Grappling in Karate; Historical Connection???

Mola.mola

i was watching something on bbc over the weekend about an african tribe. if you ignore the ak47s they live basically a very similar nomadic life to what they did hundreds of years ago. interestingly, they have their own style of wrestling which is a game they use to see who is the strongest young man in the village/tribe/group etc. the rules appeared to be, you think a single underhook and you try and get your opponent down on the groud on his back - greco.

so i'd be vary of anybody or anything trying to say " we invented grappling ". it's one of those things, like language, that's been around for a long time, but more likely than language and other cultural things, it probably has a series of independent inventions.

I think john kavanagh once said that grappling comes more naturally and instinctively to people then striking, in other words, children will play wrestling long before they'll start hitting each other. an observation i can make is that grappling would be a good way to "seperate the men from the boys" without causing serious physical harm.

Roper

Mola.mola wrote:

an observation i can make is that grappling would be a good way to "seperate the men from the boys" without causing serious physical harm.

What ever happened to who can pee the highest eh?

Burnt

Damo W wrote:

Excerpts from Nagamine Shoshin's book, "Tales of Okinawa's Greatest Masters."

Tegumi & the Origins of Okinawan Sumo
... According to island folklore Okinawan Sumo ascended from Tegumi.

Pearsquasher wrote:

Quote:
Judo, for example (since we can trace everything back to the same origin) derives from the same source but trains grappling properly, my friend is a black belt in Shotokan, and he trains uncooperative throws.
..



Sorry Roper, what same origion and source do karate and judo a have in common? I'm not sure what you mean here, thanks.

Judo arose via ju jutsu from sumo, this correspons to the evolution of karate if damo article is to be believed

Roper

Also, I have people like Burnt to do things for me...:D

SorGan

Burnt wrote:

Judo arose via ju jutsu from sumo, this correspons to the evolution of karate if damo article is to be believed

nope karate came from china, so there..

http://www.goyukan.net/karatedo.htm

pearsquasher

{off topic}

but my simplistic reading is that ultimately they were all just "fighting" until they were systematised, and some began to focus on one thing or another.

Cheers for the clarification Roper.. I somewhat agree with that idea. (Afterall its hard to systemise something when that soemthing doesn't exist in the first place )

Judo arose via ju jutsu from sumo, this correspons to the evolution of karate if damo article is to be believed

Hmm, i really don't think that jujutsu came from Sumo at all. As far as I can tell, from reading various books by notable "jujutsu" practicioners such as the Skoss's, Karl Friday and the like etc, jujutsu developed out of battlefield grappling as I mentioned before. When peacetime came in Japan, and grappling in armour was no longer the norm, it further developed into policing practices and the needs of a more civilian population. Judo came along during and after that and slowly became more sport-orientated. Sumo is more like a court/upper class sporting tradition that became popular with the public till it took the form it does today.

Burnt

Japanese ancient histroy tend to rather vague, due to xenophobia etc...
However there are to coompeteing theories as to the origins of ju justu in Japan one that it wa imported from china in the 15/16 Century and further developed from there... Alternatively as borne out by Japanese legends etc... wrestleing arts had be a feature of japanese culture for a substantial amount of time though various guises/names... sumo became a court/upper class including samurai activity around the 11/12 centuries when it became formalised with ristricted ring size etc... and eventuary evolved to fit the rule set governing the sport, resulting in its form to day. previousily it would have much similar to ju justu if not indeed the root art

Damo W

For closure an interesting article [topic related] by Charles C Goodin.

Tegumi Lead to Karate.
When practiced as a sport, tegumi became Okinawan sumo. When practiced for selfdefense, and with the addition of the Chinese techniques of striking (particularly vital point and nerve attacks known as kyosho jutsu), blocking and kicking, tegumi became karate. In fact, the characters for the old name "karate" or "tote," meant "China" (for the Chinese arts) and "Hand" (for "tegumi").

Before 1900, karate included a strong emphasis on tegumi, or grappling, which includes such techniques as throws, sweeps, trips, joint locks, chokes, holds, traps and parries. Older karate kata such as Wanshu, Wankan, Rohai, and Passai reflect these movements in certain seemingly elaborate open-handed techniques. In Passai, for example, there is sequence in which the opponent throws a left punch. Parrying the punch with his right
hand, the defender catches the wrist with his left and applies a joint lock, which causes the attacker to twist in pain and go down on one knee. The defender next raises his right knee, breaking the attacker's arm in the process, and throws a right side kick to the left knee.
Already in a vulnerable position, the attacker is completely disabled. This short sequence illustrates the integration of tegumi and striking/kicking techniques which was characteristic of traditional karate.

When karate was introduced to the public school system at the turn of the century, however, it underwent a process of simplification to make it safer for younger students. The emphasis in modern kata such as the five Pinan kata which were developed abound 1905, shifted to closed-handed punching and blocking techniques and open-handed (shuto) strikes. The grappling or tegumi element was minimized or removed completely, as were nerve attacks and vital point techniques. Tegumi remained an integral aspect of
the art in the private classes conducted by karate sensei outside of the public schools. It is interesting to note that when karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the early 1920's, several students who were already experts at ju jutsu, immediately combined the two arts.
This was not because karate in Okinawa lacked grappling techniques, but rather because this aspect was simply not being emphasized at the time by the early teachers on mainland Japan.

Full article etc. http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html

Millionaire

just a bit of historical trivia...

my grandfather RIP, told me he remembered reading a big article in the 1920s about Japanese JJ masters who came to Derry in 1920s and gave a JJ demo.

Damo W

Millionaire wrote:

just a bit of historical trivia...

my grandfather RIP, told me he remembered reading a big article in the 1920s about Japanese JJ masters who came to Derry in 1920s and gave a JJ demo.

Hi Millionaire,

Yes, maybe Yukio Tani or one of his colleagues?!?, he landed in England approx. 1899. and he used to do the 'circuit' there.
He challenged any wrestler to meet him, and agreed to forfeit five pounds to any man whom he could not overcome within a certain time. I understand that it was first submission won.

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm

For more about Tani's early career, see Graham Noble, "An Introduction to W. Barton-Wright (1860-1951) and the Ecclectic [sic] Art of Bartitsu," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 8:2 (1999), 50-61.

Early Ju Jutsu the challenges by Graham Noble
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlee.htm

Interesting piece on early dev, in the UK... refers to Barton Wright, he developed 'Bartitsu' an eclectic martial art developed in England during the late 1890s and early 1900s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Ju_Jitsu_Association

Millionaire

thats interesting stuff Damo... I shall have a read of this.

Bartitsu...sounds very interesting!!!