Should the speed limit be stuck to like glue!

macdragon76

I am of the opinion that you should be able to travel at whatever speed you deem appropriate.

There are several factors that need to be considered:
Speed limit: too high on some country roads and too low on motorways
Type of road: single or dual carriage way/motorway
Weather; Wind/Rain, ice, Fog - even Hot Weather (melting Tarmac)
Condition of road
Straight/Twistyness/Bumpiness of road
Town/Country
Visibilty of road itself (ie covered in trees)
Type of vehicle
Sparsity/existence of traffic lights
Sleepiness/hungry
The existence of Wing mirrors (not folded in!)

I could go on ad infinitum but you grt the genaeral idea.

My main point is that everyone should recognise what is safe and not safe.

They should adapt the speed to which they are comfortable with, even if this means travelling below, at or above the speed limit.

Providing the conditions (add in your own conditions!) as observed above allow this to be safe!

For example travelling on my Bike. I was travelling along a twisty country road that is marked ar 80 kmh, but is pot holed like the moon.
For a start the speed limit should be 60 kmh, so I adapted my speed (as I believe in my mortality first and foremost) to 60 kmh.
Along comes a BMW Jeep who hares around the corner. I could see him in my mirrors over the hedge before I actaully seen behind in my lane, I could tell he was trying to speed. So I gave a Beep, knowing that he had not seen me yet. He still decided to speed up anyway. And now I could see him fully in My mirror. So I gave him the slow down Arm out; up and down signal.

I could see the red Mist in his eyes, so I indicate and slow down and let him do a narrow overtake due to the size of his jeep and my panniers.

I could do the whole road rage thing but leave him off. I am not the judge and jury of his reckless fate.

The next example would be safe driving over the speed limit; The M4 is such
a beautiful motorway and relatively empty. Coming back from Tullamore to Dublin, I would on occasion be driving at 180kmh :eek: even though the limit might be 120kmh. On empty good roads this is possible, and I know my engine braking and brake pad braking limits and distance at all speeds. At this speed I would expect to keep a clear 150M distance ahead of me at all times both for avoidance and braking in time (never had to emergency brake yet; 7 yrs full bike/ 2 yrs car licence).

To summarise this long 1st post, Speed is not a killer, if that was the case 85% of all drivers would be killed.

Inappropriate speed (above and below the speed limit) for all conditions and abilities kills.

Always use the 2 second rule for any vehicle ahead of you (on the open road anyway)

Check out: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/

If you drive observantly, considerately and safely it should not matter what speed you drive.

BoozyBabe

I'm in a hurry so I've only read the 1st line.

I think you're wrong (in the 1st line anyway)

What you deem appropriate could & probably is bang on.
What I would deem appropriate would also be bang on, as would a lot of people.

BUT:- there are FAR too many people out there who haven't a clue what appropriate is, & therefore being really strict on enforcing speed limits should be a priority.

There are too many deaths each weekend because people can't judge what appropriate is.

Only my opinion

preilly79

It's good to see that you're well aware of both you and your bikes limitations, and that you drive well within those. but how many people know the limitations of their vehicles?

you know that you have to keep a 150m gap between you and the car in front when travelling at a certain speed. just take a look at theM50 motorway any day of the week and you'll see people driving at 120kmh 10m or less from the car in front. if that person had any clue they would realise they have no chance of avoiding an accident should the person in brake hard. and this is not a rare occurance, practically everybody i see does this.

in a perfect world, with excellent drivers and excellent roads your plan would work beautifully. but this is ireland ...

layke

Everyone does what ever speed they want anyway. People either go too slow or too fast.

Try going northbound from Bray the M50 after 12 midnight there are guys doing 160 khm.

gyppo

macdragon76 wrote:

I am of the opinion that you should be able to travel at whatever speed you deem appropriate.

I disagree.

macdragon76 wrote:

There are several factors that need to be considered:
Speed limit: too high on some country roads and too low on motorways
Type of road: single or dual carriage way/motorway
Weather; Wind/Rain, ice, Fog - even Hot Weather (melting Tarmac)
Condition of road
Straight/Twistyness/Bumpiness of road
Town/Country
Visibilty of road itself (ie covered in trees)
Type of vehicle
Sparsity/existence of traffic lights
Sleepiness/hungry
The existence of Wing mirrors (not folded in!)

Totally agree with all the above points.

macdragon76 wrote:

My main point is that everyone should recognise what is safe and not safe.

This is the major sticking point - not everyone does recognise what is safe or not.

macdragon76 wrote:

They should adapt the speed to which they are comfortable with, even if this means travelling below, at or above the speed limit.

In an ideal world they should, but this isnt, and they dont.

macdragon76 wrote:

For example travelling on my Bike. I was travelling along a twisty country road that is marked ar 80 kmh, but is pot holed like the moon.
For a start the speed limit should be 60 kmh, so I adapted my speed (as I believe in my mortality first and foremost) to 60 kmh.
Along comes a BMW Jeep who hares around the corner. I could see him in my mirrors over the hedge before I actaully seen behind in my lane, I could tell he was trying to speed. So I gave a Beep, knowing that he had not seen me yet. He still decided to speed up anyway. And now I could see him fully in My mirror. So I gave him the slow down Arm out; up and down signal.

I could see the red Mist in his eyes, so I indicate and slow down and let him do a narrow overtake due to the size of his jeep and my panniers.

I could do the whole road rage thing but leave him off. I am not the judge and jury of his reckless fate.

Your experience proves the point - not everyone does recognise what is safe or not. The driver of the 4x4 put you in danger.

macdragon76 wrote:

The next example would be safe driving over the speed limit; The M4 is such
a beautiful motorway and relatively empty. Coming back from Tullamore to Dublin, I would on occasion be driving at 180kmh even though the limit might be 120kmh. On empty good roads this is possible, and I know my engine braking and brake pad braking limits and distance at all speeds. At this speed I would expect to keep a clear 150M distance ahead of me at all times both for avoidance and braking in time (never had to emergency brake yet; 7 yrs full bike/ 2 yrs car licence).

Hope you never have to emergency brake - I sincerely mean this btw.

macdragon76 wrote:

Speed is not a killer.

Not on its own, provide nothing goes wrong. If something does go wrong at 180kmh though, I think its going to be a day out with the undertaker.

u2

I think that your right up 2 a point,but in reality that wouldnt work because people have different opinions of what a safe speed is (boy racer vs. oap)

Our main problem is that our speed limits are a joke. sections of the N11 having a 60km/h limit where they should be 80 or probably 100. And you can bet its places like that where the speed cameras will go in. When we've got country lanes that arent wide enough for 2 cars 2 pass at once with speed limits of 80!! and the country roads which have way 2 high speed limits are where people are being killed on our roads.

babybundy

i wont say all oaps drive slowly cause there was one left my standing the other day but the majority would happily drive at 60 kph on a motorway and in my opion there should be a minimium speed limit

macdragon76

gyppo wrote:

I disagree.

Hope you never have to emergency brake - I sincerely mean this btw.

No, I have completed the RoSPA gold cert for advanced motorbikes, which then feeds into me driving in cars.

The reason I have not had to emergency brake is;
appropriate speed
Observance
Anticipation
Observance (rear)
Avoidance (distance both front and rear)


in this specific order

However I also understand this is so much harder in a cage; (sorry; Cough!) Car .

I have however had to emergency accelerate from a red Traffic lights due to a car not stopping in time, it was christmas time (extra Gardai) and the Garda on the far side let me off and red the Riot act and the dude behind me.

gyppo

I can appreciate that you are an accomplished driver. However, what can you do if an animal decides to run across your path at the last instant when you are going at 180kmh? It doesnt matter how much training you have had - anticipation of a dumb animal coming out of the grass on the median isnt going to help.
That said, if it happens at 120kmh, it wont do you any favours then either.

el tel

As long as there are people whose own judgement allows them to drive without seat belts, with a few beers in them or with a phone to their ear then I don't think the choice of speed limits should be left to people's discretion. Basically we are just too dumb to be left to our own devices.

macdragon76

gyppo wrote:

I can appreciate that you are an accomplished driver. However, what can you do if an animal decides to run across your path at the last instant when you are going at 180kmh? It doesnt matter how much training you have had - anticipation of a dumb animal coming out of the grass on the median isnt going to help.
That said, if it happens at 120kmh, it wont do you any favours then either.

Agreed, but then did I hear last week, that a toddler was killed in their driveway, when reversing out.

Speed at point if impact 3 kmh!

Excessive speed does not kill; no ifs buts or maybes.

it is lack of observance and attentitiveness plus fate = outcome.

However I do appreciate that at certain speeds the chances of survival are greater within a car; however it is proven that all pedestrians who are struck head on at 30 mph will be killed

ianobrien

gyppo wrote:

I can appreciate that you are an accomplished driver. However, what can you do if an animal decides to run across your path at the last instant when you are going at 180kmh? It doesnt matter how much training you have had - anticipation of a dumb animal coming out of the grass on the median isnt going to help.
That said, if it happens at 120kmh, it wont do you any favours then either.

Speaking of dumb animals. I was driving through town (Cork City) doing about 40kph. The traffic in the other lane was stopped, and a man of 40 ran out from behind a truck stopped in traffic! The bloke was pushing a hand cart, and came out in a full run.

I don't think that if I hit him even at 40kph that he would have walked away.

My point is that you will always have to emergency brake as things happen (a 40year old man runs out from behind a truck) and if taken to the extreme, the limits should be zero, as then the traffic is at it's safest!

macdragon76

ianobrien wrote:

Speaking of dumb animals. I was driving through town (Cork City) doing about 40kph. The traffic in the other lane was stopped, and a man of 40 ran out from behind a truck stopped in traffic! The bloke was pushing a hand cart, and came out in a full run.

I don't think that if I hit him even at 40kph that he would have walked away.

My point is that you will always have to emergency brake as things happen (a 40year old man runs out from behind a truck) and if taken to the extreme, the limits should be zero, as then the traffic is at it's safest!

This is a classic case of anticaipation and observance.

Within stopped or slow traffic I always give buses and trucks or anything with a height above a walking persons, a wide berth.

gyppo

I did agree with you on your original post "Speed is not a killer" .
Its the sudden stop that usually is.

SouperComputer

and I know my engine braking and brake pad braking limits and distance at all speeds.

/pedant

Brakes dont stop your car, tyres do!

I will agree that innapropiate use of speed is an important factor, rather than exceeding a posted limit though.

macdragon76

SouperComputer wrote:

/pedant

Brakes dont stop your car, tyres do!

Ba da Boom Tisch!

I bet you're here all week!:D

green-blood

I would agree 100% as soon as every driver has the same level of advanced training, unfortunately, they (me) don't.

Education + Training + Enforcement on inappropriate speed / dangerous driving.

macdragon76

green-blood wrote:

I would agree 100% as soon as every driver has the same level of advanced training, unfortunately, they (me) don't.

Education + Training

I would not expect the Gov to set this up, as I had to do my RoSPA gold cert and pay for this myself.

Anan1

BoozyBabe wrote:

I'm in a hurry so I've only read the 1st line.

I think you're wrong (in the 1st line anyway)

But you still found time and saw fit to reply to something you haven't even read?? Stop & think for a minute..:rolleyes:

Having read the OP's post, I'm in agreement with it. It must be noted though that, having consciously decided to disregard a law, there's no room for whinging when one gets caught.;)

Saruman

In this country yes it has to be unless everyone changes.
In the US however police will only pull you over if you are exceeding the limit to the point you are clearly moving faster than other traffic. So if the speed limit is 55 and most of the cars are doing about 60 as long as you are at the same speed as the rest of traffic you are fine... if you zip by though at 70 they will do you.
Makes sense... instead of speed traps on a motorway forcing people to Jam on and nearly cause an accident and then a huge jam behind where no one can possibly speed anyway as traffic has pretty much stopped!
That happend once inbound on the N4 at Liexlip turn off. everyone driving alon at 70 (before kms) and then all of a sudden traffic stop, everyone had to Jam on and pray... after a few mins traffic moved slightly and as soon as we passed a garda with a handheld it was fine again!!!

Anan1

Saruman wrote:

Makes sense... instead of speed traps on a motorway forcing people to Jam on and nearly cause an accident and then a huge jam behind where no one can possibly speed anyway as traffic has pretty much stopped!
That happend once inbound on the N4 at Liexlip turn off. everyone driving alon at 70 (before kms) and then all of a sudden traffic stop, everyone had to Jam on and pray... after a few mins traffic moved slightly and as soon as we passed a garda with a handheld it was fine again!!!

It's an immutable law of motoring in this country that, no matter what speed a car is travelling at, the driver will jam on the brakes when they see a Garda car/bike/speed check.

Saruman

I know.. its dangerous.. point was if the checks were like in the US on motorways and dual carriageways then this would not happen... the problems are on minor roads.. not motorways.

Idleater

Anan1 wrote:

It's an immutable law of motoring in this country that, no matter what speed a car is travelling at, the driver will jam on the brakes when they see a Garda car/bike/speed check.

While true, if you drive with the anticipation and observation described by the OP, you could help to reduce the effects of this traffic jam.

By simply allowing a greater distance between you and the vehicle in front (essentially increasing the distance to approx 2/3 seconds like what in theory it should be) you give yourself a "buffer" to slow gradually rather than slamming on the brakes when the muppet in front stands on their brakes.

This is what causes "phantom traffic jams" because the distance reduces and severity of the braking increases down the line. The first muppet lifts off the accelerator (instinctivly), the second who is too close behind lifts and eases on the brakes, the third also too close brakes, the fourth brakes more etc etc.

If you leave a big enough gap, you can even absorb the first muppets "lift" and ease back the rest of the traffic over a greater distance therefore never generating a traffic jam in the first place.


L.

Savman

macdragon76 wrote:

I am of the opinion that you should be able to travel at whatever speed you deem appropriate.

So you would encourage civil disobedience? Your "opinion" is well written and obviously well thought out, but this is not some classroom rule you're talking about. It's the law and by disregarding it you are taking it into your own hands and saying "forget what the road authorities say, I know best".

Speed is not a killer

Now that's just nonsense :rolleyes:. The word itself may not harm anyone but its been well documented that its a contributing factor in many cases. I think its fair to say speed + driver error = cause of most accidents. In any case, if you keep your speed down and try not to make errors you should be ok but to suggest speed is "not a killer" is just wrong and sounds like you're just trying to justify speedy driving.

There are several factors that need to be considered:
Speed limit: too high on some country roads and too low on motorways
Type of road: single or dual carriage way/motorway
Weather; Wind/Rain, ice, Fog - even Hot Weather (melting Tarmac)
Condition of road
Straight/Twistyness/Bumpiness of road
Town/Country
Visibilty of road itself (ie covered in trees)
Type of vehicle
Sparsity/existence of traffic lights
Sleepiness/hungry
The existence of Wing mirrors (not folded in!)

Most of which can be manouevered better at lower speeds.

With all the road carnage lately I've come to realise that it really is fairly simple, just slow down. :rolleyes:

Anan1

nereid wrote:

While true, if you drive with the anticipation and observation described by the OP, you could help to reduce the effects of this traffic jam.

...If you leave a big enough gap, you can even absorb the first muppets "lift" and ease back the rest of the traffic over a greater distance therefore never generating a traffic jam in the first place.


L.

If you're the second car, sure. If you're back far enough, however, you'll be brought to a standstill regardless.

johnnygroup

Savman wrote:

So you would encourage civil disobedience? you are taking it into your own hands and saying "forget what the road authorities say, know best".

No, not necessarily, I am saying that speed limits should only be viewed as a guidline and your speed should be adapted to cover the enviromental conditions.

If you need to drive safely below, at, or above the speed (and considerately) then you should be allowed to do so by other users.

I have spent years formulating this argument and have gotten agreement from some Gardai who will remain unnamed as they have to uphold the law.

I think you misunderstand me, I am a safety nut first and foremost.

I have seen numerous Accidents on the N11 and M50, Only 2 were speed related incidents.

I follow up on accidents as part of my job.

The issues that I have come across in the past 2 months prove categorically that speeding is not the cause of crashes.

The issues that I have had to collate range from; kids not being strapped in, spilt coffee, mobile phone texting, pothole crash, woman putting make up, lorry driver using mirrors and clipped the side of a car, Numerous roundabout and traffic light incidents.

All of these incidents happened at or below the speed limit.

I could go on and on.

My main point statistically stands that speeding is not as much of a killer as the media likes to spin.

Accidents are caused by inattentiveness lack of observance ,road mismangement, plain stupidity, (Makeup, coffee), Drunkiness (not mentioned up until now)

Now most fatalities happen due to inappropriate speeding on country roads, Fact.

Even though they happen below the speed limit, it should and in some cases is being called speeding, We are currently reviewing all speed limits to match the roads.

I hope this clarifies a few of my earlier points.

Just because I speed (less than 5% of time) does not make me a dangerous nut.

Afterall I would see first hand the outcomes.

Hagar

macdragon76 wrote:

Ba da Boom Tisch!
I bet you're here all week!:D

With your driving attitude you may not be. Ba da Boom Crash!

peasant

We are currently reviewing all speed limits to match the roads

.


Who is "we" ??

gyppo

johnnygroup wrote:

No, not necessarily, I am saying that speed limits should only be viewed as a guidline and your speed should be adapted to cover the enviromental conditions.

Speed limits are the maximum permissible limits under optimum road conditions.

johnnygroup wrote:

The issues that I have had to collate range from; kids not being strapped in, spilt coffee, mobile phone texting, pothole crash, woman putting make up, lorry driver using mirrors and clipped the side of a car, Numerous roundabout and traffic light incidents.

All of these incidents happened at or below the speed limit.

Potholes? Surely if the driver was driving at a speed comensurate with the road surface condition, they should be able to control the car, even if they do hit a bad pothole?

johnnygroup wrote:

My main point statistically stands that speeding is not as much of a killer as the media likes to spin.

Perhaps so, but I'm sure many more people would be alive if they had been going slower.

johnnygroup wrote:

Accidents are caused by inattentiveness lack of observance ,road mismangement, plain stupidity, (Makeup, coffee), Drunkiness (not mentioned up until now)

You could still include excessive speed as a factor. Every winter, take a look at all the cars written off when the roads are icy - the reason this happens is because they were driving too fast for the road conditions. I'm sure that many were well under the legal speed limit.

johnnygroup wrote:

Just because I speed (less than 5% of time) does not make me a dangerous nut.

I'm sure it doesnt. I just hope that the 5% time you do remains uneventful.

ninty9er

johnnygroup wrote:

Accidents are caused by inattentiveness lack of observance ,road mismangement, plain stupidity, (Makeup, coffee), Drunkiness (not mentioned up until now)

Now most fatalities happen due to inappropriate speeding on country roads, Fact.

Even though they happen below the speed limit, it should and in some cases is being called speeding, We are currently reviewing all speed limits to match the roads.

Did you mean inappropriate driving.

Most accidents happen because of driver error.

Most deaths occur because of no seatbelts

Hagar

ninty9er wrote:

Most deaths occur because of no seatbelts

Agreed. But why do the accidents that cause the deaths occur?
Oh yeah, driver error, like going too fast?

ninty9er

driving fast can be driver error but not all (or even most that I see) is going fast.