Navan Clonsilla route selection

Navan Junction

The following article has appeared in this week's Meath Chronicle.

Very interesting of course, as route selection will have obvious implications for the delivery timescale in the near term, and journey times there after.

A few points are worth making:

In favour of the old alignment:

• Using the old alignment, reinstatement can be achieved with 5 years according to IÉ
• Most direct route through Meath to Navan
• Cheapest option
• Equi-distant between Meath East and Meath West
• Most bridges over the old alignment are intact and double track
• Passes only 2km from Dunshaughlin, a mile as crow flies
• It is an existing alignment - fewer archaelogical considerations etc
• Ensures the fastest journey times for any future reinstatement to Kells, Trim and Kingscourt.

Against the old alignment is the part where it passes Dunshaughlin (approximately less than 2km away) - however it can be brought closer to Dunshaughlin relatively easy.

With a deviation to Ashbourne the line would pass through another centre of population in the county.

However, this could also be achieved by a spur from Fairyhouse, and save having to then double back to Dunshaughlin.

In favour of a spur to Ashbourne rather than a deviation is that journey times from Navan to Dublin via Ashbourne would run at about 60+mins rather than the c.45mins the former alignment offers with a deviation via Dunshaughlin.

A deviation rather than a spur to Ashbourne would put a Navan Clonsilla journey time close to on on a par with Navan Drogheda (c.65min).

A deviation to Ashbourne rather than a spur, would also add c.15 mins to any possible future services from Kells, Trim and Kingscourt.

In addition, due to the extra distance and the multitude of new bridges, new route testing etc there would be an obvious question as to when the line would be completed.

Click here for a map.

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Dublin-Navan rail link 'could take' key towns

Meath Chronicle, 19th July, 2006

THE Dubin-Navan rail link could also take in towns such as Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne following a decision by the Department of Transport to consider potential deviations of the route to these towns.

The Department of Transport and Iarnrod Eireann have indicated that the planning study for the Dunboyne to Navan rail link will now consider the potential for deviations from the original alignment to take in towns such as Ashbourne, Ratoath and Dunshaughlin. The study will be carried out jointly between Meath County Council and Iarnrod Eireann.

The news was welcomed by Minister of State Mary Wallace, who said that she had experienced herself the challenges and pressures that commuters in Meath face in the daily routine of getting to and from their work.

"An investment in rail infrastructure is vital to communities in the county and must be used to get maximum benefit for commuters from large towns such as Ashbourne, Ratoath and Dunshaughlin - towns which are in the hinterland of the original proposed rail link alignment," she said.

"Reducing the volume of traffic on Meath roads, which has increased dramatically in the past few years, has been an important objective of mine. Phase One of the ‘Transport 21’ rail improvements announced last year means that the Dunboyne to Dublin rail link is within sight and will provide a welcome fast alternative for commuters travelling to the city."

She also said that we need a modern transport system that supports Meath’s growing population and economy and that helps create jobs and sustain communities.

"The Dunboyne to Navan rail link, which is Phase Two of ‘Transport 21’, is now being considered and I will be monitoring this important issue and lobbying for the rail link study to be as flexible as possible in order to accommodate the needs of people from the wider areas of Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne," she said.

Phase One to Dunboyne is expected to commence construction during 2008 following the Railway Order process (similar to planning permission) to ensure that the line reopens to Dunboyne in 2009.

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

Against the old alignment is the part where it passes Dunshaughlin (approximately less than 2km away) - however it can be brought closer to Dunshaughlin relatively easy.

With a deviation to Ashbourne the line would pass through another centre of population in the county.

I think Dunshaughlin is a given, although there may not be an absolute need to divert. P&R and a feeder bus might be needed though.

Ashbourne is a bit more complicated and would be more suited to using two separate alignments. Clonsilla-Dunboyne (terminating where ever) and Navan-Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne-Finglas-Pelletstown

Is Pelletstown still available as an option?

MicraBoy

I'm suprised to see Ashbourne even being considered in this scheme. I assume it will be a non-runner.

It would probably be more sensible to run bus shuttle services to the Metro lines proposed under Transport21.

MarkoP11

Given the M3 is between the existing alignment and Dunshaughlin the best option is to pull the railway alongside the western side of the M3 and have a park and ride there and use the existing Drumree to Dunshaughlin road to link into Dunshaughlin. Points in favour of this are that is is simple and has already been considered by IE

Ashbourne is purely political the best route would of course be via Blanchardstown but that alignment is for Metro and thus not available not to mention it woudl come at a huge price tag

Going via Ashbourne will add 10-15 minutes to Navan journey times

Navan Junction

Drumree is a possible site for a Trim P&R as well..

Of course that could be located closer to Dunshaughlin..

Diaspora

Compete red herrings if you ask me; it is DoT playing for time so that they have an excuse as to why it isn't green lit prior to the next election on a more realistic timeframe than 2015 plus natural slippage.

The station at Ballinasloe is a lot further than 2 kms from the centre of the town and yet functions well; the logical move would be to do an Adamstown style multi owner Stategic Developemt Zone scheme for the lands 1kms north and South of a line between a selected station site and the centre of Dunshaughlin.

Ramp up a development contribution scheme at €15k a unit and create a critical mass for the station which if at an average 30 to the hectare over 4 square kilometres would create 12,000 new homes allowing for existing sprawl and contribute €180m in levies.

BrianD

Sometimes I wonder how infrastructure planning operates in this country. This people are highly paid and yet come up with some of the most ridiculous ideas ever. For some reason there is a logic that you should bring the infrastructure to serve places that should never have been built up in the first place. In other countries they stragecially build this infrastructure in a planned manner.

How do we get it so wrong with rail? We allow the rail system fall apart before re-investing. A DART extension to Greystones that should never have been built is allowed to appease politicans. We build two tram lines in Dublin that are doomed to failure and now we proposing to build a new rail route that looks like the route of the 'magic bullet theory' in the JFK assination. Where does it end?

The best route is along the old route to Navan. We can't build a route that will serve all population centres in the county so the zig-zag route should be dropped. Using the old route the stop for Dunshaughlin would be at Drumree. I don't think it would get any closer beacuse of the M3 that will pass between Drumree and Dunshaughlin.

The distances from Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne aren't huge - 3, 9 and 17km respectively. It might be somewhat unattractive for those in Ashbourne but the zig-zag route would increase journey times for everyone making it commuter unfriendly. Also those travelling from Ashbourne and Ratoath would be using an East-West route which is an advantage (instead of a north-south like all the primary commuter rat runs). Ashbourne would be closer to Swords the terminus of the Metro North as well (14Km). Drumree is 16km from Trim and just off the main Dublin-Trim road.

I can't see that a branch off the navan line to Ashbourne would be justified. However, if a deviation from the old alignment was to be undertaken it would be better to "arc" by Ashbourne as it is designated a Moderate Growth town in the county plan as opposed to Dunshaughlin and Ratoath that are Small Growth towns. It would be best in the long run that that the rail link head as directly as opposible to the main growth towm - Navan.

Interesting that the latest MCC county plan for public review apparently states on the front cover that no submissions for the rezoning of lands for residential will be considered. The implication is that the county has sufficient housing stock. Therefore, other than natural growth ay the designated population centres we are not going to see any new towns suddenly appear. The rail link will have to rely on the population from existing centres (plus natural growth) to support it and not future greenfield devlopments.



.

Bill McH

MarkoP11 wrote:

Ashbourne is purely political the best route would of course be via Blanchardstown but that alignment is for Metro and thus not available not to mention it woudl come at a huge price tag

Going via Ashbourne will add 10-15 minutes to Navan journey times

It's probably not correct to say that that alignment is not available. The sensible thing to do, of course, would be to run TRAINS along that alignment from Blanchardstown down through Clonsilla/ Liffey Valley/ Neilstown/Ronanstown /whatever route it takes, to the Kildare line, and use up the excess capacity on the 4-tracked Kildare line and the excess capacity in the interconnector, when it is eventually built.

Given that the Connolly-Maynooth line is probably going to be limited to 8-10 trains per hour, while the interconnector will have a considerably higher capacity, it would probably make sense to use this alignment to get people from Blanchardstown (and maybe Ashbourne) directly into town.

It would be interesting to know how the price tag for building a DART line along this alignment would compare with the price tag for building a metro line along this alignment. Apart from the extra platform lengths, its hard to see how it would be so much bigger than the current plans.

MarkoP11

This is not crayon land lines on maps mean very little, the line shown for Ashbourne is actually much worse in reality

Meath CC drew a line from Blachardstown to Ashbourne, it was impossible anyway since Fingal knew nothing about it and it was reserved since 1975 for the metro system which is actually being built, there is no certainty that Navan is getting a rail link. The metro west alignment as proposed is not suitable for mainline rail vehicles anyway.

The reality is the best practical option is to follow the original alignment as far as is practical

Navan Junction

Diaspora wrote:

The station at Ballinasloe is a lot further than 2 kms from the centre of the town and yet functions well; the logical move would be to do an Adamstown style multi owner Stategic Developemt Zone scheme for the lands 1kms north and South of a line between a selected station site and the centre of Dunshaughlin.

Developers have stunted Dunshaughlin's growth. It is zoned but they have held off developing it. It would be a fair presumption that the new development levies will be strongly focused on Dunshaughlin, and not just Navan and Dunboyne.

BrianD wrote:

The best route is along the old route to Navan. We can't build a route that will serve all population centres in the county so the zig-zag route should be dropped. Using the old route the stop for Dunshaughlin would be at Drumree. I don't think it would get any closer beacuse of the M3 that will pass between Drumree and Dunshaughlin.

That is a problem. There are mixed feelings in Meath about it. Some feel that Ashbourne is a growing population area.

Others point out that growth is peaking there, and that future growth will focus on Navan, Dunshaughlin and of course Dunboyne.

Another featured arguement is that there is no tolling on the N2 and that there is less traffic on it than the N3.

But that is not the defining reason for building a railway of course..

MarkoP11 wrote:

the line shown for Ashbourne is actually much worse in reality

True. It is literally a line drawn by MCC, no study - not even a visual survey.

As a matter of interest when was the last completely new railway in Ireland built?

Transport21 Fan

One part of me wants to see Navan on track ASAP, but another part of me thinks there is far too much railway traditionalism going on regarding reopening Clonsilla-Navan just because it was there in past.

Sure, some of the Clonsilla-Navan railway engineering is impressive and remains, and should be utilised if possible, but a lot of the alingment is obliterated and gone as well.

If we are going to reopen a railway line that technically no longer exsists anymore then why not include Ashbourne into the equation? Sure, it will delay the project (maybe) but it may also boost the case for fast-tacking it as well as it'll add a major population base to a line which let's be honest here runs through very rural locations before it actually reaches Navan itself.

I have mixed feelings about the inclusion of Ashboune and the idea at least is worth a look. I want to see Navan on track ASAP, but if there is merit to the inclusion of Ashboune then why not. If it is going to mess up the whole project then to hell with it.

As yet I have heard no conclusive arguments to include or delete Ashboune from the Navan rail link.

Bill McH

This is not crayon land lines on maps mean very little, the line shown for Ashbourne is actually much worse in reality

Meath CC drew a line from Blachardstown to Ashbourne, it was impossible anyway since Fingal knew nothing about it and it was reserved since 1975 for the metro system which is actually being built, there is no certainty that Navan is getting a rail link. The metro west alignment as proposed is not suitable for mainline rail vehicles anyway.

The reality is the best practical option is to follow the original alignment as far as is practical

Of course there is no certainty that Navan is getting a rail link. Though it is provided for in Transport21, whatever consolation that is to anybody.:rolleyes: Why Navan is not getting some trains in the interim, for a fairly minimal cost and with minimal disruption to Drogheda-Dublin/DART-Dublin services, as proposed by you and your colleagues at Platform 11, is a mystery (to me, in any case).

As far as I am aware, the original alignment seems to be pretty much intact, and thus makes the most sense for a rapid reopening of the stand-alone line. It would appear to me that Asbourne would need a considerable increase in population to make a deviation from the original route a worthwhile one.

Having said that, I must ask you to clarify the statement that "the metro west alignment is not suitable for mainline rail vehicles anyway". To the fairly uninitiated like myself, there's a plan for two tracks with occasional stations. On the other hand, we already have the DART, which has two tracks with occasional (longer) stations.

what's the big difference?

And is it insurmountable?

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

As yet I have heard no conclusive arguments to include or delete Ashboune from the Navan rail link.

The old alignment will be much cheaper. The overbridges, bar a few are in place, and there was a clause included when the land was sold off to make it easier to buy back.

I haven't got details yet - I'm trying to get more info. I got this much from the retired station staff in Navan.

Either way the Dunboyne study stated that if bridges had to rebuilt it would lead to significant extra expense as the land take for new bridges was much greater.

The biggest problem with Ashbourne other than the journey time to Navan, would be that it involves a massive sweep easterly and a virtual restepping back west to Dunshaughlin.

In short, a spur would probably make much more sense than a deviation.

Knowing the territory, dragging the commuters of Navan across to Ashbourne and back west again does not make sense.

Dominic Hannigan (prospective Meath West TD) recently made a submission to bring the rail from Navan across to Ashbourne and then across to Swords and then from there to the City Centre.

How he proposed to do that god knows how.

I think the key thing to remember is that the Navan rail link has been a political football for years - some of the suggestions here in Meath have the potential to push delivery of the line into extra time.

Bill McH wrote:

Of course there is no certainty that Navan is getting a rail link. Though it is provided for in Transport21, whatever consolation that is to anybody.:rolleyes: Why Navan is not getting some trains in the interim

Is a fair point. And waiting 10 years to get a line with a similar journey time as the Drogheda line is a nonsensicle proposition

Transport21 Fan

NJ, I am not being argumrentative for the sake of it. I generally agree that Clonsilla-Navan old route is do-able, adding Ashbourne is intriguing to me (but by no means a major issue) so just to play the Devil's Advocate here.

Navan Junction wrote:

The old alignment will be much cheaper. The overbridges, bar a few are in place, and there was a clause included when the land was sold off to make it easier to buy back.

That's very good, however the land and most of the bridges will still have to be bought back. This is not free infrastruture and farmers love money.

Navan Junction wrote:

Either way the Dunboyne study stated that if bridges had to rebuilt it would lead to significant extra expense as the land take for new bridges was much greater.

This is probably because of the land required on either sides of the river would be needed for the actual construction of the new bridges. This would be marginal at best and could be leased or sold back to the landowners upon completion nof the new bridges.

If they did decide to go by Ashboune how many new bridges would be needed from there to back to Dunshauglishin anyways? From what I recall the land there is very flat and open with few undulations. IIRC correctly this is the area which is officially known as The Pale which derives from a bastardisation of "Plain"? Superficially it looks like perfect terrain to build a new railways with a fairly straight, even run back to Dunshauglishin.

Navan Junction wrote:

The biggest problem with Ashbourne other than the journey time to Navan, would be that it involves a massive sweep easterly and a virtual restepping back west to Dunshaughlin.

That's assuming the line would return to the traditional course south of Dunshauglin village. If the line from Asbourne comes in north of Dushauglin then would it be still so bendy. Another thing to consider here. A brand new line from Ashbourne would be more highly enginneered and therefore much straighter and quicker. It might not add on that much extra trasit time compared to track distance.

Navan Junction wrote:

Dominic Hannigan (prospective Meath West TD) recently made a submission to bring the rail from Navan across to Ashbourne and then across to Swords and then from there to the City Centre.

Well that's just OTT and stinks of lines on mapism.

Navan Junction wrote:

How he proposed to do that god knows how.

Probably had a well known "Independent Rail Researcher" as his expert adviser...

Navan Junction wrote:

I think the key thing to remember is that the Navan rail link has been a political football for years

And it always will be even when it gets built.

Again, I am trying to work out if routing the line by Ashbourne will be that detrimental to both the delivery of the project, or the viability of the service.

Any further information on the physical terrain between Dunboyne and Ashbourne, and Ashbourne and Dunshaughlin would be interesting to see. Last time I was there, that a very flat and open countryside with no major hills or rivers to transverse or go around. I might be wrong, but that's what I remember of the place.

A deviation to Ashbourne rather than a spur, would also add c.15 mins to any possible future services from Kells, Trim and Kingscourt.

Now this is a red herring if ever there was one.

A possible divation to Ashbourne is a lot more viable and realistic than reopening dead branchlines to one horse towns like Kingscourt, Kells and Trim. I really do not think that imaginary future travel times from fantasy rail locations such as Kells and Trim should in anyway detract from the possible inclusion of Ashbourne in the Navan rail project.

FFS, why are these rural villages constantly tagged onto the Navan rail project. It's completely counterproductive if you ask me.

The Navan rail project (apart from Drogheda-Navan) should be approached as blank sheet of paper and not an exercise in restoring all the Victorian railways of the Royal County.

Navan is about rail rapid transit on not creating an East-on-Track mindset. Adding Kingscourt, Kells and Trim does just that. Adding Ashboune by comparison is worth a decent investigation.

MarkoP11

In engineering terms the line is bland and typical of a line of its era, it is however very well engineered only two level crossings on the entire line. The only point of interest is the Boyne Viaduct which is universally accepted to be reused in any reopening. Should note it was widely accepted by people in Navan that the viaduct had been demolished, beyond its locality very very few people even given a OS map can find it, I wont name names.

Any bridge that passes over the line is the responsibility of who owns the road upon it (ie Meath CC bare any cost of reconstruction), only 3 bridges are missing Drumree, south of the Boyne Viaduct and at the Trim road in Navan, the last two are common to all route options. The alignment is protected from further third party incursions, you can't build on it so its value is much less than other land say that in the Ashbourne crayon map alignment. In parts the line looks like a field in others its perfectly defined with telegraph poles still standing. All the major obstructions are in fact on the section which is common to all route options

The Ashbourne deviation adds approx. 9km and 2 station stops which would have a significant resultant effect on journey times. It should be noted I've seen Busaras to Navan on the 6pm bus on a foggy Thursday evening done in under 60 minutes on the current N3. If the rail line goes via Ashbourne you are looking at a journey time of 60 minutes, compared to 50 minutes for the original Dublin and Meath line this is not sufficiently attractive. The deviation is shown as deviating before the station at Pace as such it creates a junction with maintenance, reliability and timetabling issues. No one as yet has explained how this deviation is going to cross the M3 and N3 at this point, Meath CC of course have made no provision in the M3 plans

Lets be clear on this its not some 2 or 3 km deviation its 26 km of brand new alignment across Meath with numerous roads and rivers to cross, it has several sharp bends where as the existing line is almost dead straight thats a planning and engineering nightmare thats going to jack costs up and will run into trouble with local objections, the extra journey time will reduce attractiveness to Navan users (read revenue) and the whole dream unwinds

We all know that the Navan link is not on the real agenda this Ashbourne deviation is all that is needed to jack the costs up and complicate delivery to nuke it

DerekP11

Well lads.

We all agree, so far, that Ashbourne, if included, will add an additional journey time on the Navan - Dublin rail route via Clonsilla.

Ashbourne now has a HQDC link with the M50. Navan is due to get the M3 eventually. A competing rail route should be quicker. It will be for Ashbourne, if included. But as for Navan, the so called direct route, deviated via Ashbourne, would be a joke and never compete with planned road improvements.

I hope Mary Wallace feels as proud as punch! She's just another pitiful example of "political interference" that is just as alarming as some of the carry on that occured in relation to the WRC.

I, for one, think its a clever tactic to delay even further, the reopening of a passenger rail service to Navan. I'll go even further and say that Navan - Dublin via Drogheda is now even more realistic, when one considers the amount of political dogfighting that will go on over Ashbourne.

Navan has fought for years (on and off) for the reopening of its passenger railway connection. Ashbourne never had a rail connection in the first place. The last official opening of a brand new railway was in 1919 to Castlecomer. It closed in 1963, but lost its passenger service years before that. If Ashbourne is to be included in the Navan reopening, then Loughrea in Co. Galway should be included in the reopening of of the WRC. But no mention of deviations over there.

If Ashbourne is to happen it will be even more unprecedented, than the direct route to Navan, as its the only rail project under T21 that is a reopening of a previously abandoned railway. The WRC is still technically in state hands (apart from some driveways, a national primary route and a car dealership)

Face it folks, the Mary (Braveheart) Wallace approach, is just more political interference, that will tie the entire project up in debate for so many years that half of Navan will have relocated to the Isle of Man. Bonkers. Not worth defending and not worth discussing as it will only lend credance to the idea.

NJ......

Send it packing or you can forget about any kind of rail connection for Navan. Whats next? A deviation to Ballyboghil, coz its near Swords?

Political interference will probably deliver the WRC, but will plunge a possible railway in Navan and Meath into a prelonged debate as the figures add up on the M3.

Madness.

Transport21 Fan

Well then fair enough then I'm convinced - an Ashbourne divation would be more trouble than its worth.

Who put this idea of a divation into Wallace's head then? It is a delyaing tactic the suspects and rationale are pretty easy to figure out I would imagine.

Who would profit from a delay to the Navan line other than the DoT? And even with that, would they not be risking a poltical backlash?

aliveandkicking

Ok so the Ashbourne deviation is bonkers but what about the Dunshaughlin deviation shown in the map, Is that anymore viable/attractive?

MarkoP11

aliveandkicking wrote:

Ok so the Ashbourne deviation is bonkers but what about the Dunshaughlin deviation shown in the map, Is that anymore viable/attractive?

This is a fairly safe proposal, the railway will have to remain west of the M3 though, won't add any real distance.

Drumree station is in private ownership and there are some farm buildings on the line close by so a slight deviation would be required anyway

Irish Rail have already thought of a park and ride in the general Drumree area that was nuked due to cost constraints. If built it means you can drive down part of the M3 and avoid the tolls and still get the train

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Who put this idea of a divation into Wallace's head then? It is a delyaing tactic the suspects and rationale are pretty easy to figure out I would imagine.

In a nutshell, it was MCC.

MCC were trying to boost the population by drawing lines on the map. IÉ told them to get rid of it. MCC said sure leave it - what harm can it do.

MCC now regret it. They openly admit it is a line on a map.

Dominic Hannigan lives in Ashbourne, and worked on the Channel Tunnel project. He came up with the Swords idea himself (And a tunnel in from there). His motivation is Ashbourne pure and simple, as that is his constituency. He actually submitted that idea to the terms of reference consulation a few months ago.

Wallace is copying him.

Re Victorian railways, they built a very direct alignment to Navan whilst using the geography along the route to very good effect. Look at the map and you'll see how they minimised the gradients.

I don't mind your humourous knocking of what you percieve is bonkers - but the points aren't entirely bonkers. Reopening the Navan Clonsilla line 10 years ago would have been bonkers - but it's being done now (Maybe:rolleyes: )...

As I said at the start Ashbourne as a spur is one thing, but as a deviation is another proposition entirely.

BTW, I think the Pale is a reference to it being an area of peace under English rule but I may be wrong..

Transport21 Fan wrote:

adding Ashbourne is intriguing to me.

Same here initially - but then you realise that Meath will be lucky to get any railway going on past announcements,and at least there is some infrastructure on the old alignment (quite a bit actually).

What sealed it for me was when MCC ruefully admitted it was literally a line on a map, no walking and study.

A spur makes more sense, if they are to persue Ashbourne.

BrianD

I think that the line has to routed in line with the future development of the county. There are two major town growth centres designated for Meath - Navan and the environs of Drogheda that are in Co. Meath. Ashbourne is a moderate growth centre and Dunshaughlin a small growth centre. From a economic perspective there are two zones of note - the Navan/Trim area and the Dunshaughlin/Ashbourne area. It makes sense that the line should pass through the Dunshaughlin/Ashbourne area and terminate in the major town that does not have a passenger link at present.

Despite what politicians think, the line can't be routed to every town and village that they have unwisely allowed to be over developed in the past. This does not best serve the future and straegic interests of the county. So to me only two options exist - follow the original alignment as much as possible or a second greenfield option where the line goes via the environs of Ashbourne and on to Navan. This is not the most direct route.

Given that the areas east of the old alignment are those that have the most "development pressure" (according to MCC) buying land is going to be expensive. Land acquisition is going to be a major costs - we all now that €36 million was spent buying back garden sheds on the Luas Green line. It also means that these lands will probably become developed as a result and this is not in the plan for the county.

I would be interested to know if there is any definite protection on the old alignment as is? I know on my own road is a bridge on the original line - the line north of the bridge is clearly visible but to the south it has been incorporated into farmland.

Finally, I really don't think that the Drumree location is a problem. It is 5 minutes from Dunshaughlin. It is also on as east-west route from Ratoath and Ashbourne and with some road upgrade to facilitate commuters from these towns it would not be a problem.

Navan Junction

BrianD wrote:

I would be interested to know if there is any definite protection on the old alignment as is? I know on my own road is a bridge on the original line - the line north of the bridge is clearly visible but to the south it has been incorporated into farmland.

You'll find a photo survey of the alignment at www.meathontrack.com. The alignment is being protected now by MCC.

Over the years it has been protected by MCC and compromised by MCC.

Now they are protecting it.

murphaph

Stick to the old alignment and develop Dunshaughlin wetswards to meet the line. Proper medium density accomodation, not 3 bed semi sprawl. Mini-Adamstown as previously mentioned. Ashbourne will have to rely on a good bus service running on a top class road to interchange with metro at Finglas. You can only do so much to serve the sprawl. Dublin has to 'tighten up'.

aliveandkicking

MarkoP11 wrote:

If built it means you can drive down part of the M3 and avoid the tolls and still get the train

So in other words it has no chance of happening then.

Transport21 Fan

Navan Junction wrote:

I don't mind your humourous knocking of what you percieve is bonkers - but the points aren't entirely bonkers. Reopening the Navan Clonsilla line 10 years ago would have been bonkers - but it's being done now (Maybe:rolleyes: )...

10 years ago investment in all ralways was percieved as bonkers - not just to Navan, but everywere. The prevailing mindset out there was LUAS and DART were a waste of money and that "Superhighways" from O'Connell Street to Tallaght and Clondalkin were the answer. Look how long it took to get a train of some kind on the Harcourt Street route, by comparision Navan is doing fantastic.

and I am not being humours about rail lines to Kells, Kingcourt and Trim. I am being very serious for a couple of reasons. Mainly, that there has been enough suburban spread and rather than making it easier for people to live outside the the M50 we should be encpouraging them inside the M50 with Metros, DARTs and Luas. Navan should be the absolute limit of rail communiting in Meath AFAIAC.

There needs to be a line drawn at Navan. Rail lines to Trim, Kells and Kinggscourt being opened are not bonkers, they are a bad idea in terms of encouraging people in the GDR to spread out even further. To be honest I would rather see a rail line of some kind to Ashbourne than to see any of these old rural branchlines reopened to passengers.

MarkoP11

BrianD wrote:

I would be interested to know if there is any definite protection on the old alignment as is? I know on my own road is a bridge on the original line - the line north of the bridge is clearly visible but to the south it has been incorporated into farmland.

Farmland is not a problem, Meath CC learned a lesson last year when the sewer main was found, they denied it on all fronts even when photographs were produced, they went to plan b and a whole list of other excuses appeared. I was told to get a solicitor if I wanted to take it further

Then the week after the county manager lied to a public meeting Meath CC admitted that the pipe existed and would require works to accommodate the line. Meath CC won't let that happen again. If anyone dares to build on the line they will be spotted very quickly and dealt with even if Meath CC turn a blind eye

This all contrasts with Meath CC's actions in the High Court when a land owner was refused permission to build on the line based on a draft development plan, Meath CC won and didn't pay out the multi million damages, its widely accepted the line won't be passing through that site anyway

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 wrote:

Farmland is not a problem, Meath CC learned a lesson last year when the sewer main was found, they denied it on all fronts even when photographs were produced, they went to plan b and a whole list of other excuses appeared. I was told to get a solicitor if I wanted to take it further

Then the week after the county manager lied to a public meeting Meath CC admitted that the pipe existed and would require works to accommodate the line. Meath CC won't let that happen again. If anyone dares to build on the line they will be spotted very quickly and dealt with even if Meath CC turn a blind eye

For Jaysus sake it is only a few feet of bloody pipe on the line. You reroute the pipe when you lay down the tracks - was done a thousand times during the Luas build. Get over it.

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

To be honest I would rather see a rail line of some kind to Ashbourne than to see any of these old rural branchlines reopened to passengers.

Which is fair enough.

And I'm not saying open them now - I'm saying that the alignments should be protected - they may have a use beyond Transport 21.

Take Kingscourt - that line could be sprayed quiet easily with a couple guys walking the route. I wouldn't say the line would ever be useful for passenger services (too slow & low population), but it is there and only closed 5 years.

The alignment to Trim is completely intact minus 2 bridges, nothing built on it - preserving that is quiet easy - just don't build on it. If it is never used again so what. Nothing gained, nothing lost.

Personally, I don't think that growth levels can continue. We are rapidly losing our manufacturing base, and the economy is overly dependent on construction.

But I wouldn't have expected growth to have picked up again so much after 2001, but it has. So who knows what will be considered longer term.

Even if none of these alignments are ever used, it is better to be safe than sorry. It has nothing to do with whether they were built in the era of Victoria or McAleese - they are still very direct paths that may have a use at a later date, and in the case of Trim and Kells only seven and ten miles long respectively.

MarkoP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

For Jaysus sake it is only a few feet of bloody pipe on the line. You reroute the pipe when you lay down the tracks - was done a thousand times during the Luas build. Get over it.

About 600m of pipe infact, because of Meath CC the taxpayer is most likely stuck with the bill to replace it

Bare in mind the pipe was only laid August 2005, many years after Meath CC 'protected' the line

Face facts Meath CC don't give a monkeys about the rail line, M3 toll and the Park and Ride in Pace its a conspiracy

dowlingm

Here's my "plan" - Bus service from Dunshaughlin to Malahide. This connects Ashbourne travellers to:

• Navan via northbound Navan line
• Maynooth/Leixlip/Mullingar/Sligo (maybe even Athlone-Galway) via Southbound Navan
• Dublin Airport via Metro/Swords
• DART & Belfast line via Malahide

This could be extended from Dunshaughlin to Trim to bring in the western catchment.

How many buses could you put on for the price of a 9km diversion?

(edit - plainly when I said eastern I meant "the other eastern" )

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

Here's my "plan" - Bus service from Dunshaughlin to Malahide. This connects Ashbourne travellers to:

• Navan via northbound Navan line
• Maynooth/Leixlip/Mullingar/Sligo (maybe even Athlone-Galway) via Southbound Navan
• Dublin Airport via Metro/Swords
• DART & Belfast line via Malahide

STRIKE!!!


But seriously, it's a good idea.