching someone get beaten on the street - its a confined cell, confined space and its every man for himself. The guy who did the killing was obviously a nutter and likely to go for anyone who got in his way, and im not talking about getting a slap. Its not like they can call 999 discreetly and say someones being attacked. In all fairness you werent there and you have no idea what you would do if you were - wed all like to think wed do something -my guess though is that youd be in shock and wouldnt do a whole lot. All youd be interested in after seeing that is making sure it doesnt happen to you so you can go home in one piece.

connundrum

Sonnenblumen wrote:

If he's in prison, he's hardly looking after the family terribly well? Surely respect for human life, respect the duty to come to someone's aid in time of need are much more important than taking kids on holidays/McDonalds?

If no one stands up to oppression, who will be the next victim? We've had two world wars to defend freedom.

My words were 'may still be able to look after his kids' - as in when he gets out after serving his 30 days for possession or something like that

So have we gathered if you would be happy enough to put your life on the line for someone who had raped/killed/tortured others? Where would you draw the line?

What if that person had raped/tortured you, and he was getting beat to death in a cell beside you.. would you go to his aid?

uberpixie

Jotter wrote:

My point is that prison isnt nice, it would be a crying shame if it was bec it would defeat the purpose. It is terrible that people stood around and watched another person being killed like that but as others have stated its not like watching someone get beaten on the street - its a confined cell, confined space and its every man for himself. The guy who did the killing was obviously a nutter and likely to go for anyone who got in his way, and im not talking about getting a slap. Its not like they can call 999 discreetly and say someones being attacked. In all fairness you werent there and you have no idea what you would do if you were - wed all like to think wed do something -my guess though is that youd be in shock and wouldnt do a whole lot. All youd be interested in after seeing that is making sure it doesnt happen to you so you can go home in one piece.

Spot on.

In all honesty, what are you going to have to do to stop the kind of nutter that beats someone to death like that?

Tap em on the shoulder, "eh sorry bud but you are killing him:o".

[physco] "yeah I know, thats the idea, f u c k off".

I'm sorry, but if you were in prision and you saw some nutbag of that caliber beating someone to death slowly, chances are you would have the sense to keep your mouth shut.
(I know I would)

Interfering in a situation like that would only result in a lot pain, your pain.

If that guy was the kind to do something like that to another person, whats he going to do to you for pissing him off and getting in the way?

A nutbag like that, if wanted to kill someone, he was always going to.

Now he can kill that guy and you keep your mouth shut and stay out of it.

Or he can kill that guy, you get in the way and piss him off and after killing the guy he goes out of his way to make your life hell.

In all honesty anyone with sense in that situation would stay out off it.

Sleepy

See my sig.

Though tbh, I can think of far better things to stand up and be counted over than the life of a thug.

Evil_Bilbo

the other prisoners were scared of this psycho and his insane violence. Not sure how reliable this is, but I was reading in some rag (sun/star) that the killer smeared poo on yer mans corpse and tried to get the other prisoners to rape him / bite his mickey off etc.

Apparently "the demons got under his skin" or something - I dont think anyone would step up to a raging nut like that - I'm sure the whole group couldve taken him on, but were probably too scared to be the first (seeing what happened the other guy). One prisoner had to be taken to a mental institution after the attacks he was so disturbed.

I dont think I'd have done anything except hide in the corner if I was in that situation, though I'd like to think I wouldve tried to alert a guard or something.

and poo-poo to all you sayin "he shouldn't have been in jail in the first place". That's like something your mother would say if a teacher bet hell out of you for no apparent reason. sure he commited a crime - he didnt deserve to be brutally murdered.

WhiteWashMan

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Steady on, if you don't like it leave alone, and don't start the insults. You're missing the point, you're focussing on the victim and not the group which stood around watching. Because a criminal was killing another criminal that makes it OK?

Would you do nothing if it was your brother that was being attacked?

thats not an argument.

you give out about people not getting the point of you talking about those people standing around, and then you try and make an argument about the victim being a brother?

no no no.

it would make more sense if you asked if the brother was one of those standing around.

and in this case, id rather he didnt do anything to jeprodise his safety and health by helping out someone being murdered.