BJJ-A humane approach?

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

Just thought I would throw a quick question out there to any interested parties.

Something that I have become aware of in my research into other martial art styles is the way practitioners of Brazilian Ju-Jitsu view themselves. I have read and heard on more than one occasion them describe their art as a humane solution to the problem of combat where they can subdue their opponent without causing them undue damage. A worthy approach indeed.

However I have recognised that their is a strong relationship between BJJ and MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) and that a lot of BJJ practitioners also train Muay Thai as part of their MMA training. The aim of Muay Thai would seem to be the opposite to BJJ and in the ring or street would focus on damaging their opponent with full power kicks, knees, elbows and punches to the head amongst other things.

As I practise martial arts whose aim is the same as Muay Thai with the addition of hitting people over the head with sticks, machetes and knives I am in no position to judge Muay Thai which I also practise.

However are there any BJJ practitioners out there who value the humane approach of their art but who also practise or promote Muay Thai and if so, does it cause them any ethical problems or like the main character in the book, "The Life of Pi", can they be both a Muslim and a Christian at the same time?

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

lol - are you not on holiday now?

seriously though, what do you think?

my honest opinion on this is that until you have a decent level in stand-up, clinch and ground plus have had the experience of a couple of MMA fights then none of this makes sense. trying to explain swimming to someone who's never heard of water.

tired and hungry as i'm dieting hard now...off to bed...sprints await me in the morning

waterford mma

what weight are you at jk? how much left to go?

Tim_Murphy

humane?:rolleyes:
Everybody knows that KOs are much cooler than submissions, that's all there is to it! :cool:

Ph3n0m

Tim_Murphy wrote:

humane?:rolleyes:
Everybody knows that KOs are much cooler than submissions, that's all there is to it! :cool:

yeah but what about submissions with bone breakages even cooler

Dragan

john kavanagh wrote:

tired and hungry as i'm dieting hard now...off to bed...sprints await me in the morning

Yeah John, my apologies as work went crazy and i have been unable to commit myself to working out a decent conditioning program purely for grappling.

I have however made some ground on my MMA "changable conditioning routine" that i hope to have completed in the next week or two.

It's shaping up nicely.

judomick

i believe its a more humane approach to choke someone out rather than try and knock them out, for obvious reasons also a choke will put someone to sleep 10 out of 10 times whereas a punch does not always guarantee a knockout, The reason there closely linked i would guess is something to do with old time brazil when vale tudo (anything goes) fights were common, for whatever reason the Gracies entered a number of them, and winning alot of them!

Through the evolution of MMA and as people began to see some of the weaknesses in BJJ i.e Clinch as discussed in another thread they began to cross train, so in turn the "BJJ fighters Also had to cross train which led to training in Boxing or Muay thai

This is how mma fighters evolved, 75% of The BJJ students at SBG dont train Striking, because they dont train MMA

I dont train BJJ because its humane i train because, 1. its fun 2. it has been pressure tested numerous times and therefore is a condensed art that continues to evolve with new techniques etc, which is why you can question BJJ all day long and always get a logical answer, BJJ doesnt hide anything and has no bull****,

I think the fact that a choke is more humane, is coincidence a good one though;)

john kavanagh

waterford mma wrote:

what weight are you at jk? how much left to go?

ah i'm in good mood now:) gone from 72.7 (fat) to 70.9 (not so fat) since monday morning. just finished my sprints training and i'm enjoying my 'Franklin Shake', which is my biggest hit of carbs for the day.

i'm aiming to be 68.5kgs by sept 9th for Supreme Grappling Championships

and then 66kgs by oct 1st for ADCC UK OPEN

micheal i presume you mean THE STREET coz in the ring there can be no violence, by definition. and in THE STREET for that EXTREMELY rare situation where you're in a physical confrontation (maybe 2-3 times in your adult life) well you're gonna do what you gotta do. if you're acting purely in self defence then your conscious will be clear.

john kavanagh

Dragan wrote:

Yeah John, my apologies as work went crazy and i have been unable to commit myself to working out a decent conditioning program purely for grappling.

I have however made some ground on my MMA "changable conditioning routine" that i hope to have completed in the next week or two.

It's shaping up nicely.

no worries mate. have my program done out now so i'm good to go.

looking forward to seeing the MMA one though:)

Roper

Humane eh? I believe they use BJJ on lab monkeys now instead of Muay Thai....

Anyway. I think Mick put it right. BJJ is humane by coincidence rather than attempt. If a choke out caused concussion I think people would still do it because its so effective.

Dragan,
Hit me up with those workouts fella!

John,
Do you need an entourage for the ADCC!:D

Dragan

Roper wrote:

Dragan,
Hit me up with those workouts fella!

Will do, will be hoping that you, Pearse and John will all test them out for me tbh.


Now then, I wanted to take sometime to think before I answer this question but basically it all boils down to why your training whatever art your are training.

For me, there are three main reasons why anyone would train any art.

1) Enjoyment. - You just like your art, you don't want to compete, you don't want to use it, you just want to train it and that makes you happy.
2) For competition - you love your art and would like to test it out against others off similar skill levels, just to see how you stand. You want to compete, but not hurt anyone.
3) To hurt someone - you long for the day when you can unleash your skills and prove how hard you are.

Regardless of the art, the teacher or the student….nearly every class will contain a certain mix of the above. It doesn't matter what you train but you will always find those who want to hurt people…..and you can have the most vicious of martial arts being trained by those who would NEVER want to hurt people.

In much the same way that we do not assume that to study RBSD is to go looking for fights, or to study Escrima means you want to buckle someone with a stick, I don't think we can assume that to study MT means you want to hurt people.

Without getting too much into it it is important that "MMA" is trained from a sporting point of view….whatever tools give you the advantage in the sport are ones you should be training…..but remember 99% of MMA fighters are out to win, they are NOT out to hurt there opponent. Injury is just a by product of what you might need to do to win the match….there is a difference between applying an arm bar to make someone tap and applying and arm bar to make something snap.

ninjawitatitude

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Everybody knows that KOs are much cooler than submissions, that's all there is to it!

Ph3n0m wrote:

yeah but what about submissions with bone breakages even cooler

You are both way off, this seasons must have finish is sub-zero's spine extracting death move.

Ph3n0m

ninjawitatitude wrote:

You are both way off, this seasons must have finish is sub-zero's spine extracting death move.

Damn and there was I go for Ryu's ultimate Dragon Uppercut

mark.leonard

Michael O Leary wrote:

However are there any BJJ practitioners out there who value the humane approach of their art but who also practise or promote Muay Thai and if so, does it cause them any ethical problems or like the main character in the book, "The Life of Pi", can they be both a Muslim and a Christian at the same time?

For any decision moral or ethical I'd have to refer you to another topic about carrying weapons and such. Summarised my outlook would be - "Ask yourself - What would Jack Bauer do?"

Judo Mick wrote:

.....a choke will put someone to sleep 10 out of 10 times whereas a punch does not always guarantee a knockout...

Unless of course Thunder and Lightening are behind those punches, then you would knock them out 11 times out of 10 (sometimes thunder and lightening powered punches knock people out twice per punch!)

waterford mma

john kavanagh wrote:

ah i'm in good mood now:) gone from 72.7 (fat) to 70.9 (not so fat) since monday morning. just finished my sprints training and i'm enjoying my 'Franklin Shake', which is my biggest hit of carbs for the day.

i'm aiming to be 68.5kgs by sept 9th for Supreme Grappling Championships

and then 66kgs by oct 1st for ADCC UK OPEN
.

not too far to go so . . that 66 is gonna be tough though. best of luck

judomick

mark.leonard wrote:

Unless of course Thunder and Lightening are behind those punches, then you would knock them out 11 times out of 10 (sometimes thunder and lightening powered punches knock people out twice per punch!)

Quite true, guess i was wrong;)

Cake Fiend

john kavanagh wrote:

where you're in a physical confrontation (maybe 2-3 times in your adult life) well you're gonna do what you gotta do. if you're acting purely in self defence then your conscious will be clear.

Spot on, I don't know many people who are going to be concerned with being 'humane' with some knacker who's just tried to glass them (bar worrying about legal repercussions).

mark.leonard wrote:

Unless of course Thunder and Lightening are behind those punches, then you would knock them out 11 times out of 10 (sometimes thunder and lightening powered punches knock people out twice per punch!)

Aren't 'Thunder' and 'Lightning' the names of Jack Bauer's left and right fists?

Tim_Murphy

You are both way off, this seasons must have finish is sub-zero's spine extracting death move.

I stand corrected! Unfortunately spine attacks generally are not allowed in Irish MMA. :rolleyes:

Ph3n0m

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I stand corrected! Unfortunately spine attacks generally are not allowed in Irish MMA. :rolleyes:

What? That is just unthinkable - its not about which MMA is better, its about good vs evil, some weird guy who commands lightning and also who has the best outfit

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

I got back from Croatia 2 days ago and did my repeat Tax exam today. It went pretty good and cumulated in the end of six years of studying. I walked out feeling like a hero, found the nearest skip and threw bag, books, notes, pens, calculator and everything into it and went for a pint.

Thanks for all the replies so far but before I go any further I just want to check if anyone has any problems with me asking these questions about BJJ on this forum?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

SorGan

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi all,

I got back from Croatia 2 days ago and did my repeat Tax exam today. It went pretty good and cumulated in the end of six years of studying. I walked out feeling like a hero, found the nearest skip and threw bag, books, notes, pens, calculator and everything into it and went for a pint.

Thanks for all the replies so far but before I go any further I just want to check if anyone has any problems with me asking these questions about BJJ on this forum?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

well done mick, nothing beats well deserved pints

judomick

Michael O Leary wrote:

Thanks for all the replies so far but before I go any further I just want to check if anyone has any problems with me asking these questions about BJJ on this forum?

as ive said Michael, BJJ is a always open to questions thats why it continues to evolve, we question it every time we step on the mat!

mirwillbeback

judomick wrote:

i believe its a more humane approach to choke someone out rather than try and knock them out, for obvious reasons also a choke will put someone to sleep 10 out of 10 times whereas a punch does not always guarantee a knockout,

I think the fact that a choke is more humane, is coincidence a good one though;)

something i've always wondered is if the choke is 100% safe to put on - is there ever a danger of seriously injuring someone in the few seconds it takes to put them out ( i dont mean holding it for 30secs + ) or if you let go as soon as the start to zzzz are you ok?

if someone can say yes for definite, i can feel some kinky games coming on :eek:

loz

mirwillbeback wrote:

something i've always wondered is if the choke is 100% safe to put on - is there ever a danger of seriously injuring someone in the few seconds it takes to put them out ( i dont mean holding it for 30secs + ) or if you let go as soon as the start to zzzz are you ok?

if someone can say yes for definite, i can feel some kinky games coming on :eek:

Oh sweet jesus,

Maybe phone Adrian Kennedy and discuss tonight ?


Muppetrey 101

Roper

mirwillbeback wrote:

if someone can say yes for definite, i can feel some kinky games coming on :eek:

I never, ever, ever, want to roll with you

columok

mirwillbeback wrote:

if someone can say yes for definite, i can feel some kinky games coming on

Roper wrote:

Really? You too. PM sent.

I... ...want to roll with you

Roper

Ah yes, the edited quote. The age old trick of the projector....:D

loz

columok wrote:

Can someone show me the telephone cord RNC tonight ?

Michael O Leary

mirwillbeback wrote:

something i've always wondered is if the choke is 100% safe to put on - is there ever a danger of seriously injuring someone in the few seconds it takes to put them out ( i dont mean holding it for 30secs + ) or if you let go as soon as the start to zzzz are you ok?

Hi lads,

Aside from the banter can anyone address the question? Is there a risk involved. Mirwillbeback beat me to the question.

Thanks in advance.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Roper

Short answer is no. The equivalent to holding a choke after its put some one out, is knocking somone out with a punch and contnuing to beat them after they're unconscious. It wouldn't happen in either competition or training.

Michael O Leary

Hi Roper,

That makes sense but I am not talking about keeping someone in a choke when they are out but how much risk is involved in putting them out with a choke in the first place?

How long on average will someone stay out?

Is there a chance someone will not regain conciousness?

Is there any risk of lasting damage?

Physically when happens to the body which makes someone pass out?

Thanks.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

mirwillbeback

Roper wrote:

I never, ever, ever, want to roll with you

I have rohypnol so you might not get a choice.;)

columok

Apparently there are risks with older people (as in geriatric age all joking aside) and people with sickle cell aneamia. Otherwise no it's fairly safe. Besides outside of competition I always tap when I can't get out of something. Proving that you can sit there in somebodies triangle for 30 seconds is pointless.

Roper wrote:

I believe in intelligent design and the power of magick.

Projecting eh?;)

Dragan

Hey guys, deterioration will begin to occur roughly about 5 MINS after an individual cell has used up it's last bit of oxygen.

So consider that the brain would have enough stored oxygen to function at full capacity for a few minutes AFTER the supply of oxygent is cut ( note i said function, not stay concious....sense are the first thing the brain will shut down afterall! ) then the chances of someone being injured by accident from a RNC, or any other type of choke would extrememly minute.

As Colum said, maybe some kind circumstance that leads to an overly adverse reaction might do something, but even then you would have a large degree of comfort.

I would predict you would need to have someone out for about 7 mins and keep the choke applied in full for that lenght of time before any slight damage would begin to occur.

As such, the likelihood of any such accident would be very small.....and you couldn't even cover this with carelessness to be hoenst.

Roper

Michael O Leary wrote:

Physically when happens to the body which makes someone pass out?

I suppose the term choke is a bit misleading as it puts you in mind of how someone might get killed in Murder She Wrote or something. Best to think of it as a strangle that reduces the flow of blood to the brain momentarily causing a blackout. It sounds nasty but you know its on and you tap way before any of that takes place! As for damage, see Dragan's post above, you'd need to be seriously intending to hurt someone for that to happen, and if you're doing that, then you're a psychopath. Simple eh?

kenpo_dave

Hey Barry. Do you guys use these chokes at all?

http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/graphics/judo_choke01.jpg

OSU,

Dave.

columok

Forearm choke? From the front in the form of a guillotine. From the back I would have thought you're better off with a RNC.

Roper

kenpo_dave wrote:

Hey Barry. Do you guys use these chokes at all?

http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/graphics/judo_choke01.jpg

OSU,

Dave.

Uh, sure why not??

kenpo_dave

columok wrote:

Forearm choke? From the front in the form of a guillotine. From the back I would have thought you're better off with a RNC.

The guillotine type choke affects the air intake to the lungs, which induces panic. Its a very effective choke. Though there is more risk involved as you can damage the throat. Just wondering if anyone here uses it.

OSU,

Dave.

Roper

I'd say everybody uses it. Yes there is a risk, but its about training smart with it. Nobody gets hurt when you train smart no matter what the technique.

judomick

I spoke to a Doctor about this and was told a strangle (where you constrict the carotid arteries) has the same physical effect as fainting, usually it takes about 6 seconds for the opponent to go unconscious and about 10 seconds for them to come around if the chokes held for longer it takes a bit longer for them to regain consciousness, as regards a Guillotine choke, the windpipe is quite tough and the pressure generated is nowhere near enough or concentrated enough to do any damage, a knockout by striking is more dangerous as your basically making the brain shut down due to trauma, and any subsequent punches... well definately not good

The picture link is called a hadaka jime same, pretty much a reverse guillotine

loz

columok wrote:

Forearm choke? From the front in the form of a guillotine. From the back I would have thought you're better off with a RNC.

I find this easier and quicker to get on than an RNC,

The arm has shorter distance to travel once you break a gap in the neck guard, ( from fingertips to forearm, as opposed to RNC where you have to get fingers, forearm past neck - and travel to the elbow joint to apply )

Then again - I'm no expert and may have my RNC all wrong !

john kavanagh

in all the millions of BJJ, Judo, MMA, Submission Wrestling matches held over the last number of years i've heard of ZERO cases of someone being seroiusly hurt from a choke

Scramble

A few deaths occurred in the 70s and 80s in the US when the LAPD were using two neck restraint techniques in their use of force policy. They were placed more or less on a par with using a baton. They called these 'the bar arm' (a choke across the windpipe using the forearm) and 'the carotid restraint' (a strangle constricting the carotid arteries using the elbow). The policy was that either would be employed 'until resistance ceases' but for no longer than three minutes.

A journal article on this subject: http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB/1982neckholds.html

This page below gives a brief summary of some of the things that went wrong in individual cases, which resulted in a change in LAPD policy (and a lot of civil suits against individual officers and a high-ranking officer called Daryl Gates who suggested that blacks were anatomically more likely than whites to die as a result of these techniques).

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6416/review16.html

I think Matt Thornton might have referred to these cases at his last Dublin seminar, when he mentioned something to the effect that problems had arisen with US police forces and chokes/strangles because there were problems with how the material was taught. Anecdotally, there was even supposed to have been a trainee who died from a broken neck at the academy.

Maybe not everyone will agree with me on this, but I think the context in which someone applies a strangle or choke on duty as a police officer (or as a private citizen defending themselves) is intrinscally more problematic than one applied in training or even in a competitive bout. I don't like to sound like one of those guys who talks about the deaded 'deadly street confrontation', but I do think there is more to go wrong in this context. Police officers or minimally trained people may have worse technique than a competitive fighter, for a start, and this coupled with the adrenaline and surprise element of this kind of situation also make it harder to recognise when 'enough is enough' and gauge how much physical force is actually being employed. Maybe most importantly, they don't know the medical history of the other person, they may not respond the way an athlete who is familliar with what is happening will. Of course, all of these things are true of any type of technique, not specifically just a choke or a strangle. The answer seems to be proper coaching and a clear use of force policy for everyone involved.

(I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but there is also this article by an MD on the subject of deaths in Judo as a result of shime-waza, which looks interesting. http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm)

Dragan

I feel it is very important to note a few things with regard to police forces using chokes and chokes being used in a sportin environment.

1) Circumstance - a trained fighter buts a choke on in a situation that they are very comfortable with. Once the choke is applied they do not need to worry at all about any other factor, the choke is locked in.

A police office will need to be well aware other things, and in my mind couldn't concentrate 100% on the choke.

2) The Choke when applied in a sporting sense is done to bring a victory....sure it is put on a resisting opponent but this opponent is very skilled, his escapes would be technique based. The escape attempts of some criminal would not be , they would be brute raw force, which would only improve the likelihood of damge.

3) In a sporting field, when your opp knows it's over and the choke will result in them passing out there will tap, 99% of the time.

The criminal will be far less likely to tap, and much more likely to fight, incorrectly, the choke until the point of passing out.

4) The fact that the officer is applying the choke to someone who will most likely kill them should they release it would mean that they would be more likely to leave it on longer than would be needed. This would not happen in a sporting field. Ref or trainer intervention would ensure that.

Finally i will sum it up by simply pointing out that the cops have killed people using the choke method, MMA/BJJ athletes have not.

So who is using them right?

john kavanagh

Scramble wrote:

Maybe not everyone will agree with me on this, but I think the context in which someone applies a strangle or choke on duty as a police officer (or as a private citizen defending themselves) is intrinscally more problematic than one applied in training

agreed.....but then again street fighting is a dangerous game. you hit the guy, he falls bangs his head and dies....plus a trillion other 'maybes' and 'what ifs'

for an experienced grappler its defineatly the safest way to finish a fight when you consider the options when running away is not one of them

1. repeated head trauma until he stops moving KO
2. breaking one or more limbs until they cant fight anymore
3. put them out with a strangle

judomick

Dragan wrote:

So who is using them right?

The people who train them consistantly

Dragan

judomick wrote:

The people who train them consistantly

Bingo.

judomick

Dragan wrote:

Bingo.

But imo this is down to the fact that the police do not train these on a regular basis, and because of this are probably unaware of whatever variables might occur or just lack of experience

Dragan

judomick wrote:

But imo this is down to the fact that the police do not train these on a regular basis, and because of this are probably unaware of whatever variables might occur or just lack of experience

Exactly, but if the police are going to be utilising a technique that can put another human being, criminal or not, at risk then it should be trained consistently.

I would not like to question the training that any police office would have received at the time, but i would imagine it could have been better, and continued.

Mick, you train week in and week out to perfect these techniques and they should be doing the same!!

columok

IMO ALL Gardai who work the mean streets of ireland should have compulsory Greco Roman Wrestling or Judo classes twice a week. Also there should be mininum standards of physical fitness for those patrolling the streets.

The notion that a Garda wouldn't be trained to effectively and safely grapple when necessary is unfair to them, unfair to us and unfair to the perp being wrassled by 15 garda.