What is "Dirty Boxing"

Millionaire

What exactly is mean my "Dirty Boxing"?

What does it contain?

What sort of strikes etc?

When or what is it used for?


Thanks

Gerry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_boxing

Randy Couture & Dan Henderson are noted for using it in MMA.

MartinC2006

With Randy you'll most often see if where he'll pull down the head with one arm then uppercut with the other at the same time. In pro boxing I guess the best example is in the clinch where you'll see a hook but pass the jaw and follow with forarm/elbow towards the jaw.

Martin.

Miles Long

It's the stand up version of Mud Wrestling

Colm_OReilly

As far as I'm aware it's boxing but with strikes in the clinch and the "dirty" shots like forearm strikes, elbows etc.

Boxing, but without the queensbury rules.

Musashi

I've read interviews with older boxers lamenting the banning of striking on the "break" as it was a KO shot for some.
It would now be construed as "Dirty Boxing"?

PRevious to "Queensbury Rules" clinching, throwing and "purling" to the shins was allowed, who knows what else has been lost? Old timey Bareknuckle may have been the best ever Western MA?

Roper

Eh, it still is the best Western MA. Competition gets more and more people involved, pushes things to higher levels in terms of conditioning, coaching... competition is great, look what its done for judo.

FiannaGym.com

Basically it refers to skillful "non-standard" boxing. For example, Jens Pulver often throws a cross then a looping left to secure a neck-tie, from there he keeps his elbows tight and forward and from the neck-tie position uses various strikes. Key to the dirty box is the threat of takedown and the strong neck-tie. If either are missing generally it doesnt work. Generally wrestlers are best at dirty boxing for a couple of reason; they are good at maintaining inside control and they understand positional dominance better. Dirty box works really well when your against the cage or ropes, because control, and the likelyhood of a sloppy "break", increases.

Peace

Baggio...

Is it more on the lines of "Bare knuckle Boxing"? Cestari covers a shed load of dirty shots on his DVD "OS5".

Although, I've seen some of Geoff Thompson's Boxing stuff and he also covers some cool cheap shots. Thumb into the eye, etc.

FiannaGym.com

Sorry, my post referred to "Dirty boxing" in the modern sense, a Mixed Martial Arts sporting term. Of course, street fighting, bareknuckle and all the rest have "dirty boxing". I just refer to the MMA term because it is trained, functional and proven.

Of course, there's always Chuck, but thats not dirty boxing, thats KENPO!!!!

Peace

Millionaire

Great thanks all for info!

I saw a DVD for sale a long while back, of some old skool USA Western Boxing coach, teaching dirty boxing as in done in older days. I often though of buying it.

When seeing footage of older boxing from like 60 - 70 years ago, for some reason it seems much rougher???

Also got a DVD recently featuring unlicensed boxing from UK, and ex criminal Roy Shaw VS Lenny Mcleans , and Shaw Vs Donny Adams... which is rought and tough , but kinds funny too! did anyone see this?

Pro. F

Millionaire wrote:

Also got a DVD recently featuring unlicensed boxing from UK, and ex criminal Roy Shaw VS Lenny Mcleans , and Shaw Vs Donny Adams... which is rought and tough , but kinds funny too! did anyone see this?

hey Mil (i haven't seen this) when you say its kinda funny is it that they were a bit lacking in technique or is it just all the cockney rhyming slang etc?

Roper

Hey,

I think some people are mixing up dirty shots, which are available to anyone, and "Dirty Boxing" which is a highly skillful method of fighting in the clinch and requires extensive training to be proficient at.

Old skool boxing, combative techniques, bare-knuckle boxing, groin strikes etc. are not dirty boxing as I think the OP meant it.

For a prime example see Couture vs. Belfort II. A wrestler taking apart an excellent striker through strikes in the clinch range.

kenpo_dave

Roper wrote:

Hey,

I think some people are mixing up dirty shots, which are available to anyone, and "Dirty Boxing" which is a highly skillful method of fighting in the clinch and requires extensive training to be proficient at.

Old skool boxing, combative techniques, bare-knuckle boxing, groin strikes etc. are not dirty boxing as I think the OP meant it.

For a prime example see Couture vs. Belfort II. A wrestler taking apart an excellent striker through strikes in the clinch range.

But every type of striking requires "extensive training to be proficient at". Why would "Dirty Boxing" be any different. In Kenpo when someone comes into Clinch range we use loads of extremely short range strikes - knees, elbows, hooking punches and palms strikes, rabbit punches etc. So why are they dirty shots in Kenpo and other styles and "Dirty Boxing" in Boxing and MMA. How is it different? (leaving training methods aside).

Looking forward to training later

OSU,

Dave.

Roper

Not implying that they're not, its just that the OP meant (I assume) Dirty Boxing as it apllied to MMA.

I was just clearing that up for the sake of seperating the two discussions, one about the MMA tactic, and one about dirty shots.

kenpo_dave

Roper wrote:

Not implying that they're not, its just that the OP meant (I assume) Dirty Boxing as it apllied to MMA.

I was just clearing that up for the sake of seperating the two discussions, one about the MMA tactic, and one about dirty shots.

Ok, cool. Talk to you later.

FiannaGym.com

kenpo_dave wrote:

But every type of striking requires "extensive training to be proficient at". Why would "Dirty Boxing" be any different. In Kenpo when someone comes into Clinch range we use loads of extremely short range strikes - knees, elbows, hooking punches and palms strikes, rabbit punches etc. So why are they dirty shots in Kenpo and other styles and "Dirty Boxing" in Boxing and MMA. How is it different? (leaving training methods aside).

It's quite simple, "Dirty Boxing" relies on positional control through a variety of elements, elements found primarily in wrestling. Thats why wrestlers can use this to a high level and win fights. Kenpo guys cant. Hope that helps, enjoy your training my man.

Peace

EDIT: Sorry there is another point I should make regarding the semantics of this. "Dirty boxing" is not a series of dirty shots or whatever, infact everything can be clean and legal, with the exception of striking while using the neck-tie which (I think) is illegal in boxing. "Dirty boxing" is a coherent style or strategy in MMA, like "sprawl and brawl", "ground and pound", or "lay and pray". Dirty boxing is different of course... the name doesnt rhyme.

Peace

ShaneT

Dirty Boxing used to be a term used to describe shots thrown in a boxing match that were not allowed within the rules. Later, it became a skill in it's own right. Within MMA it has come to represent the concept of "striking from within the clinch" (a skill particularly useful to wrestlers that weren't bound by the rules of boxing in freefights), of course, that doesn't mean to suggest that there is no "in fighting" in boxing (which of course there is).

End result: fist strikes that one typically wouldn't expect to see thrown in a boxing match get labelled as "dirty boxing".

As usual, different people use the same words to signify different things in different contexts. Since MMA is a SPORT that allows multiple styles to compete against eachother, it's terminology is still evolving (in it's own right and in an effort to avoid the terminology that is associated with the the art on display in the ring/cage, whilst replacing it with audience friendly generic terms AND since the terminolgy within the given styles are evolving too). Then, that goes out the window when someone goes to the ground. When that happens, announcers instanly label any form of submission work as "BJJ" even if the guy on the ground doesn't know the difference between BJJ, a BJ and Rowntrees Fruit Pastille. With the exception of a chosen few that just use the term "the ground game" (all hail those wise men).

Of course, sometimes I really wonder what's wrong with the people that keep getting so worked over the "origins of a given term".

One mans "dirty boxing" is another mans "in fighting", another mans "clinch striking", another mans "street fighting", another mans "dressing up in rubber gear with heavy weights attached to your penis and having a fight in a bowl of jelly with a stripper".

Who really cares? :rolleyes:

Michael O Leary

Hi guys,

I don't know if I posted something like this before. Anyway I read a book a few years ago called "Boxing as a Martial Art". Scuttery1 loaned it to me for the brief time he was a WT guy.

Anyway the book discussed how old time boxing can be used for self-defence. ie punching with a verticle fist, weight on the back leg, falling step, etc, and I found it interesting because it is all the same as basic Wing Tsun. The last chapter dealt with what he called "dirty boxing" such as elbow strikes, etc as posted by other contributers and again all contained in Wing Tsun. I would imagine that all the dirty stuff is left over from when wrestling and boxing were taught as one and it is interesting to note that old European swordsmanship contained throws, etc.

Maybe if boxing and wrestling combined again and focused on self-defence it could end up as,,,,oh, I don't know, Wing Tsun?:D

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

SorGan

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi guys,

I don't know if I posted something like this before. Anyway I read a book a few years ago called "Boxing as a Martial Art". Scuttery1 loaned it to me for the brief time he was a WT guy.

Anyway the book discussed how old time boxing can be used for self-defence. ie punching with a verticle fist, weight on the back leg, falling step, etc, and I found it interesting because it is all the same as basic Wing Tsun. The last chapter dealt with what he called "dirty boxing" such as elbow strikes, etc as posted by other contributers and again all contained in Wing Tsun. I would imagine that all the dirty stuff is left over from when wrestling and boxing were taught as one and it is interesting to note that old European swordsmanship contained throws, etc.

Maybe if boxing and wrestling combined again and focused on self-defence it could end up as,,,,oh, I don't know, Wing Tsun?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Hi michael, it just struck me when you mentioned scuttery1 that escrima contains DUMOG(grappling),and panuntukan(fist fighting)
as im sure ya know

Panuntukan literally translate to "fist fighting". In this area of training the use of various natural weapons of the human body is taught, such as: finger jabs to the eye, fist strike, palm strike, hammer fist, forearm smashes, elbow strikes, head butts, shoulder and hip smashes. Panuntukan is referred to as "dirty boxing".

Dumog Terminology

Kamrus – to scratch the face, the skin
Gusnit – to pail off the skin, remove the hair
Puwakon – clawing the throat, removing the esophagus
Pungkoy – Vigorous blow to the back of the head
Hulbot – the pull the head or pull the hair
Waslik – to pull and throw
Kumus – to smash the face area
Lukit – to thrust the finger into the eye socket and take the eyes out
Kagat – to bite the skin fingers, nose and ears
Guba – to elbow the chest area and break the sternum
Itlogan – to grab and squeeze the balls (groin)
Pungol – to hold the head, break the neck remove from the body

ShaneT

Michael O Leary wrote:

Maybe if boxing and wrestling combined again and focused on self-defence it could end up as,,,,oh, I don't know, Wing Tsun?:D

Nah. I very much respect your posts but that's just plain silly.

Millionaire

I read somewhere that old time boxer Jack Dempsey (correct me if I got wrong guy), felt that modern day boxing was not the art of boxing as done in his day, and he felt alot of modern fighters had lost the true art of boxing.

Michael O Leary

ShaneT wrote:

Nah. I very much respect your posts but that's just plain silly.

Yeah I know. The sillyness was intentional.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

Millionaire wrote:

I read somewhere that old time boxer Jack Dempsey (correct me if I got wrong guy), felt that modern day boxing was not the art of boxing as done in his day, and he felt alot of modern fighters had lost the true art of boxing.

Hi Millionaire,

This is taken from a Wing Tsun book called "On Single Combat".

"In 1950, Dempsey expressed very strong criticisms concerning the state of modern boxing which, in his opinion, had lost the knowledge of the power line and the correct contact area. Neither did he find a good word to say about contemporary boxing trainers. When boxers like himself had initiated a real boxing boom, "charlatans and moneymakers jumped on the band wagon; men who never boxed before called themselves trainers. They opened sports centers where they taught nothing but mistakes. Their incorrectly trained students attempted careers as fighters but without success. They then hung up their gloves to become boxing trainers themselves."

Strangly enough, Dempsey saw himself not so much as a boxer but as a fist-fighter: "Too many amateur teachers have completely forgotten that the purpose of teaching people to box is to show how to defend themselves with their fists."

Dempsey was "deeply shocked by the vague, incomplete and distorted self-defence concepts of many so-called experts", and came to the conclusion that self-defence was being taught incorrectly almost everwhere. According to Dempsey, one of the most serious errors that self-defence instructors make is that: "The extremely inportant line of power seems to have been forgotten. The students are not sufficiently informed about the need to hit the opponent with the three knuckles."

Furthermore, todays students do not learn, "the explosive straightline punch with the falling step", skills which Dempsey describes as the lost art."

Hope this helps.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

FiannaGym.com

Some people think Wing Chun originated from Westerners teaching boxing in Canton, some what more plausable than the blind nun story, which I prefer.

Some of the strikers on here seem to miss the point about "dirty boxing" as a functional method of fighting.

Every system has dirty strikes. You hear the rhetoric all the time, "I do traditional (martial art x) I add dirt and some hard sparring and its great for real situations" etc etc.

The only way "dirty boxing" has become a realistic and effective form of fighting is not grounded in a series of short shots, elbows, rabit punches, punching like an old fashioned boxer, or anything else of that nature.

Infact it is exactly the same reason that people reading this thread have misunderstood it, that it is so effective against strikers...

The important, crucial element of "Dirty Boxing" is, and Ive said it lots already, positional control. It seems like a lot of strikers hear that and just ignore it, wrestlers hear it and understand it. In order to use this form of fighting effectively you need to control the posture, centering and hooks of your oponent. Otherwise it just wont work and you'll be out struck by a better striker.

So remember, if you wanna work your dirty boxing its all about controling your oponent, not hitting him.

Peace

Roper

Fianna has taken a neck tie on the correct and is uppercutting....

Michael O Leary

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Some people think Wing Chun originated from Westerners teaching boxing in Canton, some what more plausable than the blind nun story, which I prefer.

Hi Pearse,

Interesting theory and one I had never heard before. However I think it is untrue as I think the nun story is untrue together with the view that Kung-Fu developed from Indian martial arts which developed from unarmed western martial arts brought to India by Alexander the Great.

When reading the book, "Mastering Ju-Jitsu" (Brazilian) by Renzo Gracie, I was interested in his analysis of the development of martial arts where he feels that martial arts developed separetly rather than from a single source, hence Ju-Jitsu does not come from Da Mo and the Shaolin Temple.

I think that when people develop a martial arts system for self-defence and keep to this specific aim that no matter where in the world or what society you live in that your art will take on certain elements, one example being the verticle fist when punching bareknuckle.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Black Swan

Watch the last fight in the film, "Million Dollar Baby." Now, that's dirty boxing!

Dave Joyce

As Sorgan mentioned Panantukan, I just thought people might be interested in the following. If you look at old North American boxers they used to hold a similar guard to Europeans but after the turn of the 20th century they adopted a higher guard which was an influence of the servicemen who had done a lot of boxing and had servered in SE Asia (particularly the Philippines). The Filipinos Panantukan was also referred to as dirty boxing and incorporated into their bladework but also had an empty hands version and they showed the Americans how open they were with the low guard when it came to been punched and thrust with a blade.

Roper

I think I remember reading a bit about the Philipino influence on Western Boxing a few years ago. The US had a strong military presence in the Philipines (they used to own it:o). It was mentioned as an aside in whatever book it was but there were no details on what exactly the influence was. And now I know. Cheers Dave!

SorGan

Dave Joyce wrote:

As Sorgan mentioned Panantukan, I just thought people might be interested in the following. If you look at old North American boxers they used to hold a similar guard to Europeans but after the turn of the 20th century they adopted a higher guard which was an influence of the servicemen who had done a lot of boxing and had servered in SE Asia (particularly the Philippines). The Filipinos Panantukan was also referred to as dirty boxing and incorporated into their bladework but also had an empty hands version and they showed the Americans how open they were with the low guard when it came to been punched and thrust with a blade.

Good man dave i didnt know that,:)

scuttery1

Howdy all,
If yer interested here's a link to an article by Guro Krishna Godhania about the development of Phillipino boxing.

http://www.krishnagodhania.org/articles/boxing.html

SorGan

scuttery1 wrote:

Howdy all,
If yer interested here's a link to an article by Guro Krishna Godhania about the development of Phillipino boxing.

http://www.krishnagodhania.org/articles/boxing.html

Cheers John, interesting stuff..