Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

LegacyUser

Hey guys

Iv been listening to reps. on the radio from different world organisations calling for Isreal to show restraint in thier military actions into Gaza.

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

I think Isreal is dead right in thier choice of dealing with the kidnapping of one of thier soldiers.With fanatical groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad there is no reasoning with them.....there for Isreal needs to show that when you mess with them the consequences are going to be devestating. Its this show of force and a strong will by Isreal thats needed.I have alot of respect for Isreal...they know thier own mind and is a country that will not under any circumstances be intimidated or terrorised into accecpting suituations that will endanger its people and its standard of living.

Dirk Gently

The only thing Israel is going to achieve is to have 100's of more suicide bombers volunteer their services for the Palestinian cause.

I very much doubt the latest offensive is because of one Israeli soldier. I reckon the soldiers kidnapping was the excuse the Israelis needed to launch the attacks which I'm sure where planned long before the kidnapping and were always going to be executed once they had enough provocation to justify an attack.

After the Hamass gov were elected a lot of funding got cut off and wages are not been paid to most public workers. Moral was low and the conditions were right for a collapse of the hamass gov but now, after Israel stupidly attacked the Palestinian people, the Palestinian movement is united. All the rival Palestinian groups and the Palestinian people themselves are no longer fighting among themselves, but are instead hardened and focused in their hatred for what can only be described as state terrorism from Israel.

Well done Israel, you just made loads of new enemies and killed any chance of a moderate Palestinian group with which to negotiate. Not exactly a sound tactic when trying to defend Israel from attacks. Straight out of the George Bush school of stupidity.

yomchi

kaiser1 wrote:

Hey guys

Iv been listening to reps. on the radio from different world organisations calling for Isreal to show restraint in thier military actions into Gaza.

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

I think Isreal is dead right in thier choice of dealing with the kidnapping of one of thier soldiers.With fanatical groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad there is no reasoning with them.....there for Isreal needs to show that when you mess with them the consequences are going to be devestating. Its this show of force and a strong will by Isreal thats needed.I have alot of respect for Isreal...they know thier own mind and is a country that will not under any circumstances be intimidated or terrorised into accecpting suituations that will endanger its people and its standard of living.

Your ignorance astounds me. Are you aware of how Israel came into being? Are you aware that they are occupying lands not owned by them?
Are you aware that only last week before Hamas took their soldier, that they launched missiles onto a public beach killing men women and children..the attack was unprovoked.
A lot of respect for Israel? Come back down to earth

yomchi

clown bag wrote:

The only thing Israel is going to achieve is to have 100's of more suicide bombers volunteer their services for the Palestinian cause.

I very much doubt the latest offensive is because of one Israeli soldier. I reckon the soldiers kidnapping was the excuse the Israelis needed to launch the attacks which I'm sure where planned long before the kidnapping and were always going to be executed once they had enough provocation to justify an attack.

After the Hamass gov were elected a lot of funding got cut off and wages are not been paid to most public workers. Moral was low and the conditions were right for a collapse of the hamass gov but now, after Israel stupidly attacked the Palestinian people, the Palestinian movement is united. All the rival Palestinian groups and the Palestinian people themselves are no longer fighting among themselves, but are instead hardened and focused in their hatred for what can only be described as state terrorism from Israel.

Well done Israel, you just made loads of new enemies and killed any chance of a moderate Palestinian group with which to negotiate. Not exactly a sound tactic when trying to defend Israel from attacks. Straight out of the George Bush school of stupidity.

You explained it better than I

BlackWizard

They are not in land that they do not own.

They forced their way onto it and took it over. This has been going on for 1000's
of years, but in this day and age it something that modern society has problems
comprehending.

But Israel have really put their foot in it this time. Its really hard to take anyones
side on the issues in that region. Religion really complicates things.

Sometimes there are more than just the intentions of just one government at hand
also.

Ever since

silverharp

Well lets just say Im glad the Brits never felt it necessary to bomb Dublin from the air during the 70's and 80's , any state that thinks civilian casulties are an acceptable part of their policies doesnt get my support or sympathy.

LegacyUser

I can see where your arguments are coming from...and once upon a time my sympathies leaned more towards the plight of the Palestinians.
But then I saw the videos of the Americans Jack Hensley,Nick Berg and Briton Ken Bigley.These men died a horiffic death all in the name of "Islam".

These people along with Hamas , Islamic Jihad and Al-Queda all have just one goal and that is to destroy OUR ideals and values and to impose upon us the ideals and virtues of a religion that is stuck in a place in time that the rest of the modern world left behind hundreds of years ago.I dont intend to let this thread go off on a tangent but Id just like to justify my last claim.

Where as at one time in history the Christian Church used to burn people at the stake for being "Witches" or torture them to confess crimes against God(i.e during Turqemada s time as head of the Spanish Inquesition),we as a modern,civilised group of nations left that sort of barbarity behind along time ago.....i.e the church developed and changed with time,whereas the Islamic faith hasnt. I remember reading an article in a paper a couple of years ago about a young man on trial in Iran. He was accused of throwing a jar of acid at his friend which hit the victim in the face...the result was the young man lost sight in one of his eyes. The trial (if you could call it that) Judge ordered that according to Shria Law the victim was entitled to an "eye for an eye"....there for the accused was to be surgically blinded!!!
And we all know what happens in Saudi Arabia(beheadings), female mutilation in Nigeria...and we have all seen what those pleasent group of people called the Taliban used to get up to!!

This IMHO is absolute savagery.We look to the Legislature and Judiciary of nations to develop fair,civilised and protective laws.....none of which are evident in countries goverened by extremist islamists.

Isreal is a country that has had to fight for its very existence from the word go....The Jewish people as a race have been the target for destruction at least 5 times in the last 75 years,so no one could blaim them for being a lil bit heavy handed at times.

Now as far as the shelling of the beach I totally agree that was wrong but so was the countless number of times suicide bombers walked into shopping centres,nightclubs,bars and killed countless numbers of people.Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

The only thing that keeps countries like Syria and Iran in check is Isreal...her Nuclear deterent is what has kept the balance of power firmly in her hands and as far as Amed Denejhad Im sure the offices of Mossad and Shin Bet are a flurry of activity as about how to rid the world of this idiot.

Jordan as a country accepted the existence of Isreal as a nation and has only benifited from it. Its a stable peace loving country and probably one of the only countries in the middle east I would have any intrest in visiting.

Im sorry this spirialed off but its just something I feel stronly about.

fillmore jive

I dont think there will ever be peace in that region. I know it sounds very cynical, but look at the North. Look how many years it took them to get peace up there, and now they can't even decide on power sharing?

The hatred between the Jews and the Arabs is much more than the hatred that exists between the Catholics and the Prodestants. They will keep at it untill it turns into a full-scale war, and the UN or something has to be called in.

DOLEMAN

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Um... you do know the Israelis kill waaaay more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis? You do know the Palestinians don't have the equipment or army the Israelis have, are absolutely desperate desperate people, hence the suicide bombs? You think people happily decide to be suicide bombers? You have got to be absolutely desperate to do something like that. The Palestinians are people like you and me who live in terrible fear.

Israel is a disgrace.

uberpixie

Israel have commited attrocities in retaliation to Palestinian terrorist attacks.

They have killed over 20,000 defenseless civialians during 1982 in response to palestinian terrorist attacks.

They have made thousands of Palestian civilian homeless through land grabs.

They are not a country to be respected. Any country that has soldiers that get away with rolling over old men in wheel chairs in tanks and shooting Red Cross volunteers is not to be respected.

Would anyone say Enlgand was a great country for shooting innocent, unarmed Catholics in the North on Bloody Sunday, because a minority of the Catholic population took part in terrorics attacks?

Every time a minority of the Palestinian population attack Israel: Israel bomb defenseless civilains in mass numbers.

Very respectable and to be respected. :mad:

There are no good guys or bad guys in this conflict: both sides have commited horrible acts of terrorism.

But you would think a people who were treated so badly during world war II wouldn't turn round a treat another people the same way.

Dub13

Moved from Military.

lostexpectation

no collective punishment is not right

aidan24326

kaiser1 wrote:

Isreal is a country that has had to fight for its very existence from the word go....The Jewish people as a race have been the target for destruction at least 5 times in the last 75 years,so no one could blaim them for being a lil bit heavy handed at times.

Now as far as the shelling of the beach I totally agree that was wrong but so was the countless number of times suicide bombers walked into shopping centres,nightclubs,bars and killed countless numbers of people.Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

The only thing that keeps countries like Syria and Iran in check is Isreal...her Nuclear deterent is what has kept the balance of power firmly in her hands and as far as Amed Denejhad Im sure the offices of Mossad and Shin Bet are a flurry of activity as about how to rid the world of this idiot.

I think you are dead wrong about Israel. They are in fact the aggressor in that region and their nuclear arsenal does not, as you put it, 'keep Syria and Iran in check', but only gives Israel the power to do as they please and play the bully, with Uncle Sam watching their backs due to the very strong Jewish influence in Washington.

And funny you should mention Mossad. Do you know anything of the history of their activities over the years? Quite possibly one of the most dangerous organisations out there. They are known to have committed some pretty heinous acts which they then used to frame some convenient 'patsy' all in the name of furthering their own (i.e Israel's) agenda. Their motto is 'by deception thou shalt do war' which is telling in itself. They are known to have created fake al-qaeda cells and are suspected of staging terror attacks. Only the CIA could rival them in the 'seriously dodgy' stakes. The sick irony is that these shadowy intelligence and counter-terrorism groups are very often far worse than the 'terrorists' they claim to be protecting us from.

As for Ahmedinejad (correct spelling) he is not an idiot at all. He knows the threat that Israel present in the Middle East region. The current premise for attacking Iran, that they are attempting to create nuclear weapons, is totally unfounded just as it was with Iraq. If I was an Iranian I'd be pretty worried right now, with both the Yanks and the Israelis (moreso) itching to get at them.

The real reasons for this could be a little more complicated than meets the eye. We know why Israel would want to attack them. But why the US, leaving aside the Jewish lobbying influence in US politics and in particular with regard to Middle Eastern policy. Ahmedinejad has announced that pretty soon Iran will begin to trade oil in euros rather than US dollars as has been the case up to now. With Iran being the world's second biggest oil producer this has some potentially serious repercussions for the Americans, for economic reasons I won't go into here. And the US economy is already in trouble with debt spiralling out of control. That, plus the Americans aim to control the Middle Eastern region for their own gain, might go some way to explaining why they've suddenly become so interested in Iran. Note how American foreign policy seems incredibly fickle and changeable, depending on what suits America's own economic and corporate interests at the time.

I do agree that there is a sinister and inherently distasteful and even dangerous side to Islamic fundementalism. It's not just in Islam of course, we see plenty of Christian fundamentalist nutjobs also, but the problem seems especially prevalent in some of the more hardline Islamic states. Very clear proof of the dangers of mass religion when beliefs are taken to an extreme of black and white and not much in the middle. It's pure brainwashing and I don't think it's in any way unfair to call it that. Yes Israel are quite entitled to defend themselves. Of course. And to be fair they are in a precarious geographical position. But it's how they go about it that turns people against them. Their attitude seems to always be you kill one of ours we'll kill 1,000 of yours, you bomb a house we'll take out a hole town etc. It's never even just an eye for an eye with Israel, it's always one of our eyes is worth a few thousand of yours. They will never get much sympathy from me while they persist with this arrogant attitude of Jewish supremacy

Jimboo_Jones

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Your not wrong, but please note that Israel has also voted into power people from terrorist groups in the past as well.

whats good for the goose etc...

hummm seems the topic was just a pretext to go off on one over muslims, not all muslims are the same as each other you know.

bonkey

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Yes, they should...morally speaking.

However, does the Hamas majority make the current Israeli actions acceptable? Thats a completely different question.

CNN alleged last night that the Israeli PM stated he didn't want anyone in Ghaza sleeping until this was resolved. Lets just clarify that - if this is correct, the Israeli PM has effectively stated that he wants psy-ops carried out against the civilian population.

I've pointed out before that Israel has a very strange approach to achieving the safty of its civilians, in that it responds far more aggressively when the military is targetted than when its civilians are targetted....in effect sending the message that messing with the military is the wrong option.

These people along with Hamas , Islamic Jihad and Al-Queda all have just one goal and that is to destroy OUR ideals and values

'These people' being the terrorists who carried out the kidnapping in the first place, or the civilian populace who have been targetted in retaliation?

I just ask because I'm curious as to whether you're arguing Israel is right to try and subjugate a people, or something less extreme.

Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

"He started it" ceases to be a carte-blanche justification for one's own actions after one leaves the school playground.

On a side note, you might want to read Judges 16:23-30 and reconsider.

Or think on what happened at Pearl Harbour.

Perhaps also its worth noting that civilian casualties in WW1 were an estiamted 5% of the total. In WW2, that rose to an estimated 50%. In Vietnam, 90%.

Is it somehow more acceptable to kill civilians without dying yoruself, especially when you're a professional soldier?

Wlful disregard for civilians is thecrime here, not the tiny sub-set which forms suicide bombings. Muslims did not create this disregard, nor is it unique to those amongst them to whom it applies.

This IMHO is absolute savagery.We look to the Legislature and Judiciary of nations to develop fair,civilised and protective laws.....none of which are evident in countries goverened by extremist islamists.

Tell me...what exactly do you find fair civilised and protective about Israel's alleged targetting of civilians (as mentioned earlier in this post) and/or gross disregard for their wellbeing (as mentioned by yourself wrt. the beach shelling)?

This isn't an either/or situation. Its not a case of "they're wrong, therefore we are right whatever we do", for any chosen groupings of them and us.

While both sides continue to use this logic, both sides are wrong, and peace will never be attainable.

fly_agaric

BlackWizard wrote:

They forced their way onto it and took it over. This has been going on for 1000's
of years, but in this day and age it something that modern society has problems
comprehending.

I think people comprehend it all right.

This type of bullshít is more costly now because there are now so many people occupying a finite + very interconnected world and weapons have become very efficient.

Are you saying that people have always done it so its okay?

Who says we shouldn't try to curb this destructive aspect of human nature?

In fact, it may be imperative that we curb it, or at least limit it as much as possible if we are going to avoid wiping ourselves out (or at least sending ourselves back to the stone-age via another world-war) IMO.

kaiser1 wrote:

But then I saw the videos of the Americans Jack Hensley,Nick Berg and Briton Ken Bigley.These men died a horiffic death all in the name of "Islam".

What has that to do with the troubles in Israel/Palestine, which started well before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism? I thought the original palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters (delete as you like) like Arafat were all nationalist, lefty, secularist types?

The Israelis actions and US favouritism towards Israel in this dispute have however done alot to help the growth of Islamic fundamentalism.

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint. If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

my_house

Israel are using violence to get what they want. isnt that what 'terrorists' do?

silverharp

aidan24326 wrote:

The real reasons for this could be a little more complicated than meets the eye. We know why Israel would want to attack them. But why the US, leaving aside the Jewish lobbying influence in US politics and in particular with regard to Middle Eastern policy. Ahmedinejad has announced that pretty soon Iran will begin to trade oil in euros rather than US dollars as has been the case up to now. With Iran being the world's second biggest oil producer this has some potentially serious repercussions for the Americans, for economic reasons I won't go into here. And the US economy is already in trouble with debt spiralling out of control.

Oil being sold in Euros is an interesting story, there is a theory out there that that was one of the reasons they went into Iraq as they had started selling oil in Euros, to be honest you will never know for sure but given the fascist tendancies of th US in the last few years it can't be ruled out.To the best of my knowledge Irans oil borse hasn't opened yet. I can't wait for the Russians to start selling oil in Euros or Rubles,

wes

kaiser1 wrote:

female mutilation in Nigeria...

I don't know where you came up with that crap, but that has nothing to do with Islam, such mutilation is prohibited. Anyone carrying it out and saying it is in the name of Islam is either a liar or an idiot. This a crime pure and simple and I don't kwow a single Muslim who would say otherwise. Also last I checked most famale mutilations in Africa are carried out by various tribes etc with there own beliefs in Witches etc. Please do your home work. Mainsteam Islam does not accept such mutilation. Also this has nothing to do with Palestian and most of the things you mention in that post have nothing to do with it. You just seem to want to bash Muslims. Yes, there are some evil men who use religion as an excuse, but that does not represent the rest of us. Someone who blows something up is always gonna get more attention than the rest of us who just want to live our lives.

As for suicide bombing and Israel. That situation is very complex and the fact that you are bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic shows how little you know on the subject.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote:

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint.

I'd hate to see what you'd consider an example of Israel going overboard!

Deleted User wrote:

If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

In what way? How many Palestinians should die so that Israel can get their man home safe (being naive and assuming that is actually what this is about)?

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd hate to see what you'd consider an example of Israel going overboard!

There are plenty. Israel has been guilty of gross offences against the Palestinians, and though its all a bit chicken and egg-ish I think they are right on this one. If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences. If the Irish government had defended the IRA, say when they kidnapped Nairac, I would expect nothing but a serious escalation in British military intervention.

RedPlanet

Deleted User wrote:

There are plenty. Israel has been guilty of gross offences against the Palestinians, and though its all a bit chicken and egg-ish I think they are right on this one. If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences. If the Irish government had defended the IRA, say when they kidnapped Nairac, I would expect nothing but a serious escalation in British military intervention.

And do you think it'd be ok if they just killed loads of regular irish people? You know, women and children going about their daily business, that type of thing.

RedPlanet

RedPlanet wrote:

And do you think it'd be ok if they just killed loads of regular irish people? You know, women and children going about their daily business, that type of thing.

No. Not at all. Hence I never made that argument.

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it.

You are a complete [insert word here that wont get me banned from this forum]. You have a simplistic view of the situation. How can you approve a massacre of innocent civilians? What about all those who didn't vote for hamass. What about the kids who can't vote. If you think this action is about one soldier then you're an even bigger [insert word here that wont get me banned] than I originally thought you were.

Can you tell me how the Israeli state murdering and terrorising a whole population of another state is going to improve the security of Israel itself? Carpet bombing, how civilised. Unfortunately people of your mentality are actually in positions of power though, and that is the problem.

DOLEMAN

clown bag wrote:

You are a complete [insert word here that wont get me banned from this forum]. You have a simplistic view of the situation.

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people. Don't waste your time! You'll just get a headache...

DOLEMAN

DOLEMAN wrote:

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people.

I have a sister living in Israel.

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

When people have to resort to personal abuse, then there really is no point debating. As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

Dirk Gently

DOLEMAN wrote:

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people. Don't waste your time! You'll just get a headache...

I thought I did too, although it appears I'm having a relapse.

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

I have a sister living in Israel.

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

When people have to resort to personal abuse, then there really is no point debating. As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

Taking your logic and applying the opposite..

If the Israeli's capture a palestinian soldier, then the palestinians are justified in killing innocent civilians to force Israeli to hand him back.. the realities of war right?


Its like something Anna Coultier would say, you just can't apply logic to it.

RedPlanet

Deleted User wrote:

As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

And how many Palestinian lives equal one Israeli soldier?

DOLEMAN

Deleted User wrote:

I have a sister living in Israel.

So? I have a Irish friend living in Gaza.

My brothers a Doctor. Does that make me knowledgeable about medicine...?

Deleted User wrote:

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

You assume a lot.

My opinions are based on your lack of understanding in your postings.

What age are you?

DOLEMAN

DOLEMAN wrote:

You assume a lot.

My opinions are based on your lack of understanding in your postings.

What age are you?

Could you possibly try and keep the personal stuff out of your posts? You have spent far more time analysing me than you have the Middle East. If you have personal comments, PM me.

Gordon

bonkey wrote:

CNN alleged last night that the Israeli PM stated he didn't want anyone in Ghaza sleeping until this was resolved. Lets just clarify that - if this is correct, the Israeli PM has effectively stated that he wants psy-ops carried out against the civilian population.

They've been utilising sonic booms from aircraft for some time now, this has stepped up in frequency after the soldier was kidnapped. Sonic booms aren't that bad usually but the Israelis fly quite low as far as I understand, and such low sonic booms shatter windows and can cause heart problems and even miscarriages.

I think the Israelis are acting appallingly, especially considering their previous bombing of innocent civilians on a beach. They know fine well that they are laying the ground for extreme suffering and death of innocent Palestinians. That's totally unacceptable and I think the international community should impose sanctions on Israel for gross human rights violations.

bonkey

Frederico wrote:

If the Israeli's capture a palestinian soldier, then the palestinians are justified in killing innocent civilians to force Israeli to hand him back.. the realities of war right?

And what, then, if it wasn't a soldier that the Israeli's had captured, but rather some land....

Jimboo_Jones

Deleted User wrote:

If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences.

hummm so the 10's of 1'000 of people who didnt vote for hamas, or the 1'000's who are too young to vote, well they deserve to die?

Or what about when Isreal voted Yitzhak Shamir, a former Jewish terrorist as their PM, should they have all been carpet bombed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir

yomchi

Deleted User wrote:

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint. If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

I think your uneducated

Jon

Jon wrote:

your uneducated

I presume you're being deliberately obtuse. Good one.

But as with DOLEMAN and clown bag, this thread will be shut down if it's just used for personal comments.

New_Departure06

I blame Israel. Imagine if in response to the Provos kidnapping a British soldier, Britain ordered air-strikes on Derry/West Belfast/Dublin/Cork? The reaction would rightly be outrage on our part and likely worldwide. Therefore the Israelis have no right to carry out this appalling collective punishment. They have bombed civilian infrastructure and this will further radicalise the Palestinian population. It is more likely now that the kidnappers will kill him as revenge. This is so self-defeating.

Israel's is to blame ultimately for its illegal occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, its relentless colonisation therein, and the expulsion of Arab families from their homes. They ethnically-cleansed 770,000 Arabs in 1948 - something that the Israeli Establishment continue to refuse to acknowledge. After the withdrawl from Gaza, they continued - even in ceasefire - to bomb Gazan streets supposedly to kill "terrorists". It's almost as if they were trying to provoke Hamas and the other militants back into a tit-for-tat situation.

Israel is a serious threat to world peace. Economic sanctions now to pressure them into getting their imperialist hands off of the Palestinian territories, or else a consumer boycott.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

I blame Israel. Imagine if in response to the Provos kidnapping a British soldier, Britain ordered air-strikes on Derry/West Belfast/Dublin/Cork? The reaction would rightly be outrage on our part and likely worldwide.

True.

But on the other hand, what if the Irish government said the British soldier would not be handed back until they released every Irish man in English jails?

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

True.

But on the other hand, what if the Irish government said the British soldier would not be handed back until they released every Irish man in English jails?

*oh yes conor, now I see your point. Of course in that situation it would be acceptable for British war planes to carpet bomb Irish cities, killing thousands of evil civilians. I see your logic now. My mistake. You’re absolutely right. I'm sure them evil Palestinians deserve everything they get. Bomb them all to hell.

















*sarcasm

LegacyUser

Hey guys

Just a quick note....This is a forum to debate and argue ones own PERSONAL points of view and I really think everybody should respect each others.It kinda irritates me when these sorts of discussions decend into slagging matches.Everybody who argues my point of view ,I give thier opinion the respect it deserves regardless of if Im for thier point or against.

Im not someone who is ignorant of other religions and Im not just using this thread to attack Islam.But one thing I am and that is honest about my views and opinions. It drives me nuts when Pinko Libreals feel the need keep up the non-stop bashing of U.S foregin Policy and anything else the U.S does for that matter.It wasnt too long ago I remember looking at the cover of Time Magizine and The U.S was being described as the Worlds Policeman....now idea makes me feel alot better.Totake a very very simplistic view of the matter you could almost compare the U.S and Isreal to our own Justice Minister McDowell.He's got the right ideas and only has the nations best intrests at heart but could really do with doing a few classes in P.R

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Here is another thing.People say how bad things are for the People of Gaza.I heard one reporter describe it as nothing more than a rubbish tip.OK...so its gonna need money to try and get itself on its feet. People seem to think that Gaza is poor because of Isreal...but this isnt true.I think they should have asked Arafat how he managed to build up hundreds of millions of dollars in French bank a/cs. Im not going to go into it now but anyone who read Rudi Giulianis book will tell you of a story involving Arafat trying to hand over a cheque at a benifit function for 9/11 victims and why Giuliani had the man thrown out!!

I totally accept that Isreal is a country that sanctions state sponsered asasinations,goes in very very hard,uses torture to get information.....but put yourself into the shoes of a Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorist in Gaza right now and try telling me you wouldnt be crappin in your pants right now...because everybody knows if you put your head in the Lions mouth your gonna lose it!!

Dirk Gently

kaiser1 wrote:

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Is the Israeli state really protecting its people by terrorising the Palestinian people? If I was an Israeli citizen I would be well pissed off with my governments actions as they put me in danger from revenge attacks. I think Isreal is putting a lot of faith in that big wall they built around their boarder and are using it as an excuse to provoke the Palestinians in the hope that they wont be able to breach their security at the wall.

kaiser1 wrote:

Im not someone who is ignorant of other religions and Im not just using this thread to attack Islam.

I'll say nothing about that. Maybe re read your own posts. By the way your civilised role models in America are best mates with Saudi Arabia.

Also, you don't have to be a Pinko Liberal to point out the brutality and terror tactics Israel is using, unless of course anyone who doesn't agree with state terrorism is a Pinko Liberal.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

*oh yes conor, now I see your point. Of course in that situation it would be acceptable for British war planes to carpet bomb Irish cities, killing thousands of evil civilians. I see your logic now. My mistake. You’re absolutely right. I'm sure them evil Palestinians deserve everything they get. Bomb them all to hell.


*sarcasm

Not quite my point really.

Agree with much of the points kaiser1 makes, though dunno if I'd have thrown in McDowell and 'pinko liberals'...

BlackWizard

fly_agaric wrote:

Are you saying that people have always done it so its okay?

Who says we shouldn't try to curb this destructive aspect of human nature?

Im not saying what should be done. Because no one can say what 'should' be done.
They can only say what they want to be done. Often fueled by economic factors these
days

And some people might believe that humans will be humans. So its only natural to
let them sort out their own problems. Often in this day and age it will results in
some deaths.

I actually havent read any other posts bar the page I posted on so Im sorry
for barging in like this. Just wanted to reply. :-)

New_Departure06

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Israel's interests are harmed by this relentless expansionism and bombings. It acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. Also there is a responsibility to accept the Palestinian electorate's decision. The British refused to accept the Irish decision in 1918 and were thrown out. Israel also deserves to be thrown out. It has a "chosen-people" mentality which in its eyes puts it above criticism. So it isn't just Islamic militants who are using religion to justify killing people. Many thousands more Palestinians have died from this conflict than Israelis. The reaction of Israel amounts to collective punishment of an entire population e.g. bombing power-stations, and it rightly has earned the loathing of the vast majority of nations on earth. It has earned this by its relentless imperialism and colonialism.

The US supports Israel because of the Christian extremists in the electorate and political and media domain and their crazy ideas about the state of Israel needing to control all of the occupied territories in order for the "Second Coming" to happen, and because of pro-Israel pressure groups which bankroll many election candidates in the primaries. For many in the US Congress, support for Israel owes less to principle and more to money. The lunatics have taken over the asylum regarding the US foreign-policy on Israel, imho.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

it rightly has earned the loathing of the vast majority of nations on earth.

Has it?

Would have thought most nations, while critical publicly or privately of certain Israeli actions, generally support the right of the Jewish people to live in that area free of the fear of attack from terrorists and to govern themselves. Apart from countries led by Muslim fundamentalists, like Iran, would have thought Israel have a pretty good standing in the world. How many countries have a diplomatic corps in Israel?

New_Departure06

Deleted User wrote:

Has it?

Would have thought most nations, while critical publicly or privately of certain Israeli actions, generally support the right of the Jewish people to live in that area free of the fear of attack from terrorists and to govern themselves. Apart from countries led by Muslim fundamentalists, like Iran, would have thought Israel have a pretty good standing in the world. How many countries have a diplomatic corps in Israel?

Loathing a country is not the same as questioning its right to exist (something I am not doing). I loathe it because of its cruel oppression of the Palestinians. When it cleans up its act I will like it.

Frederico

bonkey wrote:

And what, then, if it wasn't a soldier that the Israeli's had captured, but rather some land....

What are you talking about?

Why do people have such respect for so called "strength".. its easy to march and army in and start terrorising people.. thats simple..?? much harder to use diplomacy and try to move forward. Its not a strength its a weakness. The Israelis need to use new tactics, cos right now they are just recruiting alot of suicide bombers.

banaman

I really don't have either the time or the inclination to argue with you point by point. However there are certain points I would like to make:-
1) if you forcibly eject,discriminate against and vilify the people around you they will NOT just say oh well and let it lie. See history of Ireland.
2) in order to be valid under your criteria Israel's actions should be making the region safer for Israelis. Please explain, with historical details, how any of Israel's actions since the wars that gianed it the OCCUPIED territories have made the region safer for Israelis.
3) I absolutely believe that the targetting or callous disregard for civilian casualties is a criminal act no matter what justification is given for such action.
In this I exclude no country or group. Thus the actions of the allies(actually the British) in atrocities such as Dresden, the American bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the actions of military forces in Ulster & Vietnam, the early bombing campaigns of the IRA, ALL paramilitary activities, suicide bombings in Palestine, Iraq & Afghanistan, police actions such as the disappearings in Latin America,, etc,etc, etc are ALL atrocities and it is precisely because we selectively justify one, or more, that we create the mindset that targetting civilians is an acceptable tactic in warfare.
4) I suggest you surf some of the alternative news websites where you will find an interesting critique of foreign policy objectives.
For instance:-
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.fpif.org/
http://www.counterpunch.com/
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Alternatively search through the following for sites you like:-
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/trt/
http://www.mathaba.net/www/news/
I do not seek to demean your viewpoint, nor will I ever argue that because it is different to mine you should not hold it. I resent being called a "pinko-liberal". Such cheap name-calling adds nothing to the debate. Actually the term you use is an oxy-moron since by definition one cannot be a pinko(ie communist sympathiser) and a liberal. They are two very distinct and mutually exclusive political philosophies.

fly_agaric

BlackWizard wrote:

Im not saying what should be done. Because no one can say what 'should' be done.
They can only say what they want to be done. Often fueled by economic factors these
days

OFFTOPIC:
I believe there is an objective right and wrong in these kind of situations, and therefore you can say that there are things people should not do/should do independent of their own interests.

Sand

In short Kaiser, Palestinians are right, Israelis are wrong. Always.

Generally yes, Hamas are now the Palestinian representitives, so individually they are just as responsible for the action of their representivies as individual Israelis are reponsible for the action of theirs. This incidentally is the argument Pro-Palestinian posters have in the past used to justi....woops, "understand".... terrorist attacks on civillians.

Unfortunately, deliberate attacks on civillians are wrong no matter how understandable or whose carrying them out again who. Israeli figures have come out and stated that efforts like using jet sonic booms to disturb sleep, and attacking electrical generation plants are designed to increase pressure on the civillians in Gaza. This is just as wrong as terrorism against Israeli civillians.

The Israelis should limit their attacks to targeting Hamas figures and offices, and focus their pressure where it counts. Hamas can return the soldier, if he hasnt been ritually butchered yet. Ali Boggs on the street cant.

Seems to me, the Israeli invasion of the Gaza strip is a reaction to consistent rocket attacks on Israeli towns from the Gaza strip. Its likely the IDF will be forced to deploy into the Gaza strip on a semi-permament basis to stop terrorists launching these attacks.

I think the Israelis are acting appallingly, especially considering their previous bombing of innocent civilians on a beach.

Even Human Rights Watch have changed their story on that and now accept the IDF investigation that the family was not killed by Israeli shelling - what shrapnel was found did not come from the 155mm guns the IDF used to shell the rocket launching sites in Gaza. But hey, it helps us to justi...."understand" the Palestinians. Just dont ask why the Palestinians used the civillians on the beach as human shields for their attacks on the Israeli civillians....

And how many Palestinian lives equal one Israeli soldier?

Israel appear to be asking Hamas that question... Seeing as Hamas are happy to use Palestinians as human shields, I cant see them being overly concerned by Palestinian deaths however. Lets face it, the more Palestinians die, the more justif.....understanding...Hamas gets.