which one

anythingoes

hey all. from a self defence point of view, which martial art should i take up when i go back to uni in september??? which would you all regard as being the most effective or can you recomend something else? Im very fit, so its not the workout aspect im looking for, I want to do something ehich is effective in a real life situation.

Looking for advice. please advise!
cheers,
ag.

blondie83

I notice you've got UCD as your home page, so presuming your going there I can recommend the Ninjutsu club - they're a really nice bunch of people, and joining it was probably one of the better choices I made in college!

http://uk.geocities.com/bcdojo/ucd.htm

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

hi Anything goes , where in the Isle of Man are you from? i lived in ballasalla for 12 years! And you cant beat judo for functional self defence training id incorporate a little boxing too though;)

dlofnep

I'd pick boxing & judo out of that list. They are both equally important. I wouldn't risk my safety on the other two.

pma-ire

Aikido

I'd say have a look at the clubs in your college on the open day and pick the one that takes your interest!!

It's all down to the instructor and club of members that may take you instead of how crazy the self defence instruction is!!

Do it for fun first, but it's handy to have a stand up striking and ground covered in some way along the line!!

RealJohn

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Do judo and boxing. If you have to pick one, I'd say judo on the grounds that both are great for defending yourself but if all you have is boxing, it'll be hard to defend yourself without looking like the bad guy and potentially getting yourself sued.

For self-defence, your first priority is not getting hurt yourself so your first concern is that whatever you train is effective. Boxing and judo both cover this. Your secondary concern is now how you'll look defending yourself. If you have to punch the other guy in the face a lot, it's hard to get the by-standards on your side for a future court date.

I still say both is your best option as the best form of self-defence usually depends on the situation so you're better off having all the bases covered.

anythingoes

do you know what boxing training is like? I mean is it intense?? and re judo, whats the progression in grades like?? whats the average length of time you'd spend from belt to belt?

RealJohn

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by intense. You said you're "very fit" so you should be fine as regards the bag work, pad work etc. As regards sparring, they probably won't let you spar until you're ready and even then, as far as I know most clubs don't spar at 100% so you're not likely to get hurt beyond the odd bump and bruise.

I have no idea with regards how often you grade in judo. I imagine it depends to some extent on how dedicated you are. Either way, if you're doing it for the sake of self-defense, belts aren't your concern. Training hard and getting good is your goal (though admittedly, in judo you can't get the higher grades without being good, as far as I know).

anythingoes

ok, so my situation is I only have time for one...which would you choose over the other and why?

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

training 2 to 3 times a week you should expect to grade every 4 to 5 months or so, takes about 3 to 4 years to grade for a bb

Baggio...

anythingoes wrote:

ok, so my situation is I only have time for one...which would you choose over the other and why?

Go for Boxing.... It will improve you speed, power, fitness and coordination. You are far more likely to use punching in a street encounter. The chances of you throwing somone are very slight indeed. Even Geoff Thompson refers to Judo as a “support system” (and he's a very talented Judo player). Even then, you'd be better off with BJJ or Grappling. Although, not that I'm a particular fan of either of them. Again - that's just my personal opinion.

Also, you can become a semi-decent boxer in a much shorter space of time. For pure self defence - it's one of the best Martial Arts out there. Only second to CQC .

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Baggio... wrote:

Go for Boxing.... It will improve you speed, power, fitness and coordination.

Judo wont?

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Baggio... wrote:

The chances of you throwing somone are very slight indeed.

Why?

Mola.mola

I've been avoiding the whole Judo as a form of self defense disscusion for a long time. Mostly because my attitudes to it change, and people ignorance on the subject makes me very angry.

The original poster is obviously an idiot of some kind as he's asking a question as if it has a simple, single answer.

Ever since I started learning judo I've used it in all self-defense encounters and MMA and submission wrestling competitions I've ever had. Judo as self defense does not nessecarily mean popping a mugger onto your shoulder and slaming him off the pavement. It can also mean, awareness, dealing with confrontation, balance, control, getting to your feet after falling, strong core, improved fitness, the list goes on.

The problem I find with judo in MMA and therefore also in self-defense is that it requires a lot of skill to perform throws under intense pressure. And for some people this will take a long time. So if you are the needy, victim like nerdy guy who needs self-defense classes you'll more than likely take years to become competent at judo, and if you're goal is short term self-defense it won't work.

I should mention I also do boxing and I have used it in all my self-defense encounters also. A lot of the things I've said for judo apply to boxing - confrontation, strength, fitness, however, it's a little different. Boxing is good cause you'll get used to getting punched in the head if you spar a lot. So in a self-defense situation you'll be less likely to be dazed by a smack to the head. But remember, if someone is mugging you they won't enter into a boxing bout with you, they might just try and grab you and maek you feel they have control over you, rather than punch you into subconciousness, and obviously, judo is more helpful here. Also, it takes a considerable amount of time to develop punches that will adequately defend yourself. if you punch a guy weakly, he may just start hitting you back repeatedly, if you hit him hard and drop him, well, then you're laughing all the way to safety.

bottom line, in my opinion, for any fight (mma/self defense) you need to be able to punch and grapple.

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Mola.mola wrote:

The original poster is obviously an idiot of some kind as he's asking a question as if it has a simple, single answer.

thats a tad harsh?:eek:

Maybe he doesnt realise fully the different ranges of fighting? or functional vs non-functional and countless other variables in sd?

The rest of what you said is spot on though

Mola.mola

Sorry anythinggoes, I just think you're speaking from a position of ignorance and are probably quite naive so I'd encourage you to try and experiment with the clubs within galway spend the first month, take 3 classes a week and just see what you think. Try and get a feel for them all. I know a million ppl that can't grapple "their way out of a paper bag" but can defend themselves no problem, I also know grapplers who can't throw a tennis ball never mind a punch and have survived MUGGERS etc. If it's possible to train with MArk Leonards club in galway you should probably do that cos they mix things up a bit.

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

thats better;)

Baggio...

judomick wrote:

Judo wont?

I never said that it wouldn't. Did I? :rolleyes: I just think Boxers train much harder than TMA'ers in general (of course there are exceptions - I'm just referring to the average practitioner).

And on the point about throwing someone in the street. How many times have you thrown a “would be attacker”? Try trowing someone while they are smashing your teeth in with their fists or drawing a knife. In my opinion Boxing is much more practical.

If you have to throw someone and want solid ground skills. go for the Combat throwing - which are far more likely to damage someone, and Ground fighting.

Ground fighting NOT to be mistaken with grappling. But I'm not going to go into the exact reasons, as I've pretty much said this all before in previous posts.

Cheers,

Bagg.

LukeyJudo22

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Boxing and judo are both olympic sports so they're both going to have similar training methods/philosophies. I can imagine world class judo players having the same level of fitness as world class boxers.

As far as self defence is concerned judo covers throws, counter throws, takedowns, strangles and armlocks while boxing covers.... boxing.

As a poster already said a mix of both would be perfect for self defence but if i was made choose I would choose judo as more often than not one punch (or even more) just isn't enough to defend yourself if attacked.

Anyway original poster just do whatever it is you love doing! Wheter its boxing, tai-chi, karaoke whatever. Try out whatever martial art you like the best and stick at it!

It's all good!

Best of luck!

-Luke

crokester

Baggio... wrote:

Try trowing someone while they are smashing your teeth in with their fists or drawing a knife.

Do you ever think before you talk? A competent Judo fighter can flip/throw someone quicker then you have time to make a fist never mind "smash your teeth in". You seem to have this idea grappling is a slow thought out affair. This is only true when its two practitioners of equal standing, when its a novice verses a trained judo or BJJ fighter its over very quickly.

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Baggio... wrote:

I never said that it wouldn't. Did I? :rolleyes: I just think Boxers train much harder than TMA'ers in general (of course there are exceptions - I'm just referring to the average practitioner).

And on the point about throwing someone in the street. How many times have you thrown a “would be attacker”? .

By saying boxing gave you etc etc, i understood from it you implied judo wouldnt give you the same qualities ? my bad i guess,

i would say for a street fight judo practitioners have better conditioning than an average boxer, i also believe judo is safer option but im not going into that

off the top of my head during altercations in work etc ive thrown about 7 people in the last year and a half, some were a little sloppy but they all ended with me in a position to either restrain them or walk away, but thats anecdotal;)

as ive said though judo with boxing would be my advice

Mola.mola

Baggio, we differ on terminology Boxing is a martial art. Judo is a martial art. Boxing is a combat sport. Judo is a combat sport. Olympic Judo athletes are in my opinion pound for pound fitter and stronger then Amateur boxing Olympians because the nature of Judo requires a more rounded overall conditioning. I've trained equally in boxing and judo for about 6 months and it see very similar cardio intensity in both sports.

Grappling? Grappling to me is just any stage when they're is body contact and you're not trying to punch or kick. So if you're in a thai clinch that's grappling. If you're in a boxers' clinch, that's grappling. If you're on your back doing BJJ that's grappling. If you pick a guy up and slam him that's grappling. If you're holding a guy by the wrists and trying to stop him from stabbing you, that's grappling. Grappling to me is just grabing someone and being in a tussle. Whether you're standing or on the ground. I've gone out on a limb to give my definition and I hope for the last few years I haven't gotten it wrong cos that would be very embarrassing. Do people have a different definition?

SorGan

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Mola.mola wrote:

Baggio, we differ on terminology Boxing is a martial art. Judo is a martial art. Boxing is a combat sport. Judo is a combat sport. Olympic Judo athletes are in my opinion pound for pound fitter and stronger then Amateur boxing Olympians because the nature of Judo requires a more rounded overall conditioning. I've trained equally in boxing and judo for about 6 months and it see very similar cardio intensity in both sports.

Grappling? Grappling to me is just any stage when they're is body contact and you're not trying to punch or kick. So if you're in a thai clinch that's grappling. If you're in a boxers' clinch, that's grappling. If you're on your back doing BJJ that's grappling. If you pick a guy up and slam him that's grappling. If you're holding a guy by the wrists and trying to stop him from stabbing you, that's grappling. Grappling to me is just grabing someone and being in a tussle. Whether you're standing or on the ground. I've gone out on a limb to give my definition and I hope for the last few years I haven't gotten it wrong cos that would be very embarrassing. Do people have a different definition?

nope ya nailed it.

Baggio...

judomick wrote:

i would say for a street fight judo practitioners have better conditioning than an average boxer

Gotta' dispute that. Have you ever trained in a good boxing club?[/QUOTE]

judomick wrote:

thrown about 7 people in the last year and a half

Hmm... I see.
I presume you are talking of Door work?
But in my experiance on the door. I never saw anyone using "judo" type throws or TMA stuff. 90% of the doorstaff were all Dan graded (including a Judo Black Belt). He quickly didcovered that boxing was a million times more practical. I was not training Combatives at that stage - my Kenpo was never used (It did help with my reflexes, etc.) We found boxing to be very functional under stress. Now I only train in Combatives (with a bit of American Kenpo - just for fun).

If you HAVE to throw poeple around - lean "Combat throwing".

Mola.mola

hehehe combat throwing.

oh actually, i hear judomick has got bit of a reputation for being steven seagull like on the doors, being all calm and casual using his grappling, hope someone doesn't come along and shoot him for it .

Stay safe kids.

dlofnep

Boxing has the most intense training I've seen out of all arts. Nearly every amateur boxer I knew in school got up every morning at 4am to run to maintain weight and keep their cardio up. Can't say the same for your average judoka - Although judo training is intense, no doubt about it.. But not on the level of boxing IMO. Then again, that could change on school to school.

Baggio...

Mola.mola wrote:

Do people have a different definition?

I do....

There is a VAST difference between Ground fighting and Grappling. But I have explained this a bazillion times, and I'm not going to cover that ground again.

From what I saw (and I've trained Judo and Boxing) A good Boxer is a hell of a lot fitter and more dangerous. And that's without any RBSD training. Look to the works of Geoff Thompson and you'll soon see how punching range “is where it's at”. That's where the action starts. Now take your boxing body mechanics, and add Combative principles and you got a good system.

Mola.mola

Baggio I think you're wrong and live in an internet bubble.

Dlofnep, those lads are badcore! Kids getting up at 4am to run? I bet they're all junkies now you can't keep that up.

dlofnep

It was pretty standard. The school I went to was very close to 2 boxing gyms.. Alot of the guys in the school went to boxing to get out of trouble. One guy I used to hang out with used to always go home early for a late night run.. I used to wonder why they ran so much. But trust me, it was very very normal.

Baggio...

Mola.mola wrote:

Baggio I think you're wrong and live in an internet bubble.

Dlofnep, those lads are badcore! Kids getting up at 4am to run? I bet they're all junkies now you can't keep that up.

Mola you seem like a bit of a simpleton. Are you actually reading my posts??
I'm not talking about Dlofnep and those other "badcore" guys, as you put it. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE PRACTICIONER not certain individuals".

Please read the stuff properly - before bleating out more inacurate crap.


And just in case you missed it, heres a quote from Dlofnep.
"Boxing has the most intense training I've seen out of all arts."

columok

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Baggio,

Mola.mola has competed in Judo, BJJ and Sub Wrestling aswell as fought MMA and also fought a boxing match in England (Oxford?) so calling him a simpleton ignores his experience.

Out of interest have you competed in boxing or another combat sport?

Colum

Mola.mola

Baggio... wrote:

I do....

There is a VAST difference between Ground fighting and Grappling. But I have explained this a bazillion times, and I'm not going to cover that ground again.

A good Boxer is a hell of a lot fitter and more dangerous.

Sorry Baggio, I don't understand the distinction you're making between Grappling and ground fighting, surely you grapple while "ground fighting". Ground fighting for me is wrestling for position, and from that position striking your opponent, applying a submission or getting to your feet. Ground fighting would include escaping your opponents holds and getting to your feet or reversing them.

Baggio does grappling mean stand up clinch to you and ground fighting obviously stuff that happens on the ground. I don't think this is a very precise use of language but as i sid before terminology is bollox.

About a boxer being more dangerous, sure, no one likes getting punched in the head really hard but a guy who can choke and strangle you and possibly break/damage one of your limbs sounds just as dangerous to me.

Black Jack

Well boxing for me , i never train Judo or Aikido, have trained some Shotokan, only thing that will get you is a visit to the hospital,

Had a mate who trained judo, he was a black belt of some degree and was in th gardai it stood to him a few times, but unless he got a hold of you he was useless, plus he was a heavy guy so if he did get a hold of you, game over !!

Otherwise i used to stay away from him and hit him at will pretty much, but suffered some maulings by him on the ground, ouch man, thats some nasty stuff judo. My dad was a good boxer in his day and i train it just with my brother, and i say Boxing , as a street self defense, cause all it ever takes to put someone down is one solid punch, and thats a end to the arguement really , you dont need fancy throws or locks , just a solid hit and its game over.

Boxing really good for hand eye co-or, speed, power, and fitness.

personally i would hate to come up against a well trained boxer in a street fight, more so than the others.

Baggio...

columok wrote:

Baggio,
Mola.mola has competed in Judo, BJJ and Sub Wrestling aswell as fought MMA and also fought a boxing match in England (Oxford?) so calling him a simpleton ignores his experience.

Out of interest have you competed in boxing or another combat sport? Colum

I'm not slagging off his physical prowess by any means. If he's into competing - fair play. It's not something I'd be into personally. But I do find his language somewhat confusing at times plus he can get pretty snarky. So I give it back.

columok wrote:

Out of interest have you competed in boxing or another combat sport? Colum

Hahah.... God no! I would have no interest in that whatsoever. But good on anyone who wants to do it.

Just count me out....

Baggio...

Black Jack wrote:

personally i would hate to come up against a well trained boxer in a street fight, more so than the others.

Same here!!

Roper

Baggio,
I find your posts a bit odd in the context of how you train. I mean no offence, but didn't you say before that you trained alone? Thats cool and fine, but I think it places you in a poor situation to comment on grappling. After all, of all the ranges you can train in, grappling really is the one you can't train alone!

Personally, I think you might benefit from reading less articles by CC and GT and SP and RT and JP and do some investigation and training with clubs and systems yourself. The people you cite are talking about their personal preferences and not what suits every person. Some are genetically advantaged to be better strikers, some grapplers. A 5 foot 6 bloke is not going to knock out a larger opponent for the most part but he can take his back and choke him out.

For the OP, Boxing is a fave of mine;)

dlofnep

I'd be scared to come up against a well trained anybody in a street fight tbh

Mola.mola

dlofnep wrote:

I'd be scared to come up against a well trained anybody in a street fight tbh

You speak the truth dlofnep.

Black Jack

Mola.mola wrote:

You speak the truth dlofnep.

so have either of you guys ever actually gotten into a street fight , on purpose or otherwise?

i mean everyone gets that feeling of anx right in the middle of their chest but when the you got to throw down what you gonna do, you guys talk the talk, but havent u ever wondered if you can walk the walk, maybe u have just an odd comment to be scared , cause its natural, no one wants to take a beating and even a pro fighter ****s himself before a fight, no matter what he says,

I had never gone looking for a fight and am a soft git to be honest but always trained and thought what would happen, well i came to pass one time and i did ok, no fancy crap but i walked away the other guy didnt,, still **** myself though, not a nice experience but showed me i could deal with a guy bigger than myself

dlofnep

I documented a scuffle (on some thread here) I got into a couple of months ago outside a pub. Guy was at least 6 or 7 inches taller than me (that's not hard consider I'm only 5'4") and had about 2 or 3 stone on me. It's safe to say without my BJJ training, I would of had my head kicked in.. But I controlled him easily and left unscathed.

Black Jack

dlofnep wrote:

I documented a scuffle (on some thread here) I got into a couple of months ago outside a pub. Guy was at least 6 or 7 inches taller than me (that's not hard consider I'm only 5'4") and had about 2 or 3 stone on me. It's safe to say without my BJJ training, I would of had my head kicked in.. But I controlled him easily and left unscathed.

nicely done, love to hear MA being used succesfully

i once saw a Kickboxing guy, try some skills outside a nightclub, he tried that tap tap tap kick thing where they put there leg up and hop along kicking out mutliple times, he got knocked the **** out, pretty quickly too , like i dont know what he was thinking, but anyway, some MA just aint practical

Mola.mola

Black Jack wrote:

so have either of you guys ever actually gotten into a street fight , on purpose or otherwise?

i'm actually one of those blokes that walks around with a scowl and usually get's in fights every couple of weeks. it's not something i'm proud off, i'm just a bit obnoxious.

i'm actually about 5 9 but i look a wee big smaller so 6 foot lads often start fights with me. most recently i decided i'd give the boxing a go cos I thought i was a mini ali and be able to float in other his punches and upper cut him. being drunk and not ali, i got slapped a few times with his digs so i closed the distance and took him down. decided kicking him would be a bit unsavoury so wandered off.

Roper

Black Jack wrote:

so have either of you guys ever actually gotten into a street fight , on purpose or otherwise?

i mean everyone gets that feeling of anx right in the middle of their chest but when the you got to throw down what you gonna do, you guys talk the talk, but havent u ever wondered if you can walk the walk, maybe u have just an odd comment to be scared , cause its natural, no one wants to take a beating and even a pro fighter ****s himself before a fight, no matter what he says,

I had never gone looking for a fight and am a soft git to be honest but always trained and thought what would happen, well i came to pass one time and i did ok, no fancy crap but i walked away the other guy didnt,, still **** myself though, not a nice experience but showed me i could deal with a guy bigger than myself

Whats the implication here? That you have to have a war story? I think I've said this before in relation to another topic but here I go again anyway.

Why do people always refer to legendary 'hard men' or 'street fighters' as their self defence experts? Guys who have been in the military and are bringing their self defence programmes into the civilian arena are highly unlikely to have the same frame of reference as you because a) they were in a large, heavily armed support group, how many times does the average Israeli (not picking, just being topical!) soldier find himself alone and unarmed I wonder? b) They are likely to be 'tougher' mentally and physically than you. This makes them poor examples of how the average citizen can defend themselves.
Second, legendary 'I've been in 1000 street fights and I can teach you my secrets' type guys are also bad examples of the average citizen. a) same as with the military guy, this guy is bound to be 'tough'. b) Everyone agrees the best form of self defense is the sprint, this sort of guy obviously doesn't teach that!

So my ideal self defence expert will be the guy who doesn't even know it yet: Lives in a bad area and doesn't get in fights, drinks in pubs unlikely to have trouble in them, takes the long way home to avoid trouble spots, and keeps himself reasonably fit so he can do a legger when needed. But I don't think anyone is going to cite Joe Bloggs in their next post...

Black Jack

1000 street fight huh, you must be hardcore !! dude i only ever been in a few and thankfully so, i agree , the best thing is a hasty exit, i no like to fight at all, but to be honest the guy i learn from thought the army boys hand to hand, and was a normal guy with a family, so pretty much every day type of guy,

we learn what we can from who we can , but i rather learn from someone who has practical experience rather than the head of a club who is used to comps instead of the street,

Black Swan

Aikido

If I had to choose only one from your list, then Karate (although it's not TKD, which is my sport). Everyone is different. You need to shop around and find your fit before you commit.

Roper

Black Jack wrote:

we learn what we can from who we can , but i rather learn from someone who has practical experience rather than the head of a club who is used to comps instead of the street,

Define practical.

Practical experience in street fights? What worked for him/her against one drunk guy, 2 sober guys etc.

or

Practical experience avoiding fights. How he/she avoided a fight with a drunk guy, 2 sober guys etc.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but I'm genuinely curious as to why people who get in fights are venerated as good self defence teachers when we can all agree that the best form of defence is a non-confrontational approach or the age old take to your heels policy.

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Baggio... wrote:

Hmm... I see.
I presume you are talking of Door work?
. He quickly didcovered that boxing was a million times more practical.

If you HAVE to throw poeple around - lean "Combat throwing".

Yes doorwork and 2 drunken altercations, good doorman???? lets punch people rather than restrain them! from this statement i am now of the opinion you dont have a clue what your talking about, sorry just the way it appears!?!

again judo works the same wherever you do it, but as i said maybe im misunderstanding you, so maybe a get together discuss spar?

judomick

Boxing ( i know its not a martial art)

Mola.mola wrote:

hehehe combat throwing.

oh actually, i hear judomick has got bit of a reputation for being steven seagull like on the doors, being all calm and casual using his grappling, hope someone doesn't come along and shoot him for it .

.

Use humour first that fails act quick with force , not lots just enough to restrain subdue, nothing crazy quiet easy, but having a proven training systems gives huge confidence for dealing with situations

they have already tried the wind sprints worked well! and the other guy got combat thrown

Mola.mola

everytime i tried to combat throw someone i realise i'm not wearing my suit of armour or carriny my spear so i just have to normal throw them, very annoying.

Baggio...

judomick wrote:

Yes doorwork and 2 drunken altercations, good doorman???? lets punch people rather than restrain them! from this statement i am now of the opinion you dont have a clue what your talking about, sorry just the way it appears!?!

Again people reading sh*t into my posts that's not there.....

I never said we just “punched people” on the door for no reason. We were not thugs.... So I find your remarks some what offensive. When we got drunken eejits in the club we just surrounded them and chucked them out, if we wanted to restrain them, we would just pile on 'em. We did not hurt people for no reason.

When we were attacked on numerous occasions (by squadies from Aldershot, I might add). We started punching and kicking. Either that or end up in the hospital. So when you are out numbered by trained soldiers who want to kick the crap out of you. You 'aint got time to do any fancy Judo throws – it will never happen.

Colm_OReilly

anthinggoes,

If you're in UCD, go to UCDMMA (formerly UCD BJJ).