Vodafone, Sony Ericsson and Sigma Wireless

Dylan_James

Not to long ago, I was talking to my girlfriend on me Vodafone Sony Ericsson one night. I didn’t notice that the battery was low and just as I said goodbye the phone turned itself off. So I plugged it into recharge and left it off for the rest of the night. This was a bit of a first for me as I never turn the phone off.

Next morning I turn it on, and I get the SIM number screen. I thought "this is strange, I never put that on me phone." but I knew the SIM and entered it. Next comes "Phone Lock Code". Now I am very confused and I didn’t know what to do. I thought it might be the PUK so I went to Vodafone’s site to find out how to unlock it. After that didn’t work I thought it would be best to call Vodafone and ask what’s going on.

I was told by someone in Vodafone "that this is nothing to do with the SIM, its something to do with the phone, call Sony Ericsson" so I did.

Sony Ericcson told me that the phone would need a software upgrade. I asked how I would do that. They said since the phone was locked I needed to drop it into one of their "specialist" repair shops. I asked where the nearest one is and was told it was in Finglas named Sigma Wireless.

So Again I rang Sigma and told them what was happening. They said quite reassuredly said "oh yeah, we will fix that, just leave it with us for a day or two".

"Great!" I thought as I drove out to Finglas that Monday morning, phone will be fixed and it will be all Kool and the gang. When I got there a lovely gold ear ringed, make up plastered on, hung-over girl took me phone and disappeared into the back. She came back and said "Yea the technician looked at it and said he would fix it. That will be €65 please."

"Woh! Hold on a second...”I said "...this phone is still under warranty." Then she looked at me like I was something she found up her nose and said, "Do you have receipt with you?”

"Indeed I do" I said with a smug grin. So I gave her the receipt and she wanted to keep it "to get their money from Sony". I had to insist then I would need a photocopy at least. Fair play to her she was nice enough to go do that. "Last thing before I go...." I said "when should I expect it to be fixed?”
"Tomorrow or Wednesday, sure we will call you and let you know." she said.
"Kool and his compatriots." I replied.

So Friday comes and I am still waiting for this call, I get home from work and give them a ring. They tell me this:

"The phone is water damaged. When a phone is water damaged we can’t repair it. water damage can be from anything from steam from a kettle to condensation like on a window" At this point I am very annoyed as I don’t understand how water damage locks a phone but you can still turn it on and charge it without blowing your electrical mains or frying you in the process.

So I ask:

"So do I need to call Vodafone for a refund or replacement?"

"Errrmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah" was the response I got.

So I rang my dad who is a taxi driver and asked him to pick it up for me if he was in the area and he says yeah he’s around the corner from the place.

Two minutes later I get a call back from him saying they want €15 because they took the time to tell me the phone was water damaged. I said to my Dad don’t pay them just tell them "you haven’t fixed or done anything to the phone." I felt really bad after this as me poor ole Dad is in the autumn years of his life and doesn’t need this kinda stress. Fortunately when the gold ear ringed girl seen my Dad wasn’t happy she backed down and just handed him the phone with some stupid excuse about why she wasn’t going to charge him.

So my dad comes home with this "technicians report" from Sigma and shows me it. The phone also had a big crack in side of it that wasn’t there before. The report was one line;

"Water damaged, USB system connecter failed, warranty invalid." They also took the time to take a picture of the water damage and print that out as a part of their report. Now I know this is a long story and I don’t want to get much longer but my phone as 3 connection ports. USB port, weird Sony headphone connector port and the charger port. The headphones and the charger almost look like the same port. The USB is around the back of the phone, very small.

Guess where they take a picture of and tell me its water damaged and they were unable to connect to another system? That’s right the weird headphones thing and the charger. I was annoyed but at this point I was losing it.

I ring Vodafone again, start explaining the story again and as soon as I mention "water damage" I am immediately cut off by this girl saying;

"I'm not a technician but I know that once a phone is water damaged then it can’t be repaired."

So I ask how I get a refund. She says that water damage is my fault and then the warranty is invalid then she continues with the spiel "the phone is water damaged. When a phone is water damaged we can’t repair it. Water damage can be from anything from steam from a kettle to condensation like on a window"

Really frustrated at the point I say "I don’t know if you noticed but Ireland is a rather damp county most of the time. Are you telling me that Sony Ericsson can’t make phones that can survive in the Irish weather and climate?"

"No I am not saying that..." she replied.”You would have to take that query up with Sony."

"Alright..." says I. "Do Vodafone sell phones that will fail in the Irish climate?" Again for some reason she can’t answer that.

Realizing I am getting nowhere with this girl I say "Listen I will take the phone to the shop tomorrow and talk to them." Eager to get me off the phone she says that’s a good idea.

I am going mad now because last year I paid more then €300 for a phone that doesn’t work now, I spent over €100 on accessories (memory cards) and I have to go to the place I bought it and have the argument again with someone else. That night I decided to try to fix it myself. I went to Google and searched for the problem.

Low and behold there is a program that when you connect your phone to the computer this program can change phone codes. I ran the program and it worked. Problem solved. 2 minutes is all it took for me to fix it.

So there is a valid complaint as far as I am concerned. It’s true I didn’t pay anything to any of the companies involved but the time, effort and stress involved. I feel like I was about to be ripped off big. Vodafone, Sony and definitely Sigma Wireless all have some part to play in this.

I feel like now that I have wrote this down I should go to a consumer rights association now and let them know how these 3 companies are treating customers. I have a feeling I will be told I should have just gone to the Vodafone shop were I bought it and let them take care of it and they will would be right to say that to me cause that’s Irish Law.

But what did I do? Well I have a perfectly working, not water damaged phone and a load of stress. Well Vodafone is walking a thin line with me at the moment and any other problems I get from them I will jump ship to O2 or Meteor and pay them the €30 I spend on credit each month. Sony Ericsson I am just annoyed with for advising me to send this phone to a company like Sigma Wireless. Sigma Wireless are a shower of dossers and other words I can’t post here. I would advise anyone never to take your phones anywhere near them.

Ruu_Old

How long have you got the phone? I would get another opinion to figure out if it actually water damage. The fact that Sigma told you there on the spot that they could fix it is enough, thats their mistake imo. Any chance you have any pictures of the phone before you brought it in as any kind of proof it wasn't you who damaged the side of it? I always use MPRC (Sandyford Industrial Estate), I have even sent them water damaged phones (so probably they could have sent them back) and they repaired them.

Dylan_James

No I didnt have any pictures of it before i sent it too them. I have had the phone more then a year now and i can assure you that this thing was kept in completely perfect condition.

I am not really annoyed with the crack on the phone. I am still annoyed because Sony told me to go to them and they will fix it. Then Sigma said they will fix it. A week later i get the phone back, not fixed and they tried to charge my Dad €15 for telling me that and not even bothering to fix the phone.

I think since now i have written all that out I will go look up Vodafone, Sony and Sigmas websites and email them send them that and see what they say.

Gillo

Sigma didn't repair the phone because it was out of warranty. If a phone gets wet it is no longer covered by warranty. They can't bill back SE if the phone is damaged out of warranty.

The receptionist told you when you left it in that it could be repaired, she didn't actually examine the phone, it could be repaird, you repaired it, Sigma didn't because it wasn't covered by warranty. The reason you were charged 15 euro, was to cover the technicians time to look at the phone, had it been still under warranty, Sigma would have charged SE alot more than the 15. A lot of people don't seem to realise that it's not in a repair centres interest to not repair phones.

To be honest I would take you 360 a year an jump call credit, it will make a big dint into Vodafones pockets.

Take a look on this forum, there are plenty more people like you who "never" got their phone wet.

Dylan_James

"Sigma didn't repair the phone because it was out of warranty. If a phone gets wet it is no longer covered by warranty. They can't bill back SE if the phone is damaged out of warranty."

Incorrect. The phone is not water damaged nor was it ever dropped in a toilet, pint of Guinness, puddle of water or the Liffey. These are examples of what happened to friends of mine phones. If they want to continue with the spiel that "steam or condensation" lark then they are effectively selling phones that will fail in a climate like ours. Either they are aware of this or the whole "water damage" thing is something they say to any customer who has a problem. Also a companies warranty means sweet FA if you take it to court. Phone consumer rights if you don’t believe me because your rights as a consumer don’t diminish over time.

"The reason you were charged 15 Euro, was to cover the technicians time to look at the phone,"

Again I don’t pay mechanics to look at my car. I pay them to fix it. I didn’t pay the builder to come out and look at the patch of land I wanted to make in to my home. I paid him to build me a house. Therefore because they didn’t fix the phone, they didn’t get paid. I know it’s a really long post but please try to pay attention to the story before posting replies.

"A lot of people don't seem to realise that it's not in a repair centers interest to not repair phones."

This is correct. And now I know why it isn’t in Sigma’s interests, Sony Eriksson’s interest or Vodafone’s interest to fix any phone. Companies want to train people into believing that once something is broke, throw it away, then spend more money.

"To be honest I would take you 360 a year an jump call credit, it will make a big dint into Vodafone’s pockets."

I don’t care how much of a dent it makes in Vodafone’s pockets. They announced major loses for last year a while back. It’s their problem if they can’t hold on to customers and need to resort to these types of tactics.

"Take a look on this forum, there are plenty more people like you who "never" got their phone wet."

I think I proved that the phone wasn’t water damaged in the above posts. If you know the SE v800 you will know there are 3 ports, as I stated, USB, weird headphones port and charger. To explain this further, the weird headphones port and charger are right beside each other and to the untrained eye they would look like the same port. They took a picture of this area of the phone and said "water damage to system connector"; The USB is discreetly on a completely separate part of the phone and is nicely covered by a small peel back piece of rubber. If "specialist technicians" can’t find a USB port then maybe they are "special" in some ways.

Regarding the other people who "never" got their phone wet who post on this board. Posting here will tell a story to the people who look at these boards but if that’s all you do then this site is going to get you nowhere. I have worked for some big companies, some good and some bad, but if you are prepared to go the distance with them they usually back down. Legally their warranty doesn’t mean jack if they want to bring that to court so most companies will never go that far. The warranty (that usually comes in the box) is not a contract between you and the company. The warranty is meant to be away for companies to give you, no questions asked, free repair or replacement or refund, within a year usually.

Instead of posting here, why don’t people follow these types of things up and take the action needed? Gillo don’t you think its sad that Irish consumers are prepared to be treated this way by companies who want to do nothing but make money?

Pythia

Everything gillo said is correct.
Phones can't stand the Irish climate. Rain damages them for a start. Would you watch your tv in the garden when it's raining? Have your laptop sitting beside the kettle? No? Well you shouldn't with a phone either.

Water damage can't be fixed for certain. So there's no point in trying to.

Did Sigma get you to sign anything or have a sign or in anyway mention the charge? If not, that's bad. If they did, tough luck, you agreed to it.

What did Sigma say when you questioned them about the crack?

I, like gillo, have seen hundreds of people 'never get their phone wet', yet the circuit board is corroded. Repair companies don't care what's wrong with the phone. They charge SE with the bill, whether it's replacing the phone or finding water damage.

If your phone is still working, even though there's water damage, you're lucky. There might only be a small bit. But any is enough to void the warranty, which is what has happened in your case.

Gillo

Fine take the case, you bought it from Vodafone it is them who you will take to the SCC. For the case to be fair (that is what you want isn't it fair treatment) Vodafone would be allowed to have the phone examined, they'll find the same as Sigma and you won't win.

Don't forget to post here and let us know how you get on.

I sell phones and to be honest, I'd prefer to see phones come back repaired and not BER, it would save me alot of hassle but the fact of the matter is people don't seem to realise that phones are sensitive electronic equipement. As anyone else here that sells phones will tell you the same thing, no one wins when a phone is BER.

The fact of the matter is the majority of people could do with a phone like this.

Honestly, I'm sorry for you that your phone is BER and for the hassle you have had, but it's noone's fault.

Buceph

No one ever makes a representation as to a phones sensitivity when you buy it. I've said it in threads before, but it is possible to show why you should never use a phone, as it may suffer water damage. Every day to day scenario has a possibility that the phone will get water damaged, the shop has to spell it out that you can not use it in any situation. Leave it in the box and you might be ok. Water damage is a load of ****e, and the companies shouldn't be left get away with it.

Dylan_James

I am sorry Gillo I don’t know what BER is. I am not going to take any action against Vodafone or the other 2 places. My phone is working and has no water damage. What exactly would I do in the SCC? Tell the judge I am stressed out with them?

"Did Sigma get you to sign anything or have a sign or in anyway mention the charge? If not, that's bad. If they did, tough luck, you agreed to it."

No I signed nothing with Sigma, nor did I ever sign any contract with Vodafone or SE. When I purchased the phone in the Vodafone shop me and Vodafone had a consumer contract. By selling me a product they have drawn up a contract that effectively says "We are selling you something that will work." Its not like I bought a second hand phone off eBay or one of me friends sold me it.

"What did Sigma say when you questioned them about the crack?"

I never said anything to them, the less dealings I have with them the better. I have however taken a copy of the original post I wrote here and pasted it into an email too the three companies involved and asked that they explain these actions. I am currently waiting on responses. If I don’t get any, then fair enough, but I would hope that Vodafone would have the comment courtesy to reply to one of their customers concerns. I don’t expect a reply from the other two.

"Honestly, I'm sorry for you that your phone is BER and for the hassle you have had, but it's no one’s fault."

Again Gillo I don’t know what BER is, Beyond Expectable Repair? Gillo as I have said there was no water damage. The area they took a picture of has nothing to do with, USB system connectors or why a phone would lock for no reason. Did they even open up the phone and take a picture of the circuit board inside to show water damage? No.

No ones fault? I think it’s a major problem if phone companies are selling phones that will fail in Irish weather and the repair shops they advise you to take your phones too wont bother to even look at the phone.

Gillo I know you sell phones, but I don’t think that qualifies you to determine if a phone is damaged. Fair treatment? Gillo so far I haven’t asked for anything off any of this shower, I posted here to make people aware of the problem with these companies and the tactics they resort to in order for people to just continuing buying their new products. Are you honestly telling me that if you took your 05 car to the mechanics for a problem with the exhaust and they said it was BER because the tires weren’t balanced correctly or you had let too much rain fall on it, would you consider that fair treatment?

Second opinion? OK well I have a friend who has done 4 years in DCU for engineering, I am not exactly sure of what degree or honors he did but I will get him to have a look and post his response here. I am not going out of my way to get an opinion nor will I pay for it. Gillo if you want pass me your on your email address and I will send you scanned shots of the;

1. Picture they took of the headphones and charger connection,

2. The "report" they passed back to me,

3. And a picture of me using my phone.

I will also get my friend to mail you, tell you what exactly he studied, what degree or qualification he done, maybe a contact number for someone in DCU that can confirm all this and let you know if he thinks the phone is water damaged.

"No one wins when a phone is BER."

Except Vodafone, who I buy a new phone off, Sony Ericsson who gets a nice slice of the new phone sold and Sigma Wireless who sends a nice bill to Sony Ericsson that obviously isn’t the cost of new phone share they receive. So the only people that lose here are me and you Gillo as I am the customer with a broken phone and you are the guy in the shop who I have to argue with for my money back. No I am sorry Gillo that statement is completely false.

"Would you watch your TV in the garden when it's raining? Have your laptop sitting beside the kettle? No? Well you shouldn't with a phone either."

No of course I wouldn’t but a TV is connected to the mains of my house. That’s a lot of electricity. Same with my Laptop. Not only to protect my TV and Laptop but a fuse blown in one of them could the take the mains with them. My phone isn’t. If Vodafone or Sony put a big sticker on the box of all mobile phones saying;

"WARNING! This phone may not operate correctly in the Irish climate or may completely fail! PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS PHONE OUTDOORS"

Would you buy one? Kinda defeats the purpose of calling them "mobile" phones.

Buceph

Dylan_James wrote:

"WARNING! This phone may not operate correctly in the Irish climate or may completely fail! PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS PHONE OUTDOORS"

Would you buy one? Kinda defeats the purpose of calling them "mobile" phones.

You can add to that;
Don't move this phone between rooms of varied temperatures.
Don't put this phone in your pocket(sweat).
Don't take this phone into a kitchen.
Don't subject this phone to humidity.
Don't breathe on the mouthpiece(condensation).
Don't take this phone out of it's box.
Don't buy this phone.
Don't buy anything electrical.
etc.
etc.

Pythia

I've just looked in my Nokia's manual and it says

"Keep the device dry. Precipitation, humidity and all types of liquid or moisture can contain minerals that will corrode electric circuits."

I think that spells it out pretty clearly tbh.

Dylan_James

Pythia where was your manual when you bought the phone? In the box? Yeah that’s what I thought. Just went to dictionary.com there to find exact definitions for you;

Precipitation
1. Any form of water, such as rain, snow, sleet, or hail, that falls to the earth's surface.
2. The quantity of such water falling in a specific area within a specific period.

Humidity
1. Dampness, especially of the air.

OK that leaves any type of contact with the air (especially in our lovely climate) outside the plastic rapping could damage your phone. Pythia don’t you think they are leaving wording a little open for any interpretation? You have just completely proved my point with very little effort.

"Don't move this phone between rooms of varied temperatures.
Don't put this phone in your pocket (sweat).
Don't take this phone into a kitchen.
Don't subject this phone to humidity.
Don't breathe on the mouthpiece (condensation).
Don't take this phone out of its box."

Definitely needs to be added to that Nokia manual your reading there.

Pythia

There was actually a whole page of dos and don'ts. I only included one. Some more of what you mentioned are written in the part I didn't type in.
And the humidity one I already mentioned.

Dylan_James

So Pythia are you seeing the light here?

formatman

should have bought a nokia

secret_squirrel

I think some posters are missing the point here.

There are 2 possibilities -

1 the OP got the phone wet - lets assume unknown to himself.

2. Sigma got their facts wrong and were either too lazy or incompetent to check his phone out properly.

Given the facts (as stated by the OP whom we have no reason to disbelieve although some posters here clearly want to)

a. The phone came back with a crack in it.
b. The OP fixed the phone in 2 mins via google.


This suggests to me that option 2 is the most likely scenario and the OP has just cause for a rant against VF, SE and Sigma.

End of.

Honestly if people are going to doubt the basic facts that an OP puts up, whats the point of even contributing to the thread?
Its the internet ffs - either assume the OP is telling the truth or feck off and dont bother thread spoiling. /rant

Stky10

Slightly OT but anyway,

I've had problems with both Sigma and MPRC before. They both advertised they could fix Samsung phones (don't know/care if they still do), I rang both up before I posted the phone off to them to confirm they could fix samsung's, and once I'd sent the phone in the post, both posted it back to me saying that they didn't fix samsungs.

I also got a "water damage" report back from Sigma for an Ericsson phone. Took the phone apart myself, resat some connectors, played with it for 5 mins, put it back together and it worked.

I tried a couple of other places trying to get the Samsung fixed. Most didn't have a clue. In the end, I left it for 6 months and forgot about it, and one day picked it up and turned it on and it worked. Some places may be reputable and have skilled/qualified people working there, but some are obviously the product of a night course in how to solder.

jimmycrackcorm

I'd love to know how it is that any one who brings a phone in with a fault always gets the line trotted out about water damage. I brought my wifes phone in once where the phone worked with the exception that it would not ring and got this excuse. I was so curious why water could solely attack the ring speaker.

Dylan_James

As I said I have contacted all the companies involved and so far Sony Ericsson have only replied. So I rang Vodafone phone and told them i sent them a email, the website said i would be answered in 24 hours. One week later still no reply.

So I wasnt going to explain the whole story to the guy i got through too and he told me that his department dont deal with emails. I told him to get on to the department that does and tell them to get the fecking finger out and they were walking a very thin line at the moment with me.

He offered me to speak to a manager (typical call center get them off the phone) and i told him, no i dont want to explain all this to them again, get someone to read my email and then either email me back or call me back.

They have 24 hours before I call again. Anyone who wants to PM me their story about phones and "water damage" go ahead. I have enough spare time to waste doing this and i will see how far I can push them.

Gillo

Dylan_James wrote:

He offered me to speak to a manager (typical call center get them off the phone) and i told him, no i dont want to explain all this to them again, get someone to read my email and then either email me back or call me back.

They have 24 hours before I call again. Anyone who wants to PM me their story about phones and "water damage" go ahead. I have enough spare time to waste doing this and i will see how far I can push them.

Don't have enough time to explain, then enough spare time to waste????

Why do you want other people to PM you, surely in the interest of fairness anyone who has had a good experience should also pm you?

Dylan_James

Ohh its looks like we all know who Gillo sells phones for now!

Gillo anyone who wants to PM me can, I am relatively new here but that’s the way this site works I believe. I know I haven’t as much posts or phone selling experience as you but surely you know that already?

If there is anyone who wants to PM me about a good experience with water damaged phones then go ahead. I will take the time to read them all and reply even if they are like utter s***e you have posted on this thread. They can also post on this thread;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054970961

This is for people who want to tell about the good customer service they have received. All I am asking is for people who have bought phones from any of the big operators, then found a fault but when they went to get the phone repaired they were given this lark about water damage to an unrelated part of the phone.

Gillo my time is my business and to be honest I don’t like talking to monkeys in call centres or shops, I don’t need to explain myself to them again and again.

Oh yeah and have a look here;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5028718.stm

Dam I would be worried too if I was selling phones for Vodafone too.

Pythia

Attack the post, not the poster.

Gillo

It's not Vodafone that I work for, also anything that I post here is my opinion and based on my expereince in general, and is definetly not the opinion of (or posted on behalf of) my employer.

Having said that, as you started the thread to discuss your experiences and if feel that as an employee of a network that I am posting with my own (hidden) agenda as opposed to my personnal opinions and fell that it would be better for me not to post, feel free to let me know.

The last thing I want to see is this thread be reduced to throwing insults.

Dylan_James

Pythia, you and Gillo previously in this thread have blatantly called or implied that I am a liar. To again quote you;

"I, like gillo, have seen hundreds of people 'never get their phone wet', yet the circuit board is corroded. "

Not only are you implying that I am a liar, you accuse "hundreds of people" too. Pythia, I don’t like be called a liar either on internet message boards or in day to day life. So excuse me if you don’t like what I have to say or you are worried about the state of Vodafone’s business but please don’t call me a liar and then try to take a moral high ground.

Gillo your agenda is not in question here, if you do work for a network, then I am sure you know all the policy related to that network. But honestly I have won the argument here and now you and Pythia have nothing else to argue. If I was in your shop now Gillo you would be counting out euros for my refund.

Gillo

Pythia posted her opinion based on the information you supplied, she didn't IMO accuse you off or implied that you are a liar. Based on the facts stated she stated her opinion just as you too posted your opinion. I don't think Pythia was taking a high ground.

One of the basic concepts of a site like Boards is that people can and do post their opinions, please accept those opinions even if you don't like what you hear.

I assume you still have the phone?
Without readind the full thread I cannot remember if at this stage the phone is still under warranty, if it is why not left if into an authorised repair centre to have it checked out. Give a vague problem eg, the signal keeps coming and going or maybe it has been turning itself off. See if the repair centre come's to the same conclusion as Sigma. I know you resolved the initial issue but it will give you a second opinion on the state of the phone.

Dylan_James

Well other posters here have opinions to Gillo and they think the same as me.

But opinions are a lot like a**eholes, everyone has got one. My opinions have been clearly stated. True I don’t want to turn this thread into a slagging match, but all you two have done is spout company policy here. Once again, their policy's and opinions mean nothing in court. I wanted this thread for other people to come to me and let me know what their story is. Will I take further action? I don’t know at this stage but all you have done is to discourage other people from posting. I may create a new thread just for this purpose and there I will ask you to be good enough not to post.

Unfortunately the phone is over a year old so yes it is out of warranty now, but if you read the basic consumer rights you will see I would still be entitled to a repair, refund or a replacement. Or have a look at http://oasis.gov.ie/ and see what the Irish law says.

Gillo, since I fixed the phone there is not one problem with it. In fact I was having problems accessing the internet on it before I fixed it and now it’s fine. Everything about the phone works fine now. Even the "water damaged" headphones area doesn’t give me problems when I am listening to some MP3s which is what I originally bought the phone for.

bmaxi

Steady on folks, before you resort to handbags at ten yards let me tell you my experience with Vodafone. My 'phone was "repaired" three times within a four month period. The problem on each occasion, I was told, was dust. Obviously you shouldn't keep your 'phone in a dry atmosphere either.
To cut a long story short, I eventually wrote registered post to the Operations Manager in Vodafone setting out my case, that I was less than happy with their response and that I intended to have the phone independently assessed. I received a letter back within a week, apologising and offering a higher spec model as replacement because " that model is currently unavailable". Smell a rat?
Let's face it, if there is a design flaw, these guys are not going to admit it.
Incidentally, about two years ago I bought a cheapo (€19.99) watch in Lidl. I have accidentally worn this watch both swimming and in the shower but when I changed the battery recently there was no sign of corrosion or condensation whatsoever, how can this be?

Dylan_James

Just got a nice call from the Operations Management Department in Vodafone.

To shorten a 30 minute phone call down, she firstly empathised with my frustration, tried to make it absolutely clear that Vodafone was in no way affiliated with Sigma Wireless, she would pass my comments on to Sony Ericsson regarding Sigma and then proceeded to enquire about the general state of my phone.

I told her, that yes my phone is working perfectly fine and yes I am talking to you right now on it. Then I made my stand perfectly clear. I do not want anything off Vodafone, Sony Ericsson or Sigma. I do want them to stop this nonsense of telling customers that phones are water damaged. She said we prefer the term "moisture damaged" and she admitted that it was a very wide and open term to use. I asked her to explain why Vodafone are selling phones that can become "moisture damaged" and surely that defeats the purpose of calling them mobile phones. She wasn’t able to explain this and said that some phones could dry off!

I was given the impression that she was saying to me "your phone is working, f**k off and be happy with it you stupid do-gooder." I told her that this is against Irish consumer Law and I would be entitled to a repair (which they have failed to provide), replacement or a full refund regardless of their warranty. Again she sidestepped the question.

What did she offer me? Go to the shop where I bought it and ask for a second opinion! (Jaysus where did I hear that before? hmmm someone posting on this thread as far as I remember)

So I can drop my phone in and wait another week without a decent phone. I said no, that’s unacceptable to me at this time. I asked if they did find "moisture damage" to a perfectly working phone what does that mean? She said that the policy is to invalidate the warranty.

And if they don’t find water damage?

Take it up with Sigma.

The blame game goes on. First it was my fault. Then it was Sony's, now it’s Sigma. It’s enough to completely do your nut in.

Sam Vimes

Dylan_James wrote:

Pythia, you and Gillo previously in this thread have blatantly called or implied that I am a liar. To again quote you;

"I, like gillo, have seen hundreds of people 'never get their phone wet', yet the circuit board is corroded. "

Not only are you implying that I am a liar, you accuse "hundreds of people" too. Pythia, I don’t like be called a liar either on internet message boards or in day to day life. So excuse me if you don’t like what I have to say or you are worried about the state of Vodafone’s business but please don’t call me a liar and then try to take a moral high ground.

she's not calling you a liar, she's calling you wrong. no one ever thinks they let moisture got on the phone, yet their corroded circuit board tells a different story

bmaxi wrote:

Incidentally, about two years ago I bought a cheapo (€19.99) watch in Lidl. I have accidentally worn this watch both swimming and in the shower but when I changed the battery recently there was no sign of corrosion or condensation whatsoever, how can this be?

and i've had my phone in the rain and so on. it's luck of the draw. sometimes it'll get water damaged, sometimes it won't. i've never managed to water damage a phone but it happens all the time

and you can't really compare a watch to a phone. a watch doesn't have holes for a keypad or speakers or a usb port

Dylan_James

"She’s not calling you a liar, she's calling you wrong. No one ever thinks they let moisture got on the phone, yet their corroded circuit board tells a different story"

Corroded circuit board or not Vimes there’s a difference between moisture and getting your phone wet. Moisture can never be the owners fault and I don’t believe Vodafone or the rest of them should even try to give customers this spiel. Otherwise you have dropped your phone in a big puddle of water and therefore it’s completely your fault. Originally I posted this thread to find other people who have had a similar experience and I have found them. Other posters here have either;

1. Doubted the fact that I have never got my phone wet.

2. Blamed me for moisture damage to my phone.

"And I’ve had my phone in the rain and so on. it's luck of the draw. Sometimes it'll get water damaged, sometimes it won't. I’ve never managed to water damage a phone but it happens all the time"

So why is it the luck of the draw? Why is it that someone with a Nokia and someone with a SE can go out walking and talking in the rain one day and one of them ends up with a broken phone?

Simple answer really Vimes is that these companies are making and selling phones that can’t stand Irish weather. Even Pythia agreed with that a few posts back
.

bmaxi

I think you are missing my point, the analogy of the watch was just for value comparison ie that a €20 watch can be water resistant but a €200 'phone can't and by the way the watch does have holes in the casing notably for the winder.
Mobile 'phones by the manufacturers' own admission are highly susceptible to, even slight, moisture damage, this being so then every effort should be made at the design stage to prevent this, I don't believe this is happening. Now I am not going to get in to a battle of semantics. It is my opinion, and presumably opinions are what Boards is all about, that Vodafone tried to wipe my eye by exploiting my ignorance of 'phone technology and that if hadn't been persistent then I would have been at the loss of €200, they would happily discontinue the model they sold me (which I believe they have) and carry on until the next poor sod.

Sam Vimes

Dylan_James wrote:

"She’s not calling you a liar, she's calling you wrong. No one ever thinks they let moisture got on the phone, yet their corroded circuit board tells a different story"

Corroded circuit board or not Vimes there’s a difference between moisture and getting your phone wet. Moisture can never be the owners fault and I don’t believe Vodafone or the rest of them should even try to give customers this spiel. Otherwise you have dropped your phone in a big puddle of water and therefore it’s completely your fault. Originally I posted this thread to find other people who have had a similar experience and I have found them. Other posters here have either;

moisture might not be the owners fault but all the repair company sees is a corroded circuit board. they don't know whether it was caused by sweat or a bucket

Dylan_James wrote:

"And I’ve had my phone in the rain and so on. it's luck of the draw. Sometimes it'll get water damaged, sometimes it won't. I’ve never managed to water damage a phone but it happens all the time"

So why is it the luck of the draw? Why is it that someone with a Nokia and someone with a SE can go out walking and talking in the rain one day and one of them ends up with a broken phone?

the luck of the draw has nothing to do with the brand. two people could go out with the same phone. moisture could get into one but not the other. or moisture could get into both and not touch a critical part of one phone. its like asking why one person died in a car crash but not the other

Dylan_James wrote:

Simple answer really Vimes is that these companies are making and selling phones that can’t stand Irish weather. Even Pythia agreed with that a few posts back
.

maybe they are. however, it says that the warranty doesn't cover moisture damage. there's no way it could because electronics and water don't mix. if you know that its impossible to avoid moisture in irish weather, don't buy it

let's put it this way: if you had a pocket sized, battery powered toaster, would you carry it around with you in irish weather?


i had to walk home from work in the rain the other day. before i left rooted out a plastic bag put my phone in it. i know moisture destroys phones so i do everything i can to avoid it

Buceph

Commander Vimes wrote:

moisture might not be the owners fault but all the repair company sees is a corroded circuit board. they don't know whether it was caused by sweat or a bucket


the luck of the draw has nothing to do with the brand. two people could go out with the same phone. moisture could get into one but not the other. or moisture could get into both and not touch a critical part of one phone. its like asking why one person died in a car crash but not the other


maybe they are. however, it says that the warranty doesn't cover moisture damage. there's no way it could because electronics and water don't mix. if you know that its impossible to avoid moisture in irish weather, don't buy it

let's put it this way: if you had a pocket sized, battery powered toaster, would you carry it around with you in irish weather?


i had to walk home from work in the rain the other day. before i left rooted out a plastic bag put my phone in it. i know moisture destroys phones so i do everything i can to avoid it

First off, the warranty means **** all. When you buy it in a shop, the contract is with them, not the manufacturer. As someone who posts on a consumer issues board I thought you would have understood that by now.

Secondly, and the main point, is that these phones are in no way mobile if what you are saying is true. The defeat their own purpose. And that it can happen at such a level is a scam.

chrislad

I remember when a guy came into me, with his 6101 dripping wet. He was swearing and blinding and saying how the phone was useless and we were ripping him off. Another time, a girl came him complaining her pink V3 wasn't working. Opened the back of it, and the moisture indicator was literally melting off! The IMEI sticker was also shriveled up! I asked her if she got the phone wet, and she said "No. I was only talking on it outside". I looked outside and it was pissing out of the heavens.

I'm not going to blame the climate, as that's a stupid excuse. I don't think it's valid except in cases when you're talking in the rain or whatever. We certainly don't have the kind of humidity that would destroy a phone. I also think the OP is being a bit OTT with his 'So it's not really a mobile phone then!?' slant. I've had a load of phones. In the last year, probably at least once a month, I've changed my phone. I've had Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola and so-to-be, an LG. I have had absolutely no problems with an moisture, water, liquid, whatever you want to call it. Yes, I've gotten rain drops on my phone if I was talking on it, and it started to rain, but I always put it away. I've seen people talking while the heavens open above them and their phone is clearly getting soaked. Would you use a TV in the rain? People do get way too defensive over their phones, and having working in a variety of retail environments, from computer games to grocery to stationary to newsagents, I can definitely say that mobile phone customers are by far the most unstable and are more likely to snap. They quite simply do not realise that phones are sensitive electronic equipment.

I'm not saying the the OP dropped his phone in the river, but he has, as all of us have, more than likely left the phone on a window sill, brought it into the bathroom when having a shower etc. I'm not going to comment on Sigma as it's not very professional for me to do so.

Anywho, best of luck with whatever you're trying with Vodafone. Obviously, you feel agrieved with Sigma, and you may have a right to be, but I honestly don't see this going anywhere.

secret_squirrel

chrislad wrote:

Obviously, you feel agrieved with Sigma, and you may have a right to be, but I honestly don't see this going anywhere.

I tend to agree. The moisture damage is a side issue.

Its the fact that sigma (a so called repair center) seems to have in this case used it as an excuse to do f*ck all with the phone, whereas the OP (a complete novice) fixed it in 2 mins.

This suggests that either Sigma are liars and there was no water damage, or that they are incompetent.

OP having a go at Vodafone wont solve anything. You have bee in your bonnet about moisture damage even though you dont KNOW your phone was moisture damaged without getting a second opinion.

You are letting your anger sidetrack you. Take a deep breath and try to think what you want out of this.

Personally I would be looking to make a complaint about Sigma, if I could prove that my phone wasnt water damaged.

Sam Vimes

Buceph wrote:

First off, the warranty means **** all. When you buy it in a shop, the contract is with them, not the manufacturer. As someone who posts on a consumer issues board I thought you would have understood that by now.

if the warranty means **** all why do warranties exist?

yes your contract is with the shop but their contract is with the manufacturer. if they don't follow the manufacturers warranty, whose will they follow?

why should they take back the phone if the manufacturer won't take it from them? then they're making a loss because the manufacturer didn't make the phone waterproof.

the phone got moisture in it. the manufacturer says in big betters "DON'T GET MOISTURE IN THE PHONE" so in what way does the warranty mean **** all? why should you get a refund when something was done to the phone that the manufacturer specifically said will break it?

lets say you bought a hair dryer (or whatever) in america, brought it home and plugged it in here. of course it would explode because of the incorrect voltage. it says in the manual "only for 110 volts" but according to you that means **** all. would you be entitled to a refund then?

Buceph wrote:

Secondly, and the main point, is that these phones are in no way mobile if what you are saying is true. The defeat their own purpose. And that it can happen at such a level is a scam.

the phones are mobile. you just have to be careful with them. i put it away as soon as it rains and get a plastic bag if possible. i never have it in the bathroom during a shower. i don't bring it on dance floors on the yearly occasions i'm dragged onto one etc etc. its just takes common sense

secret_squirrel wrote:

I tend to agree. The moisture damage is a side issue.

Its the fact that sigma (a so called repair center) seems to have in this case used it as an excuse to do f*ck all with the phone, whereas the OP (a complete novice) fixed it in 2 mins.

This suggests that either Sigma are liars and there was no water damage, or that they are incompetent.

this isn't exactly right. sigma get paid by sony to fix phones under warranty. a moisture damaged phone has had its warranty voided and so sigma won't get paid for fixing it. the fact that the problem had nothing to do with the damage is irrelevant.

asking sigma to fix a water damaged phone is asking them to fix it for free. they would have opened the phone, saw the damage and stopped working. they wouldn't have got as far as trying to fix the problem

Buceph

Commander Vimes wrote:

if the warranty means **** all why do warranties exist?

yes your contract is with the shop but their contract is with the manufacturer. if they don't follow the manufacturers warranty, whose will they follow?

why should they take back the phone if the manufacturer won't take it from them? then they're making a loss because the manufacturer didn't make the phone waterproof.

Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE ****ING LAW!

the phone got moisture in it. the manufacturer says in big betters "DON'T GET MOISTURE IN THE PHONE" so in what way does the warranty mean **** all? why should you get a refund when something was done to the phone that the manufacturer specifically said will break it?

The amount of ways you can get moisture in your phone is so broad as to make it impossible to use the phone safely. That's what the problem is. They are not of a build quality to do what they are meant to do. Yes the manufacturer states certain things in the booklet. But firstly, that's after you've bought the phone, so they can't impose any contract on to you if you already have one for the phone.

Secondly, it would seem to be standard practice for phones to be used outside and in pubs and places where moisture could get into it. Because it is standard practice, the product has to be up to that, and it's not. Standard practices can be deemed to be part of the contract and it must be speifically stated for them not to be included, and that never happens.

asking sigma to fix a water damaged phone is asking them to fix it for free. they would have opened the phone, saw the damage and stopped working. they wouldn't have got as far as trying to fix the problem

THE PHONE WASN'T WATER DAMAGED! It was working fine apart from a code that needed to be changed. The company didn't examine the phone properly.

secret_squirrel

I dont really want to get side tracked on the moisture issue which I feel is at best an excuse by Sigma in this case, but I would observe that the Sale of Goods Acts requires a product to be fit for its purpose.

Any phone that sustains water damage during normal use (ie not dropped in puddles, pints, toilets etc, not rained on etc) isnt fit for its purpose and should be returned for a full refund regardless of how little warantee or not is left on it.

Gillo

Circles, Circles, Circles. Are we not just going around and around here.

OP; in one sentence what do you hope to achieve from this. You've stated IYO what happened, now clearly and without waffle, what do you want to see happen?

Vimes, might be a bit extreme putting your phone in a bag but it has worked so far; good man.

For the record there are one or two waterproof phones on the market, there are also waterproof houseing available. Any customer I have shown them to have all said "but they are too big", it's a no win situation you want a small phone but it has to have full waterproof seals.

bmaxi

The amount of ways you can get moisture in your phone is so broad as to make it impossible to use the phone safely. That's what the problem is. They are not of a build quality to do what they are meant to do. Yes the manufacturer states certain things in the booklet. But firstly, that's after you've bought the phone, so they can't impose any contract on to you if you already have one for the phone.

Absolutely. In my opinion anybody who dips his 'phone in his pint or drops it down the loo is not entitled to a repair or refund under warranty but to class somebody carrying one in his breast pocket on a hot summer's day as being equally negligent is laughable.
If you can damage something designed to be carried in your pocket, simply by carrying it in your pocket, then clearly it is not fit for the purpose it was designed. Q.E.D.
I don't profess to speak for the OP but I think he has stated that he is not seeking compensation from Vodafone or anyone else, that he is just exposing a cop out, I,for one, support him in this

Sam Vimes

Buceph wrote:

Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE ****ING LAW!

how is it the law? it says water damage invalidates the warranty. you were provided with documentation that said that when you bought it. you could have refused to accept that warranty and returned it for a full refund at the time but you didn't. by not returning the phone, you accepted that clause of the warranty and so aren't legally entitled to a refund.

Buceph wrote:

The amount of ways you can get moisture in your phone is so broad as to make it impossible to use the phone safely. That's what the problem is. They are not of a build quality to do what they are meant to do. Yes the manufacturer states certain things in the booklet. But firstly, that's after you've bought the phone, so they can't impose any contract on to you if you already have one for the phone.

they can impose a contract after you've bought it. you had two weeks to read the warranty, refuse to accept it and return the phone. i agree that phones should be more robust to water. its crap that your phone can break because of humidity but it the manufacturers state this weakness in the warranty. as with any product or service, if you don't accept the terms then don't buy it. but you have to refuse to accept it before it breaks. what your suggesting is like taking out car insurance after a crash

here's what you want:
http://www.vodafone.ie/phonestariffs/ourphones/phonedetails.jsp?mysterons=5140I&type=all

in fact even that one only says splash "resistant"

Buceph wrote:

THE PHONE WASN'T WATER DAMAGED! It was working fine apart from a code that needed to be changed. The company didn't examine the phone properly.

i've explained that already. i know they didn't examine it properly. they didn't examine it properly because the moisture damage voided the warranty and so they wouldn't get paid for examining it. their first step in any repair is to check for water damage. if they find any, they stop working.

Sam Vimes

bmaxi wrote:

Absolutely. In my opinion anybody who dips his 'phone in his pint or drops it down the loo is not entitled to a repair or refund under warranty but to class somebody carrying one in his breast pocket on a hot summer's day as being equally negligent is laughable.

true, someone who goes for a swim with his phone is more to blame but all the repair people see is the damage. they don't know how it was caused

bmaxi

but all the repair people see is the damage. they don't know how it was caused

Yes you have made that point before. I think we are at cross purposes here ,I don't have a problem with the technician saying the 'phone is water damaged, my problem is the ease with which it can become water damaged.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Commander Vimes wrote:

their first step in any repair is to check for water damage. if they find any, they stop working.

That in itself is a big problem. Thats like saying if the screen is slightly scratched then there is damage to the phone and so nothing on it can be fixed.

If a phone has been effected by wear and tear (i.e. a bit of corrosion taht doesn't effect the devices operation) that is in some way completely unrelated to what the problem is, then that should be fixed.

Sam Vimes

Erik Tart Kite wrote:

That in itself is a big problem. Thats like saying if the screen is slightly scratched then there is damage to the phone and so nothing on it can be fixed.

If a phone has been effected by wear and tear (i.e. a bit of corrosion taht doesn't effect the devices operation) that is in some way completely unrelated to what the problem is, then that should be fixed.

i think it should but sigma wouldn't get paid for doing it. the phone has no warranty and they only get paid for fixing phones under warranty

besides that, once a phone has water damage, the chances of fixing it are negligible. the problem might have nothing to do with the damage but its not economical to spend an hour working on a phone on the off-chance the water damage isn't what's causing the problem

they might attempt to fix a water damaged phone if you pay them

Sam Vimes

bmaxi wrote:

Yes you have made that point before. I think we are at cross purposes here ,I don't have a problem with the technician saying the 'phone is water damaged, my problem is the ease with which it can become water damaged.

the OP was saying that sigma should repair the phone. what you're saying is a different matter entirely.


i don't buy motorola phones because they always break. if you don't like the fact that phones can be easily water damaged, don't buy a phone or buy this. if they were able to make the phones waterproof they would but phones need to have holes for the keypad, speakers and pop port. its just about impossible to make a phone that's both usable and waterproof. the 5140i is the closest they can get

secret_squirrel

Commander Vimes wrote:

its crap that your phone can break because of humidity but it the manufacturers state this weakness in the warranty. as with any product or service,

Thats irrelevant. Regardless of what it says in any warantee or even if it says it in mile high letters outside the shop, - if in a Courts opinion - a phone is not fit for the purpose it is sold, in this case Normal Phone use in Ireland, then the customer is entitled to whatever compensation the Court deems fit.

Regardless of what it says in a warantee or contract - it cannot take away your basic consumer rights under law.

The only get out the manufacturer or retailer has is that few (if any) people would choose to take it this far.

You shouldnt mistake what is customary for what your legal rights actually are.

Post the same question in Legal Discussions if you dont believe me.

Gillo

secret_squirrel wrote:

Thats irrelevant. Regardless of what it says in any warantee or even if it says it in mile high letters outside the shop, - if in a Courts opinion - a phone is not fit for the purpose it is sold, in this case Normal Phone use in Ireland, then the customer is entitled to whatever compensation the Court deems fit.

Regardless of what it says in a warantee or contract - it cannot take away your basic consumer rights under law..

Quote me one court case in Ireland which has sided with a phone that has been found to be moisture damaged.

bmaxi

the OP was saying that sigma should repair the phone. what you're saying is a different matter entirely.

At this point we were discussing hypothetical 'phones that had been dipped in pints and taken for a swim, the OP disputes water damage.

secret_squirrel

gillo wrote:

Quote me one court case in Ireland which has sided with a phone that has been found to be moisture damaged.

Quote me one that hasnt.

Strangely enough its not an issue that goes to court very often. That doesnt take away the truth of my remarks.

If you dont believe them get a legal expert to refute what I have said in this thread.

bmaxi

i don't buy motorola phones because they always break.

Design flaw?

its just about impossible to make a phone that's both usable and waterproof. the 5140i is the closest they can get

And what prohibitively expensive piece of technological genius did they employ to get it even to that stage, considering they are selling it for €159.

Nobody, I think, expects their 'phone to be waterproof, we do expect it to function in everyday life, under conditions we can expect to encounter.