Irish law on self defence

CIARAN_BOYLE

krd wrote: »

If you have to defend yourself, you have to defend yourself - but you cannot count on being safe from prosecution if you do.

A Guard once gave the advice the one who is the least injured will usually be judged to have started it in a one on one situation with no witnesses or witnesses who missed the start of the incident.

the_ferreter

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

A Guard once gave the advice the one who is the least injured will usually be judged to have started it in a one on one situation with no witnesses or witnesses who missed the start of the incident.

Both my cases were witnessed and on CCTV and still no charges and i was the only one injured!!!!

big_joe_joyce

the_ferreter wrote: »

Interesting thread. I read the above case in the papers, was surprised by the sentence he got but then on reading the write up in the paper he would have used what i deem as excessive force, whether he wanted to kill him or not ...he did.

Ive been on the receiving end of physical violence here in Ireland and both times no charges brought against my assailants. A chunk bitten out of my leg and he walked free....deemed suitable for an adult caution:eek::eek:. And another fella decide to throw a beer barrel at me ,,,which did get me straight across the legs....again no charges brought by the gardai. But when i have a fella throw 5 or 6 punches at me and i do retaliate and put him on his rear end in a couple of punches the Gardai are all over me wanting to press charges.....not excessive but necessary. Now i am an ex kickboxing champion but only used my fists for defence purposes and i wasnt the instigator but i very nearly got charged over it. So it depends n the gardai at the end of the day ....but the law here is so inconsistent its unreal.

But in the circumstances of someone entering my property and i honestly felt threatened for myself or my family....i got no hesitation using any force to resolve the situation and to hell with the consequences.

how willing guards are to act often depends on who is complaining and who is being complained about

some people have so much pull with AGS , they could swing a baseball bat at someone and escape a summons

the_ferreter

big_joe_joyce wrote: »

how willing guards are to act often depends on who is complaining and who is being complained about

some people have so much pull with AGS , they could swing a baseball bat at someone and escape a summons

Aint that the truth...found that out along the way. No real justice system in Ireland ...way too corrupt and its not what you know its who you know!!!!

OU812

NIMAN wrote: »

With the increasing amount of house break-ins these days, I was wondering what the situation would be if you got yourself a baseball bat and had it by your bed, and ended up using it on an intruder?

Would you get done because you had already armed yourself with a weapon, and almost prepared for dishing out a beating?
Or would you get off beating a guy with it cos he broke into your home and you could claim self defence?

I guess it may come down to how badly you beat him.

I'd say you have a technicality, if you have a bat on it own, you have a weapon, but if you have a bat, glove & ball, you have sports kit .

I think though if you're going to beat someone with a baseball bat, there's absoluty no need to have both sides of a conversation with the guards

goose_gladwell

the_ferreter wrote: »

Aint that the truth...found that out along the way. No real justice system in Ireland ...way too corrupt and its not what you know its who you know!!!!

same guy i refered to in my earlier post who got off for assaulting me on my own property

drove a northern reg car with no tax for several years , guards never looked at him , he had pull with important politicans and the top brass of AGS

DanMcCann14

What if a garda is trying to forcibly move you without reasonable cause? I am of course referring to the water meter protests/installations. If you tell the water meter installers you don't want a water meter and a garda comes along to move you, as long as you don't instigate it, can you defend yourself? Specifically, if he/she tries to shove me can I block the shove? Without throwing a punch or retaliating in any way bar preventing the garda from shoving me

Kristopherus

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

What if a garda is trying to forcibly move you without reasonable cause? I am of course referring to the water meter protests/installations. If you tell the water meter installers you don't want a water meter and a garda comes along to move you, as long as you don't instigate it, can you defend yourself? Specifically, if he/she tries to shove me can I block the shove? Without throwing a punch or retaliating in any way bar preventing the garda from shoving me

This is a 2-year old thread. You might fare better in you start a new one.

MarkAnthony

In the situation yo describe the guards have reasonable cause.

DanMcCann14

To provide more context and clarity in this hypothetical scenario, I'm defending my own property and NOT starting a confrontation with the installers or the garda. The shore (I think is what it's called) where they put the meter may not be on the property, but once you remove the cap, you're looking at the infrastructure of your property i.e. the mains and pipes, so it is technically the border of public property (the footpath) and your property. Once that border is crossed, i.e. when an installer puts his hand into the shore, then he/she is technically on your property. When/if said gardaí arrive and you don't start on them but they try to move you from defending your own property and a garda tries to shove you, is that not a just reason to defend yourself? Again when I say "defend yourself" I don't mean throwing a punch or even retaliating, but merely blocking the shove.

MarkAnthony

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

To provide more context and clarity in this hypothetical scenario, I'm defending my own property and NOT starting a confrontation with the installers or the garda. The shore (I think is what it's called) where they put the meter may not be on the property, but once you remove the cap, you're looking at the infrastructure of your property i.e. the mains and pipes, so it is technically the border of public property (the footpath) and your property. Once that border is crossed, i.e. when an installer puts his hand into the shore, then he/she is technically on your property. When/if said gardaí arrive and you don't start on them but they try to move you from defending your own property and a garda tries to shove you, is that not a just reason to defend yourself? Again when I say "defend yourself" I don't mean throwing a punch or even retaliating, but merely blocking the shove.

You're not 'defending' your property you're attempting to stop a lawful water meter installation.

The dwelling of every citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law.

DanMcCann14

In what way is it lawful? Irish Water have no permission to install a meter on any property, unless the recipient gives it to them. There was never a referendum to achieve such status. They are a semi-state body, not a government organisation. And even if they were, as I said there needs to be a referendum to accomodate such change (the installation of the meters). I realise that for some reason, not engaging them is the same as consent, so just to add, I did deny Irish Water installing a meter on my property, but it couldn't have been further from a confrontation. There was no garda present, I merely said to the guys as nicely as I could "No thanks, we don't want the meter" he replied with "You don't want?" I should clarify by saying they were 2 foreign guys, not that it matters but it provides some context. I then said "No thanks" and he said "Ok no problem" and carried on to the next house. I'm asking the above out of curiosity

MarkAnthony

Thats a huge amount of information to go back to the original point that is the guards would have reasonable cause.

On a practical level you'd be a fool to try and 'defend' your property. There are many avenues of recourse, standing there obstructing or pushing a guard is not one of them.

MarkAnthony

I also don't quite understand why the guards would be involved on your own property anyway - as you've said simply refuse the install. The only way I can see this being an issue is if you're trying to objectrut the install on someone else's property.

Pat Mustard

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

In what way is it lawful? Irish Water have no permission to install a meter on any property, unless the recipient gives it to them. There was never a referendum to achieve such status. They are a semi-state body, not a government organisation. And even if they were, as I said there needs to be a referendum to accomodate such change (the installation of the meters).

The Water Services Acts appear to give the powers to relevant authorities to install this equipment and to apply for injunctions against people who obstruct them.

Obstruction of the relevant authorities in the exercise of their powers is a criminal offence.

But if you want to make an argument about the unconstitutionality of the legislation, you can go to court and argue whatever you like there.

I don't see that this is a self-defence thread at all, so unless it gets back on track, I'm going to merge it with the Irish Water discussion.

DanMcCann14

Mark Anthony, I don't believe I'd be a fool to defend my property as it's in the rights of every citizen to do so. And again by defend I don't mean going shoving guards or the installers, I mean, as you've agreed with, refusing the install. But there have been many cases on youtube, for example, where people have refused it and gardaí have come and bullied these people out of the way, hence my original point (directed at The Mustard) could you defend yourself if a garda tried to shove you or push you out of the way. And I would not be "obstructing" anyone if I was there from before they arrived, as obstructing is getting in the way (correct me if I'm wrong)

Pro Hoc Vice

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

Mark Anthony, I don't believe I'd be a fool to defend my property as it's in the rights of every citizen to do so. And again by defend I don't mean going shoving guards or the installers, I mean, as you've agreed with, refusing the install. But there have been many cases on youtube, for example, where people have refused it and gardaí have come and bullied these people out of the way, hence my original point (directed at The Mustard) could you defend yourself if a garda tried to shove you or push you out of the way. And I would not be "obstructing" anyone if I was there from before they arrived, as obstructing is getting in the way (correct me if I'm wrong)

If you are in the way of a person who has a statutory power to do x and you before they arrive stand in the way then you are obstructing. To try and stop a person who has a legal right to do something then it is not self defence.

MarkAnthony

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

Mark Anthony, I don't believe I'd be a fool to defend my property as it's in the rights of every citizen to do so. And again by defend I don't mean going shoving guards or the installers, I mean, as you've agreed with, refusing the install. But there have been many cases on youtube, for example, where people have refused it and gardaí have come and bullied these people out of the way, hence my original point (directed at The Mustard) could you defend yourself if a garda tried to shove you or push you out of the way. And I would not be "obstructing" anyone if I was there from before they arrived, as obstructing is getting in the way (correct me if I'm wrong)

I'm sorry but given the availability of cheap and excellent cameras one would have to be a complete fool bordering on being a moron.

Stand back, get it all on tape (god I'm old) and pursue it from there. If you want to see civil disobedience done right watch Gandhi, that's what you need on that scale. Here we've a long and interesting history of people standing up to the State through the courts and winning, that's how you get something done.

You've had the law explained to you by two very knowledgeable people and one lay person (me). It's simply not self defence.

I applaud people's sentiment but this is being gone about in completely the wrong way. Water protesters are coming across as thugs, almost universally. There's an easy, simple solution. Don't pay - if no one pays what do you think will happen?

Anyway /rant you asked for an explanation of the law, you got it. My apologies for derailing the thread.

Zambia

DanMcCann14 wrote: »

Mark Anthony, I don't believe I'd be a fool to defend my property as it's in the rights of every citizen to do so. And again by defend I don't mean going shoving guards or the installers, I mean, as you've agreed with, refusing the install. But there have been many cases on youtube, for example, where people have refused it and gardaí have come and bullied these people out of the way, hence my original point (directed at The Mustard) could you defend yourself if a garda tried to shove you or push you out of the way. And I would not be "obstructing" anyone if I was there from before they arrived, as obstructing is getting in the way (correct me if I'm wrong)

If you are considering going head to head with the gardai, maybe seek legal advice from someone qualified to defend you later in court.

Batons hurt instantly
OC spray burns for 45 minutes
And assault convictions last a life time.

If you want free water disconnect from the mains and buy a f--king funnel.

Desoh

Holy crap that must be the most frightening post I have ever read off boards.ie

I live in Dublin 1 since I bought in 2008 and I have never had an issue with a drug addict apart from being asked for some spare change. You're assuming that every addict will stab you with a a HIV syringe or rob you and that every homeless person will die a horrible violent death? I can assure you it's not the hood. You appear to have experienced every negative experience in life yet you make remarks about liberals who object to some poor soul being kicked to death for 70c? Then at the same time you refer to the Chinese as gooks? Wtf? This ignorant post has made so angry I swear.

And what does Belsen have to do with it? I hope this is some sort of weird satire that I can't understand.

RIP Noel you didn't deserve such such treatment and I hope his daughter lives a long, healthy and prosperous life.

Desoh

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Colonel Kurtz, is that you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNUr__-VZeQ

He sounds more like Adolf Hitler to me!

Desoh

NIMAN wrote: »

With the increasing amount of house break-ins these days, I was wondering what the situation would be if you got yourself a baseball bat and had it by your bed, and ended up using it on an intruder?

Would you get done because you had already armed yourself with a weapon, and almost prepared for dishing out a beating?
Or would you get off beating a guy with it cos he broke into your home and you could claim self defence?

I guess it may come down to how badly you beat him.

What are you talking about? You can't compare following some poor chap out onto the street and kicking him to death for 70c with somebody breaking into your home. The mentality of some people is frightening. Fortunately you are just all talk behind your computer.

Desoh

krd wrote: »

I'm not sure how the process works. Do the Garda suggest the charge, and then the DPP decides. Or the DPP has to make the decision on the basis of the Garda's charge. Or the DPP decides the charge.


I think the distinction between murder and manslaughter is not just premeditation - but also mens rea. If you start a fight with someone in a pub, and some of your drunken blows kill them, without your intention to kill them, that's manslaughter. If you are sober and you repeatedly kick someone in the head who is on the ground, and they die, that could be taken as you had the deliberate conscious aim of killing them. In that instance it's murder.

Probably Zhen Dong Zhao's big mistake was saying to the Garda "I wanted to teach him a lesson", instead of saying, "he hit me, and I lost it"....or even better, "he hit me, then threatened to kill me, and I feared for my life, and just lost it"


Would Zhen Dong Zhao have much chance of an appeal?

On appeal, can the charge be reduced, from murder to manslaughter - or does it stay the same, unless it's struck out?



It's an interesting comparison between how Pádraig Nally, was prosecuted for manslaughter for shooting John Ward - and eventually having the conviction quashed.

His mistake was kicking somebody to date for 70c! That should not be acceptable in a civilised country. Lock him up and deport him!

Desoh

big_joe_joyce wrote: »

all depends on the kind of judge you meet in court

i was assaulted by an intruder on my own property several years ago , the fight was pretty harmless , i got a black eye , i merely rugby tackled him to the ground and held him down , he made false allegations that i used a weapon , we were both summonsed but i was the only one convicted of assault , the same idiot judge who convicted me , made an off the cuff remark in court a year later about how he would shoot an intruder who tresspassed onto his property , made the national news , hes a notoriously idiotic and intemperate judge

my point is , no two court sittings are the same ,especially when it comes to relativley minor low profile offenses , you need a good solicitor , i hadnt one and my barrister was a rookie who got stage fright , was a fool not to have appealed what was a stonewall case

If you rugby tackled him to the ground it's unlikely he had injuries to suggest a weapon was used on him. Which the court would need to see. I think you are lying!

Desoh

the_ferreter wrote: »

Interesting thread. I read the above case in the papers, was surprised by the sentence he got but then on reading the write up in the paper he would have used what i deem as excessive force, whether he wanted to kill him or not ...he did.

Ive been on the receiving end of physical violence here in Ireland and both times no charges brought against my assailants. A chunk bitten out of my leg and he walked free....deemed suitable for an adult caution:eek::eek:. And another fella decide to throw a beer barrel at me ,,,which did get me straight across the legs....again no charges brought by the gardai. But when i have a fella throw 5 or 6 punches at me and i do retaliate and put him on his rear end in a couple of punches the Gardai are all over me wanting to press charges.....not excessive but necessary. Now i am an ex kickboxing champion but only used my fists for defence purposes and i wasnt the instigator but i very nearly got charged over it. So it depends n the gardai at the end of the day ....but the law here is so inconsistent its unreal.

But in the circumstances of someone entering my property and i honestly felt threatened for myself or my family....i got no hesitation using any force to resolve the situation and to hell with the consequences.

More bull****!

Desoh

the_ferreter wrote: »

Aint that the truth...found that out along the way. No real justice system in Ireland ...way too corrupt and its not what you know its who you know!!!!

I have never had any complaints with the justice system in Ireland. I think the guards do a fantastic job under the circumstances. You seem to be getting into scraps the whole time. I think you're claim about being punched several times on CCTV but yet the guards prosecuted you is highly dubious tbh!

Desoh

goose_gladwell wrote: »

same guy i refered to in my earlier post who got off for assaulting me on my own property

drove a northern reg car with no tax for several years , guards never looked at him , he had pull with important politicans and the top brass of AGS

So some random guy with powerful connections in the government and the gardai just walked onto your property and assaulted you?
Are you certain you weren't just being a busybody because he had no car tax? How could you possibly know he had political connections? Bull****!

FanadMan

Desoh wrote: »

Are you certain you weren't just being a busybody because he had no car tax? How could you possibly know he had political connections? Bull****!

Did you not notice that most of what you quoted above is about 4 years old and most of the posters you quoted are banned or have left?

krd

krd wrote: »

While Justice Paul Carney said that alcohol does not afford a defence - which it doesn't, but. The court would consider someone under the influence of alcohol not fully in control of their mental faculties. So, there is a distinction - stamp someone to death while you are drunk, it's manslaughter - do it while you are sober, and it's murder.

The Courts are fundamentally wrong on this, in my opinion; alcohol should be an aggravating factor, not a mitigating one.