Equipment that is needed for the aircorps.

cyrusdvirus

punchdrunk wrote:

so whats your point?

It should be further. Remember about 15 years back there was a ship that took an unholy battering from a North Atlantic storm, got out a Mayday etc and it was a USAF copter, HH-53's I think, with a Herky refueling bird in attendance from the UK that had to go and take the crew off. Ireland should have that capability.

cushtac wrote:

The Air Corp is not going to get back into the offshore SAR game, it's too expensive.

Excuse me for sounding incredibly melodramatic now, but what price is a life worth?


[EDIT]

However, I will concede the point that the Coast Guard comes under the DoT purview rather than the DoD, and therefore maybe here is not the best thread to be arguing my point, as it IS an Air Corp thread

[EDIT]

punchdrunk

i would hazard that 95% of all long range jobs are not to irish crews,vast majority are spanish/ russian... so maybe they should foot the bill for a long range sar capability? even the us coastguard which has far more water to cover than pretty much anyone else has the jayhawk with only 300nm range with something like 30minutes max on station,plus they use that stupid basket thing which wastes valuable time so the numbers they can hoist in that time are reduced,plus it's a much smaller machine,61 can hold about twenty survivors

edit to add,most of our crews are ex aer corps so i guess it is sort of on topic!

cyrusdvirus

punchdrunk wrote:

i would hazard that 95% of all long range jobs are not to irish crews,vast majority are spainish,russian maybe they should foot the bill for a long range sar capability? even the us coastguard which has far more water to cover than pretty much anyone else has the jayhawk with only 300nm range with something like 30minutes max on station,plus they use that stupid basket thing which wastes valuable time so the numbers they can hoist in that time are reduced,plus it's a much smaller machine,61 can hold about twenty survivors

edit to add,most of our crews are ex aer corps so i guess it is sort of on topic!

By the 95% I assume you mean deep water jobs?

And while the Jayhawk is the main USCG copter, is there not an agreement with the USAF that the HIFR capable Pavehawks (the ones they use for Combat SAR ops) that they are available in case of emergencies?

Are you a member of the CG?

punchdrunk

i'm not my father is though,ex aer corps and now with over 10,000 hours on the 61

yeah i'm sure USAF provide backup cover,pretty much like the RN if there's a merlin handy or a lynx on the back of a destroyer in the area then i'm sure they'll go do the best they can but wet winching/winching onto ships wouldn't be their main area of expertise,and choppers might not always be around (i'm sure the middle east is straining the resources of all u.s arms)

cyrusdvirus

Well I'm only speaking in terms of personal opinion, not knowledge or experience. In real life I'm a computer geek!!

And I have to agree with you regarding the US forces in the mid-east, that it is a drain, but would it not be the Army equipment that is taking the wear and tear, rather than the USAF, USN or even the USCG?

punchdrunk

thing is for every army blackhawk that goes u/s in afgan or iraq due to sandstorm or smallarms/rpg whatever and needs servicing and spares,well thats a drain on everyones spares pool for the blackhawk fleet,and front line always get looked after first so i'd say even the u.s.a.f is pretty stretched at the moment

cyrusdvirus

punchdrunk wrote:

thing is for every army blackhawk that goes u/s in afgan or iraq due to sandstorm or smallarms/rpg whatever and needs servicing and spares,well thats a drain on everyones spares pool for the blackhawk fleet,and front line always get looked after first so i'd say even the u.s.a.f is pretty stretched at the moment

Fair point but at this stage the US has been in a state of war for 4 years now, and that is PLENTY of lead time for the manufacturers to get tooled up with spares.

punchdrunk

i dunno,i was on a site a while back were u.s snipers were asking for people back home to donate scopes,bino's etc to them because they were short on them in the field and they couldn't be got through offical channels,
look at all the modded hummers because they can't make the up-armoured hummer's fast enough,or the air calvary's light tank to replace the sheridan thats now about ten years late,the u.s military budget is pretty ugly at the moment so supply problems wouldn't surprise me at all,esp with stuff like socom op's heli's like the pavehawk


anyway getting back on topic the aer corps should concentrate on the chopper force to provide larger support role to the army,jet's are about the tenth thing on the list that i would buy!

cushtac

gatecrash wrote:

Excuse me for sounding incredibly melodramatic now, but what price is a life worth?

Excuse me for being blunt, but it's worth the approximate €45 million a year that the government pays to CHC for the SAR service.

The Air Corp was due to spend €70 million for three S-92 helicopters. Given maintenance, training and the like, one of those three wouldn't have been available for SAR, leaving only two helis on call. On top of that €70 million there would also have been the salaries & pensions for the AC personnel involved, the cost of fuel and the cost of the facilities needed to house the helis around the country.

For their €45 million the government gets 4 S-61's available round the clock, with two more as back-up should anything happen to ground one or more of the operational helis. That €45 million also covers all the extras I mentioned above.

Ireland has never had better SAR coverage than it does now. That's not meant as a dig at the AC crews who risked their lives for years in unsuitable aircraft. The AC is too small a force to be able to provide the type of service CHC does and fill its other roles at the same time. Privatising SAR was good for the country & good for the AC too.

IrishAirCorps

There is 1 Dauphin still operational doing MATS and VIP transport. Interesting to note that the AC wont do offshore SAR anymore as CHC are better equipped for the role it is also interesting to note that the same is happening in the UK with CHC UK doing the majority of the SAR and the RAF/RN/RM are scaling down the SAR roles with a look to getting rid of it altogether.

cyrusdvirus

punchdrunk wrote:

anyway getting back on topic the aer corps should concentrate on the chopper force to provide larger support role to the army,jet's are about the tenth thing on the list that i would buy!

If Ireland had the military infrastructure to justify it, then yes I would like to see front line jets in service. But we don't.

punchdrunk

not sure you got me there,i was saying that i don't rate jets highly on the "need to buy list" choppers and casa's is where the money needs to go

Kaiser_Sma

therecklessone wrote:

So why do we need 16 Cold War-era fighters designed to shoot Warsaw Pact MiGs out of the sky, and Hawk jet trainers to train for these expensive toys?

Thats why we'll get about 50 if these to shoot down

bk

It seems to me that the AC should be focusing on Heli's and UAV's to support the Army and Navy.

UAV's seem to be a particularly good idea that I hadn't thought off. They would prove very useful in support of peacekeeping troops abroad and money protection and anti terrorism operations at home.

A long range UAV's might work very well for coastal observation.

Anyone know what UAV's the AC are buying?

It would also be nice to have enough medium lift heli's that Irish troops at home could train on them and use them for real abroad.

One or two cargo planes might be handy. But less important then Heli's or UAV's, we are rarely in a rush to get anywhere and can usually hitch a ride with other UN forces. However one or two cargo planes could be used for humanitarian operations as well as by the army, so not an awful idea.

Can Herc's be dynamically configured, if they could be quickly changed from transport to maritime patrol/reconnaissance and back, then they might be easier to justify.

As for jet fighters. Eurofighters would be a complete waste of money. Even if we had them we could never stop the UK, France, Germany, etc. from invading if they wanted to. The only practical reason for needing jets would be to engage terrorists in civilian aircraft and a cheaper jet like the Hawk or second hand F16's armed with sidewinders would be sufficient.

babybundy

bk wrote:

The only practical reason for needing jets would be to engage terrorists in civilian aircraft and a cheaper jet like the Hawk or second hand F16's armed with sidewinders would be sufficient.

if thats the case a few more air defence systems dotted around at stratigic locations

Vorsprung

Our new toy!



Linky

bk

babybundy wrote:

if thats the case a few more air defence systems dotted around at stratigic locations

Air defence systems have limited range or at least the cheap ones do. The expensive ones that cover large areas are as expensive as a cheap jet fighter which would potentially give you more versatility.

Maskhadov

bigjimthefirst wrote:

Our new toy!



Linky

Looks a bit too gay for my liking

darkman2

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/Release+ID/77B5505A10BB1797802571C7004FFAB9?OpenDocument


Whats the capiblity of these helis. Did they aquire the weapons??

Vorsprung

Maskhadov wrote:

Looks a bit too gay for my liking

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dub13

How can a helicopter look Gay...?

Maskhadov

the colours around the windows......

Vorsprung

Maskhadov wrote:

the colours around the windows......

This is a safety feature (from what I've read)

And FYI,
this is gay.

Maskhadov

bigjimthefirst wrote:

This is a safety feature (from what I've read)

And FYI,
this is gay.

HAHAHA... yes it is

cushtac

darkman2 wrote:

Whats the capiblity of these helis. Did they aquire the weapons??

Looks like they'll mount a machine gun on each door. The Air Corp's already sent personnel to the RAF to do a course on such gunnery.

Morpheus

Oh my God.

Looks Gay?

We think its a useless heli?

etc etc...

Is this what were reduced to?

look, the chopper can ferry 8 fully equipped troops plus 2 doorgunners plus flight crew to a destination very quickly and drop them off and get out just as fast its also one of the most reliable choppers to be in if you're reduced to a single engine.

They will mount GPMG's from the doors although i would assume most likely one gun per flight with a capability for two.

Although not armoured say as a blackhawk would be, consider that weve never had armoured helis serve before (maybe the puma but that was a loan?) this is a huge hige step for the rotary wing, these are reported to be very capable heli's, but this is the first military sale of the heli so we will have to wait and see.

Having de-bussed from a hovering allouette on more than one occassion, i cant wait for a chance to jump out of something that not only doesnt feel like the first big gust will upend it, doesnt rise up 2 feet everytime another bod jumps out and HAS a gunner covering troops backs as they get out, but something that also gets you there quickly and efficiently and doesnt take 3 flights (2 depending on fuel levels) to get your section-minus to the LZ plus you will still have all your kit with you and not just webbing.

Give them a chance.

Maskhadov

We should have got the black hawk... well at least the TD's will be happy with the civvie purchase.. it can ferry harney around the country.

therecklessone

Morph&#233 wrote: »

Give them a chance.

Don't you understand? They look gay...



Well said BTW.

cork1

As far as I can see the only ones that make any sense at all are the c-130's but some minister would probably decide to put big leather seats and a four star restaraunt onboard and use it for ministirial transport.

IrishAirCorps

Morph&#233 wrote: »

look, the chopper can ferry 8 fully equipped troops plus 2 doorgunners plus flight crew to a destination very quickly and drop them off and get out just as fast its

True but the UH60 Lifts more and has the option of 2 refuel tanks and rocket pods ( 1 tank and rocket pod on each side ) including the Gatling gun operator......................

I think the UH60 would have been a better pick id rather be ferried around in something like this....

MEDIVAC ROLE


ROCKET EQUIPPED


CSAR


IMAGINE THE ARW HERE


HIFR


DEPLOYMENT