Evaluation of Good and Evil Works, Salvation & Forgiveness According to Christianity

babyvaio

Since I don't know much about this very critical topic (according to Christian belief), I'd like to ask a few questions based on my current knowledge (just to clarify some things in my head).

All the questions however do include that only God Almighty knows who goes to Paradise and who goes to Hell. People can only assume what is right or wrong, but still, I believe it does make sense to discuss this critical topic.

1. Are people who do bad/evil/rotten works/deeds suppose to go to Paradise if they accept Jesus as - strictly according to Christian belief - son of God?
2. Assuming that one believes in statement in bullet 1. and does absolutely nothing good anymore in ones life, but only the BER (bad/evil/rotten), does this implicate one will go to Heaven?
3. Is it enough to only have faith (as described in 1.) and do nothing and still to go to Heaven - is it not true, that belief/faith has to be backed up by doing good works? If this is so, where is justice here? This implies that God's Law is unjust, however that cannot be.
4. Also, is there any punishment for doing the BER works in Christianity at all?
5. Finally, who forgives sins according to Christianity, God or the Church? In other words, if ones commits a terrible thing and it's marked as a huge sin, one asks who exactly for forgiveness? Directly His Creator God Almighty or God's creatures, such as the church fathers? If the church fathers, why is it that there is an obstacle in a human being talking to His Creator? I mean, who authorized the Church what is to be forgiven and what not?

I would appreciate if your thoughts are backed up by the Bible and only by the Bible. Thanks.

Dades

That sounds like a really convoluted way of saying, is is enough to believe Jesus is the son of God to go to heaven, or do you have to do good deeds too?

Re who forgives sins: since God is invisible and doesn't speak of course you need a priest to tell you. I assume they are "trained" to "know" when God would forgive you.

Bible reference: Atheist, 20:7

robindch

> 1. Are people who do bad/evil/rotten works/deeds suppose to go to Paradise if they accept Jesus as son of God?

Depends on who you ask. Protestants will generally tend to say yes, while catholics and orthodox will generally tend to say no. If you fail to get into heaven, then you can spend time in purgatory, working off your imperfections, or simply go straight to hell. Both sides of the argument, like the thing about god coming in three bits, can be backed up or rejected according to selective quotations from the bible.

People like me will say that the reason that protestantism (baptists, presbyterianism etc) is growing, while catholicism and orthodox belief is static or decreasing, is simply because the biological cost of protestant belief, expressed as the cost of 'being nice', is simply lower, for the same reward (life after you die).

> 2. does absolutely nothing good anymore in ones life, will go to Heaven?

See (1)

> 3. where is justice here? This implies that God's Law is unjust, however that cannot be.

You are assuming that god exists, that god has made a law, and that god's law must be just. None of these three assumptions have any evidence outside of some stories written in a very old book.

> 4. Also, is there any punishment for doing the BER works in Christianity at all?

See (1)

> 5. Finally, who forgives sins according to Christianity, God or the Church?

Most, if not all, sides believe that god forgives sins, but some denominations (catholic, orthodox) say that the rank and file believers shouldn't really be speaking with god directly about this, and go through the church instead. I'm sure they have a biblical reference for this useful and very lucrative and, er, indulgent, function of the church.

babyvaio

The Atheist wrote:

That sounds like a really convoluted way of saying, is is enough to believe Jesus is the son of God to go to heaven, or do you have to do good deeds too?

Re who forgives sins: since God is invisible and doesn't speak of course you need a priest to tell you. I assume they are "trained" to "know" when God would forgive you.

Bible reference: Atheist, 20:7

I appreciate your effort - only if your intentions were honest - but I can't accept answers from atheists. And answers from atheists who think that they can quote the Bible. Sorry.

I can look it up myself, but I cannot explain the verses to me just like that, same as you, that's why I asked the question in the 1st place.

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

You are assuming that god exists, that god has made a law, and that god's law must be just. None of these three assumptions have any evidence outside of some stories written in a very old book.

I'm glad to inform you that you are the perfect proof that God exists. That's being called outside the book, as you call it.

Sorry, but again another persistant non-believer trying to shed some light from a very dark place they're in.

Please - only those whose intentions are honest and those who 1st of all believe that God exists. I see no point discussing this with pagans nor atheists - this thread is not supposed to question God's existence. If you wana talk about that, then I suggest you go and chain yourselves to Paganism or Atheism threads. Here' I'll help you with the links:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=256
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

Scofflaw

babyvaio wrote:

I'm glad to inform you that you are the perfect proof that God exists. That's being called outside the book, as you call it.

Sorry, but again another persistant non-believer trying to shed some light from a very dark place they're in.

Please - only those whose intentions are honest and those who 1st of all believe that God exists. I see no point discussing this with pagans nor atheists - this thread is not supposed to question God's existence. If you wana talk about that, then I suggest you go and chain yourselves to Paganism or Atheism threads. Here' I'll help you with the links:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=256
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

It's been said before, but it obviously needs pointing out again - this is the Christianity forum, not the Christian forum. That means that those of other faiths, and none, are entitled to freely post here, Mr-compass-pointing-to-the-Kaaba.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

babyvaio wrote:

5. Finally, who forgives sins according to Christianity, God or the Church? In other words, if ones commits a terrible thing and it's marked as a huge sin, one asks who exactly for forgiveness?

I will make this real simple so you can get it first time.

Who forgives sins, not God. The person you need forgiveness from is the same person you sinned against. He/She was the one that got hurt by your actions.

babyvaio

Scofflaw wrote:

It's been said before, but it obviously needs pointing out again - this is the Christianity forum, not the Christian forum. That means that those of other faiths, and none, are entitled to freely post here, Mr-compass-pointing-to-the-Kaaba.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maybe, but still - my questions assume i.e. that there is a traffic light and I'm trying to ask why the green/yellow/red on it. Now some folks wana say that there is traffic light and then they wana explain the gree/yellow/red.

Now is that gona do any good I ask you? So if they atheists/pagans/whatever then in their answers they are suppose to assume that God exists, and to start building their answers from that point. But instead, they're denying Him, so what's the point in giving useless answers?

So whatever their belief is - they are suppose to assume the conditions of the question to give a straight answer - and the condition is that God exists.

I'm not gona say to the professor when I'm being asked why xyz causes abc? i.e. well, there is no xyz therefore your question is meaningless my dear professor.

I guess we both know I'd never pass that exam.
I hope this make sense now.

robindch

> only those whose intentions are honest and those who 1st of all believe
> that God exists.

Are you implying that my intentions are dishonest?

> I see no point discussing this with pagans nor atheists

Most, perhaps even all, of the atheists who post here were christians at some stage in their lives and most are at least as well-informed about religion as you are, and some are better-informed.

Slagging off atheists and "pagans" as being in the "dark" and "chained" does not present you, or the religion to which you belong, in a very positive light.

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

I will make this real simple so you can get it first time.

Who forgives sins, not God. The person you need forgiveness from is the same person you sinned against. He/She was the one that got hurt by your actions.

If I do something bad to you for example, I agree then that you should forgive me before God does, but this is a particular case where I commited a sin against another being and not against God Himself.

What about sins against God directly? Like if some one says a few ugly and nasty words directly to God? Then what? Who forgives that if not God? You can't forgive that, in other words none of the Church fathers can forgive that.

They can claim whatever they want, but somehow I see no authorization from God to them to do so. And BTW, humans incl. the Church leaders simply do not know if a sin if forgiven or not. Please don't claim that they do? And if so, how exactly can you explain that? :rolleyes:

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

> only those whose intentions are honest and those who 1st of all believe
> that God exists.

Are you implying that my intentions are dishonest?

> I see no point discussing this with pagans nor atheists

Most, perhaps even all, of the atheists who post here were christians at some stage in their lives and most are at least as well-informed about religion as you are, and some are better-informed.

Slagging off atheists and "pagans" as being in the "dark" and "chained" does not present you, or the religion to which you belong, in a very positive light.

I don't think that using the word pagans is slagging, there's even a thread using that very word, which means it can be used here on the forum.

Yes, I do not think you were honest 'cos you're trying to mess up my qeustion by denying part of the question itself - that part of the question is its assumption that God exists - so if I was slagging you then you were slagging me with changing the very base my question and that is that God exists.

Actually, God Almighty Himself said that they are deaf and blind, so they cannot hear nor see (in the Original Script a different language is used - but that's the meaning when translated). Therefore - it is not slagging but the truth.

Asiaprod

babyvaio wrote:

I'm not gona say to the professor when I'm being asked why xyz causes abc? i.e. well, there is no xyz therefore your question is meaningless my dear professor.

Why? if there is no xyz there cannot be any answer, so any answer given IS meaningless.

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

Why? if there is no xyz there cannot be any answer, so any answer given IS meaningless.

Exactly my point. So why are you trying to answer something which in your own words is meaningless? Maybe to you, but maybe, just maybe there are people who want to hear some meaningful answers.

You just proved you were dishonest.

Asiaprod

babyvaio wrote:

If I do something bad to you for example, I agree then that you should forgive me before God that, but this is a particular case where I commited a sin against another being and not against God Himself.

I would have to disagree with you here. I would say 99% of all sins committed were against other humans.

[/QUOTE]What about sins against God directly? Like if some one says a few ugly and nasty words directly to God? Then what? Who forgives that if not God? You can't forgive that, in other words none of the Church fathers can forgive that.[/QUOTE]
Strangely enough, I would agree with you. If the sin was against your god, then indeed he should be the only one who could forgive you

And BTW, humans incl. the Church leaders simply do not know if a sin if forgiven or not. Please don't claim that they do? And if so, how exactly can you explain that? :rolleyes:

Well since I am a Buddhist (Atheist) I have no idea how they can claim that that they do. If you ever find out though do let us know.

By the way, has anyone ever mentioned to you that the image in your signature is, to put it delicately, a little over the top? The compass on its own should be enough to get the point across.

robindch

> you're trying to mess up my qeustion by denying part of the question itself

I'm trying to suggest to you that you should ask yourself whether a question is meaningful if the basis for the question assumes the answer you want. This is not a very open-minded or a very honest way of examining things.

Answer this question for me:

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

By the way, has anyone ever mentioned to you that the image in your signature is, to put it delicately, a little over the top? The compass on its own should be enough to get the point across.

Sorry man, but I cannot see the image when I'm logged in as me

Maybe you folks in Asia see it a bit differently, should I re-point the arrow for the people from the East?

Just kidding, no hard feelings.

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

> you're trying to mess up my qeustion by denying part of the question itself

I'm trying to suggest to you that you should ask yourself whether a question is meaningful if the basis for the question assumes the answer you want. This is not a very open-minded or a very honest way of examining things.

Answer this question for me:

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The question make no sense. Do I have I wife at all? What is beating to you - a hit, a kick, running over with a truck? What does the word stopped mean - you mean stopped just now, or daily after a few hours, or how exactly?

Don't try to learn a religion from CNN or ABC or similar.

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

> you're trying to mess up my qeustion by denying part of the question itself

I'm trying to suggest to you that you should ask yourself whether a question is meaningful if the basis for the question assumes the answer you want. This is not a very open-minded or a very honest way of examining things.

Answer this question for me:

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The question make no sense. Do I have I wife at all? What is beating to you - a hit, a kick, running over with a truck? What does the word stopped mean - you mean stopped just now, or daily after a few hours, or how exactly?

Don't try to learn a religion from CNN or NBC or similar.

Dades

babyvaio wrote:

I appreciate your effort - only if your intentions were honest

They usually are.

TBF you can just ignore the heathens but you might get a more "objective" answer overall if you don't.

Ciao.

Asiaprod

babyvaio wrote:

Sorry man, but I cannot see the image when I'm logged in as me

Maybe you folks in Asia see it a bit differently, should I re-point the arrow for the people from the East?

Just kidding, no hard feelings.

None taken. You could however remove the black box with the door in it:D

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

None taken. You could however remove the black box with the door in it:D

I actually the whole picture - maybe you didn't find it offending but I guess somebody must have. What's safe is safe.:cool:

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

None taken. You could however remove the black box with the door in it:D

I actually removed the whole picture - maybe you didn't find it offending but I guess somebody must have. What's safe is safe.:cool:

robindch

> The question make no sense.

Good. You're learning. Now go back to the question you asked earlier on and see if it contains any hidden assumptions.

Scofflaw

babyvaio wrote:

Maybe, but still - my questions assume i.e. that there is a traffic light and I'm trying to ask why the green/yellow/red on it. Now some folks wana say that there is traffic light and then they wana explain the gree/yellow/red.

Now is that gona do any good I ask you? So if they atheists/pagans/whatever then in their answers they are suppose to assume that God exists, and to start building their answers from that point. But instead, they're denying Him, so what's the point in giving useless answers?

So whatever their belief is - they are suppose to assume the conditions of the question to give a straight answer - and the condition is that God exists.

I'm not gona say to the professor when I'm being asked why xyz causes abc? i.e. well, there is no xyz therefore your question is meaningless my dear professor.

I guess we both know I'd never pass that exam.
I hope this make sense now.

It does. Alas, you put it in a very high-handed way, with the result that you now have about twice as many atheists posting as you otherwise would have done!

Also, the questions you ask have different answers depending on which sect/strand of Christianity you ask...indeed, to some extent they form the basis of the various splits.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

babyvaio wrote:

I actually removed the whole picture - maybe you didn't find it offending but I guess somebody must have. What's safe is safe.:cool:

Yes I noticed, and I do appreciate, that you removed it. It is always nice to be nice:)

babyvaio

Scofflaw wrote:

Also, the questions you ask have different answers depending on which sect/strand of Christianity you ask...indeed, to some extent they form the basis of the various splits.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't mind the view of Christianity, answers from any view is fine if you can back it up with the Bible only.

Now we're moving somewhere.

Scofflaw

babyvaio wrote:

I don't mind the view of Christianity, answers from any view is fine if you can back it up with the Bible only.

Now we're moving somewhere.

By saying which, you have effectively cut out answers from Catholics & Orthodox, since neither of these strands of Christianity use the Bible as a sole source. Since those two together constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians, you're likely to get a rather limited answer...

cordially,
Scofflaw

babyvaio

Scofflaw wrote:

By saying which, you have effectively cut out answers from Catholics & Orthodox, since neither of these strands of Christianity use the Bible as a sole source. Since those two together constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians, you're likely to get a rather limited answer...

cordially,
Scofflaw

My point is exactly that - let's use only the Bible. I mean, even the Pope can give an answer as long as he uses the Bible as the only source, and not his own conclusions which cannot be backed up by the Bible. On the other hand, conclusions which can be backed up by the Bible (quoting chapter/verse, etc.) are all very welcome!

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

> The question make no sense.

Good. You're learning. Now go back to the question you asked earlier on and see if it contains any hidden assumptions.

Oh i saw that coming a mile off, very nicely executed though......

Scofflaw

babyvaio wrote:

My point is exactly that - let's use only the Bible. I mean, even the Pope can give an answer as long as he uses the Bible as the only source, and not his own conclusions which cannot be backed up by the Bible. On the other hand, conclusions which can be backed up by the Bible (quoting chapter/verse, etc.) are all very welcome!

Er, well, OK, but given you've also ruled out answers from atheists, agnostics, and pagans, you're really only left at this stage with fundamentalist Christians...to whom I will readily defer in this matter (I would suggest wolfsbane). The best of luck in your enquiries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

By saying which, you have effectively cut out answers from Catholics & Orthodox, since neither of these strands of Christianity use the Bible as a sole source. Since those two together constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians, you're likely to get a rather limited answer...

Is there a religion that uses the Bible as its sole source? I always thought that all religions that believe in God produced their own sources to support their claims, based on the Bible of course.

stevejazzx

babyvaio wrote:

Since I don't know much about this very critical topic (according to Christian belief), I'd like to ask a few questions based on my current knowledge (just to clarify some things in my head).

All the questions however do include that only God Almighty knows who goes to Paradise and who goes to Hell. People can only assume what is right or wrong, but still, I believe it does make sense to discuss this critical topic.

1. Are people who do bad/evil/rotten works/deeds suppose to go to Paradise if they accept Jesus as - strictly according to Christian belief - son of God?
2. Assuming that one believes in statement in bullet 1. and does absolutely nothing good anymore in ones life, but only the BER (bad/evil/rotten), does this implicate one will go to Heaven?
3. Is it enough to only have faith (as described in 1.) and do nothing and still to go to Heaven - is it not true, that belief/faith has to be backed up by doing good works? If this is so, where is justice here? This implies that God's Law is unjust, however that cannot be.
4. Also, is there any punishment for doing the BER works in Christianity at all?
5. Finally, who forgives sins according to Christianity, God or the Church? In other words, if ones commits a terrible thing and it's marked as a huge sin, one asks who exactly for forgiveness? Directly His Creator God Almighty or God's creatures, such as the church fathers? If the church fathers, why is it that there is an obstacle in a human being talking to His Creator? I mean, who authorized the Church what is to be forgiven and what not?

I would appreciate if your thoughts are backed up by the Bible and only by the Bible. Thanks.

Am i missing something but there seems to be very clear guidelines in christianity concerning such.
A sinner has to be genuinely repentant, not presumtious(that is a sin) to recieve forgiveness and all sins are then to be forgiven, by an ordained priest who has been given the power by god to forgive humans.
By obeying the commandants christians are actively doing good deeds.
Someone who accepts Jesus but carries out entirely bad deeds/acts(I imagine this is a quite a rarity) will go to hell if they havn't sought genuine forgiveness from god befroe they die.

robindch

> i saw that coming a mile off, very nicely executed though......

Thanks

Now go back to the question you asked earlier on and see if it contains any hidden assumptions!

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote:

Is there a religion that uses the Bible as its sole source? I always thought that all religions that believe in God produced their own sources to support their claims, based on the Bible of course.

Well, they all do a certain amount of interpretation, but most Protestant sects consider the Bible as the sole authoritative source. Catholicism has many sources, especially church councils, or the Pope speaking ex cathedra.

Personally, consider this sort of thing (the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy as adopted by US evangelicals) to be bibliolatry rather than theism...

cordially,
Scofflaw

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

> i saw that coming a mile off, very nicely executed though......

Thanks

Now go back to the question you asked earlier on and see if it contains any hidden assumptions!

Can't i'm too busy beating my wife at the mo...

robindch

> this sort of thing to be bibliolatry

Personally, I prefer the term "book fetishist" which somebody produced around here recently

babyvaio

Asiaprod wrote:

Is there a religion that uses the Bible as its sole source? I always thought that all religions that believe in God produced their own sources to support their claims, based on the Bible of course.

Let's be a little bit more specific on this matter. I'll give a visible example, call it what you like.

Assumptions first:
1. God is and He exists from the intifite past and was never born nor will die. He however gives life and causes death.
2. I'm a Christian (this can vary like Catholic, Protestant, etc.)
3. I kill a guy
4. It was on Mars where human laws don't apply but there is a town with a church and priests.
5. I wana repent for what I've done.

The question is: What do I do to repent? Do I go to the church and enter that special room (sorry, do not know the name for it) and when a priest comes, I say what I've done and he (presumably) says: You are forgiven my son.?

If you says yes to this question, then I would like to hear an explanation - as I'd said back up from the Bible - where a priest can - in the Name of God - forgive my sin?

I don't get this, that's why I want to see how it works to understand it a little bit better.

My opinion however - if anyone interested - is that one does not need somebody/something in between God and oneself. God hears, God responds. But I don't believe God gave the authority to the priests to do this in His Name. If somebody can say the opposite, please supply me with the chapter/verse to make it fair (so that we all know that it actually exists in the Bible or not and that it hasn't been made up by a man).

Medina

robindch wrote:

>

Slagging off atheists and "pagans" as being in the "dark" and "chained" does not present you, or the religion to which you belong, in a very positive light.

Thats a valid point Robindch. Be careful there Babyvaio...

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

1. Are people who do bad/evil/rotten works/deeds suppose to go to Paradise if they accept Jesus as - strictly according to Christian belief - son of God?.

In a nutshell, yes. However, once you accept Christ as your saviour the Holy Spirit then starts to transform you into the image of Christ. You will continue to sin, but the sins are forgiven. Romans 8:29, John 14:6, John 3:16

babyvaio wrote:

2. Assuming that one believes in statement in bullet 1. and does absolutely nothing good anymore in ones life, but only the BER (bad/evil/rotten), does this implicate one will go to Heaven??.

I would argue then that the person in question is not interested in following Jesus and therefore has not accepted Jesus as Lord and saviuor, if they continued to sin as stated.

babyvaio wrote:

3. Is it enough to only have faith (as described in 1.) and do nothing and still to go to Heaven - is it not true, that belief/faith has to be backed up by doing good works? If this is so, where is justice here? This implies that God's Law is unjust, however that cannot be.

It is, however Paul does say that a 'faith without works is a dead faith'. James 2:17 and 2:26

babyvaio wrote:

4. Also, is there any punishment for doing the BER works in Christianity at all?

Jesus says to build your treasures in Heaven. I allude to the idea that some will get nicer places in Heaven because they have built up treasure there.

babyvaio wrote:

5. Finally, who forgives sins according to Christianity, God or the Church? In other words, if ones commits a terrible thing and it's marked as a huge sin, one asks who exactly for forgiveness? Directly His Creator God Almighty or God's creatures, such as the church fathers? If the church fathers, why is it that there is an obstacle in a human being talking to His Creator? I mean, who authorized the Church what is to be forgiven and what not??

Your sins are forgiven as a result of what Jesus did on the cross. God forgoves the sin, because all sin is ultimately against God. In having said that if you do someone wrong it is a good idea to apologize and seek their forgiveness. As with any institution they do wish to yield certain powers. Their are wonderful priests out there (although Robin would have you think otherwise) who are eager to help someone to sort through their sin, as there are people who need the gentle words of someone they revere in order to kno wtheir sin is forgiven.

I would appreciate if your thoughts are backed up by the Bible and only by the Bible. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

babyvaio

As I understand the previous post by Brian then - based on what he said - it is ok to be a killing machine, to use bombs, nives, heavy stuff, etc. and simply because you believe that Jesus, peace upon him, was what Christians claim he was, that you will enter Paradise?

I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense.

And Paul who BTW? Do you follow Paul or Jesus, the son of Mary, peace upon him?

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

It's been said before, but it obviously needs pointing out again - this is the Christianity forum, not the Christian forum. That means that those of other faiths, and none, are entitled to freely post here, Mr-compass-pointing-to-the-Kaaba.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You are right here Scofflaw, everyone is welcome here. But babyvaio has asked specific questions requiring a Christian answer. And you, asia, atheist and Robin have not accomodated the OP in answering the questions from a Christian perspective, since none of you are Christians. Charter rule #2

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

You are right here Scofflaw, everyone is welcome here. But babyvaio has asked specific questions requiring a Christian answer. And you, asia, atheist and Robin have not accomodated the OP in answering the questions from a Christian perspective, since none of you are Christians. Charter rule #2

Had he actually said that in the initial post, I imagine it would have been observed. He didn't, but instead asked us to go back to our darkness on the Atheism and Pagan boards a couple of posts later. Certainly he clarified his request after that, and I have, in turn, acknowledged that.

In addition, it is certainly not impossible for an atheist to give an answer from a Christian perspective, particularly if they are (as most of us are) ex-Christians, although obviously we should avoid dragging our beliefs/disbeliefs into it. I have not attempted to do so, since I assume he can be more fruitfully answered by a Christian, and the terms he has finally outlined rule out an answer from a Catholic perspective, which is the one I would know myself.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Medina

Answer to your question on forgiveness Babyvaio:
(p.s. All priests are assumed to have taken on the role of apostles as the original apostles)

John 20 (New King James Version)
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


And you might want to consider this regarding the Holy Spirit for your own salvation:

Mark 3:27-29 (New King James Version)
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

(p.s. All priests are assumed to have taken on the role of apostles as the original apostles)

Fair enough for finding the verses, however, the assumption you mentioned is what I was talking about. Who presumed that the priest took the role of the original apostles?

God's Authorization is still missing very much here. I guess it was the Church itself. Since they had power, they just decided on their own to take that role - which BTW is not in the Bible to back up their decision - so they did this on their own, they took God's Right just like that.

I'm willing to hear another explanation.

Furthermore, what if there is nobody of the priests around? Can I not talk to God directly? Who's gona prevent me? And let's say I do ask God directly for forgiveness, will then a priest say (once he finds out) that that doesn't count, 'cos I didn't come to him? Again, based on what exactly?

Asiaprod

BrianCalgary wrote:

You are right here Scofflaw, everyone is welcome here. But babyvaio has asked specific questions requiring a Christian answer. And you, asia, atheist and Robin have not accomodated the OP in answering the questions from a Christian perspective, since none of you are Christians. Charter rule #2

Understood, and accepted. I will exit this particular thread and wish babyvaio good luck in his quest

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Furthermore, what if there is nobody of the priests around? Can I not talk to God directly? Who's gona prevent me? And let's say I do ask God directly for forgiveness, will then a priest say (once he finds out) that that doesn't count, 'cos I didn't come to him? Again, based on what exactly?

Yes you can talk to God directly. A priest is not necessary. I do have a few friends who I will go to if I feel I need help with a particular area of my life where I may struggle. In my mind that should be the role of a priest. But since I am not Catholic I wouldn't go to a priest. Because I don't know any well enough.

Scofflaw

It would also be worth digging around to see if you can find Excelsior's explanation of the doctrine of Grace - can anyone remember which thread that's on?

cordially,
Scofflaw

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes you can talk to God directly. A priest is not necessary. I do have a few friends who I will go to if I feel I need help with a particular area of my life where I may struggle. In my mind that should be the role of a priest. But since I am not Catholic I wouldn't go to a priest. Because I don't know any well enough.

OK, I guess I understand it, but not 100% though. As it still seems to be is that a Christian is bonded to a priest rather than to God Almighty Himself. Secondly, a priest of course does not know all the facts around the sin, me, etc. so obviously he cannot judge its weight and similar. Thirdly, he is a human and I guess we all know by now that human make mistakes, so his possible false judgement wouldn't do me much of a favour. Fourthly, maybe we misunderstood each other in talking to a friend or somebody to take it off the chest and breathe easier and actually forgiving the actual sin? I meant the actual firgiveness of a sin, not for example a friendly chat after which we feel better and can breathe easier.

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

It would also be worth digging around to see if you can find Excelsior's explanation of the doctrine of Grace - can anyone remember which thread that's on?

cordially,
Scofflaw

A penny reward to the first one who can find it.:D

hairyheretic

Scofflaw wrote:

It would also be worth digging around to see if you can find Excelsior's explanation of the doctrine of Grace - can anyone remember which thread that's on?

I think it was in the one comparing Grace and Karma a few months back.

BrianCalgary

I agree bv, a priest is not necessary. The priest can not forgive sins. Only God can do that. I go straight to God for discussions.

But I think that you would agree that the fellowship of other humans is necessary?

Possibly a Catholic could explain better the role of the priest. Remember though that Catholicism does not necessarily reflect Christianity.