Protests against Israel?

joseph dawton

I am outraged by the attacks on Lebanon, they go far beyond what would be a measured response against Hezbollah. I for one would like to protest at the Israeli embassy, does anyone know of anything organised?

joseph dawton

How mature of you, I thought this was a forum for debate not for childish harranging of other people. Do you think bombing the **** out of civilians (25% of dead are children) is ok!

gandalf

Bubba Gump banned for 2 weeks for personal abuse and trolling.

Joseph next time do not react to posts, use the report this post function (ie this icon http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/images/buttons/report.gif).

tallaghtoutlaws

Do you honestly believe the Israeli government care what you think? Seriously they are Americas 3rd brother behind Britain. Besides how accurate are the 25% figures you gave for women and children dead ever hear of the lovely word propaganda? Are the Israelis right to bomb the Lebanon? Who knows? Were the Hesbala right to capture Israeli soldiers who knows.

It is tragic when innocent lives are lost but protesting will get you nowhere in fairness. If they wont listen to the UN they wont listen to a protest.

Akrasia

Check out Indymedia.ie. There is an events section on the left hand side of the homepage or here: http://www.indymedia.ie/events&type_id=5

there is a national protest organised for the 29th
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77452
2pm at the Garden of Rememberance.

Morlar

Akrasia wrote:

Check out Indymedia.ie. There is an events section on the left hand side of the homepage or here: http://www.indymedia.ie/events&type_id=5

there is a national protest organised for the 29th
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77452
2pm at the Garden of Rememberance.

Thanks for that - I f***ing hate indymedia and am not looking forward to having to read their site - but I will do that later to see when /where its on and if not working that day will attend.

PS is it just my imagination or have a LOT of people registered accounts in the last few days purely to tow the pro- israel party line ? ? Anyone else noticed that ?

tallaghtoutlaws

Morlar wrote:

PS is it just my imagination or have a LOT of people registered accounts in the last few days purely to tow the pro- israel party line ? ? Anyone else noticed that ?

Eh no i signed up to boards for other reasons but came across this post besides people have a right to their opinion and you should really mind your own business as to why people signed up. So what if someone is pro or anti israel their choice I am neither anyway. Same ol same ol. There will be many more conflicts like it.

Akrasia

Morlar wrote:

Thanks for that - I f***ing hate indymedia and am not looking forward to having to read their site - but I will do that later to see when /where its on and if not working that day will attend.

PS is it just my imagination or have a LOT of people registered accounts in the last few days purely to tow the pro- israel party line ? ? Anyone else noticed that ?

just one note to the wise, this is a demonstration run by the so called 'Irish anti war movement' which is really kittle more than a front organisation for the SWP and they haven't got the trust of the rest of the anti war movement due to their past behaviour. So if you do decide to go, be aware that they will try to recruit you and sell you their newspaper. There probably are vigils outside the israeli embassey every night this week, if you want to head down there, you'd be more than welcome.

Akrasia

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Eh no i signed up to boards for other reasons but came across this post besides people have a right to their opinion and you should really mind your own business as to why people signed up. So what if someone is pro or anti israel their choice I am neither anyway. Same ol same ol. There will be many more conflicts like it.

not if israel push it too far. They have hundreds of nuclear weapons and if they feel under mortal threat, do you really think they won't be tempted to use them? Israeli actions have the potential to ignite a third world war or worse.

Morlar

Akrasia wrote:

if you do decide to go, be aware that they will try to recruit you and sell you their newspaper.

Thanks for the heads up - there is a half a snowflakes chance in hell of that ever happening - but cheers anyway. I probably will head on over to the israeli embassy too - cheers.

Morlar

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

you should really mind your own business as to why people signed up. S

Thanks but with respect I am capable of deciding what is relevant and what isnt for myself and if I want to ask a question/get a 2nd opinion I will.

Bookee

I've noticed !

gandalf

Your best means of protest is to stop buying Isreali produce and tell the manager of your supermarket that you are. If they don't have a choice of a non isreali produce ask them to.

I'll be watching what I buy very closely from now onwards.

Bards

I've been doing the same for a number of years now, refusing to buy israelli produce.

When the whole international community except for the US condems their actions and then deliberatley bomb the UN lookout in Lebanon... I think the whole country should do likewise and stop buying israelli produce

Morlar

I will be boycotting them too - does anyone have a link to a site that lists their most popular products sold in europe ? Any re-branding of items going on ? I read somewhere that (I think) it was '7 29 XXXXXXXXXXXXX' the start numbers of bar code items that originate in israel (open to correction on that one).

PS bookee - I will shut up now !

*Just came across this - while looking up boycott israel

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/pressdesc.asp?id=668&rumor=true

which says :

You may have seen a rumor or web posting about Howard Schultz, Starbucks and the Israeli army. The rumor and web posting are factually inaccurate. Neither Chairman Howard Schultz nor Starbucks fund or support the Israeli Army. Starbucks is a non-political organization and does not support individual political causes.



Contact Information:
Starbucks Coffee Company
(206) 318-7100
press@starbucks.com

tallaghtoutlaws

Akrasia wrote:

not if israel push it too far. They have hundreds of nuclear weapons and if they feel under mortal threat, do you really think they won't be tempted to use them? Israeli actions have the potential to ignite a third world war or worse.

You seriously believe they will use Nuclear Weapons. They have no need to use nuclear weapons they will keep hammering away until one of two things happen the Hasbala give up and surrender or they wipe every single one out. The Israelis are smarter than most people give them credit for I do not condon or follow there actions but They are supported heavily by the likes of the US and UK and in no certain terms will they let Israel launch any Nuclear weapon as for 3rd world war come on this confrontation has been going on for centuries its just now with the influence of media that fills ideas into the heads of onlookers.

Bookee

Morlar wrote:

PS bookee - I will shut up now !

Thanks... !
But I don't think Ireland gets a HUGE Amount of "stuff" from them - US Boycott would be the way to go..... ! But, honestly, I believe that would be too difficult!

Bookee

Morlar wrote:

PS is it just my imagination or have a LOT of people registered accounts in the last few days purely to tow the pro- israel party line ? ? Anyone else noticed that ?

Akrasia

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

You seriously believe they will use Nuclear Weapons. They have no need to use nuclear weapons they will keep hammering away until one of two things happen the Hasbala give up and surrender or they wipe every single one out. The Israelis are smarter than most people give them credit for I do not condon or follow there actions but They are supported heavily by the likes of the US and UK and in no certain terms will they let Israel launch any Nuclear weapon as for 3rd world war come on this confrontation has been going on for centuries its just now with the influence of media that fills ideas into the heads of onlookers.

I don't believe they will use nuclear weapons to defeat hezbollah, but in a worst case scenario, if they end up in a war against all of their neighbours and if they look as if they are about to be overwhelmed, then i beleive they will use their Nukes. And if it ever gets to that point, the U.S. or U.K. wouldn't be able to stop them even if they tried.

Dr_Teeth

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

You seriously believe they will use Nuclear Weapons. They have no need to use nuclear weapons they will keep hammering away until one of two things happen the Hasbala give up and surrender or they wipe every single one out. The Israelis are smarter than most people give them credit for

Hezbollah will never give up, and no guerilla army with the support of its population has ever been wiped out by conventional warfare. The Israelis are completely retarded if they think their bombing campaign will do anything other than create more hate for them in the region.

Hell, even the Israelis aren't saying they're going to wipe out Hezbollah - they talk about 'downgrading' - and even that isn't working. They've dropped so many LGBs on Lebanon that they've had to order more from the US, and yet every day more Katyushas than ever before are hitting Israeli towns.

The Romans had it right - you either totally annihilate your enemy or you make them your friends. Nothing else works.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

I do not condon or follow there actions but They are supported heavily by the likes of the US and UK and in no certain terms will they let Israel launch any Nuclear weapon as for 3rd world war come on this confrontation has been going on for centuries its just now with the influence of media that fills ideas into the heads of onlookers.

This Arab/Israeli conflict has been going on for 60 years actually. As for a 3rd World War, I don't see that happening at all.. there aren't enough other countries around the world with a real vested interest in what happens in Israel, apart from the moral outrage.

Sand

Yeah, hold a protest. Thatll show em.

Honestly, do you really think Israel cares at all about some protest by the usual suspects when Hizbullah fired 150 rockets at their towns only yesterday? Are anti-Israeli (the flag of convenience is updated as appropriate, but the "analysis" is consistent) protests in Ireland really all that remarkable that theyre even worthy of comment? These protests are more to do with the protestors needs than anything else.

Bookee

.. Is that your way of saying you won't be attending ....?


-spelling, oops !

Dirk Gently

Sand wrote:

Yeah, hold a protest. Thatll show em.

What do you suggest people do? No doubt you feel anyone who doesn't agree with you should just shut up and do nothing because in your opinion they are wrong.

Sand wrote:

Are anti-Israeli (the flag of convenience is updated as appropriate, but the "analysis" is consistent) protests in Ireland really all that remarkable that theyre even worthy of comment?

Once again you equate any kind of protest against the slaughter in Lebanon as being anti-Israeli. Did it never cross your mind that the protests might be anti- indiscriminate killings regardless of who pulls the trigger? You seem to always come down hard on the Provo apologists, and rightly so imo but I don’t think it's a principled stance on your part, but rather you picked sides and chose to justify those you support and demonise those you don’t for carrying out the same agenda.

In your opinion Israel is acting in self defence and you justify their actions in Lebanon by dismissing any protesters as ... the usual suspects. I think you are constrained by association, where by you behave in a reactionary manor, automatically siding with those opposite to the groups you don’t like.

How are you any better than those Provo apologists who justify indiscriminate bombings killing innocent people because as they see it, it is an act of self defense and that the IRA were provoked into doing such things?

Indiscriminate bombings and war crimes are wrong regardless of whether they are carried out by the IRA, Hezbollah or the IDF. Some people choose to justify the IRA as a liberation movement acting in self defence and the same blind delusion is employed by people who chose to justify the same actions carried out by a state.

Terrorism is wrong full stop, regardless of whether it is carried out by a small underground movement or by an overt state force.

LordSutch

joseph dawton wrote:

I am outraged by the attacks on Lebanon, they go far beyond what would be a measured response against Hezbollah. I for one would like to protest at the Israeli embassy, does anyone know of anything organised?

All I know is that I shall be offering my solidarity with good the people of Israel & the Lebannon over the coming months.

(But I shall NOT protest outside the Israeli Embassy), they are not to blame!

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Yeah, hold a protest. Thatll show em.

Honestly, do you really think Israel cares at all about some protest by the usual suspects when Hizbullah fired 150 rockets at their towns only yesterday? Are anti-Israeli (the flag of convenience is updated as appropriate, but the "analysis" is consistent) protests in Ireland really all that remarkable that theyre even worthy of comment? These protests are more to do with the protestors needs than anything else.

You know, some people are actually appalled and condemn Israeli slaughter of innocent people.

It is obvious that Israel cares not a jot what anybody, who has a concern for civilians, think.

joseph dawton

joseph dawton wrote:

I am outraged by the attacks on Lebanon, they go far beyond what would be a measured response against Hezbollah. I for one would like to protest at the Israeli embassy, does anyone know of anything organised?

joseph dawton wrote:

How mature of you, I thought this was a forum for debate not for childish harranging of other people. Do you think bombing the **** out of civilians (25% of dead are children) is ok!

If you were so against the war and the deaths caused you would be calling for a march against both Israel and Hezbollah. But I doubt you would ever consider that Hezbollah was responsible for any deaths... The problem with the anti-war front is that while countries/nations (like Israel, or the US) are targeted its rare that there are marches organised against the terrorist/resistance groups that also kill.

While there is huge debate about Israel its amazing that people rarely complain about Hezbollah's involvement in causing this whole conflict (admittedly Israel's reaction has overshowed the other attacks, but still... ). Even if you believe that Hezbollah just provided Israel with an excuse to invade Lebanon, they still did choose lebanon to lauch their attacks from.

A Dub in Glasgo

Hizbollah do not enjoy the 'support of the world'

Israel enjoy the 'apparant' support of the world including the US, UK & Ireland. It is right that this should be highlighted and condemned. Israel are carrying out Blitzkreig against civilians, why should people support that?

Israel doesn't have the support of the world. Its just that they're not applying punishments to them. Very few countries have approved of the Israeli response if any. A few started to but once the massive civilian casualties started occuring that support dried up.

However Hizbollah have support in that people will criticise Israel without talking all that much about Hizbollah's killings.... Have you managed to complain about Hizbollah using Lebanon firstly to launch attacks, and secondly that the attacks occured at all? I doubt it.

As for Ireland, I noticed aid went to Lebanon and Palestine. I didn't see any aid going to Israeli civilians for the damage/deaths caused by Hizbollah's rockets..... Not really support, would you say?

Sgt. Sensible

Deleted User wrote:

As for Ireland, I noticed aid went to Lebanon and Palestine. I didn't see any aid going to Israeli civilians for the damage/deaths caused by Hizbollah's rockets..... Not really support, would you say?

Perhaps that's something to do with the perception that Israel is killing a heck of lot more people and destroying a heck of a lot more stuff in Lebanon than Hezbollah are in Israel. There might also be the perception that Israel are undoubtedly the aggressors here, attacking an almost defenceless nation.

Sgt. Sensible

clown bag wrote:

What do you suggest people do?

I think his answer to everything is violence, overwhelming violence.

dvdgangster

I think its pretty obvious to any perceptive observer that this is pure and utter terrorism from israel, their acts are war crimes under the geneva convention. They have both military and financial aid coming in from america, so its america who is funding the terrorists.

I suppose all we can hope for is Iran to get nuclear capabilties and be a force for stability in the region, offsetting Israels power.

Check out aljazzera.com for some half decent news

Manic Moran

I think that's the first time I've ever heard a nuclear-armed Iran referred to as a 'force for stability in the region.'

NTM

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote:

Israel doesn't have the support of the world. Its just that they're not applying punishments to them. Very few countries have approved of the Israeli response if any. A few started to but once the massive civilian casualties started occuring that support dried up.

However Hizbollah have support in that people will criticise Israel without talking all that much about Hizbollah's killings.... Have you managed to complain about Hizbollah using Lebanon firstly to launch attacks, and secondly that the attacks occured at all? I doubt it.

As for Ireland, I noticed aid went to Lebanon and Palestine. I didn't see any aid going to Israeli civilians for the damage/deaths caused by Hizbollah's rockets..... Not really support, would you say?

In your eyes, in order to criticise Israel for their slaughter, people have to have an equal criticism of Hizbollah. If they do not, it opens people up to allegations from certain individuals (like you) that they are anti-Israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. Sounds very much like whataboutery to me in order to deflect from the criticism of the country you support.

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Perhaps that's something to do with the perception that Israel is killing a heck of lot more people and destroying a heck of a lot more stuff in Lebanon than Hezbollah are in Israel. There might also be the perception that Israel are undoubtedly the aggressors here, attacking an almost defenceless nation.

I'm not going to deny any of that. My point isn't about whether israel is right or wrong. My point is that there is a very much selective stance when it comes to protests. If it was really about the wars or the people dead, these marches would be organised against the terrorist grousp aswell. Which I've Very rarely ever heard any mention of.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

In your eyes, in order to criticise Israel for their slaughter, people have to have an equal criticism of Hizbollah. If they do not, it opens people up to allegations from certain individuals (like you) that they are anti-Israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. Sounds very much like whataboutery to me in order to deflect from the criticism of the country you support.

Nope. I'm not accusing anyone of being anti-israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. I mentioned the lack of protests towards the groups that also do the killing.

As I mention above I find these marches to be very selective. Basically if they've (A nation) caused a higher body count, then they're the ones to complain about. How about marching protesting that the conflict has occured at all placing blame on both Israel & Hizbollah? What would be wrong about that?

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

And they are. I gave my opinion that if people truely cared about the people dying they'd be marching against both parties of the conflict. I didn't say that either one was in the right.

If Israel had created a lesser death toll on civilians than Hizbollah in this conflict would you march about Hizbollah?

Sgt. Sensible

Deleted User wrote:

I'm not going to deny any of that. My point isn't about whether israel is right or wrong. My point is that there is a very much selective stance when it comes to protests. If it was really about the wars or the people dead, these marches would be organised against the terrorist grousp aswell. Which I've Very rarely ever heard any mention of.

If you feel strongly about something, you're free to protest about it. I don't understand people who expect others to protest on their behalf and then complain when nothing happens.

Keano

Nothing wrong with protesting but unless you have thousands with you then someone might take note.

But in my opinion protests generally achieve nothing. It is a shame but thats just the way it is.

zen63

You know, some people are actually appalled and condemn Israeli slaughter of innocent people.

It is obvious that Israel cares not a jot what anybody, who has a concern for civilians, think.

You know, I am actually appalled and condemn Hezbolah for hiding in areas which will cause innocent people to be slaughtered. To think if they didnt hide there, the death toll wouldnt be so high. Using human shields is a bad business - someone should do something about these evil people.

It is obvious that Hezbollah cares not a jot for anybody, who has a concern for civilians, think. Terrible behaviour!

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

If you feel strongly about something, you're free to protest about it. I don't understand people who expect others to protest on their behalf and then complain when nothing happens.

What i never understood is people who protest about a war, protest about the killing involved, and only focus on one side.... I have no problem with people protesting.

I just wonder why people can't be a little more honest and admit that they're protesting that Israel kills more civilians than Hizbollah..........

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

What i never understood is people who protest about a war, protest about the killing involved, and only focus on one side.... I have no problem with people protesting.

I just wonder why people can't be a little more honest and admit that they're protesting that Israel kills more civilians than Hizbollah..........

I think you might have a little bit of a misconception about their protests.

HelterSkelter

Morlar wrote:

I will be boycotting them too - does anyone have a link to a site that lists their most popular products sold in europe ? Any re-branding of items going on ? I read somewhere that (I think) it was '7 29 XXXXXXXXXXXXX' the start numbers of bar code items that originate in israel (open to correction on that one).

PS bookee - I will shut up now !

*Just came across this - while looking up boycott israel

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/pressdesc.asp?id=668&rumor=true

which says :

You may have seen a rumor or web posting about Howard Schultz, Starbucks and the Israeli army. The rumor and web posting are factually inaccurate. Neither Chairman Howard Schultz nor Starbucks fund or support the Israeli Army. Starbucks is a non-political organization and does not support individual political causes.



Contact Information:
Starbucks Coffee Company
(206) 318-7100
press@starbucks.com

Check this out, Starbucks have opened an outlet in Guantanamo Bay...

http://www.labour.ie/ericbyrne/news/20060612151012.html

HelterSkelter

Deleted User wrote:

Israel doesn't have the support of the world. Its just that they're not applying punishments to them. Very few countries have approved of the Israeli response if any. A few started to but once the massive civilian casualties started occuring that support dried up.

And thats why the US provide Israel with weapons then, because they don't support them?

HelterSkelter

In response to the OP's question, there is an anti-war demonstration this weekend, details are on the Labour Party's homepage (BTW, I'm not a labour party supporter, was just reading their site!!)

National Anti-War demonstration:

Saturday, July 29th at 2pm
Assemble at Garden of Remembrance,
Parnell Square,Dublin 2

Speakers to include: Michael D.Higgins TD

bonkey

clown bag wrote:

Once again you equate any kind of protest against the slaughter in Lebanon as being anti-Israeli. Did it never cross your mind that the protests might be anti- indiscriminate killings regardless of who pulls the trigger?

Surely if the protests were against indiscriminate killings, they would be against indiscriminate killings in both Israel and Lebanon.

One can note that the OP is outraged and wishes to protest at the Israeli actions against Lebanon, but has no expressed interest in protesting the launchnig of rockets indiscriminately against the Israeli population.

I believe Israel's actions are unacceptable. I also believe Hizbollah's are. I also believe the inaction of the Lebanese government regardless of its possibility of success are as well. I do not believe that protesting against any one side is productive, worthwhile or neutral.

I won't be buying Chateau Musar (my fave red) any more than I'll be buying Israeli melons. Neither side deserve my support.

jc

Sand

What do you suggest people do? No doubt you feel anyone who doesn't agree with you should just shut up and do nothing because in your opinion they are wrong.

Endorsing actions when I disagree with the views that underly those actions would be rather contradictorary, wouldnt it? I couldnt give a ****e if some rent a mob shows up outside the Israeli embassy for a few hours, blaming Israel for being attacked...Neither will Israel. No ones answered whether they believe Olmerts going to read the news monday mornin going "OMFG, some anti-war/pro hamas/hizbollah arts students in Ireland held a protest - full retreat!!!!!" Olmerts got the reality that Hizbollah are hitting his citizens with rockets and hes being asked to defend them. The usual suspects over here can continue to delude themselves that its all really some evil US-Israeli plot against poor innocent Hizbollah/Hamas.

Jesus, what gets me is these guys pretend theyre the cynics. Im the cynic. They think the US is the omnipotent bad guy. I believe the closest thing to the good guy *is* the US.

Once again you equate any kind of protest against the slaughter in Lebanon as being anti-Israeli.

No I dont. When student protestors march in anger against Hizbollah and Hamas attacks on Israeli civillians then Ill be happy to view them as balanced in their analysis. Otherwise, well, I cant be blamed for calling a spade a spade, can I?

How are you any better than those Provo apologists who justify indiscriminate bombings killing innocent people because as they see it, it is an act of self defense and that the IRA were provoked into doing such things?

SFIRA supporters such as Glasgo would endorse SFIRA actions on the basis that they were carried out by SFIRA. I do not endorse IDF actions on the basis that they were carried out by the IDF (For example, I dont agree with the logic of attacking civillian powerplants for example because A) its prohibited to attack civillian facitilities, and even if power plants are dual use any military facility will have backup generators ), I simply accept they have a right to defend their citizens from attacks launched from South Lebenon by seemingly unchallenged factions within the Lebanese government. So long as the IDF operate within the demands of the GC, whats to condemn/endorse? SFIRA never operated within the boundaries of the GC, they deliberately murdered civillians and left no warning bombs in shopping high streets. Omagh wasnt condemned by the Provos for being "wrong", merely for being strategically inappropriate.

Terrorism is wrong full stop, regardless of whether it is carried out by a small underground movement or by an overt state force.

Maybe the protestors should remind Hizbollah of that whilst theyre out and about? They seem to need the reminder more than most.

You know, some people are actually appalled and condemn Israeli slaughter of innocent people.

Would that include SFIRA supporters Glasgow? Maybe if the IDF wore balaclavas and hired Gerry Adams as their spokesman youd feel more able to endorse their actions...

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

You know, if they need a new defintion of irony, theyll always have the above quote from a supporter of SFIRA...

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand... the master of whataboutery and apologist for civilian slaughter

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Sand... the master of whataboutery and apologist for civilian slaughter

A Dub in Glasgo... banned for two weeks for attacking the poster and not the post (more pertinently not bothering to engage in the discussion at all in favour of that). As it's at least a second offence it'd be a month but I'm feeling charitable. Please avoid a future third offence.

sceptre

Sand banned for a week for close enough to the same behaviour, specifically paragraph 6. Coating an indirect attack in sugar frosting doesn't do much for me.

sceptre

bonkey wrote:

Surely if the protests were against indiscriminate killings, they would be against indiscriminate killings in both Israel and Lebanon.

Obviously given my stated position on this conflict I agree with the above as well as the rest of bonkey's post. I've no sympathy for or interest in any protest that specifically targets one group of idiots firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas while ignoring the other group of idiots firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas.

Sgt. Sensible

bonkey wrote:

I also believe the inaction of the Lebanese government regardless of its possibility of success are as well.

What should they do that doesn't cause the country to descend into civil war again, or earn them an even more intense hammering from Israel.

I won't be buying Chateau Musar (my fave red) any more than I'll be buying Israeli melons.

Hezbollah funded by booze sales?

elivsvonchiaing

Maybe I'm a bit cynical - but really think this war is "permitted" by the US because it makes economic sense to do so.

The idea that a war anywhere is going to affect US economic interests and is not going to be "intervened" lies back in the days of the USSR.

Its not about having an interest in Oil anymore; its about a power vacuum that has existed since the breakup of the USSR.

A unipolar earth - i.e. one economic and politically driven earth, is not going to work when the super-power is perceived to stand back because: there is too much money to be made in armourments; airport security; Islamic widows funds etc...

My belief is this: America created the ultimate Aa'liyah - in the pursuit of an ultimate insurance policy.

America can sit back and relax now as it has for 68 years and worry about oil-prices - and missing plutonium - until the answer emerges - and gives rise to a warming feeling - "It's in éretz"!

This has a converging principle with El-Wuhabism - a lot of educated people bought this in Islam - and I believe it is the real war is going to be waged psychologically.

It doesn't matter who plays for your team, it only matters that you have a team; agree on strategy and are not torn between interests.

I have Islamic neighbours and also muslims in work. In some cases there is a little tension there - and I don't blame them...

The "war machine" is simply feeding an economy that realised its growth from warfare.

What is going on in (by Israel) Lebanon is abhorent. Likewise the conduct of Hesbollah!

It does seem laughable that any of this can be healed by diplomacy - I know ppl in this field including family and know it is populated by too many morons that don't know the following: how to interpret a gesture (culturally); appreciate the fact that everybody doesn't speak x and they are in a country where there are more languages than there are letters in our own alphabet.

<edit - deleted>

Dirk Gently

Sand wrote:

Endorsing actions when I disagree with the views that underly those actions would be rather contradictorary, wouldnt it? ...

That’s fair enough of course. So it’s the cause of the protest you look down on rather than the concept of peaceful protest? It just looked from your other post that you thought any kind of protest about anything was stupid. Often they achieve little or nothing but the alternative is violent opposition. I know you wouldn't approve of that. TBH I think the protests are designed more to put pressure on the Irish Gov to clearly denounce the violence and try to encourage other countries to do so rather than any delusion that the IDF will pay any attention to them. or maybe they are deluded in that they think a democratic government would pay any attention to peaceful opposition. Accountability is supposed to be one of the things that separates a terrorist from a legitimate state army.

Sand wrote:

rent a mob

some anti-war/pro hamas/hizbollah arts students

The usual suspects over here can continue to delude themselves that its all really some evil US-Israeli plot against poor innocent Hizbollah/Hamas.

student protestors ...

This is what I mean when I said I thought your view was reactionary. You seem to think that anyone protesting is a wooly headed liberal and automatically out of instinct take the opposing view. On the one hand you claim all the protesters see conspiracies everywhere and then you go and label them all as art student Castro lovers. It is possible that their might actually be a few more conservative people with right wing views who are equally appalled and are protesting too. Even a broken clock is wrong twice a day and all that. I think you are looking at the groups leading the protests and deciding that they are wrong specifically because of who the groups protesting are, (or who you think they are).

Sand wrote:

well, I cant be blamed for calling a spade a spade, can I?...

This is what I feel you are not doing tbh.

Sand wrote:

You know, if they need a new defintion of irony, theyll always have the above quote from a supporter of SFIRA...

I agree it is Ironic that RA heads complain about innocent lives been lost in indiscriminate bombings. I also feel its ironic that someone who condemns those very RA heads then lends their support to what they see as justified indiscriminate bombings when carried out by an elected state with an organised army using state of the art weaponry.

both sides of the same coin if you ask me. Both trying to find a rational excuse to condone murder and terrorism by what they see as a legitimate right to self defence.