Music in Islam

Medina

Hi,
I've been told that music is banned in Islam, but is singing not a type of music? The links in the sticky direct to people who sing (I'm not talking about the recitation of the Qu'ran here). But just because you have no 'instruments' to make music does that mean that singing is not music?


Whats the definition of 'music'?

Wibbs

Big debate over this one. I seem to remember that in the first place the prohibition comes from the hadeeth not the Quran. Some of the more austere sects of Islam consider all music haraam or forbidden, while others have no such issue just as long as it doesn't lead people into sinful practice(AFAIR correct me here, oh look it's the new mr ) In the more extreme view the only music allowed is the call to prayer or recitation of the Quran. Some others consider drums and singing ok. There's a sliding scale at work. I would suspect that nowadays the prohibition is as much to do with a resistance to western influences in the music as many Islamic composers in the past didn't seem too worried.

I'd say that one of the few points that myself and the most extreme Wahabbi Muslim would agree upon is that anything that makes britney spears and her kind bad to listen to is alright in my book.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Hi,
I've been told that music is banned in Islam, but is singing not a type of music? The links in the sticky direct to people who sing (I'm not talking about the recitation of the Qu'ran here). But just because you have no 'instruments' to make music does that mean that singing is not music?


Whats the definition of 'music'?

Pork/Swine is forbidden in Islam, but is it not lard/pig fat also a piggy?
Of course it is. So your questions has a few meanings.

BTW, Islamic sholars have different opinios on that. However, they all agree on the fact that every singing or lyrics that contradict Islamic Teachings (i.e. lyrics mentioning murder, sex, black magic, etc.) are strictly forbidden 'cos they invite, they call to immorality. Then again, immorality as defined by Islam, not by some western world.

Medina

Thats fair enough. But what about songs about abstract topics such as lost love or the beauty of nature?

Or listening just to music with no lyrics?

What exactly is allowed and what exactly is forbidden..?

There are some great artists who create only music or who create songs that are not Islamically directed but which don't go against teachings?

And by songs I mean music with lyrics.

Not all music leads to sin.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Thats fair enough. But what about songs about abstract topics such as lost love or the beauty of nature?

Or listening just to music with no lyrics?

What exactly is allowed and what exactly is forbidden..?

There are some great artists who create only music or who create songs that are not Islamically directed but which don't go against teachings?

And by songs I mean music with lyrics.

Not all music leads to sin.

For these specific kinds of music/lyrics as I said, Islamic scholars disagree a bit. Eventually, they try their best to get the real meaning, however at the end they admit - as always - that Allah swt knows best.

Honestly, it's a personal pick anyway, however by the vast majority of scholars, it is not advisable. Why? Well for example, it is always much better (and nobody can compare that) to listen to Qur'an recitation than to music of any kind 'cos Qur'an invites to good whilst that particular music/lyrics not necessarily and usually not.


103. Al-'Asr : The Afternoon

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

By the declining day,

103:1



Lo! man is in a state of loss,

103:2


Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to endurance.

103:3


So in this case, a man would be in as state of loss.

And Allah swt knows best.

Gordon

Anyone listen to Qawwali music? It's devotional music from Sufism which I understand has roots in Islam. Fantastic vocal music.

Medina

Your quotations didn't really seem relevant to the topic?

Can you quote the verse where it bans / advises against music?

babyvaio

Gordon wrote:

Anyone listen to Qawwali music? It's devotional music from Sufism which I understand has roots in Islam. Fantastic vocal music.

No, but you might want to try this (it's not music though)

http://www.jannah.org/quran/

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Your quotations didn't really seem relevant to the topic?

Can you quote the verse where it bans / advises against music?

Here is the verse, detailed explanation you will find on the link below. Now, since you are not Arab - I guess - then you do not know the language, so there are different terms used to translate the word which leads to music/singing.

Details on this you can find here:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1716/music.html

And the verse is this:

1. Allaah said, what translated means, "And of mankind he who purchases idle talks to mislead (people) from the Path of Allaah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allaah) by way of mockery, For such there will be a humiliating torment." [31:6].

Al-Wahidi , along with other scholars of Tafsir (explaining the Qur'aan), said that "Idle Talk" in this Ayah is singing. The following companions gave this Tafsir: Ibn Abbas, Ibn Masud, Mujahid and Ikrimah . Ibn Masud said, "By Allaah, whom there is no God except Him, idle talk is singing."

Wibbs

Medina wrote:

Your quotations didn't really seem relevant to the topic?

Can you quote the verse where it bans / advises against music?

It's not in the Quran, but in the Hadeeth(life of the prophet) and having read debates on both sides it's quite vague(not vague about sinful music naturally).

Medina

But a lot of music /singing encourages people to good behaviour, to peace and to love each other (in a brotherly/sisterly way).

Why is all music and singing regarded as 'misleading' people when a lot of it can do some good?

And why then are there links to singing in a sticky on this forum?

Singing that is performed by men when according to the info on the link it should only be at weddings and by or for women?

Gordon

So music without voice is ok?

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

But a lot of music /singing encourages people to good behaviour, to peace and to love each other (in a brotherly/sisterly way).

Why is all music and singing regarded as 'misleading' people when a lot of it can do some good?

And why then are there links to singing in a sticky on this forum?

Singing that is performed by men when according to the info on the link it should only be at weddings and by or for women?

The problem is that people usually waste their time here in this life. They have The Last Revealed Book from Almighty Allah swt - The Qur'an - however they still choose and pick music instead.

Now, does that not sound almost like worshipping those singers and not worshipping Almighty?

You of course may answer what you like, aber that's your perspective. Remember that Almighty might have a slightly different opinion on that meaning you picked music instead of following My Revelation, so what are your arguments? - just a thought -

Medina

Would this not apply to television also then? How many Muslims watched the World Cup..do you think that in God's eyes they were doing something wrong because they were 'wasting their time'?

Why would a Muslim choose any kind of entertainment/pastime when the Qu'ran is sitting on their shelf waiting to be read?

This sounds a bit strange. Listening to music does not mean that people will always be worshipping something else. We have senses and music appeals to us. Same as television or the internet appeal to our eyes.

So unless you're saying all entertainments are a waste of time and worshipping something else, then it doesn't really make sense because music is no different to spending your time playing chess for example.

If I'm sitting at my desk typing for work, should I every time listen to recitations? Especially if I was a Muslim who couldn't understand Arabic even?

This becomes all encompassing according to your argument.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Would this not apply to television also then? How many Muslims watched the World Cup..do you think that in God's eyes they were doing something wrong because they were 'wasting their time'?

Why would a Muslim choose any kind of entertainment/pastime when the Qu'ran is sitting on their shelf waiting to be read?

This sounds a bit strange. Listening to music does not mean that people will always be worshipping something else. We have senses and music appeals to us. Same as television or the internet appeal to our eyes.

So unless you're saying all entertainments are a waste of time and worshipping something else, then it doesn't really make sense because music is no different to spending your time playing chess for example.

If I'm sitting at my desk typing for work, should I every time listen to recitations? Especially if I was a Muslim who couldn't understand Arabic even?

This becomes all encompassing according to your argument.

good point about wasting our time.

You got me know, I'll try not to watch the next WC - if I live that long.

Medina

Sorry but that sounds extremist.

Basically what you've said is that doing anything with free time other than reading/listening to the qu'ran is a waste of time.

Does this include all pastimes? Hillwalking? Fishing? Swimming?

HelterSkelter

Medina wrote:

Hi,
I've been told that music is banned in Islam, but is singing not a type of music? The links in the sticky direct to people who sing (I'm not talking about the recitation of the Qu'ran here). But just because you have no 'instruments' to make music does that mean that singing is not music?


Whats the definition of 'music'?

It depends on who you ask. Yusuf Islam (Cat Stephens) is releasing is first "pop" music album in 28 years this November (http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/news/article485922.ece). He is a well respected Muslim and he seems to think it is ok.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Sorry but that sounds extremist.

Basically what you've said is that doing anything with free time other than reading/listening to the qu'ran is a waste of time.

Does this include all pastimes? Hillwalking? Fishing? Swimming?

I'm sorry but I didn't say that. Can somebody find it?

What I meant that music is something specific, it's similar, but not equal to Qur'an recitation - BTW it produces some kind sound, right? And I don't maen sound like when a rock falls down from a mountain, let's make this clear.

Things you mentioned like walking, fishing, etc. are all by nature good things, - now let's not be extreme and say that you go for a walk to kills the 1st person you encounter -and you cannot compare them to listening to Speeach of Almighty.

BTW, of course you can make you walk better (if you do not have a company) if you listen to the Qur'an recitation at the same time.

Basically, if you go to bed at night with intention to rest your body given by The Lord, then you are worshipping Him by giving your body a chance to recover.
If you eat (allowed) food with intention not to die hungry, then you are pleasing your Lord Who gave you that body.
If you talk to people (having good manners, meaning nothing bad, etc.) that's also worshipping The Lord.
If you help somebody to please your Lord, that's also worshipping Him.
If you learn (to grasp/gain useful knowledge) you are worshipping your Lord and He is pleased with you.

Direct worshipping is performing prayers on time, fasting when you are ordered to, etc.

So all this and much more is worshipping Allah swt.

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

It depends on who you ask. Yusuf Islam (Cat Stephens) is releasing is first "pop" music album in 28 years this November (http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/news/article485922.ece). He is a well respected Muslim and he seems to think it is ok.

He is also an ex-singer... :cool:

Medina

babyvaio wrote:

I'm sorry but I didn't say that. Can somebody find it?

What I meant that music is something specific, it's similar, but not equal to Qur'an recitation - BTW it produces some kind sound, right? And I don't maen sound like when a rock falls down from a mountain, let's make this clear.

Things you mentioned like walking, fishing, etc. are all by nature good things, - now let's not be extreme and say that you go for a walk to kills the 1st person you encounter -and you cannot compare them to listening to Speeach of Almighty.

BTW, of course you can make you walk better (if you do not have a company) if you listen to the Qur'an recitation at the same time.

I don't see where the boundaries are between what pastimes are a waste of time and what are not. Perhaps you'd like to explain.

Getting solace from music is no different than getting solace on a long hillwalk with a great view.

So I don't see the difference.

Wibbs

babyvaio wrote:

He is also an ex-singer... :cool:

Ouch!:D

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

I don't see where the boundaries are between what pastimes are a waste of time and what are not. Perhaps you'd like to explain.

Getting solace from music is no different than getting solace on a long hillwalk with a great view.

So I don't see the difference.

I understand, but I gave you more or less my private view, which many of the scholars would confirm and some maybe wouldn't.

Music is a grey area. There are things which are good, st stick to them, there are things which are bad, so avoid doing them, and yet there are things for which you can't be 100% sure if they're good for you, so advice is to avoid them, just to make sure.

HelterSkelter

babyvaio wrote:

He is also an ex-singer... :cool:

I don't get you. How is he an ex-singer if he is making a new album which he sings on?

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

I don't get you. How is he an ex-singer if he is making a new album which he sings on?

OK, I'll rephrase - he's an ex-pop/rock singer by my knowledge.
Now, does he sing on the new album, check it out. I wouldn't know.

What I'm sure of is that the album is not pop/rock or any other kind of music that you are refering to.

Wibbs

I misunderstood too. Thought you were taking the mickey. Ah well.

http://catstevens.com/discography/albums/00048.html Here's the skinny on the new album. Apparently mostly (bosnian)folk songs with Yusuf doing backing vocals. He does one song in English about children who lost their parents in that war.

HelterSkelter

Wibbs wrote:

I misunderstood too. Thought you were taking the mickey. Ah well.

http://catstevens.com/discography/albums/00048.html Here's the skinny on the new album. Apparently mostly (bosnian)folk songs with Yusuf doing backing vocals. He does one song in English about children who lost their parents in that war.

Nah, that is not the one I am talking about. He is recording a new album at the moment. It features him singing & playing guitar with drums. You won't find it on his discography because it is not finished/released yet. There was a programme on BBC1 about him last May and he was talking about it. Very interesting stuff.

Check out this BBC article, I think it is the correct one but I can't check because it is blocked here in work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4990640.stm

HelterSkelter

babyvaio wrote:

OK, I'll rephrase - he's an ex-pop/rock singer by my knowledge.
Now, does he sing on the new album, check it out. I wouldn't know.

What I'm sure of is that the album is not pop/rock or any other kind of music that you are refering to.

Not according to this:

http://billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002199215

http://catstevens.com/news.html?id=00235

UPDATED: YUSUF ISLAM READYING NEW POP ALBUM
UPDATE: More news outlets are picking up this great news. Today we found a Reuters article as well as one on BBC. This is great press for the new album, and we hope it will build on Yusuf's already great momentum. According to the articles, Yusuf hopes the new album will provide a bridge between his relion of Islam and the West. We're really looking forward to the new album, which will be released on Polydor, a division of Universal.

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

Not according to this:

http://billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002199215

http://catstevens.com/news.html?id=00235

UPDATED: YUSUF ISLAM READYING NEW POP ALBUM
UPDATE: More news outlets are picking up this great news. Today we found a Reuters article as well as one on BBC. This is great press for the new album, and we hope it will build on Yusuf's already great momentum. According to the articles, Yusuf hopes the new album will provide a bridge between his relion of Islam and the West. We're really looking forward to the new album, which will be released on Polydor, a division of Universal.

Then I was wrong. If there's a guitar, then it has to be rocky/popy/whatever.
I personaly do not agree with that and I have strong proofs from The Qur'an and The Prophet's saws Way to back it up. In fact, people who really have the knowledge of Islam will tell you that (and BTW I don't mean myself).

And BTW, since when do we judge a system of faith like Islam on what Muslims do?
Do we judge Christianity based on what Christians do?
Hmmmm...

HelterSkelter

babyvaio wrote:

Then I was wrong. If there's a guitar, then it has to be rocky/popy/whatever.
I personaly do not agree with that and I have strong proofs from The Qur'an and The Prophet's saws Way to back it up. In fact, people who really have the knowledge of Islam will tell you that (and BTW I don't mean myself).

Is it not the sentiments in the song that should be the concern, not the instruments played. For example if he sings a song with acoustic guitar, some drums, etc and the words have a positive Islamic meaning, how can this be a bad thing?

I remember watching a video about an American Muslim convert (who used to be in a rock band, took drugs, etc). He went with a group to the middle east to study Islam in more detail. One evening after they had finished up the Immans asked his group if they knew any songs. None of his group knew any because they were all of the opinion that music is forbidden. To their amazement the people they travelled to the middle east to learn from all took turns to sing. They couldn't understand why these Muslims from the West thought music was such a bad thing.

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

Is it not the sentiments in the song that should be the concern, not the instruments played. For example if he sings a song with acoustic guitar, some drums, etc and the words have a positive Islamic meaning, how can this be a bad thing?

I remember watching a video about an American Muslim convert (who used to be in a rock band, took drugs, etc). He went with a group to the middle east to study Islam in more detail. One evening after they had finished up the Immans asked his group if they knew any songs. None of his group knew any because they were all of the opinion that music is forbidden. To their amazement the people they travelled to the middle east to learn from all took turns to sing. They couldn't understand why these Muslims from the West thought music was such a bad thing.

I understand what you're saying, but you forgot what I had said before: Muslim scholars are split-up here, some support music as it is not forbidden under certain conditions whilst for others it is forbidden no matter what the conditions are.

HelterSkelter

babyvaio wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but you forgot what I had said before: Muslim scholars are split-up here, some support music as it is not forbidden under certain conditions whilst for others it is forbidden no matter what the conditions are.

How do you feel about it, just out of interest? Do you listen to music? If so, what types?

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

How do you feel about it, just out of interest? Do you listen to music? If so, what types?

I used to listen to music, but I do not listen to it anymore. I listen to the Qur'an recitations and lectures.

Squaddy

Sorry if someone said this already but Sunni Yusulf (spelt right?) is a fantastic singer.

babyvaio

Squaddy wrote:

Sorry if someone said this already but Sunni Yusulf (spelt right?) is a fantastic singer.

Yusuf Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Islam

blackthorn

^ Or Sami Yusuf even.

the_new_mr

Wibbs wrote:

(AFAIR correct me here, oh look it's the new mr )

Sorry for being late. I've been crazy busy with real world stuff recently and honestly haven't had the chance to check the forum. Found a whole pile of threads since

Anyway, Wibbs is correct here. There are generally three opinions on this. There is a large number of people in each and everyone should respect the opinion of the other.

I personally wondered about this subject for a long while myself and, after being told different things by different people, I decided to find out for myself. I read a book called "Diversion and Arts in Islam" by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. I bought it because it had everything I was looking for and mentioned the Verses of the Quran and the hadith that say that music is forbidden.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, Qaradawi's view is that music per se is not haram but that the content of the music itself is important (mozart ok, snoop dogg not ok:)). This was actually my own opinion up until reading the book but the book reaffirmed that opinion.

With respect to the verse from Surat Luqman and that "idle talk" is with reference to singing, Qaradawi stated:

Ibn Hazem was of the opinion that this claim is groundless for three reaons: First, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade singing. Second, their judgements ran counter to those of the other companions and followers. Third, the context of the Ayat (verses) on which they based their argument is in direct contradiction to their verdict

and so it goes on.

As for the hadiths mentioning musical instruments (or sometimes specifically string or wind instruments), these are considered hadith daeef (weak). This was also something I'd heard before but couldn't be sure until reading the book.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I still accept the fact that music may indeed be haram or halal. We have to respect all the opinions and it's no insult to anyone if we accept one opinion over another. Only God knows for sure but I honestly don't believe that it is.

And concerning wasting time, there is no question that we shouldn't waste too much of our time but there is no wrong in entertaining ourselves a little. The spirit cannot go on listening to Quran all the time. For sure, the more you do, the better but you shouldn't do it just because you feel you have to. You should do it because you feel you want to. So, a bit of Quran, a bit of world cup, a bit of beethoven, a bit of computer games and a bit of this and that is fine and I understand that all scholars agree that relaxing a little is perfectly acceptable as long as it's not done in excess.

metrovelvet

Can you guys take ballet/jazz/contemporary/hip hop?

If not, why?

the_new_mr

You mean dance, right? Well, for sure any kind of dancing that entails wearing very tight fitting clothes is not okay for both men and women alike. Dancing in a mixed environment is also not okay (unless with your spouse, brother/sister etc).

I think that other than that, it would be okay to put on a dance show for people of the same sex as long as the moves are not too lude.

If you mean music, then I'm with the opinion that the content of the music matters. In the same way that the difference between an okay sentence and a bad one is that the bad one contains bad language or is backstabbing someone, the difference between good lyrics and bad lyrics are the same criteria.

metrovelvet

Yes I did mean dancing. But I didnt mean club dancing or social dancing. What I mean is dancing in its various artistic disciplines, dance as performance, or as a student of dance.

Why do the genders have to be segregated? Art wants to bring people together not pull them apart! Thats one of the great things about music too -it brings people together!

the_new_mr

Sorry about the delay. Had a lot on my plate recently. Actually tried to reply yesterday morning but boards was having none of it Just a glitch I guess

Yes, I agree with you. Art does indeed bring people together.

Still, we have to be careful what happens when we're brought together. It is my understanding that dance as a performance etc is okay as long as the dress is not tight fitting or moves lude. Not sure if it's okay to have mixed perfomers infront of a mixed audience if the previous two conditions are satisfied but I would say it's probably okay for same sex performers and audience.

metrovelvelt wrote:

Why do the genders have to be segregated?

Well, mixed dancing and physical contact and/or lude moves lead to the obvious situation of a high probability of sexual tension between individuals. There's no denying it really. As I said above, I'm not sure on if it would be okay if the performers and audience were mixed as long as dress and moves would be okay.

If there is any doubt to the natural train of thought of individuals if lude dress and lude moves are allowed in a mixed sex environment then I need only ask anyone who is in doubt to listen to a few guys or girls chatting about members of the opposite sex when they're watching a program like "So you think you can dance?" or "Strictly come dancing". Accepted, mostly guys are guilty of this but girls also take part in such conversations.

God doesn't wish hardship for us and such things are for our own protection as sometimes we need protection from our own selves.

metrovelvet

I have never ever heard anyone talk about what you see on those programmes in eroticized terms. The only way I could imagine that - is if they are sex obsessed individuals.

I see dance and in it I see something transcendant [when its good quality dance and choreography] moving, and empathic.

How sad that some people miss out on what the human body can do and express where language fails.

Medina

What exactly do you see it as expressing?
Surely dance expresses lots of different things, but you have to agree that the most popular forms express sexual desire or create sexual tension.

I would say it really depends who the audience is and who you are dancing with.

I doubt it is wrong for a Muslim woman to give her husband a private lapdance?

metrovelvet

No. I already said what kind of dance Im talking about. Im not talking about social/club dancing. Im talking about something else, where people devote their lives to a technique and an art which they then give to an audience.

And I dont agree with you that the most popular forms are for sexual arousal. That's pole dancing. Can we leave the gutter out of this please. Thank you.

Hobbes

Different people have different levels of what they define music that causes arousal. As I recall "In the air tonight" was one of the most famous and was mostly played in clubs/discos at the time.

Medina is right. It really depends on the context of the music/dance.

Medina

I think you're being overly harsh there Metrovelvet.

The most popular forms of dance would appear (but not necessarily are) things like Salsa dancing, RnB dancing, Hip Hop dancing, Flamenco dancing or what's called 'Modern Dance'. I think all of these are used to provoke a person's sexuality.



If you mean things like Ballet then ballet certainly is more subtle and beautiful a dance and maybe more innocent.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

Different people have different levels of what they define music that causes arousal. As I recall "In the air tonight" was one of the most famous and was mostly played in clubs/discos at the time.

Medina is right. It really depends on the context of the music/dance.

I was very specific about what kind of dance I was talking about. Im not talking about clubs and discos. How many times must I say it.

Hobbes

As I said it varies. Ballet for example can be very erotic depending on what your watching. People have different levels. Some people see pole dancing as no big deal, others would get pretty hot under the collar.

Why is that concept so hard to understand? Or do you need them to comment on a particular genre exactly?

metrovelvet

Hobbes if you dont mind it would be nice to hear from people who actually follow the islamic faith or those who follow and know something about dance.

Medina

Ok are we misunderstanding something here Metrovelvet?

This type of dance you talk about, does it have a named genre or not?

And can I ask exactly what you think it expresses..the dance itself?

Remember not costume or background or the music..but the dancing itself?

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

Hobbes if you dont mind it would be nice to hear from people who actually follow the islamic faith or those who follow and know something about dance.

People are free to comment regardless if they are Islamic or not. I stated what I understood the answer was. Music/Dance is not forbidden by most muslims unless it leads to actions that would be against the islamic faith (eg. Drinking, sex, etc). There are extremists to the religon that believe that Music/Dance is forbidden (afair, the taleban for example) but it is not the majority.

Your only hang up I see is relating to music Genre. For the record there exists Muslim music in Hip Hop, Rap, Classical, Rock. As for Ballet and Jazz I Don't know but I don't see why not.

5 Seconds with google would tell you this. Now if you have a point please feel free to make it.

Wibbs

Medina wrote:

What exactly do you see it as expressing?
Surely dance expresses lots of different things, but you have to agree that the most popular forms express sexual desire or create sexual tension.

Who was it who said, "Dancing, a vertical expression of a horizontal desire"....

I would say it really depends who the audience is and who you are dancing with.

Exactly.

I doubt it is wrong for a Muslim woman to give her husband a private lapdance?

I'd reckon it's even encouraged. Islam to be fair has far less of a hangup about sex(in marriage anyhow) than most Christian denominations(certain practices are forbidden between married couples though).

Hobbes wrote:

Now if you have a point please feel free to make it.

Yea, kinda wondering myself.