Waterford; Ireland's Forgotten City

Baby4

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merlante

Yes, the problems is really bad. And our poor profile makes it difficult for us to claim a fair share of public and private investment.

When you get to the heart of it, everything hinges on there being a university in Waterford or not.

Baby4

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Trotter

Baby4 wrote:

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How do you all rate her chances of getting into the Dáil? I dont think her running will give SF enough votes to get in for a start. I think she has new ideas, and that bit of intensity and drive that we really really need. I'd love to see her getting in.

The thing is though, how should she angle her campaign in order to get the numbers she needs?

Baby4

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merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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No, the university issue is different. Get a university and you get radiotherapy, jobs, profile and basically everything; get radiotherapy and you just get radiotherapy.

It doesn't make sense for there to be any other agenda ahead of the university agenda. These days, cities are places where you can go to university, and get a job when you are finished!

decies

Baby4 wrote:

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You make very good points there.
I agree we seemed to be way behind the rest of the country and i dont even think we are the best in the south east.
Anybody ever notice how many on train from dublin get off at kilkenny,a couple of straglers are left to get off at waterford!!
By all accounts a big shop centre is being built at the kilkenny railway station,and i have heard at the weekend that marks and spencers will come to kilkenny and not waterford because of all the delays.
When was the last big factory announced in waterford,even cashel got 400 jobs today.
I do think that are local politicions leave a lot to be desired even when they got a ministers or shadow ministers job they make big cock ups,
Think we need keith barry to front a major and vibrant advertisment campaign,good god even belfast looks attractive now.
Galway has i think 13 days of a art festival on,before seven days of the galway races!!!!!!
We have two and a half days of spraoi,we need to think bigger,better,and longer festivals.
Utiliseing that river would be a start and perhaps the best visual thing in the city the marina!!!!!!
Freguent river trips for tourists and the like.
permanent ferris wheel on north wharf for the kids.
Utilise the park more go karts or something,and not the skate boards please.>>>
More and better street acts all over the city during the summer and not just in red square,these to be licenesed.
Please no more bad sax on the street

kitty_kilkenny

Be careful what you wish for...
I grew up in Dublin and left there in 1993 to go and live in Kilkenny. Over the past 13 years I've seen real greed and bad planning destroy parts of it. At the weekends, it's over run with drunken stags and hens from Dublin and the UK.
I recently bought a house in Waterford (wanted to be near the sea), and it reminds me of Kilkenny when I first went there. It has a lovely atmosphere, with a slower pace of life and it's not over run with tourists. Obviously I wouldn't like to see Waterford left behind in terms of public spending, but nor do I want to see it enter into the all consuming 'shopping mall' way of life I have seen emerging elsewhere.
Waterford clearly has it's own sense of identity and that was really apparent last year during the fantastic Tall Ships festival. Festivals can often be an excuse for the local vintners to try to sell more product - throwing on a couple of gigs in the back of a pub does not make a festival. Tall Ships was a true celebration of the sea and it was one of the reasons I decided to move here.
sorry for ranting on, I'm fed up of the Celtic Tiger eating everything around it, I want a simpler way of life...

Baby4

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deisemum

I like Waterford city (originally from Galway) and as an outsider I can really see how Waterford is overlooked compared to most other cities. I'd love to see it develop a lot more but not end up with the gridlock problems that Galway has.

From a tourism point of view Waterford needs to start highlighting it's hidden gems, they're so well hidden that after nearly 10 years here I don't know of much that's available to visitors apart from Waterford Crystal, Reginald's Tower (that hasn't much in it) Lismore, Tramore and the coastal drive.

It needs more specific places to visit that have more than just scenic views or walks since they're available in most parts of the country.

Here's just one example of what could attract people to the area. If someone/syndicate with money opened a theme park like Oakwood in Waterford I reckon they'd do very well. It would certainly attract people from all parts of Ireland and perhaps Wales. There are lots of people heading to Oakwood every day from Ireland.

No doubt other attractions would attract people if only we had them.

Cosmonaut

I lived in Waterford all my life, and have been part of numerous local groups, from Spraoi, to Waterford Music Network, and even skateboarder groups trying to get a skatepark built.

My house used to be on the outskirts of the city limits, and after 15 years of amazing development, it is now considered to be neerer the city than most.

I dont see what all the fuss is about, who cares if Limerick gets all the spotlight. We are a city that has nearly doubled in size in 20 years, has a much better infrastructure (the Quays, the north Quays, outer ring road) and much bigger college than we did before, and we have bernifited as much, if not more than most cities with the economy boom.

I agree with kitty_killkenny.
We are advancing at exactly the correct speed for safe, controlled expansion.

Oakwood in Waterford -- are u joking? Waterford is not a tourist dependand city, and would like to stay that way for obvious reasons that most cities do.

Tramores problem has nothing to do with development money. Its the hub of most organised crime and coke dealing in the South East and has a huge number of non working non-nationals living there. Its a dead town for 8 months of the years (because of my last point) and makes up for it when half of dublin comes down for a holiday (in the worst beach in the south east).

Tourism is not what we need.
Lets not be greedy, the city is doing absolutley fine, and has benifited from the economy boom more than most cities. Even if "Osbournes; My First World Map" shows Limerick and Galway, and not Waterford.

Baby4

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merlante

The difficulty is that Waterford is not a city in isolation. We can only garner the best resources, including hospitals, roads, universities, etc. if we maintain our place in the Irish urban hierarchy.

Currently Waterford is the fifth largest of 5 cities and regional capital of the south east. This is a reasonable position from which to argue for services. If other cities and towns progress, and Waterford is left behind, then this will change.

I'd hate to thing of Waterford becoming peripheral after almost 1,100 years of being to the fore. The problem is that success is relative. A city of 50,000 people is tiny in most parts of the world. In Ireland it's large, and it's enough to be a regional capital. Our success has to be on par with other Irish cities. That is an unfortunate requirement to be placed on us; in effect we have no choice.

Waterford has doubled in physical size, yes, but not in population terms. It has increased by maybe 25% in 15 years, compared with about 35% in Limerick or 70% in Galway. We are being left behind by other cities and we are being rapidly joined in population terms by large towns -- that is really bad for our future. The largest town is still maybe 15,000 smaller, but are increasing fast: the likes of Dundalk, Drogheda and Bray, etc.

Baby4

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merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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It's not that there is no hope, far from it, but people have to realise that there is a world outside Waterford that can't be ignored, and that some battles have to be won.

I would be pretty confident that if WIT were to be upgraded within the next 10 years, Waterford could compete successfully. Otherwise we'll be fighting for every damn thing, like radiotherapy or whatever, and we'll be grouped with places like Sligo, which are a lot smaller than Waterford. That's the worst thing really, that Waterford be seen as a place that is smaller than it is. This is currently the case, unfortunately.

Baby4

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merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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Funny how Waterford people just sit and take that isin't it? If any other constituency was being frustrated by not having one single resource and a minister flippantly said, "your grand, you don't need it," there would be all out war. There should have been a protest held in Dublin straight after that announcement.

Waterford asks for things, half expected the answer to be no, and always takes the no. This is a wonderful sort of constituency for the government -- you don't have to give them **** all. If it was Kerry or Kilkenny or one of those uppity counties there'd be demands made, and riots on the streets if those demands weren't met.

Baby4

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Roen

Ahhhhh Waterford people, the silent chorus in a Greek tragedy.

road_high

merlante wrote:

Funny how Waterford people just sit and take that isin't it? If any other constituency was being frustrated by not having one single resource and a minister flippantly said, "your grand, you don't need it," there would be all out war. There should have been a protest held in Dublin straight after that announcement.

Waterford asks for things, half expected the answer to be no, and always takes the no. This is a wonderful sort of constituency for the government -- you don't have to give them **** all. If it was Kerry or Kilkenny or one of those uppity counties there'd be demands made, and riots on the streets if those demands weren't met.

Wtf- Kilkenny an 'uppity' county!!!? We get treated like crap by this govt too you know; the fact they point blank refuse to give the south east/Waterford a university/decent infrastructure/radiotherapy affects us equally too you know.
Kilkenny is only keeping it's head above water thanks to its fairly central location and what locals have done- sweet af to do with what the government has (or more appropriately) hasn't done for this constituency.

Baby4

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Roen

Simply that we are probably the most apolitical people I know of.
I couldn't agree more with most of the points made above, however if anything is to be done about it people will have to get up off their arses and do something.
I think someone on the Waterford forum once stated that you get the government you deserve. That is so very true. As long as us Waterford people live up to our tag of Déise (gentle people) then bugger all will happen. Even if a few progressive thinking people banded together the majority will, as I said above, remain silent.

merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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One high profile mistake, the e-voting machines. Which were already used IN A DAIL ELECTION by his predecessor (Dempsey) is 4 constituencies. I personally believe he was told to quietly take the fall for that one, and this is what he did. (Although he did get himself into trouble in the first place.)

On the back of this one mistake, which was a mistake at least shared with his predecessor, a complete hatchet job was conducted against the Waterford minister to weaken his power base and render him impotent. The e-voting thing was blown out of all proportion -- compare to Michael Martin's already forgotten robbing of pensioners scandal.

Next they speculated on who the man was sleeping with, who he hired, how they were hired, how much they were paid, whether he gave them free holidays or not. Two reports were commissioned to investigate his hiring of one of his staff. One had no complaints, the other advised a couple of changes to the hiring procedures and that was the end of that.

Cullen was severely damaged as a political force after these allegations, unlike in Cork or elsewhere, his own constituency was never likely to support him.

You can say, ah yeah, but the guy is this and that. There's no smoke without fire, etc. etc. The point is that you could make similar allegations against any of them -- the point is why was Cullen targeted? For me, it was a hatchet job, pure and simple.

The result is that while the minister in Kerry can spend millions in Kerry and devote a huge percentage of the national tourism funds there, the minister in Waterford gets hammered for securing funding for park and ride for the Tall Ships.

Says it all really.

Baby4

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merlante

mfitzy wrote:

Wtf- Kilkenny an 'uppity' county!!!? We get treated like crap by this govt too you know; the fact they point blank refuse to give the south east/Waterford a university/decent infrastructure/radiotherapy affects us equally too you know.
Kilkenny is only keeping it's head above water thanks to its fairly central location and what locals have done- sweet af to do with what the government has (or more appropriately) hasn't done for this constituency.

That's because Kilkenny spends too much of its time fighting for things that are going for Waterford, instead of co-operating with Waterford.

Examples of the uppity behaviour I mentioned was trying to get the Waterford Regional Hospital moved to Kilkenny! Causing previous university campaigns to fail by insisting that the university be situated in Kilkenny. And in fairness to ye, and ability to promote yourselves well outside of your county. I mention the first two incidents because it illustrates that even though Kilkenny is only 40% of the size of Waterford, it has often had the same amount of clout.

It takes a fair amount of uppitiness or whatever you call it to play that sort of game. Waterford could do with a bit of it. Also, compare Clonmel to Kilkenny: both towns of more or less the same size, but Kilkenny has a much better reputation and secured hub status in the spatial strategy when Clonmel got no designation. And so on.

merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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Ah sure, Cullen is probably not well liked anywhere, but he's not the worst of them. There's a few dozey ministers there that would lose their life if the media looked at them with half the scrutiny they gave to Cullen. It's the quiet ones that are wasting most of the money I reckon, building rocket ships in Leitrim, etc. I can't think of one real piece of pro-Waterford corruption poor Cullen has been able to pull off.

Ah no harm to bang these ideas about. Just don't blindly repeat everything you hear, because you might have to back it up.

road_high

merlante wrote:

That's because Kilkenny spends too much of its time fighting for things that are going for Waterford, instead of co-operating with Waterford.

Examples of the uppity behaviour I mentioned was trying to get the Waterford Regional Hospital moved to Kilkenny! Causing previous university campaigns to fail by insisting that the university be situated in Kilkenny. And in fairness to ye, and ability to promote yourselves well outside of your county. I mention the first two incidents because it illustrates that even though Kilkenny is only 40% of the size of Waterford, it has often had the same amount of clout.

It takes a fair amount of uppitiness or whatever you call it to play that sort of game. Waterford could do with a bit of it. Also, compare Clonmel to Kilkenny: both towns of more or less the same size, but Kilkenny has a much better reputation and secured hub status in the spatial strategy when Clonmel got no designation. And so on.

Oh god hear we go once again....I have not heard one local politician (apart from one Carlow one) say KK should get a uni over Waterford or made statements like 'move the regional hosp' up to Kilkenny.That's nonsense.I myself have actually signed a Waterford led petition for a university.
Can you please be more specific on the previous university campaigns you say the people of KK blocked???
Here's one local future TD that supports it clearly:
http://www.johnpaulphelan.com/read_press.php?PressID=101

And when exactly have we had the same amount of clout?- it's been a generation since we had a senior minister in Jim Gibbons, and it shows. Lucky for Waterford theyve had Cullen for the last year and I don't begrudge them it one bit- it has to be good for the region in my view to have representation at cabinet level.

Wohoo Hub Status under the NSS, like that means anything in fairness- the NSS is yet another governemnt failure and attempt to hoodwink voters into thinking theyre actaully doing something meaningful for the regions.

KK has a percieved better repuation due to the hard work and commitment of a few in the local civic and business community, certainly not down to favouritism shown to us by government.
When you really look at it clinically, there is in fact little concrete amjor things like a college or regional hosp you can point to in Kilkenny.It is fast becoming another souless outpost of Dublin like every other town in Leinster.

And yes, if we had a senior minister that oversaw one of the biggest wastes of taxpayers money and was embroiled in a controversy involving awarding of lucrative govt PR contracts to close personal friends I would be one of the first to criticise them. It's not because he is from Waterford thew rest of the country dislike/distrust him- it is for the reasons I have just outlined. There is no anti-Waterford conspiracy, singling Cullen out as incompetent- the rest are just as bad too.

Baby4

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merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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Most of them have a skeleton on the closet... Cullen has a thoroughly ransacked closet.

I think maybe there were only something like 2 bidders for the job, so all things being equal she had a 50/50 chance anyway -- not sure about that. In any case, I'd say there were few enough Waterford PR agents hired during the long years when Waterford had no minister... Her career was all but ruined incidentally by the scandal, or at least set back, by all accounts. She's now chairman/woman/person/unit of the chamber of commerce, iirc.

That's not to excuse petty corruption, if that's what it was, but it's rife everywhere in this country... And two reports did back him up after all.

As for Cullen being a crook. That hardly seems fair. What has he stolen for himself?

kano476

Cosmonaut wrote:

Tramores problem has nothing to do with development money. Its the hub of most organised crime and coke dealing in the South East and has a huge number of non working non-nationals living there.

eh? lol first ive heard of this! where the hell did you get that out of!? I honestly cant understand where the town has got this rep from.

leave the tramafricans out of this too, theyre nice people!

kitty_kilkenny

Tell you what, I'd put money on this. When the Motorway from Dublin to Waterford is finished and the new bridge is built, the Dubs will really discover that there is a Waterford beyond Tramore, they'll be down here buying up property and ruining the coastline as they have done to Wexford and Connemara (known as Connemara 4, as it's all owned by the Dublin hoi poloi).
They'll push the price of property up so that locals won't be able to buy in the area they grew up in.
I for one don't want Waterford to become just another holiday destination for weekenders in their SUVs.
And speaking of Tramore, I normally swim in Dunmore East, but for a change went to Tramore beach last week, I had to get out of the water because some idiot started showing off on a jet ski and scaring the swimmers. There doesn't seem to be any safety measures in place there - Whats the story?!
Jet skis are banned in County Clare this year...

Minto

Cosmonaut wrote:

the worst beach in the south east

sorry now totally off topic, but what is up with Tramore beach (besides a bit, ok a lot of pollution)? it's a great beach to go for a swim (infact i'm just back from a swim down there now) and it's known all over the country for its surf!

Baby4

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merlante

Responded to this before, but something went wrong...

mfitzy wrote:

Oh god hear we go once again....I have not heard one local politician (apart from one Carlow one) say KK should get a uni over Waterford or made statements like 'move the regional hosp' up to Kilkenny.That's nonsense.I myself have actually signed a Waterford led petition for a university.

Believe it or not, about 2 years ago a Kilkenny TD came on WLR suggesting that the WRH be moved to Kilkenny! Can't remember the name, but I'm sure someone will remember.

That's pretty upitty given the hospital is actually built and in situ.

mfitzy wrote:

Can you please be more specific on the previous university campaigns you say the people of KK blocked???
Here's one local future TD that supports it clearly:
http://www.johnpaulphelan.com/read_press.php?PressID=101

Fair enough, a close relative of mine was on the Waterford University Action group around 1990, and he tells me that one of the reasons for the failure to get a university then was that the Kilkenny contingent that they got involved were too interested in getting this proposed university situated in Kilkenny, and a location could not be agreed on.

For a town not even half the size of Waterford, that was pretty upitty behaviour, for lack of a better word.

I'd like to think that those days are being us now.

mfitzy wrote:

And when exactly have we had the same amount of clout?- it's been a generation since we had a senior minister in Jim Gibbons, and it shows. Lucky for Waterford theyve had Cullen for the last year and I don't begrudge them it one bit- it has to be good for the region in my view to have representation at cabinet level.

According to the Phoenix in the News & Star (not a liar, whatever else you might think of him), the WRH would have gone to Kilkenny, except for the fact that the only other Waterford minister we've had, Austin Deasy, threatened to resign from the cabinet if it didn't go to Waterford.

Considering Waterford is by far the largest centre in the south east, this shows that Kilkenny had some clout back in those days. In fact as part of a compromise to Kilkenny, the south eastern health board was established in Kilkenny.

I was listening to some national radio station a while back where a Waterford man was making a case for a university, amongst other things, and he mentioned that Waterford, being the regional capital, blaa, blaa... The presenter then asked him, so Kilkenny have actually accepted that then, that Waterford is the capital? This comment shows clearly that, in the eyes of many, Kilkenny had as much clout as Waterford back in the day, for a much lower population.

mfitzy wrote:

Wohoo Hub Status under the NSS, like that means anything in fairness- the NSS is yet another governemnt failure and attempt to hoodwink voters into thinking theyre actaully doing something meaningful for the regions.

Fair enough. But compare yourselves with Clonmel, nobody is even promising them any future prosperity. Clonmel seems to be a quiet sort of place, like Waterford (was) in miniature.

mfitzy wrote:

KK has a percieved better repuation due to the hard work and commitment of a few in the local civic and business community, certainly not down to favouritism shown to us by government.
When you really look at it clinically, there is in fact little concrete amjor things like a college or regional hosp you can point to in Kilkenny.It is fast becoming another souless outpost of Dublin like every other town in Leinster.

Yeah, but people work hard in Waterford too. I think that Kilkenny just don't take no for an answer as much. Some of the rhetoric coming out of Kilkenny regarding the boundary extension, for example, would make people think twice about upsetting them.

And yeah, regional colleges weren't a big deal back in the day, but I'm sure Carlow are very glad to have an IT now. Kilkenny should benefit in some way from a university of the south east. But even regarding the latest university proposal, I hear that Kilkenny were asking for the IT department to go to Kilkenny, which is a bit much given that IT is one of WIT biggest strengths, which presumably they knew. (WIT have just built an IT building on a new campus recently iirc.) So they had some neck to be making noises about wanting that.

As for a regional hospital, that is in the largest regional centre which is where it should be. Although people still have to travel to St. Lukes for certain treatments (e.g. eye treatments), which I find odd, considering it's only supposed to be a general hospital. So I think Kilkenny punches above its weight here also.

mfitzy wrote:

And yes, if we had a senior minister that oversaw one of the biggest wastes of taxpayers money and was embroiled in a controversy involving awarding of lucrative govt PR contracts to close personal friends I would be one of the first to criticise them. It's not because he is from Waterford thew rest of the country dislike/distrust him- it is for the reasons I have just outlined. There is no anti-Waterford conspiracy, singling Cullen out as incompetent- the rest are just as bad too.

I was not so much defending Cullen as I was pointing out the fact that other ministers, who might have more to hide, get a lot less media attention. This is because they have more friends in high places and their constituencies are fully behind them.

In any case, he was cleared of PR contract thing.

road_high

So you reckon we should have to travel to Waterford for everything simply because it's the largest urban centre in the south east.In fact, when you look at the catchement area of St. Lukes in say a 40/50 mile radius you will get a bigger population than same surrounding Waterford.It also is the general hosp for two counties, plus a bit of south Laois and Kildare.

Did the Regional Hosp. go to KK-NO, Deasy obviously got his way then didn't he?
Did a university go here instead of Waterford-NO.

You're accusing KK of gaining things at Waterfords expense when in fact we never did.
If you ask me, this all healthy competition anayway, keeps both areas on their toes!

Baby4

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DéiseGirl

kano476 wrote:

eh? lol first ive heard of this! where the hell did you get that out of!? I honestly cant understand where the town has got this rep from.

leave the tramafricans out of this too, theyre nice people!

First I've heard of it too, but then again, I'd say the place has really gone to the dogs since my dad retired from the Guards

Baby4

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merlante

mfitzy wrote:

So you reckon we should have to travel to Waterford for everything simply because it's the largest urban centre in the south east.In fact, when you look at the catchement area of St. Lukes in say a 40/50 mile radius you will get a bigger population than same surrounding Waterford.It also is the general hosp for two counties, plus a bit of south Laois and Kildare.

Did the Regional Hosp. go to KK-NO, Deasy obviously got his way then didn't he?
Did a university go here instead of Waterford-NO.

You're accusing KK of gaining things at Waterfords expense when in fact we never did.
If you ask me, this all healthy competition anayway, keeps both areas on their toes!

Okay, I'm not trying to annoy anybody here. I was just trying to make the point that some counties shout louder than others, and really Kilkenny have benefited from shouting loud.

Kilkenny are on the map in Dublin more than Waterford. It does very well in tourism, and I know Kilkenny is very well laid out and has a nice castle, etc., but Waterford is not a wasteland either.

My thinking on hospitals is this: you have some services that you want in every locale, namely maternity (I know what they're doing!), A&E, normal injuries, overnight monitoring or whatever, patient recovery from surgery, simple surgeries, etc. However, other, more costly, specialist services cannot be provided in every locale, but should be provided on a regional basis, in a regional hospital. Generally speaking I think such services should all be in one hospital, otherwise you might have a situation where a patient is travelling between two hospitals on a continuous basis to treat two slightly different but interrelated problems. (e.g. going to WRH for chemotherapy and going to Dublin for radiotherapy)

Then there are those treatments that are very new or very specialist and they should be provided only by one or two hospitals in the state. No use the WRH getting a slice of that pie, might as well have those treatments in Dublin or Cork and keep them together for consistency.

Just my opinion.

btw. Your population argument is moot. There are more people living in a 40/50 miles radius of Kildare town than Dublin city centre (because of course Dublin city centre is within that radius of Kildare), but most people live in Dublin so that's a better place for specialist hospitals.

There are almost as many people in an 8 mile radius of Waterford city (around 75,000) as there are in the whole of Co. Kilkenny (87,394). More people have to travel for services in Kilkenny than services in Waterford.

The number of people in a 30/40 miles radius of Waterford minus Kilkenny city is probably of a similar number to the number of people in a 30/40 miles radius of Kilkenny minus Waterford city. (Despite the sea being 8 miles south of Waterford.) Waterford is probably a better compromise between South Tipp. and Wexford too. (Particularly roadwise.)

The point I was trying to make is that even though Kilkenny did not get many of the things it was after, it was in the running, which says a lot considering its population. That's all I was trying to say. Fair enough it has needs the same as Waterford has.

I don't think this is healthy competition between Waterford and Kilkenny. Imagine splitting Cork up into four counties. Do you think that would increase or reduce that region? If they co-operated, it might, but if they spent all their time fighting they'd get nowhere. We need to compete with other regions, not each other. Lets not make the fact that counties in the south east are geographically smaller a handicap for us in the modern age.

I don't know what your take on the state of the N9 is, but most Waterford people are under the impression that Kilkenny were happy to leave it go. i.e. effectively saboutaged the road.

Anyway, lets not turn this into an out and out Waterford v Kilkenny thread ok. Just making a few observations.

merlante

D&#233 wrote: »

First I've heard of it too, but then again, I'd say the place has really gone to the dogs since my dad retired from the Guards

By the sound of it I'd say there's a few guards being forced into 'early retirement' out there now.

Shore I hare tis like LAye out dare now!

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

If you ask me, this all healthy competition anayway, keeps both areas on their toes!

This is not healthy at all. We should be pulling together and marketing ourselves as one region with ONE voice. not a bunch of seperate couinties bickering over who got what.

Personally I think it was great for the S.E that Cashel got 400 jobs during the week

Baby4

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Trotter

mfitzy wrote:

If you ask me, this all healthy competition anayway, keeps both areas on their toes!

This is the problem. It keeps us on our toes? It distracts our energies from trying to promote the region. Sure leave Waterford and KK off, they'll fight among themselves while the rest unite and get things done.

Great idea there.. its far from healthy competition.

Schuhart

mfitzy wrote:

I have not heard one local politician (apart from one Carlow one) say KK should get a uni over Waterford or made statements like 'move the regional hosp' up to Kilkenny.

I think this is the kind of thing they mean. This person is making his support conditional on a portion of the University having a local, physical presence in Kilkenny. Maybe it would anyway – many Universities have outreach programmes – but that is hardly the point. Blatently flying a local flag like this when the prospect of University status is far from certain does not help the campaign.

We want and need a regional university led by the Waterford Institute which is currently operating as a university in all but name.” Mr Cronin [Fergus Cronin, chairman, Kilkenny Industrial Development Company (KIDCO) ] added. “A physical presence for this university in Kilkenny would be important with a concentration of resources on areas of existing excellence.”

In fairness, this narrow approach is better illustrated by the following story from the Carlow Nationalist, which does seek to undermine the WIT campaign. The case presented is utterly self serving and parochial, and weakens the synergy of the region.

Report recommending Waterford University is rubbished in Carlow

A REPORT recommending the upgrading of Waterford IT to a university has led to staunch criticism from two Carlow officials. County Carlow Chamber of Commerce and Cllr Walter Lacey attacked the report from Goodbody’s feeling it had “no real substance” and its makers, Goodbody’s, had “damaged the independence (of the report) by singling out a particular county”.

<snip>

Cllr Walter Lacey felt the vast majority of arguments favoured a university for the Carlow/Kilkenny region.

“Carlow IT is one the oldest and most progressive in the country,” he said. “In Carlow we also have a second third-level education centre in Saint Patrick’s College. Carlow also has the infrastructure to cater for a university with easy accessibility.

“Why is it assumed that universities must be located in cities? A central location like Carlow would make it attractive to potential students and more accessible than Waterford. It is a nightmare trying to secure accommodation in the larger cities.

“Carlow’s recent boom in building and the provision of specialist student accommodation would make it easier and more attractive for students. I believe Goodbody’s have damaged the independence of their report by singling out a particular county.”

Clearly none of this means that all Kilkenny people and all Carlow people are out to undermine the WIT campaign. But certainly parochial thinking by many ultimately costs the region.

road_high

Schuhart wrote:

I think this is the kind of thing they mean. This person is making his support conditional on a portion of the University having a local, physical presence in Kilkenny. Maybe it would anyway – many Universities have outreach programmes – but that is hardly the point. Blatently flying a local flag like this when the prospect of University status is far from certain does not help the campaign. In fairness, this narrow approach is better illustrated by the following story from the Carlow Nationalist, which does seek to undermine the WIT campaign. The case presented is utterly self serving and parochial, and weakens the synergy of the region. Clearly none of this means that all Kilkenny people and all Carlow people are out to undermine the WIT campaign. But certainly parochial thinking by many ultimately costs the region.

Walter Lacey is a muppet in my view; his opinion doesn't count for much in my eyes..He's a PD and theyre a sinking ship as far as i'm concerned really!

But I thought that guy you mentioned from KK Chamber of Commerce there made a fairly valid point. I mean, Kilkenny is not demanding the whole uni or even a lead role- that would clearly be WIT's role, just a department is all.

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merlante wrote:

Okay, I'm not trying to annoy anybody here. I was just trying to make the point that some counties shout louder than others, and really Kilkenny have benefited from shouting loud.

Kilkenny are on the map in Dublin more than Waterford. It does very well in tourism, and I know Kilkenny is very well laid out and has a nice castle, etc., but Waterford is not a wasteland either.

My thinking on hospitals is this: you have some services that you want in every locale, namely maternity (I know what they're doing!), A&E, normal injuries, overnight monitoring or whatever, patient recovery from surgery, simple surgeries, etc. However, other, more costly, specialist services cannot be provided in every locale, but should be provided on a regional basis, in a regional hospital. Generally speaking I think such services should all be in one hospital, otherwise you might have a situation where a patient is travelling between two hospitals on a continuous basis to treat two slightly different but interrelated problems. (e.g. going to WRH for chemotherapy and going to Dublin for radiotherapy)

Then there are those treatments that are very new or very specialist and they should be provided only by one or two hospitals in the state. No use the WRH getting a slice of that pie, might as well have those treatments in Dublin or Cork and keep them together for consistency.

Just my opinion.

btw. Your population argument is moot. There are more people living in a 40/50 miles radius of Kildare town than Dublin city centre (because of course Dublin city centre is within that radius of Kildare), but most people live in Dublin so that's a better place for specialist hospitals.

There are almost as many people in an 8 mile radius of Waterford city (around 75,000) as there are in the whole of Co. Kilkenny (87,394). More people have to travel for services in Kilkenny than services in Waterford.

The number of people in a 30/40 miles radius of Waterford minus Kilkenny city is probably of a similar number to the number of people in a 30/40 miles radius of Kilkenny minus Waterford city. (Despite the sea being 8 miles south of Waterford.) Waterford is probably a better compromise between South Tipp. and Wexford too. (Particularly roadwise.)

The point I was trying to make is that even though Kilkenny did not get many of the things it was after, it was in the running, which says a lot considering its population. That's all I was trying to say. Fair enough it has needs the same as Waterford has.

I don't think this is healthy competition between Waterford and Kilkenny. Imagine splitting Cork up into four counties. Do you think that would increase or reduce that region? If they co-operated, it might, but if they spent all their time fighting they'd get nowhere. We need to compete with other regions, not each other. Lets not make the fact that counties in the south east are geographically smaller a handicap for us in the modern age.

I don't know what your take on the state of the N9 is, but most Waterford people are under the impression that Kilkenny were happy to leave it go. i.e. effectively saboutaged the road.

Anyway, lets not turn this into an out and out Waterford v Kilkenny thread ok. Just making a few observations.

Couldn't agree more with your last point there...

My take on the N9 is that it is the worst N road in the country and has been disgracefully neglected by central powers for decades whilst other less strategically important roads like the N4 were comprehensively upgraded.
I blame the governement of the last ten years squarely for not accelerating the planned upgrade at a time of supposed unprecendented wealth in this country.
The new road can't come soon enough for Kilkenny, Waterford and the whole south east region in my view.

Schuhart

mfitzy wrote:

Walter Lacey is a muppet in my view; his opinion doesn't count for much in my eyes..He's a PD and theyre a sinking ship as far as i'm concerned really!

But I thought that guy you mentioned from KK Chamber of Commerce there made a fairly valid point.

Essentially what you are saying is ‘I wouldn’t worry too much about those Carlow people. But the idea of locating a Department in Kilkenny is spot on’. I’m not saying you are in league with the devil, but to be honest this response struck me as an illustration of the very problem we’re talking about – people not seeing beyond their county border with the casualty being the prosperity of the region.

All that should be on the cards is upgrading WIT. If it makes sense, from an operational or outreach point of view to have a presence in Kilkenny or anywhere else, it’s another day’s work. Loading it into the agenda like this just communicates that the South East is not a cohesive unit and, unlike Limerick, Galway and Cork, there is no acceptance that Waterford is the regional centre.

road_high

Schuhart wrote:

Essentially what you are saying is ‘I wouldn’t worry too much about those Carlow people. But the idea of locating a Department in Kilkenny is spot on’. I’m not saying you are in league with the devil, but to be honest this response struck me as an illustration of the very problem we’re talking about – people not seeing beyond their county border with the casualty being the prosperity of the region.

All that should be on the cards is upgrading WIT. If it makes sense, from an operational or outreach point of view to have a presence in Kilkenny or anywhere else, it’s another day’s work. Loading it into the agenda like this just communicates that the South East is not a cohesive unit and, unlike Limerick, Galway and Cork, there is no acceptance that Waterford is the regional centre.

No, you've misinterupted my post I reckon.I think Carlow IT is a very useful facility for the region and a valuable asset.
It has really upped it's game in recent years in course and graduate quality and is now being accapted as a popular choice with students and employers.
It would be great in fact to see IT Carlow incorporated into the University plan, perhaps further down the road. It's just the idea of brainless politicians like Lacey and MJ Nolan attacking WIT just for the sake of it, without any real alternative apart from saying 'Carlow IT should get the university' because it's popular locally to say so, really gets on my nerves!

I think the priority must be to get WIT upgraded asap and then talk about presence of outreach in the other towns in the region.

Personally I was raging when I heard Mary Hanafin said WIT was 'doing fine' as an IT i.e.implying the region didnt need a university.Some nerve really...

merlante

mfitzy wrote:

Personally I was raging when I heard Mary Hanafin said WIT was 'doing fine' as an IT i.e.implying the region didnt need a university.Some nerve really...

I was raging that there was no response from Waterford after it. There should have been an outcry, and a debate in the national media for a week -- surely there are some journalists who live in and/or care about the south east? But as usual, tumbleweeds... :mad:

Baby4

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merlante

Baby4 wrote:

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I think maybe the campaign itself wants to get all its ducks in a row before the public fight starts. Still, it would be nice if the ordinary joes booed her off the stage. She should have been booed and heckled out of the place and not allowed to say another word.

The current government stance is that Waterford reverts to a town, a city in name only: that is not ****ing good enough!