conditioning and related problems to sparring

easyontheeye

hi,

whats the best way for conditioning your body to make you tougher, e.g. having cold baths to make your skin tougher, does it work? or how do you make your forarms and shins harder so that kicks dont damage you as much? also did anyone ever experience gagging when they first used a mouth guard and how did they get use to it?

SorGan

easyontheeye wrote:

hi,

whats the best way for conditioning your body to make you tougher, e.g. having cold baths to make your skin tougher, does it work? or how do you make your forarms and shins harder so that kicks dont damage you as much? also did anyone ever experience gagging when they first used a mouth guard and how did they get use to it?

Try shouting at it..:D

Mola.mola

sorgan you remind me of my former self. 100% wise cracks and 0% helpful input. 80-20 is the way to go!

hmm body conditioning. i can't imagine cold baths with have an useful effect. you can use a medicine ball bounce if off your abs thighs etc. Heading the heavy bag with no pads. rolling glass bottles up your shin.

If you're getting this "gag reflex" with your gumshield you could consider snipping about .5 - 1cm off the end of it. if it's an expensive one, go and buy a cheapo one and do a snip on it to see if it makes any difference.

what kinda sparring you doing ? conditioning can come organically too.

RealJohn

Hitting the heavy bag without pads would be my recommendation too for toughening you shins etc. to start off. Then you can move up to marble pillars and eventually to 18 year old shot thai boxers wrapped in barbed wire.

As for conditioning your body to take punishment, I've trained with people who reckon you should get people to hit you lightly in the areas you want to toughen up and then as you get used to it, get them to start hitting you harder and build it up.
Personally, I say do lots of sparring and you build it up naturally anyway.
The best way is just not get hit that much though. Then you don't need to be tough.

SorGan

Mola.mola wrote:

sorgan you remind me of my former self. 100% wise cracks and 0% helpful input. 80-20 is the way to go!

hmm body conditioning. i can't imagine cold baths with have an useful effect. you can use a medicine ball bounce if off your abs thighs etc. Heading the heavy bag with no pads. rolling glass bottles up your shin.

Hmmm giddy spell apologys..
i agree with the cold baths , never heard of it having any positive conditioning effect, and as for conditioning the forearms, there is a lot of that in some kung fu schools but they use that rub on medicinal oil/wine to control brusing and clots...
rolling glass bottles up your shin...really?

ShaneT

SorGan wrote:

rolling glass bottles up your shin...really?

I have a rolling pin for that very purpose. It does indeed work (numbs the nerve endings around the shin bone). You needn't be rough, just roll it gently a few times (20 or so) per day and you'll be amazed at the effect. Sometimes, my three yearold likes to roll it up my shin! So, I really am talking "gently" here.

SorGan

ShaneT wrote:

I have a rolling pin for that very purpose. It does indeed work (numbs the nerve endings around the shin bone). You needn't be rough, just roll it gently a few times (20 or so) per day and you'll be amazed at the effect. Sometimes, my three yearold likes to roll it up my shin! So, I really am talking "gently" here.

I like the sound of it, is it building callous's? (spelling?)

ShaneT

SorGan wrote:

I like the sound of it, is it building callous's? (spelling?)

Nope. It just desensitizes the nerve endings allowing you to kick freely without experiencing significant pain.

Of course, in the first instance, it "sensitizes" and therefore leads to MORE pain but it's short lived.

It doesn't "harden" the bone in any way. There are many schools of thought concerning "bone conditioning". I'm inclined to believe that no amount of training impact will infact "strengthen the bone". That is not to say that it won't cause bumps and "thicken" the bone which in turn leads people to assume that the bone is therefore stronger. However, every physio I have ever known has told me, "you can't make the bone stronger".

ninjawitatitude

easyontheeye wrote:

having cold baths to make your skin tougher...

This actually makes the skin tighter and produces an anti-ageing effect, much like the expensive creams and conditioners. Mary Antoinnette was famous for it appearantly.

Millionaire

kicking hard punch bags with shins works for sure.

It took me about 3 months of kicking most days, to really toughen up shins.

start easy and work up the power of kicks over time.

As for gum guards... I had serious gagging problems. I got a special one made with a dentist and even then it gagged.

Miles Long

ShaneT wrote:

I have a rolling pin for that very purpose. It does indeed work (numbs the nerve endings around the shin bone). You needn't be rough, just roll it gently a few times (20 or so) per day and you'll be amazed at the effect. Sometimes, my three yearold likes to roll it up my shin! So, I really am talking "gently" here.

Shane,
Is that method universally applicable? Would it work on the radius and ulna, instep of your foot?

(where can I get a mini rolling-pin to condition the ridge and knife sections of my hands? )

Pingu

ShaneT wrote:

It doesn't "harden" the bone in any way. There are many schools of thought concerning "bone conditioning". I'm inclined to believe that no amount of training impact will infact "strengthen the bone". That is not to say that it won't cause bumps and "thicken" the bone which in turn leads people to assume that the bone is therefore stronger. However, every physio I have ever known has told me, "you can't make the bone stronger".

Firstly "hardness" implies an increase in brittleness, this is undesireable and not what you'll want or get, but an increase in strength is possible.

Regular impacts/forces on any area of the bone will lead to a reorganistaion of the bone structure in the area by the osteocytes leading to a better force distribution through the bone and also lead to a denser bone structure.

For example the femur in marathon/road runners are among the most dense bones going due to the large amount of cyclial loading on said bones.

So to get back on point alot of regular bag work/running/cyclical loading will lead to a stronger bone.

Basicly by using your bones they automatically increase in strength and the more you use them the stronger they get.

Roper

I think it depends on
A) what you want to achieve
How serious you are about competing
C) How much you want to enjoy your retirement

For a casual practitioner, intense conditioning is just sado-masochism. For a competitor, some type of conditioning is necessary.

ShaneT

Roper wrote:

For a casual practitioner, intense conditioning is just sado-masochism.

LOL! Not always true Roper. Not always.

Pingu wrote:

Regular impacts/forces on any area of the bone will lead to a reorganistaion of the bone structure in the area by the osteocytes leading to a better force distribution through the bone and also lead to a denser bone structure.

This is an opinion shared by many (myself included for many, many years). Yet, now we are able to find many, many, many who would suggest that this does not, in fact, occur. Or rather, that this does in fact occur but that the icreased density does not mean that the bone is "tougher". That is, more resistent to impact or an any way stronger.

Pingu wrote:

Basicly by using your bones they automatically increase in strength and the more you use them the stronger they get.

More dense, certainly. Stronger? That's the part that's up for debate. Typically, dense = strong. With bones? Not so sure.

That's science I guess. This weeks fact is next centuries, "I can't believe we ever thought that." Who knows what we'll believe in the future....

Miles Long wrote:

Shane,
Is that method universally applicable? Would it work on the radius and ulna, instep of your foot?

(where can I get a mini rolling-pin to condition the ridge and knife sections of my hands? )

Wouldn't have thought so. Although, I've never tried it and am just just assuming based on the structure of the bones involved and their position in relation to the nerves that lay above the bone and below the surface of the skin.

The structure (edge) of the shin bone is completely different to the "rounded" bones in the hands and feet. The shin bone has an "edge" almost like a blunt blade and the rolling pin just numbs the nerves (fairly painlessly increasing tolerance).

Knife hand strikes and instep strikes to something like a heavy sandbag would definitely strengthen the hands and feet though (wrap one around a scafolding (sp?) pole and work away).

I'm neither biologist nor osteopath and wouldn't claim to be. I can simply state that;

a) striking the sandbag with "rounded" bones - makes them far more resistant to pain, improves the power of the strike, and leads to a "toughness" of the striking weapon that inflicts greater pain on an opponent than "unconditioned" striking weapons. How or why it occurs biologically? I couldn't care less - it works. It's worked for me. It works for me and anyone that's felt my low kicks or tried to low kick me will back up the theory.

b) rubbing a rounded object along the shins is a very gentle and effective way to "numb the senses", allowing a smoother and less painful transition into more "aggressive" conditioning techniques (kicking door edges, wooden dummies, small children). Again, how or why this works is of little interest to me. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. It works for me, it works for almost every Kyokushin practitioner I've ever met, along with a ton of Muay Thai lads in Holland (who then like to move on to kicking concrete pillars a la Tong Po and Ramon Dekkers).

Try it, it's harmless. If it doesn't work for you within a month - forget about it. It'll take you around 2 mins/day and doesn't hurt. If you feel no improvement - stop.

Simple.

heavyweight

make sure you are actually conditioning the shin bone itself and not the muscle. the shin is the hard bone on the inner part of the lower leg. i was just kicking with the muscle part for a long time. taking and blocking a lot of low kicks is the best way to condition the legs.

ShaneT

heavyweight wrote:

make sure you are actually conditioning the shin bone itself and not the muscle. the shin is the hard bone on the inner part of the lower leg. i was just kicking with the muscle part for a long time. taking and blocking a lot of low kicks is the best way to condition the legs.

I know what you mean. But, I would suggest that it's not the flat surface of the bone that you're after (on the inner part of the leg), rather the "sharp edge" (on the very front of the lower leg).

Why hit with something heavy and flat when you can hit with something heavy and pointy?

Roper

For the shins I just flake the bottom of the heavy bag to infinity.

Essentially, bone conditioning works via calcification. The 'density' people are talking about above occurs when you make micro fissures in the bone, calcium 'spills' out to fill the cracks making the bone larger and lumpier, but not denser. (is that a word?) Its not possible to increase your bone density unless you really harness your chi There are links from calcification to bone cancer apparently.

I would say that if you want to condition, be very careful. Todays conditioning is tomorrows arthritic pain!

ShaneT

Roper wrote:

I would say that if you want to condition, be very careful. Todays conditioning is tomorrows arthritic pain!

I hear that!

Pingu

Roper wrote:

Essentially, bone conditioning works via calcification. The 'density' people are talking about above occurs when you make micro fissures in the bone, calcium 'spills' out to fill the cracks making the bone larger and lumpier, but not denser. (is that a word?)

Not true – I was more talking about bone adaptation through the transfer of exogenous signals – i.e. loading. For people not involved in any specific activity involving perpendicular strikes to the shin bone, their bones are structured to take loads in the vertical plane through their tibia.

However, bone is a dynamic tissue, in constant resorption and forma¬tion. Through this remodeling process, about 5% of cortical bone and 20% of trabecular bone is renewed per year.

So proper bone conditioning, in this case strengthening the tibia to perpendicular strikes can be achieved through a lot of bag work (loading).

Miles Long

Roper wrote:

For the shins I just flake the bottom of the heavy bag to infinity.

Essentially, bone conditioning works via calcification. The 'density' people are talking about above occurs when you make micro fissures in the bone, calcium 'spills' out to fill the cracks making the bone larger and lumpier, but not denser. (is that a word?) Its not possible to increase your bone density unless you really harness your chi There are links from calcification to bone cancer apparently.

I would say that if you want to condition, be very careful. Todays conditioning is tomorrows arthritic pain!

Tee hee , that's not really and issue for someone whose bones crack as often as mine... :eek: Bones/joints crack all the time for me, notably the neck, back, fingers, wrists, elbows, there isn't much left I know, the ol' jaw goes sometimes too...

I figure conditioning should be directly preportional to your level in training/competing. I was also told (by a Ming Chuan kung fu guy ... the brick breaking guys from a thread a while ago) that the shin conditioning moves what ever veins/blood vessels (not sure if it veins or vessels or whatever, perhaps someone could enlighting me?) are between the bone and skin to make them, eventually, unbruisable? I'm not totally convinced about that, I kinda figure that the skin would, theoretically, die as a result and get really weak reagardless of the bone underneath...

I dunno really, thoughts?

Roper

Pingu wrote:

Not true – I was more talking about bone adaptation through the transfer of exogenous signals – i.e. loading. For people not involved in any specific activity involving perpendicular strikes to the shin bone, their bones are structured to take loads in the vertical plane through their tibia.

However, bone is a dynamic tissue, in constant resorption and forma¬tion. Through this remodeling process, about 5% of cortical bone and 20% of trabecular bone is renewed per year.

So proper bone conditioning, in this case strengthening the tibia to perpendicular strikes can be achieved through a lot of bag work (loading).

We're just talking about different forms of conditioning. I was referring to the sort of wall hitting/kicking:eek: conditioning that goes on, and you're talking about what I do, which is just lumpin the heavy bag out of it!

that the shin conditioning moves what ever veins/blood vessels (not sure if it veins or vessels or whatever, perhaps someone could enlighting me?) are between the bone and skin to make them, eventually, unbruisable?

Conditioning of the body works through adaptation. This sounds to me like mutation...

kenpo_dave

Ive definately noticed a huge decrease in bruising on my shins since starting to train in Kokoro. When I first started I was getting nasty purple bruises and now theyre a much paler colour, if theres any bruise at all, still hurts though :rolleyes:

Pingu

Roper wrote:

We're just talking about different forms of conditioning. I was referring to the sort of wall hitting/kicking:eek: conditioning that goes on, and you're talking about what I do, which is just lumpin the heavy bag out of it!

Ahh i see, yeah some ppl think/were taught bad/stupid/dangerous methods and with all the best intentions end up doing more damage to themselves. that wall kicking malarkey is such a bad buzz.:(

Mola.mola

pingu are you a professional of any sort?

FiannaGym.com

Shins,
There are 2 schools of tought.
Option 1 is to roll a bottle on them, more often you would use a peice of wood, with a round side which you rock back and forth up and down te shin, and a flat side for hitting the shin. This method is considered superior to rolling a bottle (or something similar) as it allows you to "shape" the shin into a "sharp" edge.
Option 2 is to kick pads, heavy bags etc repeatedly. Starting off with soft pads and working your way up gradually. This has the effect of training strong kicks while putting a "torque" on your shin which makes it stronger (unlike option 1 which just reduces pain) as a bone, but takes longer to become "tough".
I have trained both. Option 1 was when I was a nutty kung-fu fighter who knew nothing. Option 2 was when I learned how to train properly. Do option 2 or else your illinformed (which you no longer are).

Forearms,
Far and away the best way to condition your forearms is with a partner, facing each other you both perform a 3 step star block (I cant beleive Im saying this). ALternatively you can perform various blocks on a wooden object like a dummy. Living trees are the best as they channel your chi away from your body, having a harvesting effect.

Topical treatments,
Thai linament is good, but for fast gains Ditdazhou (thats just my best attempt at phonetic spelling) is the best.

The idea that you are blocking with you forearms sets alarm bells ringing though. Just go training in a Thai-boxing gym and it will all take care of itself.

Peace

Black Swan

RealJohn wrote:

As for conditioning your body to take punishment, I've trained with people who reckon you should get people to hit you lightly in the areas you want to toughen up and then as you get used to it, get them to start hitting you harder and build it up.

Fumio Demurra (sp?) one time all free style champion of Japan and later a grand master in the USA was a strong advocate of this method he called "hardness training."

Personally, I say do lots of sparring and you build it up naturally anyway.

This is practical and makes sense to me. I cannot picture allowing someone to slap me for the rest of my life.

Pingu

Mola.mola wrote:

pingu are you a professional of any sort?

Engineer, working with medical devices. Have done work relating to bones and how the react to different stresses/stimuli

(sorry if i went too into it - was just trying to provide an explanation for my answers)

Damo W

I remember reading Jack Dempsey and boxers of his time used to soak their hands (daily) in brine to harden them.

Also that urine was used when brine was unavailable, don't know how true this is....:eek:

Hopefully it was his own.:eek:

Andrew_M

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Shins,
There are 2 schools of tought.
Option 1 is to roll a bottle on them, more often you would use a peice of wood, with a round side which you rock back and forth up and down te shin, and a flat side for hitting the shin. This method is considered superior to rolling a bottle (or something similar) as it allows you to "shape" the shin into a "sharp" edge.
Option 2 is to kick pads, heavy bags etc repeatedly. Starting off with soft pads and working your way up gradually. This has the effect of training strong kicks while putting a "torque" on your shin which makes it stronger (unlike option 1 which just reduces pain) as a bone, but takes longer to become "tough".
I have trained both. Option 1 was when I was a nutty kung-fu fighter who knew nothing. Option 2 was when I learned how to train properly. Do option 2 or else your illinformed (which you no longer are).

Forearms,
Far and away the best way to condition your forearms is with a partner, facing each other you both perform a 3 step star block (I cant beleive Im saying this). ALternatively you can perform various blocks on a wooden object like a dummy. Living trees are the best as they channel your chi away from your body, having a harvesting effect.

Topical treatments,
Thai linament is good, but for fast gains Ditdazhou (thats just my best attempt at phonetic spelling) is the best.

The idea that you are blocking with you forearms sets alarm bells ringing though. Just go training in a Thai-boxing gym and it will all take care of itself.

Peace

I too was a Kung Fool for a long time, the term conditioning back then meant to me, lumps on my knuckles, now it means being fit enough to bang out 5 rounds on the pads and recover quickly before the next set. I completely agree with the post above, and as for rolling anything on your shins, DONT!!! For God sake, go off and kick a heavy bag and do some pad work, you will increase power, better your technique and your shins will thank you for it

And as for "conditioning your body to make you tougher", like i said before as a Kung Fool i would have said punch walls, hold horse stance, clash forearms with a partner, punch each other in the stomach:eek: feckin madness, complete waste of time! Run, swim, cycle, push ups, sit ups, squats, get your body in good shape, the fitter you are, the more punishment your muscles will be able to take. Bang pads until the cows come home, for me i find that one of the best cardio workouts on the planet, check out that crossfit stuff...

There's way too many gimmicks out there, steer well clear and train like a demon in whatever your sport is and i guarentee you'll be tough as nails

Dave Joyce

Man, how many more times will we see the old rolling pin/bottle conditioning malarkey. Like some of the lads who've said it already for Christs sake, DON'T DO THAT CRAZY SHEET!! I think most people will agree that Thai fighters are some of the most conditioned fighters out there and they DON'T use that bull**** method of conditioning, as the lads said, padwork and bagwork and lots of it. Also play around with bags filled with different things such as cloth, sawdust and when they're fairly hard sand. But I would reccomend using some form of linament AND massage afterwards. Either Thai oil/bone linament/or Thai creme for bruising or indeed Dit-Da-Jow.

Any other conditioning takes so friggin long, its IMHO a waste of time for combat sports (not saying its doesn't work just takes too long!). However, if you're interested in that you should "play" with some Cimande Silat or Preying Mantis guys:D

Roper

Rolling a pin/bottle up and down your leg MIGHT condition your shin, probably will, stranger things have happened.

Kicking bags n' pads like Dave says WILL condition your shins AND you get to kick and get well conditioned in the lungs too!

Hey Dave,
Dit-Da-Jow? I've heard it works, can you get it over here?

pearsquasher

I used to do an art that had 30% sparring in it and within that conditioning would take the form of simply continually taking hits so one built up a relative resistance to physical pain. It was fun but I lost interest.

Since then I do an art doesn't involve as much sparring but it negates the need for any conditioning as such by being one that developed from armoured fighting, where any striking was used to unbalance rather than hurt an opponent - which was difficult if they're wearing iron.

Given this method, it wouldn't really matter how conditioned your opponent was without armour, because you'd be hitting them at such a time that it would effect their balance, and unless you're wearin an anti-gravity suit, you can't condition to fight gravity. In turn, this method could suit a "fight" where you didn't necessarily want to cause pain or the attacker was too drugged to feel the pain. Not all the striking is like this.. there's a place for pain too of course, and a place for usimg strikes to give distance, but its not relied upon and therefore conditioning isn't either.. in some arts. Plus clothing can absorb a lot too.

In the end though, conditioning to feel less pain can only be a bonus but i thought i'd chime in with some other factors not mentioned.

Mola.mola

Can you elaborate on strikes aimed to cause imbalance rather than pain etc. please.

columok

pearsquasher wrote:

In the end though, conditioning to feel less pain can only be a bonus but i thought i'd chime in with some other factors not mentioned.

I would have thought that there is an inherent danger to your body not knowing when damage is being done to it?

pearsquasher

Can you elaborate on strikes aimed to cause imbalance rather than pain etc. please.

Just a timing thing and I'm sure most arts have it. Some jujutsu schools call it "atemi". It's the sort of strike that shifts weight, distracts, harasses, and can be applied at particular places in the moving body or thrown out generally at the right time. It's hard to grasp, if you're not familiar with it and i would say it takes good study under a good teacher for some time to get a feel for it. Pointless trying to explain further as it's just one of those doing/feeling things.

I've experienced it on a few occasions "fo real" and its worth studying, if not equally as much as pain-based strikes, then more so, in my opinion

I would have thought that there is an inherent danger to your body not knowing when damage is being done to it

Hmm..we're not talking about cutting off nerves here.. just a little extra de-sensitivity to surface pain, in order to give an extra bit of time in a "fight". I think that apply's to sparring/sporting as well as reality. Let the pain come afterwards when the panic stops and you know you've survived, or whatever.

Mola.mola

pearsquasher wrote:

Just a timing thing and I'm sure most arts have it. Some jujutsu schools call it "atemi". It's the sort of strike that shifts weight, distracts, harasses, and can be applied at particular places in the moving body or thrown out generally at the right time. It's hard to grasp, if you're not familiar with it and i would say it takes good study under a good teacher for some time to get a feel for it. Pointless trying to explain further as it's just one of those doing/feeling things.

sounds like bull****/exaggerating to me. you're probably just hitting someone.

Dragan

ShaneT wrote:

Nope. It just desensitizes the nerve endings allowing you to kick freely without experiencing significant pain.

Of course, in the first instance, it "sensitizes" and therefore leads to MORE pain but it's short lived.

It doesn't "harden" the bone in any way. There are many schools of thought concerning "bone conditioning". I'm inclined to believe that no amount of training impact will infact "strengthen the bone". That is not to say that it won't cause bumps and "thicken" the bone which in turn leads people to assume that the bone is therefore stronger. However, every physio I have ever known has told me, "you can't make the bone stronger".

While i appreciate the method involved, a much better way, and one that does not involve self inlficted nerve damage, would be to develop the tibialus muscle the runs down the shin.

Depending on your muscle insertions this can be developed to a large degree, and will provide a massive ammount of protection for the shin bone.

Millionaire

as the lads said, working pads, and heavy hard bags thai style will tough your shins, and also develop some serious hard kicks, and its great fun!

and trust me on this... if I can harden my shins and now hit the hardest of bags full power, anyone can do it too, because I though I had the weakest shins on the planet!!!!