Kitten trouble

bounty_hunter

Hi guys.
I'd like to think I wouldn't have to ask for advice on this sort of thing, but right now I'm just stumped

I've recently rescued a little male kitten (he's roughly 9/10 weeks now) and I'm having a bit of grief with him over one particular issue.
The problem is that he is extremely aggressive during play, and quite honestly, it ****ing hurts. He consistently bites very hard (whereas any previous kittens I've had have very soon learned to bite gently so as not to hurt), digs his claws in, and takes random clawed swipes at me if I happen to move. He also initiates play by running up and savaging my feet/arms/whatever is within reach, which is not only irritating but also dangerous for him, in case he trips me up and I hurt him or something (quite normal for a kitten, I know, but read on...)
Despite my best efforts, I am seeing no improvement whatsoever in this behaviour.

Now, I've never personally kept males myself (I always preferred females in the past), but I know from experience with other people's males/research etc. that males are generally just naturally more agressive. However, this being my first male, I've never had to deal with the issue myself before.

Of course all kittens will bite/scratch while learning to hunt, but none of my females have ever done it to this extent, and even when they have I've very easily and successfully trained them not to. Is it normal for a male kitten to be so vicious in his "attacks" despite my response (see below)?

I have tried the usual telling him firmly that it's not allowed and abandoning the game, ignoring him when he begins to play rough (and subsequently responding positively if he retracts his claws), providing stimulating toys to distract him, and various other methods of training, but all to no avail.
I have even tried whining to signal that I am in pain, to which he responds briefly by stopping and talking back as if to comfort me, but then embedding his claws in me again the second I move.

I'd just like to mention at this point that he has already been thoroughly trained in all the basics (litter training, not to scratch furniture, not to be annoying just to get attention, etc.) and aside from this one thing is a very well behaved little cat.

So what I'm wondering is, is there any other way to discourage this sort of violent play that I don't know about, or is it just normal for a young male to ignore any training and he will outgrow it eventually?

Thanks in advance

Edit: He has of course been fully vet checked, and his behaviour is not due to a health reason.

feylya

Possibly use a squirt gun with water in it to "punish" him for playing so roughly?

bounty_hunter

I personally don't like that idea. It's only natural that a kitten will want to play and being sprayed will only cause him to associate the unpleasantness of it with me. I did attempt it once with another cat as a last resort but she reacted extremely badly and fell out with me for days.

However, I have tried both blowing gently in his face when I spot he's about to attack and hissing at him when he does, neither of which have had a positive result. He paid no attention to the blowing and the hissing just frightened him, which isn't what I want.

Belle_Morte

I had a similar problem with a male kitten I rescued last year. I'd had males before and found him to be far rougher in his play, but I put it down to the fact that he had been abandoned and fending for himself.

The most effective thing I found was to simply stop playing and ignore him for a bit, it took a while but he learned that no one wanted to play with him if he was going bite, scratch or attack my ankles.

Tbh, he seemed to grow out of it of his own accord, and he's quite a gentle cat now.

Garth

Would you consider getting a second kitten so they could play together? Our two were adopted together and we never had problems like that. They keep each other entertained.

eachtrannach

I'd agree with Garth - the guy is just bored and needs more release-mechanisms. The best being, ta-daaaah, a companion. We also have two tomcats (well, ex-tom, youknowwhatImean) who grew up together, no problems unless we start to play rough. Yes, it hurts then (hint: if he claws your hand, never try to retract the hand, gently bump him with it ... he will be surprised and the claws will not stay attached ...).

When our cats were roughly four months old, they even drew blood from each other, they simply cannot gauge their power ...

If your cat at ten weeks has already copped on to the idea that furniture is not a scratching post ... well one! Ours have heard of the concept, but they ae not interested in it.

peasant

We have three females at home. One of them, after three years now, still takes it into her head sometimes, that play is not "proper play" until somebody screams and/or bleeds.

So not a male only domain.

Gordon Gekko

bounty_hunter wrote:

So what I'm wondering is, is there any other way to discourage this sort of violent play that I don't know about, or is it just normal for a young male to ignore any training and he will outgrow it eventually?

Thanks in advance

Edit: He has of course been fully vet checked, and his behaviour is not due to a health reason.

Sounds completely normal to me! Our male was like that when we got him, we thought there was something seriously wrong with him cos he was such a little bugger and extremely rough, no concept of when not to use the claws/teeth, whereas his sister learned very quickly that humans don't have fur and that claws/teeth are bloody painful! He was also unbelievably rough with her, but once she copped on to the tactic of grabbing his head with her forelegs, and pounding the sh1t out of his face with her rear legs, he quietened down a lot

He just grew out of it to be honest - I can't remember the last time he scratched me when playing.

RandomOne

Yep! *Looks down at 4 mth old monster laying on arm looking all innocent*

I just extract his claws from me/my clothes and put him on the floor away from me. He bounds back, sinks claws in (and/or teeth) - repeat extraction and removal.

He gets bored quicker than I get immune from pain! He's pretty much given up trying to get me to play that game anymore.

bounty_hunter

RandomOne wrote:

Yep! *Looks down at 4 mth old monster laying on arm looking all innocent*

I just extract his claws from me/my clothes and put him on the floor away from me. He bounds back, sinks claws in (and/or teeth) - repeat extraction and removal.

He gets bored quicker than I get immune from pain! He's pretty much given up trying to get me to play that game anymore.

This is exactly what mine does. I've never had such a problem with training a kitten not do this sort of thing, hence wondering if it might be abnormal. Perhaps, as with most other species on the planet, the females just catch on a bit quicker

It's sometimes very tricky not to suddenly retract your hand/foot/face/whatever when you're the unsuspecting victim of a surprise attack! Which of course only makes them want to "kill it" further...

bounty_hunter

eachtrannach wrote:

I'd agree with Garth - the guy is just bored and needs more release-mechanisms. The best being, ta-daaaah, a companion. We also have two tomcats (well, ex-tom, youknowwhatImean) who grew up together, no problems unless we start to play rough. Yes, it hurts then (hint: if he claws your hand, never try to retract the hand, gently bump him with it ... he will be surprised and the claws will not stay attached ...).

When our cats were roughly four months old, they even drew blood from each other, they simply cannot gauge their power ...

If your cat at ten weeks has already copped on to the idea that furniture is not a scratching post ... well one! Ours have heard of the concept, but they ae not interested in it.

I wouldn't put it down to boredom to be honest, it's just a natural instinct. Two kittens will display exactly the same behaviour, the only difference is that their feline companion will bear the brunt of it and spare the humans a little a bit

I did of course consider the question of getting two, but at the moment another kitten is just not an option. I always prefer to take/home kittens (not to mention any other sociable animals) in pairs, but from what I could see a home with no other felines would be better for him than no home at all. When it is possible in the future I will most definitely be getting him a companion cat.

I know what you mean, which is why this was worrying me slightly. He's trained so well in everything else that it seemed a little odd that he wasn't responding to the "don't hurt me" training


Thanks a million for all the advice so far everyone.

RandomOne

bounty_hunter wrote:

This is exactly what mine does. I've never had such a problem with training a kitten not do this sort of thing, hence wondering if it might be abnormal. Perhaps, as with most other species on the planet, the females just catch on a bit quicker

Much as I'd love to agree with that statement , I just think it's personality. Some are more affectionate/gently playful than others, and some play more robustly. As said elsewhere on here, this one's mother used to lay on him biting his head to get him to quit. Once separated from Mum, he was an evil swine for a bit thinking (I guess) no Mum to discipline him. Now he's getting the idea, no playmate unless he plays nice too!

bounty_hunter wrote:

It's sometimes very tricky not to suddenly retract your hand/foot/face/whatever when you're the unsuspecting victim of a surprise attack! Which of course only makes them want to "kill it" further...

Yes, looking round to see who's just jumped on the back of the sofa only to get a smack in the face (quote possibly with claws) is a bit tricky not to react to! As is being bent over rinsing out the bath and having him jump on your bare back, only to slip so digs all claws in. That one took some self-control!

Remind me, we have cats because....??? :rolleyes:

Re two cats: I agree the other cat cops it instead of you, but the original cat learns by being on the receiving end of teeth and claws too. Unlike his Mum, I'm afraid I'm not willing to bite his head!

FranknFurter

Yep, probably normal "playfight" most kittens do,... just taken a bit too excitedly by him being without feline company, its a pity you cant adopt another, they would be company for eachother and he wouldnt try to playfight with you as much, he'd learn by getting a swift kitty claw himself!

I had a male several years ago that when we got him he was an absolute monster like that, soon as he was old enough, we got him neutered, after that he calmed down amazingly but was still a bit sharp at times, but as soon as we got a second cat he learnt his lesson from her, rarely did we see a nail after that

Just got a new kitty here ourselves too, (we've named her Typo), and have fallen madly in love with the gal, unfortunately this house is like a sauna at the moment so shes spending a lot of time lying in any cold spot she can find, even seeming to prefer sleeping on the tiles as opposed to the many comfy cat beds and our bed, (but im putting as much ice in her water as possible), but she is as affectionate as all hell.

Good luck, an remember neutering him as soon as is possible will make a big difference!

b

eachtrannach

bounty_hunter wrote:

I wouldn't put it down to boredom to be honest, it's just a natural instinct. Two kittens will display exactly the same behaviour, the only difference is that their feline companion will bear the brunt of it and spare the humans a little a bit

That's what I meant ... you are his only release mechanism, so he sits bored-bored-bored and then mammie comes home ... LET'S PLAY!

By the way - somebody metioned jumps on the back ... our vet's assistant picked one of our guys up when he was three months, held him close to the upper body. The vet's assistant is female, good looking, well built. She was wearing a very light smock. Suddenly she had crossed eyes, started to whimper and mentioned the he had "become quite attached all of a sudden". When I saw the little red dots forming, I had to salute her composure!

bounty_hunter

RandomOne wrote:

Much as I'd love to agree with that statement , I just think it's personality. Some are more affectionate/gently playful than others, and some play more robustly. As said elsewhere on here, this one's mother used to lay on him biting his head to get him to quit. Once separated from Mum, he was an evil swine for a bit thinking (I guess) no Mum to discipline him. Now he's getting the idea, no playmate unless he plays nice too!





Yes, looking round to see who's just jumped on the back of the sofa only to get a smack in the face (quote possibly with claws) is a bit tricky not to react to! As is being bent over rinsing out the bath and having him jump on your bare back, only to slip so digs all claws in. That one took some self-control!

Remind me, we have cats because....??? :rolleyes:

Re two cats: I agree the other cat cops it instead of you, but the original cat learns by being on the receiving end of teeth and claws too. Unlike his Mum, I'm afraid I'm not willing to bite his head!

Oh I was joking about the first bit, don't worry
I think it depends very much on how they interact with other cats during their first few months of life as well.
With chinchillas, the females are generally a lot more wily than the males, but from breeding them I've noticed that if the (more docile) father plays a larger part than the mother in the upbringing of a particular baby, even a baby girl may act just like a typical male.

I know that feeling all too well. Yesterday he launched himself from the back of a chair onto my chest and then discovered that the only way he could hold on was by embedding every available claw into my stomach. I couldn't prevent myself from shrieking at that one

Yes, I understand entirely what you're saying. It appears that the hissing at him when he hurts me may have some effect, seeing as he actually reacted to it the one time I tried, and also because it's how another cat may react, but I'm very reluctant to do it again as it did appear to startle him and I don't want him to become afraid of me.

bounty_hunter

FranknFurter wrote:

Yep, probably normal "playfight" most kittens do,... just taken a bit too excitedly by him being without feline company, its a pity you cant adopt another, they would be company for eachother and he wouldnt try to playfight with you as much, he'd learn by getting a swift kitty claw himself!

I had a male several years ago that when we got him he was an absolute monster like that, soon as he was old enough, we got him neutered, after that he calmed down amazingly but was still a bit sharp at times, but as soon as we got a second cat he learnt his lesson from her, rarely did we see a nail after that

Just got a new kitty here ourselves, (we've named her Typo), and have fallen madly in love with the gal, unfortunately this house is like a sauna at the moment so shes spending a lot of time lying in any cold spot she can find, even seeming to prefer sleeping on the tiles as opposed to the many comfy cat beds and our bed, (but im putting as much ice in her water as possible), but she is as affectionate as all hell.

Good luck, an remember neutering him as soon as is possible will make a big difference!

b

I'm planning to neuter him the second it's possible, don't worry I do realise that will help with this sort of behaviour, but I was looking for a solution I could begin implementing now more than anything really.

Glad to hear about you're so happy with your new kitten. And I love the name! This little fella is lovely and affectionate too (when he's not attacking me!), he sleeps curled up under my chin at night.
I can't access that picture unfortunately. I was all excited about seeing it as well

At the moment I'm sitting with my feet tucked under me to keep them safe from a sudden ambush.

FranknFurter

One vocal noise you might try is....

look him squarely between the eyes and in as deep gravelly snarly voice as you can muster. LOUDLY go,.. "nyang-nyang!-nyang-nyang!" ......but try making it sound "animal like" as opposed to human voice if you get me.

Do it loudly everytime he hurts you and wait for him to back away.
Obviously dont be petting him while your saying it

People will think you are mad, but hell, if it works!
(Used to work all the time with my little guy when he was up to bad things).

(Pic link fixed now )

b

bounty_hunter

Thanks a million Franknfurter, I'll definitely give that a go.

People already think I'm mad anyway, I've learned all manner of chinchilla noises to communicate with my little fluffy terrors

Cat noises too, but I've never thought of that particular one. He responds adorably to purring, which makes me feel fantastic So there's no worries about people thinking I'm crazy

Thanks again!

FranknFurter

Oh, I had a full mental library of cat noises, mostly forgotten now, but this little ones re-teaching me, and she has some bizarre ones herself!
She snores like a freight train and her purrs often sound like a cross between a purr and a old dishwasher, she goes from love frenzy to trance-state in a matter of a minute while your petting her its so unusual, and she chats and chitters like a flock of birds We love her!

Ah yes, "Muert!" was one I often used too, as a gesture of "ok, fine, be like that!" lol My last cat was famous for his "Muert's".

(Shes a calico btw, cant see it in that pic I know).

b

bounty_hunter

Aww, she's adorable!

This little thing also has quite an impressive vocal range. He had a very distinctive "chatty" meow that he uses when randomly commenting on stuff that's going on, it's quite unusual. It's sort of a rising intonation as if he's asking a question. He sounds Welsh

Then there's "I'm hungry" meow, "look at me" meow, "fetch me the mouse I just lost under the sofa, slave" meow, etc. etc. Compared to my other cats it's surprisingly easy to tell what he wants just by noting the tone he uses. Very useful!

Glad to hear I'm not the only nutter who meows at their cat

FranknFurter

Nah, Im fraid im one of these lunatics who thinks "well if they have to learn certain words from me, I should as least try to learn some of theirs from them!"

Besides, its fun and I've always been "a bit weird" so ppl are used to it!

b

bounty_hunter

Oh yeah, it's great fun! I love to see the kind of reaction I'm going to get, they always seem a bit shocked to discover you can speak their language Although more than likely they're thinking the same kind of thing we think about foreigners trying to speak English, and vice versa.

This thread has really descended into a chat more than anything else now
Anybody got any more advice?

FranknFurter

OOP'S!
Sorry, another idea just popped into my head!
Buy a cheap baby's "rattle", keep it in your pocket, everytime he does it rattle like theres no tomorrow!
If that dosent stop him nothing will! LOL

b

bounty_hunter

Oh I don't mind, but the mods might

I'm willing to bet he would just play with it if I did that!

gypsygirl

Oh my God! This tread has made me laugh soo much. I can idendify with so much of it; I rescued a queen 10yrs ago ( she was 4 mths at the time ) and she was so vicious, attacked everything that moved, including my Shepherd & Dobie, still top girl today. if we don't get up when alarm goe's off, Cathy gets us up by biting our toes or eyelids. tiny cat, huge personality, Sorry I can't offfer any advice, but man I laughed so hard 'cos it sound like you're living with my cat.

bounty_hunter

Haha, delighted to hear about the getting you up bit Mine does exactly the same. He licks and pokes at my eyes and actually tries to pry my eyelids open the second he deems it time to get up. I'll never sleep through my alarm again.

FranknFurter

On the subject of sleep,
Our little girl had to be confined to kitchen last night, apparently the temptation to "ambush" moving duvets is just too hard for her to resist when she gets a sudden 5am burst of energy!
This "energy burst" thing is so much fun to watch. for about 5 mins suddenly out of nowhere, she runs around the rooms running almost on the walls "wall of death style"!
Shes like a feline evil kenival (sp?)

b

b

Tabitharose

http://www.kittenadoption.ie/aggression.htm

bounty_hunter

That was the first place I looked Tabitharose

I knew all those bits already and of course searched the net for imformation before posting here, but it was the fact that he wasn't responding to training that I was concerned about and was more looking to hear from people who'd had the same experience Thanks for the link though, much appreciated.

magnumlady

We just got a male kitten abandoned here about a month ago and he sounds just the same as your lad!
You can't walk through the kitchen without him attaching himself to your leg and biting the hell out of you.
Luckily we have another tom cat (well not lucky for the cat) who still thinks he's a kitten and they fly all over the place biting eachother, so it takes a bit of the pressure of us!

bounty_hunter

Yep, sounds all too familiar. I made the mistake of wearing socks around the house so he wouldn't be able to single out individual toes but it just gave him something to cling on to :rolleyes:

Still no progress here...

magnumlady

My fella has now decided to try and climb up my leg when I'm washing up and bites my hair!!
The only good thing is that my female cat was exactly the same when she was a kitten and now is so lazy she hardly moves.
So I guess they'll grow out of it.

RandomOne

bounty_hunter wrote:

Yep, sounds all too familiar. I made the mistake of wearing socks around the house so he wouldn't be able to single out individual toes but it just gave him something to cling on to :rolleyes:

Still no progress here...

I do feel for you but at the same time:

You'll be pleased to hear the evil swine I've referred to in this thread hasn't attacked me for a whole week.

So 4.5 mths it's taken (I've had him since birth) but he's got the message it seems.

(I wouldn't mind, but I even called him "VB" = "Vicious b******" and he really doesn't deserve it now)

darkflower

funny but i prefer male cats. the reason? you don't have to worry bout female cats giving birth every now and then..they are a bit naughtier though. but my cat senses if their kind of play is quite rough. when i get hurt i don't move the part of my body he has bitten and that does the trick..he won't try to dig deeper.in an almost apologetic way he would release and just sit..try it! it might as well work with your cat.;)

bounty_hunter

If you got female cats spayed you wouldn't have to worry about that anyway
Incidentally, any responsible cat owner should have their male neuteured too, you may not have to deal with unwanted kittens but somebody else will have to.

Thanks for the tip darkflower. I've tried it though and it has absolutely no effect Aside from anything else it's sometimes impossible not to jerk away when you suddenly have a dozen little needles piercing your skin.


Bit of an update:
I know I said I was reluctant to do it, but it's got so bad I've reverted back to the hissing at him when he hurts me. It's not having the effect I desired, but at least he's making some kind of response. He's no longer frightened of it, but (a good proportion of the time) the combination of a hiss and a solid stare makes him settle back for a couple of seconds at least, before bouncing right back at me again

bounty_hunter

Sorry to drag this old thread up again, but the issue has turned into a complete nightmare situation and I'm really not sure what to do.

Absolutely nothing I have tried so far has worked, which has included all the suggestions in this thread, and it's got so bad now that people are starting to worry about the marks left all over my arms and legs. (For anyone who hasn't read the rest of the thread - young male cat plays very viciously, hasn't responded to any training despite excellent training in everything else).

He has now taken to terrorising anybody who comes into the house, including complete strangers, which is causing a real problem when there are visitors.
Anything that moves is open to violent attack, and I can't pick him up and cuddle him for even a few minutes without him biting/scratching so badly that I'm left looking like I've been in some kind of freak blade-related accident.

I think it's important to note that this is mostly done in a playful manner (ie. it's not his intention to hurt), but it's extremely aggressive play and it has to stop before he's forced out of the house by angry humans (not me!)

Somebody please help!
I have gone to extremes that I really didn't want to (including scaring him into submission and "falling out with him" for hours), but all to no avail

This really is urgent.


EDIT: He is only just over four and a half months, but I have spoken with various vets and found several who are willing to neuter him early considering the circumstances (also displaying signs of sexual maturity), in the hope it might help with the situation. Obviously this alone though will not solve the problem.

FranknFurter

If the vet is willing I would strongly suggest early neutering (the age he is now should be absolutely fine).
An aunt of mine had a very similiar problem many years ago and it made a world of a difference.

hmm.... dont know how effective this idea would be but,.. maybe try contacting somone who is used to rescuing feral cats, they may have some experience on calming a "over-zealous" kitty. I think there are some people who post here who may have such experience.

B

(Just somthing else, I was told recently that too much protein in their diet can make cats hyper, maybe reduce it, try and find a food that is under 30% protein. (Let me know if you do, been looking myself, lowest I can find is 30%).

bounty_hunter

Hi FranknFurter. It's not the age that matters, it's the size of the cat. He's still a bit on the small size for a full doze of anaesthetic, and not all vets are comfortable with trying to guage the right amount for a cat that could technically wait another month (by which time he will have grown a lot).
However, I've managed to convince a few to see my point of view, and they think it will be no problem.

I'd never heard that bit about the protein, I'll give it a go! Thanks.

On the feral cat bit, anyone here able to lend their wisdom?

cotton

They're neutering cats at 8 weeks old so I wouldn't be worrying about his size.
As he's doing this a lot, do you just not play with him for fear of being hurt or are you still playing as much but with toys?
Have you tried a feliway plug-in?

bounty_hunter

I'm not worried about his size, this is just the feedback I've been getting from vets

I'm playing just as much as always, and I've always used toys. Bit of a bad habit to start cats off with hands! He adores toys and has almost as many of them as I had as a kid (with him being an indoor cat I update them regularly and take them out on rotation so he always has a fresh selection to keep him amused), but after a while of playing with them he'll suddenly stop and launch himself at the nearest fleshy object instead.

The most obvious and immediate conclusion I could draw from all this is that he's just looking for attention, but he's not getting any from it! Aside from the times when I'm not on the alert and ready to reprimand him (eg. when I'm asleep <_<), he gets absolutely no gain from it whatsoever. He's either removed from my leg/chest/arm/head/feet/hands/whatever and subsequently ignored, or put outside the room on his own to cool off, so how can he possibly think that this is a way to gain attention?

Could you please describe briefly how a feliway plug-in works? I've only vaguely heard of it before and if it's a viable option I'd like to give it a go. Thanks!

Nala

*I haven't read a lot of the thread so sorry if this has been suggested before*

Maybe try clapping your hands loudly in front of his face? Might give him a fright. Or try a whistle, the most high-pitched one you can find, and blow it really loud when he hurts you?

He might well grow out of it in time, I know what you mean though, cats can bloody hurt you!!!

bounty_hunter

Hi Nala.
I've tried the clapping, but he only seems to see it as an indication that "the hands" want a fight. A whistle isn't an option, as there is a very young child living in the house attached to mine and it's mostly in the evenings that this is a problem (due to limited potential attack time before I go to work).

Thanks for the suggestions!

brian_rbk

my cat duncan was exactly the same... terrorising visitors when they came to the house. He's 7 months old now and is slowly growing out of it. The main thing is not to tolorate him playing with your hands ... even when he's not biting or scratching. He got neutered a month ago and that seems to have calmed him down alot, also his 2nd teeth have come through now (maybe that was irritating him) ... He still bites the odd time, but its getting better.