2 Second Penalty for Alonso

steviec

For this act of stupidity, he'll have 2 seconds added on to his qualifying times in every session tomorrow.

It's a fair penalty, Montoya got put to the back of the grid for similar at Monaco last year.

It will be interesting to see where this puts him - my guess is somewhere around 12th-16th

There's rain forecast this weekend, it's probably Fernando's best hope at the moment!

Kersh

He deserved it, should have got the same punishment JPM got, but he didnt, and its typical FIA.
Alonso is one of the most petulant, whiney drivers in the modern era. On track that is, whining on the radio, and now swerving and braketesting competitors.

muckwarrior

WTF was he thinking? Like it was Friday practice FFS! It's not like Doorknobs was holding him up when fighthing for a Grand Prix or anythin.

thegoth

Thats one of the differences between Schmui and most other drivers. He does not get emotional on track. He always thinks logically, even Monaco this year was a calculated risk. Had he graced the barrier, he would have gotten away with it.

When he ran Hill and Villenve of track, that was the only chance he had to win the world championship both years.

Alonso's move was just as dangeroues as unsporting as anything Schmui has done, but pointless as it would have achieved nothing anyway.

chern0byl

thegoth wrote:

Alonso's move was just as dangeroues as unsporting as anything Schmui has done

As a schumi fan, i can say you are talking nonsense.

Rattlehead_ie

my guess is somewhere around 12th-16th

Dont think so,this is basically the back of the Grid.He will be given a 2second penalty for EACH of the qualiftying times he sets.
So he will prob get into all 4 rounds of qualifying which then the 2 seconds are added 2 x 4 = 8 seconds and not even MidLand are that far behind
Now thats how i read it? I could be and probably am wrong

muckwarrior

Rattlehead_ie wrote:

Dont think so,this is basically the back of the Grid.He will be given a 2second penalty for EACH of the qualiftying times he sets.
So he will prob get into all 4 rounds of qualifying which then the 2 seconds are added 2 x 4 = 8 seconds and not even MidLand are that far behind
Now thats how i read it? I could be and probably am wrong

I think you're wrong. I reckon he'll just have 2 seconds added to his time directly after each session. This means he may not even get past the first knockout, and certainly not the second.

OSiriS

Schumacher may face a similar penalty after overtaking under a red flag in practice, most likely 1 second if the stewards are consistent.

muckwarrior

Looks like the same for schu! Now that will be interesting

steviec

Ok that's a joke.

Can anybody justify Schu getting the same penalty for not spotting a flag as Alonso did for blatantly and purposefully weaving across and brake testing Doornbos AND not spotting a flag?

muckwarrior

steviec wrote:

Ok that's a joke.

Can anybody justify Schu getting the same penalty for not spotting a flag as Alonso did for blatantly and purposefully weaving across and brake testing Doornbos AND not spotting a flag?

Coz he overtook 2 cars.

OSiriS

Maybe you should find out what happened before commenting. Alonso got 1 second for his dangerous driving and 1 second for overtaking under a yellow flag, Schumacher got 2 seconds for overtaking twice under a red flag.

steviec

And that's worth the same penalty as a premeditated attempt to intimidate and endanger Doornbos?

muckwarrior

steviec wrote:

And that's worth the same penalty as a premeditated attempt to intimidate and endanger Doornbos?

Obviously.

OSiriS

Yes it is, you obviously underestimate the dangers of overtaking under a yellow flag. If there was a car broken down in the middle of the track and Schumacher hit it while overtaking the damage could be much worse that Doornbos running into the back of Alonso. The stewards obviously and justifiably take the flag conditions very seriously.

steviec

OSiriS wrote:

Yes it is, you obviously underestimate the dangers of overtaking under a yellow flag. If there was a car broken down in the middle of the track and Schumacher hit it while overtaking the damage could be much worse that Doornbos running into the back of Alonso. The stewards obviously and justifiably take the flag conditions very seriously.

Apart from the fact it wasn't a yellow it was a red, which signifies the end of the session, and everyone would have been cruising at that stage.

Interesting interview with Schumacher there, he's blaming Alonso, Alonso was the driver he overtook, very conveniently for the FIA there's no footage of it happening publicly available despite the fact it was filmed.

I still don't see how this can be compared to a clear attempt to intimidate another driver that could have resulted in a serious accident, what Alonso did was far worse. Oh, AND Alonso ignored yellow flags aswell.

OSiriS

Both cases are dangerous driving, there is no conspiracy theory. A red flag may be the end of a session, but it is a session ended due to an incident more serious than a yellow flag incident which makes it even worse to overtake under. Both Alonso's and Schumacher's penalties are on principle. The FIA stewards are laying the precident that dangerous driving in practice will be punished by time penalties in qualifying.

Who cares if Alonso slowed when Schumacher passed him. He is required to slow anyway, and psychological tactics like this have been used by drivers including Schumacher for years. He made the choice to overtake Alonso just like he chose to overtake the other 2 drivers I hear it is now. You can;t blame Alonso on those 2 as well.

steviec

Well, conveniently enough for Alonso and the FIA, the footage that Schumacher's talking about still hasn't surfaced.

However, this picture implies Alonso was doing his favourite holding up trick(like this) and backing Kubika into Schumacher, who just got tired of it and went around him. Considering how close all three cars are together I seriously doubt they were doing any sort of speed you could consider 'dangerous'... I know I'm basing that from a photo and you can't tell for sure, but it's all very very convenient.

OSiriS

Is it impossible for you to admit that Schumacher can make a mistake? In the absense of proof to the contrary you instantly jump to the conclusion that somehow Alonso forces Schumacher to illegally overtake 2 drivers.

ITVF1 wrote:

Overtaking is strictly prohibited under red-flag conditions, which call for drivers to immediately cut their speed and proceed slowly back to the pit lane.

Now granted I would have to see the video to be able to form an properly informed opinion, based on the lack of information we have now Alonso was obeying the rules, even if he exagerated the speed reductions to get on Schumachers nerves. given the lack of information at the moment we only know that Schumacher broke the rules, and the Stewards decided that the circumstances warrented a stiff penalty.

steviec

What's your definition of slowly? Is overtaking a 5mph Alonso at 10mph unacceptable?

It's blatantly obvious the Stewards came to their decision to even things up, it happens time and again. I still don't see how any logical thinking person can consider that worthy of the same punishment as Alonso's disgraceful actions against Doornbos.

OSiriS

It says that overtaking is strictly forbidden, which would mean that even if alonso is going 1mph driving back to the pits under the strict interpretation of the rules he can't be overtaken. I don't see you protesting Alonsos 1 second penalty for overtaking under a yellow flag. As I have said, overtaking under red/yellow flags is prohibitted for very good reason. The flags rules are there to give the stewards a guage of when illegal overtaking has taken place. It is not up to the drivers to decide if it is safe to overtake, it is up to the drivers to obey the rules. Schumacher broke the rules, there is no denying it, so he was given the same punishment Alonso got for a similar infraction, 1 second for each car overtaken under a flag. That is my opinion based on logic, your opinion seems more based on the fact that you don't want Schumacher down the grid. I will not deny that Alonso was acting carelessly and dangerously in his actions against Doornbos, and he deserved to be unished for such stupidity. As I said before, you should not underestimate just how serious the red/yellow flag conditions are and Schumacher and alonso's penalties are a reflection of how seriously the stewards take it.

steviec

I don't have a problem with a one second penalty. Schumacher got a two second penalty however. And it wasn't two seperate incidents, he overtook the two of them on the same corner - all the more evidence Alonso was backing Kubica up and playing childish games.

Also, I saw the footage of Alonso overtaking under the yellows. Something I haven't seen of the Schumacher incident, which hasn't been made available despite the fact it exists. Isn't this, combined with Schumacher blaming Alonso in an interview, a little fishy to you?

So Alonso overtakes under yellows(at speed, as evidenced by the video) AND cuts up and brake tests Doornbos = 2 second penalty

Schumacher overtakes under red(probably not at speed, based on lots of circumstantial evidence but no hard facts since the FIA are burying the evidence), and does nothing else wrong = same penalty

And previously, when Montoya brake tested DC in the same way as Alonso did and didn't do anything under yellows - he got sent to the back of the grid.

Where's the consistency there?

steviec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzFD_aEVeAY

And that confirms my suspicions about Alonso.

Go on, tell me Schumacher was driving dangerously there as he crawled around the outside of the practically stopped Alonso, who had clearly and deliberately slowed down there(and don't tell me he slowed down because he saw the reds, this was turn thirteen, they were at turn three when the reds started waving and had been cruising since, I'd be interested to know where Button's blow up was and if they were already past the incident)

Edit: I'm told it was turn 4 that Button went out. So he knew he was past the incident, he knew the track was clear, and he was travelling at low speed, just that Alonso was travelling ridiculously slow, in a clear attempt to get him to pass(Alonso was on the radio to make an appeal about it immediately)

Now Michael should have known better than to fall for it and he did break the rules. But anyone who thinks he deserves the same penalty for that as Alonso did for his two combined actually-dangerous infractions yesterday doesn't have their head screwed on. A one second penalty might have been reasonable.

Edwardius

Don't think there's much point in belly aching about it now, it should make for an interesting race tomorrow. I think Alonso (in his current state of mind, professional or not he's still human) may be a little heavy on the old go-pedal and racing with guys he's accustomed to lapping may also make things interesting. I can easily see either him or schumacher sticking it in the hedge in an attempt to make up some places, especially around the Hungaroring.

steviec

There's meant to be a fair chance of rain, in that case we may get a good race and some justice tomorrow. Whatever happens it should be an uncharacteristically fascinating Hungarian GP.

OSiriS

lol. I never said that he was driving dangerously, I said he broke a rule that was intended to prevent dangerous situations, so in principle he was driving dangerously irregardless of the circumstances. Now how about you tell me how Kubica managed to drive slowly behind Alonso, but Schumacher deemed it was ok to break the red flag and overtake both? I didn;t tell you Alonso slowed down that much because of red flags, if you read my posts you will see I said Alonso probably slowed down to play with Schumacher.

2 Points, a red flag is more serious than a yellow flag. Schumacher overtook 2 cars under a red flag. He flaunted the rules because he couldn't have a little patience and ignore Alonso's taunting. The stewards were obliged to penalise him as he was flounting the rules. It doesn't matter that Alonso was playing childish games, he wasn't breaking the rules and Schumacher himself has played games with rival drivers on the track plenty of times in the past especially against Hill.

muckwarrior

OSiriS wrote:

and Schumacher himself has played games with rival drivers on the track plenty of times in the past especially against Hill.

Yeah, like that old game of 'lets crash my car into his and see what happens'

OSiriS

steviec wrote:

And previously, when Montoya brake tested DC in the same way as Alonso did and didn't do anything under yellows - he got sent to the back of the grid.

Where's the consistency there?

I don't remember this incident. Did it take place during qualifying? If so the stewads would have insufficient time to come to a decision in order to impose time penalties in qualifying so sent him to the back of the grid as they did with Schumacher for his Monaco antics.

steviec

Yes and Schumacher got penalised for those mind games with Hill. Unlike Alonso.

So, you've already passed Button, you know the track is clear, but the safe course of action is to sit behind the childish idiot in front who's constantly brake testing you rather than just safely glide by at low speed?

Michael broke the rule. Yes. There should be a penalty. Yes. But it's a matter of what penalty. Not to mention that the Marshalls should employ some common sense and make sure Alonso doesn't see flags as an opportunity to brake test cars behind him and force them to break the rules in future.

How is one very safe infraction from Schumacher, which he performed to get away from Alonso's stupid games, worthy of the same penalty as multiple extremely dangerous and avoidable infractions from Alonso?

OSiriS

The track was still under a red flag. If you decide to ignore the flag conditions when inforcing the rules where do you draw the line? It's safe to overtake after 100 metres? 50? 5? The rules are in place so they don't need to make such a determination. Like I said, the stewards were setting precident for the penalty to be handed down for such an infraction when Alonso broke the rule the day before. Schumacher would have been well aware of the penalty. In neither overtaking case was there danger of a collision, they were handed down in principle. And I don't remember Schumacher ever getting penalised for playing mindgames on the track with Hill. You need to try to get over the fact that there was no danger and understand that the stewards have started taking a hard line on breaking rules this season which has been evident in most of the races so far. I don't care if it is Schumacher or any of the drivers I like, if they break the rules I want them punished for it. We will have much better racing when drivers are willing to follow the rules in their entirety rather than deciding for themselves what rules they can ignore.

steviec

So there's no room for common sense in stewarding?

The rules relating to flags are there for one reason and one reason alone: safety

So, I have some questions.

Is driving along looking in your mirrors and slamming on the brakes to annoy the drivers behind you safe?

Is sitting behind said idiot constantly having to swerve and slam on your own brakes to avoid him safe?

Is pulling to one side, gliding past at a low speed and continuing on your way at a safe pace in clean air back to the pits safe?


All this did was set a precedent that Fernando Alonso now knows he's above the law, he can brake test people and try and force them into the wall under yellow flag and safety car conditions in the race now that he knows he can get away with it.

OSiriS

steviec wrote:

All this did was set a precedent that Fernando Alonso now knows he's above the law, he can brake test people and try and force them into the wall under yellow flag and safety car conditions in the race now that he knows he can get away with it.

I'm sorry we must be watching different races, in the Grand Prix I was watching Alonso got penalised for it. You are argueing consistently yet you believe Alonso should be punished for overtaking under a yellow flag yet Schumacher shouldn't. If the rules were to state that a driver couldn't overtake until they are past the incident I would have no problems with what Schumacher did, but since they don't and the stewards chose to adhere to the letter of the law ...

steviec

OSiriS wrote:

I'm sorry we must be watching different races, in the Grand Prix I was watching Alonso got penalised for it. You are argueing consistently yet you believe Alonso should be punished for overtaking under a yellow flag yet Schumacher shouldn't. If the rules were to state that a driver couldn't overtake until they are past the incident I would have no problems with what Schumacher did, but since they don't and the stewards chose to adhere to the letter of the law ...

Alonso was penalised ONE second for overtaking under yellows at HIGH speed where an incident has occurred.

Schumacher was penalised for TWO seconds for overtaking under red at LOW speed after they had passed the incident and were on a clear track.

Schumacher also certainly wouldn't have performed the move if himself and Kubica weren't being subjected to Alonso's games. Which is the point I was getting at - Alonso drove dangerously under reds, slamming on the brakes and focussing on trying to force the cars behind him into making mistakes, and he got off scott free.

chern0byl

Schumi broke the rules and definitely deserved punishment but 2 seconds per session was too harsh relative to Fernandos punishment which was too light.

Stewards didnt act to level things out imo but boxed themselves into a corner. Fernando should have been dropped to the back of the grid and then Schumi's 2 seconds per session would be fair.

Comparing Schumi's rule breaking to Fernandos is apples and oranges. Carving someone up at speed and then break testing them compared to passing 2 cars under red, nowhere near the danger zone and as you enter the pits.

steviec

chern0byl wrote:

Schumi broke the rules and definitely deserved punishment but 2 seconds per session was too harsh relative to Fernandos punishment which was too light.

Stewards didnt act to level things out imo but boxed themselves into a corner. Fernando should have been dropped to the back of the grid and then Schumi's 2 seconds per session would be fair.

Comparing Schumi's rule breaking to Fernandos is apples and oranges. Carving someone up at speed and then break testing them compared to passing 2 cars under red, nowhere near the danger zone and as you enter the pits.

Exactly! I knew someone had to agree. I simply don't know how anyone could come to the logical conclusion that equal penalties was a fair judgement when you compare what Alonso did to what Schumacher did.

OSiriS

You clearly don't understand the meaning of a judgement on principle then.

chern0byl

OSiriS wrote:

You clearly don't understand the meaning of a judgement on principle then.

Nothing in F1 is ruled on in principle as there is no consistency in any FIA ruling. Id love to see the FIA statement on both.

OSiriS

There was little danger of collision in either illegal overtaking move so the stewards are left with the fact that the rules were breached and punishments need to be given. This year a head steward was appointed to attend all the races to oversee all rule infractions so they can make an attempt at bringing consistency to these punishments. If you leave it to the stewards to make judement cals on how far over the line someone crossed either you need to measure how more serious one rule infraction is over another, or you treat each type of rule breaking to be of the same severity. I do see where you are getting at, but the fact is that the stewards are trying to bring consistency to their rulings so they had to apply the same penalty. Now, what if either overtaking move had put drivers at risk? Would the danger posed not be as bad as the danger Alonso put Doornbos in when he brake tested him? That is why I say that in principle Schumacher deserved the same punishment as Alonso.

chern0byl

OSiriS wrote:

consistency

Im not disputing Schumi's 2 second penalty at all. I am disputing Fernandos 2 seconds. It cant be argued. Fernando got off light.

OSiriS

And yet I just argued that fact above.

trendkill

look, to be honest, both drivers are lucky to be racing, almost ten years ago, in 97 if i can remember properly, schumacher was dis qualified or else banned from a race for overtaking Jacques Villeneuve on a formation lap, .... that happens almost every time now. However later that year villeneuve was banned form taking part in the Suzuka race.

Look, Motor racing is motor racing, thats why having the same Steward at each race is goood, its standardising the rules,

Remenber Montreal 2001, Villeneuve and Montoya going handbags with each other after an incident on track. Villenuve believed Montoya brake tested him, at the conference after, Villeneuve turned to Monty and said, try that again and I'll put you into the wall!! and Monty replied, well it wouldn't be the first time, you've alread killed someone this year. Villenuve Lunged at him.Monty was talking about the Melbourne incident when the wheel tether from villeneuves car broke and slipped through the gap in the fence and Fatally hit the A race marshall named Graham Beveridge. now, What happened there in relation to punishment. Look Brake testing has been a part of Motorsport since the dawn of racing. As long as continuity is achieved, it will get rid of it.

the thing to talk about is the mass dampers. FIA outlawed them, German Stewards approved them, FIA appeal immediately, two days later, the FIA announce that they can be used until the appeal is heard and that any teams using them will not get penalised after the hearing... ITV-F1 ANNOUNCE Renault are using them this weekend on their web-site but today Pat Symonds says they are not using them. Not whats going on there, and why do so many people on this site hate Alonso.

chern0byl

trendkill, i think you need to get some of your facts sorted out Or else i was watching the 97 season through the twilight zone.

OSiriS wrote:

And yet I just argued that fact above.

I dont think we are gonna agree lad, but im not too bothered

trendkill

sure........ schumacher fan then, nuf said. and from the tops of people's minds they can be wrong about the little things. It was actually 94.
"After Senna's death, Damon Hill inherited the responsibility of fighting for the championship. Hill struggled to keep pace with the Benetton in his Williams-Renault, but due to several mid-season controversial disqualifications and bans for Schumacher, he began to close the gap in the standings. In the British Grand Prix, Schumacher was penalized for overtaking on the formation lap [2]. He then ignored the penalty and the subsequent black flag during the race, for which he was disqualified and later given a two-race ban. Things took a turn for the worse at Spa, where Schumacher was disqualified after winning the race, after his car was found to have illegal wear on its skidblock.[3]
Leading by a single point going into the final race in Australia, Schumacher clinched the title after colliding with Hill in a highly controversial incident, taking both drivers out "

that can be found right here Cherrynoble
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher

stevenmu

OSiriS wrote:

I don't remember this incident. Did it take place during qualifying? If so the stewads would have insufficient time to come to a decision in order to impose time penalties in qualifying so sent him to the back of the grid as they did with Schumacher for his Monaco antics.

It was in Monaco last year. IIRC It was during qualifying, Montoya was either on his out lap or in lap.

Either way, presumably the reason the punishment is different this time around (or at least a part of the reason) is the different qualifying format this year.

Also, Alonso's 'brake test' this time around is much less severe than Montoya's one was last year, in fact it looked like it was more of a case of going around a corner way too slowly. Montoya really stood on the brakes when he did it, on a straight just after a bend meaning the car behind came around the bend and found an almost stationary Montoya right in his path. (not trying to excuse what Alonso did)

chern0byl

stevenmu wrote:

'brake test'

Why are you [""]? Dont try to lesson what the guy did. He break tested the poor lad. Im sure Doornboss is hidden away somewhere still crying from the fright of it all.

The race is being built up for something special. I have to say i am hopeful. Massa should control the pack pretty well id say. He lost his chance to win the gp in qualifying and therefore any chance for Ferrari to let him run his most optimised strategy.

chern0byl

Heres a high quality version of the incident: http://rapidshare.de/files/28299448/RTL_incident_msc_vs_alo.mpg.html

OSiriS

In the end it seems all the discussion of the severity of punishment the drivers deserved was moot. They could have sent both to the back of the grid and the it would have made little difference. It's shaping up to the the most entertaining race in a long time, nice to see the race dirrector showing overtaking from the entire grid rather than focussing on the front runners. Pity the bridgestones are so bad, would have been nice to see the Ferraris fighting up front.

Edwardius

Damn. Turn off all british channels for the next week. I don't begrudge aul Jenson a bit of luck but until James Allen is hanging from a tree in my back garden, I'll have trouble feeling happy for Button.

steviec

Yea it all worked out in the end, Karma came and bit Alonso and he was robbed of a podium after a decent drive. Michael did his typical Rainmaster job, lapping his team-mate along with every other bridgestone runner, but matching the Michelins was never going to be possible. He was too aggressive at the end, noone but himself to blame for losing those points.

Fantastic race. Can't believe I'm saying that about a Jenson Button win. Or about a race at the Hungaroring! But it was very entertaining stuff and the championship is still wide open at the end of the day.

Kersh

Yes, it was a great race, all over the shop really,
Michael drove like a tosser for 2/3 of the GP!!

Yes, he got back up to 2nd, way-hey, and he drove well at that stage to get there, but then he drove like a spa protecting his position from Pedro, straightlined a chicane TWICE, then finally broke a toe link going over the SAME chicane defending from Heidfeld. I dont think even mentally he was at the races today.
Pity he didnt win though, so we could all watch Alonso buckle under the strain.
Fair play to Jenson though, he had Alonso bet anyway. As for KImi, well, hes my favourite, so in no way was he responsible for that accident, no way, not MY boy, , Liuzzi reversed right down the straight :eek: , and took Kimi out...:D

chern0byl

Kersh wrote:

he had Alonso bet anyway

Not at all. Yeah he was a lot faster but Button still had to pit for dry weather tyres, an extra stop over Alonso and that would have negated the time he pulled in.

GP was a heart stopper. Like i just said to my dad: i almost wish every gp was like that, but could my heat take it?