SAS Unarmed Fighting...

Millionaire

This is an example of combatives done by SAS,
good dirty street stuff...
(similar to Lee Morrison Stuff and I guess Mick Coup too)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51RbHBnitc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK6Bss3pIo

The guy in the video is Bob Spour who is ex SAS guy.

He also runs a top Muay Thai school in Birmingham.http://www.phrayapichai.com/about_bob.shtml

The clips were filmed with alot of contact if you look closely you see him taking some Slaps,
and the demo guy in the vid... got a fractured skull when filming this from a shot he took!!!

These guys post on Geoff Thompsons forum alot.... its a great place for asking questions of them,
(thats where I know about this cracked skull)

Read this thread if you want to learn more about this clip

http://message.geoffthompson.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001478;p=1
Combatives + Muay Thai = Bad Ass Dude!!!!

this is the sort of simple stuff that will give you a real edge on the street.

Mola.mola

this looks a bit silly to me. people that say "bang/wallop/pop/bam" when punching people tend to be a bit unreliable as coaches. also people that use the word agression more than once tend to be a bit bonkers.

"that may sound rascist but i'm certainly not". the guy is a nutter.

Millionaire

Mola.mola wrote:

this looks a bit silly to me. people that say "bang/wallop/pop/bam" when punching people tend to be a bit unreliable as coaches. .

I d say you never saw much Muay Thai in training, if you say that...

You should hear the racket thai fighters make when training!!! and I doubt they would be unreliable.

Tim_Murphy

:rolleyes:

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

:rolleyes:

why do you say :rolleyes: ?

Tim_Murphy

eg. "I'm fooking aggressive when I'm doing it."

To me he just comes across as a guy with some unresolved issues.

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

eg. "I'm fooking aggressive when I'm doing it."

To me he just comes across as a guy with some unresolved issues.

LOL! Yes maybe he has!

However I think he is acting like that to make a point that you got to be animal aggressive when in such a confrontation.

And remember 99% of violent crims on the street are going to be...

"I'm fooking aggressive when I'm doing it."

So you fight fire with fire.

Remember this guy is not some nut.... he is one of the top Self Protection instructors in UK. Top Muay Thai coaches, (karate Dan), ex SAS, and Master NLP Trainer certified.... he got a top CV so to speak.

Tim_Murphy

Remember this guy is not some nut.... he is one of the top Self Protection instructors in UK.

No reason why these would have to be mutually exclusive.

Roper

ex SAS, and Master NLP Trainer certified

Cool, he can stop you smoking while he kicks you around!!

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

Cool, he can stop you smoking while he kicks you around!!

LOL!!!!

Dragan

Tim_Murphy wrote:

No reason why these would have to be mutually exclusive.

Very, very true.

Baggio...

Interesting....

Nice one Mill.

Tim_Murphy

The clips were filmed with alot of contact if you look closely you see him taking some Slaps,
and the demo guy in the vid... got a fractured skull when filming this from a shot he took!!!

BTW why is this a good thing? He is just doing a demo, why would you actually hurt a guy doing it? Hurting somebody who is just standing there letting you do it isn't impressive. Unless of course you just want to prove how "fooking aggressive" you are. :rolleyes:

loz

Millionaire wrote:

Remember this guy is not some nut.... he is one of the top Self Protection instructors in UK. Top Muay Thai coaches, (karate Dan), ex SAS, and Master NLP Trainer certified.... he got a top CV so to speak.

dont forget ...and holds a degree in Drama and Theatre Arts.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Oi'd battor 'im!
Sure all I'd have to do is scream really loud and slap him upside the head.
If that's all there is to it like :rolleyes:

Millionaire

loz wrote:

dont forget ...and holds a degree in Drama and Theatre Arts.

cheers, I forgot to add that part.... yes! not much to do with fighting, but and ol degree is a good thing to have. (got one in Anthropology meself!)

Baggio...

Finally downloaded! stoopid 56k modem.

That was really excellent... I really like his approach. It seems to be going back to old school combatives, which is my favorite.

Cheers,

Baggio.

SorGan

Tim_Murphy wrote:

BTW why is this a good thing? He is just doing a demo, why would you actually hurt a guy doing it? Hurting somebody who is just standing there letting you do it isn't impressive. Unless of course you just want to prove how "fooking aggressive" you are. :rolleyes:

Im with you on this one Tim, the level of damage inflicted on the chap "riche" as described in the forum is a discrace, it shows no control at all.
:mad:

Millionaire

Actually if you go through the thread on GT site... Richie was in agreement that good force should be used, and wanted demo that way!

Richie ain't bitching about it!

If its 2 mutually consenting adults...let em at it!

Millionaire

here is the updated version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

Those head control neck crank things are great, I have used that technique before real life, and they sure are effective!!!

SorGan

Millionaire wrote:

here is the updated version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

Those head control neck crank things are great, I have used that technique before real life, and they sure are effective!!!

nice, but i would of liked to see him go full gear full resistance..:D

Millionaire

yes, people think RBSD is just drills, there is things like bulletman/redman where you go full on against an attacker in protective gear who is fighting back.. and also most RBSD people have thai or boxing or similar with it, and spar and roll, all the good stuff too.

I've done all that myself in training.

Put it one way.... only the best and the toughest pass SAS selection, thats for sure!!!!

Tim_Murphy

Actually if you go through the thread on GT site... Richie was in agreement that good force should be used, and wanted demo that way!

Ok, so Richie has some issues to work out too.

It makes no sense to hit hard in a demo, it's just a demo, it's doesn't show the effectiveness or otherwise of what you're doing. It just plays to the hardman attitude/BS to be honest.

yes, people think RBSD is just drills, there is things like bulletman/redman where you go full on against an attacker in protective gear who is fighting back..

In every clip I've seen of this type of stuff the guy in the protective gear always loses so he most be doing only so much fighting back.

Millionaire

I think Tim, in the case of Bob Spour being a top Muay Thai guy, and real world experience in military in sas and protection work, would have a better idea than me or you on what works in real life and what does not.

If you feel it does not work... I wonder why the likes of Geoff Thompson and many other top guys in the UK on his forum many with serious real world experience... all endorse this.

I know this stuff works, as without going into detail, unfortunately I have used it live in real world myself. and it works very well I can assure you.

Wes98

Looks rough...
Think you guys should give him a break, I bet he's lovely once you get to know him!
:rolleyes:

Tim_Murphy

I think Tim, in the case of Bob Spour being a top Muay Thai guy, and real world experience in military in sas and protection work, would have a better idea than me or you on what works in real life and what does not.

If you feel it does not work... I wonder why the likes of Geoff Thompson and many other top guys in the UK on his forum many with serious real world experience... all endorse this.

I know this stuff works, as without going into detail, unfortunately I have used it live in real world myself. and it works very well I can assure you.

When did I make any claim about any of his stuff working or not?

I didn't, and it doesn't really have anything to do with the point I made.

john kavanagh

Fantasy v Reality

part 2

note 1 - personally i disagree with the maker of this video when he names 'styles' that are ineffective, its only TRAINING METHODS that matter - i dont care WHAT its called!

smashing up a non-resisting opponent, regardless of how 'fookin aggressive you are' is a completely non-functional training method when compared with the training methods used by most combat sports. you take a technique, and drill it with PROGRESSIVE RESISTANCE - then add that to the whole. thats why they can actually fight and the likes of Ranger Scott et al cant.

note 2 - this guy has nothing to do with SBG but yes thats Matt T in the 'Aliveness' clips:)

FiannaGym.com

I did kenpo for years. If I got so agressive that technique went out the window, I'd be doing exactly what that dude is doing. You guys can judge, but sloppy, aggressive kenpo in my mind aint a winning formula.

Peace

Degsy

The SAS dont teach much in the way of hand-to hand combat.The whole ethos of the way they operate is that they're armed at all times.Nor do they teach knife-fighting techniques.As Peter Radcliffe said "If you're going to kill a man,you do it with a rifle or a pistol".A lot of these "SAS trained" hand-to-hand experts are little more then walter mittys who either failed selection or were RTU'd very rapidly.

Mola.mola

hehe, they need more agression. and possibly some batman sound effects.

Millionaire

yes I agree 100% with Training Methods only matter. In fact you can probably guess, I turned against alot of the BS... people training away but never having "gloved up" and sparred so to speak.

See I can work this stuff well, cause its just another tool bolted on to many years of very alive Kickboxing training and sparring.

I did read Matts article about RBSD before, and you know the one he was asked to teach SD, and he went to some gun fair to have a look, and when he saw the types of nerds there in combat gear...he was like "No way!!!". I would not blame him...there is loads of weridos in USA who is into this "Soldier of Fortune" BS. Though anyone say on geoffthompsons forum would not be like that... your mate Karl Tanswell even is featured on there, an interview.

Yes, certainly one must learn to work alive in all ranges...though for SD focus, you would probably spend more time on the Strikes than as much ground work a competitior would do.

But this is the thing.... Bob Spour in the vid... many years Muay Thai... right? so he is very functional with that. Can he fight... I bet my last dollar yes if he is a Thai instructor. Can the other big name SD people fight... for sure they can. look at the training in geoff thompsons Animal Day or his Real Punching series... you ll get an idea. Don't assume good SD people just do one sided drills only... Can I fight... yes sure I can, I am doing MT almost daily.... am I ready to take on Mike Tyson... not a chance... but only a tiny tiny percent are going to be at Chuck Lilds skills levels.

On the vid... its no different the geoff thompsons teaching... only geoff prefers closed fist as opposed to open hand. and GT would hardly fall into army wanna be type. nor would I either!!! ( I m a wanna be Playboy!! LOL!!)

I think the "fooking agro" thing alot of you are taking a different mean.

What it means to me is this...

On the street, good chance you are going to have the thug doing pre fight ritual... "I bust your fookin head, want some you fooker" so using this in training, prepares you better for as close to the real thing as possible.

Thats the way its going to go down outside....

And yes to excel on the street you got to turn on serious "fooking aggro" , as usually it come when you least expect. so I think thats what he is trying to impress upon the viewer.

As for the contact level... well yeah... I hear your point for sure. if someone passes selection to get into the SAS, which is an extreme test of physical and mental skills.... that type of environment will not breed one gentle side! LOL!!

All in All if mixed with functional training MT is the best, and you work this in... you got a lethal cocktail. (assuming one gets some ground skills too of course).

I know its easy to say, well he's not fighting in Pride etc.. however these guys be it him or Geoff Thompson whoever... have serious real world experience on rough doors etc... and that what the base their teachings on.. what worked under live stress situations.

But then again, if you just take the sport training and stick with it,
you got no training against a knife, bottle, stick attack nor a gun disarm.

If been bottled twice..once I just knew kickboxing and no SD and took it across the cheek... bottle did not break thank god.
Once when I did know SD stuff, and I was able to disarm the bottle, with a knife disarm technique, worked perfect!

SorGan

Good clips john, makes a good arguement for grappling/functional training

TwoKingMick

Simple- hit the groin, hit the face, smash the head off the bar!

What a chancer.

Millionaire

TwoKingMick wrote:

Simple- hit the groin, hit the face, smash the head off the bar!

What a chancer.

EH???? What da FFF??? Of course your going to hit him... LOL!!!

what do you recommend then Mick? Tickle his mickey with a feather and give him a shoulder massage!! LOL!!!

or maybe he could take him to the ground, put an arm bar on, and then let all his mates jump up and down on your head while you tied up on the pavement? perfect move in the sports arena, but on the street carries big risk..

One observation I have, and I was watching out for this...

99% of posters offer huge negitative comments on Bob Spours abilities..
Army stuff does not work... combat sport vs Km, a chancer...

Everyone has very conviently ignored the fact he is also a rated Muay Thai instructor,
with his own camp in the UK... which is a combat sport, and also a big part of MMA...right??

I though people might have picked up on that.... but disappointly no one did, or ignored the fact
to bring up the bored MMA Vs SD debate....

Actually that was the only reason I posted this, was cause of this Thai school and I
wanted to see would people notice that.

frobisher

When I was younger there was this guy in Dun Laoghaire who apparently used to train hand to hand combat with the SAS. I always wondered how true it was, although as far as I remember he did go on to form his own brand os self defence, I think it had a Greek name.

Degsy

frobisher wrote:

When I was younger there was this guy in Dun Laoghaire who apparently used to train hand to hand combat with the SAS. I always wondered how true it was, although as far as I remember he did go on to form his own brand os self defence, I think it had a Greek name.

He didnt,they dont train "hand to hand" in the SAS.Its a military unit not a dance class.

Millionaire

Degsy wrote:

He didnt,they dont train "hand to hand" in the SAS.Its a military unit not a dance class.

Do do train hand to hand a bit, though its only a tiny percentage of what they do. they got much more important things to be doing.

However for certain roles, like undercover roles in the North, they might beef up on hand to hand for that particular mission. (ya know the usual SAS undercover tricks, come over the irish border and be sitting in a pub in castleblayney try to look like a local, while figuring out how to capture the local provo commander).

sure this guy is SAS, but he also has 30 years of serious martial art credentials from Karate, to Muay Thai, to SD work.

Degsy

Millionaire wrote:

Do do train hand to hand a bit, though its only a tiny percentage of what they do. they got much more important things to be doing.

However for certain roles, like undercover roles in the North, they might beef up on hand to hand for that particular mission. (ya know the usual SAS undercover tricks, come over the irish border and be sitting in a pub in castleblayney try to look like a local, while figuring out how to capture the local provo commander).

sure this guy is SAS, but he also has 30 years of serious martial art credentials from Karate, to Muay Thai, to SD work.

If they're gonna try and nick a provo commander they either get the police to do it or they kidnap him at three inthe morning.They might be tough but they're not so stupid as to sit in a pub trying to pass themselves off as locals..it happened once and the guy got shot dead (Robert Nairac).If any of them are martial arts experts its because they practise it as a hobby and probably did long befor they joined the regiment.As for why anybody in thier right mind would let it become common knowledge that he was either in the SAS or trained with them,particularly in southern ireland,well the mind boggles.Its just like teh commonly asked question within the regiment "Were you at Prince's Gate?" "No,but i know three thousand men who were!".

john kavanagh

gerry Bob's fighting ability has NOTHING to do with my points.

but to assess his personal performance level (or any other SD instructor) i would have to see him actually spar in different ranges with people, not just perform rehearsed techniques against willing partners. i'm not saying he couldn't do it, just saying those clips dont show it.

but lets say he is very able to 'fight' then the next question would be is his fighting ability anything to do with those step 1, 2 then 3 techniques being practiced against non-resisting opponents? i would argue NO. i'd say it comes from

1 - natural born fighter. he looks like somebody in good shape, strong and aggressive. this has nothing to with technique but i'd argue goes a long way towards being effective in a fight. something you're born with, a personality trait i dont think can be taught. personally i'm very easy going, relaxed person, never find myself in 'street fights' - there's no way any 'mental programming' could turn me into a 'aggressive person (nor would i want to change how i am!)

2 - muay thai training. i've no idea how good he is at thai boxing or has he produced good fighters but if he is and has then this would be another good reason he can actually fight

now will the above type of person (someone with a grounding in an effective striking system plus natural aggressiveness) buy his dvds and actually be able to apply these techniques?

i would argue no

from experience the vast majority (NOT ALL!!!!!) people attracted to this type of fear-driven material are insecure, scared people who would do a lot better taking up a healthy sport like thai boxing or something to get themselves in shape and gain a bit of real world self confidence. with good coaching and INTELLIGENT levels of training intensity anyBODY can benefit from combat athletics - not just the 20something looking to compete.

the person with the grounding in an effective combat sport can easily add 'dirt' into their arsenal because of DELIVERY SYSTEMS however the 'wannabe commandos' who've never actually trained realistically cannot

a few things to note (again!)

• MMA does not equal ground fighting
• i'm not saying all RBSD instructors peddle fear
• how much 'real world' experience an RBSD instructor has, really doesn't matter. just because he can do it DOES NOT MEAN he can coach his students to do it effectively
• styles/techniques DONT MATTER. only TRAINING METHODS matter. realistic effective training methods NATURALLY lead to realistic effective techniques being practiced - which is why you dont see anything 'weird' in boxing, wrestling etc simple techniques practiced realistically = someone who can actually fight.

loz

Millionaire wrote:

they might beef up on hand to hand for that particular mission.

Can this be done - can i do this just for friday nights out ?

Degsy

loz wrote:

Can this be done - can i do this just for friday nights out ?

Millionaire

You can do it for any night Loz you like! it all up to you!

To Johns post..

Yes, I agree with most of what you say... I agree if your not training and sparring it too (as per combat sport) then its not much use.

Just for the record I am not an aggressive person at all, I hate ignorant and aggressive people... but if I had the misfortune of anyone trying to hurt me.. I can turn it on. Though personally I find most SD people normal people, most people I taught when I was teaching in Rathmines last year were over 30 years old and professional level jobs etc.

I do think with learning Thai as an example... to be more effective for SD, you got to do a little RBSD. Also there is minor factors to note...i.e. gloves and wrapped hands. in SD you got no gloves, try punching a rock hard Thai bag bare fisted... hence perfence for open hands.

In general I am personally not obsessed with SD. My goal is to get better at Thai, and improve as I enjoy it alot! learn some ground BJJ next year,so I can roll and have fun with that. Sure I still practice some SD just to stay fresh and as I enjoy it too.

Yeah so thats it really!

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

However for certain roles, like undercover roles in the North, they might beef up on hand to hand for that particular mission.

While this is true, the most common styles to beef up on would be boxing or maybe MT. Both these styles are fairly inocuous and were an "undercover soldier" forced to defend himself in the public eye it would be "yeah, he knocked his block off" rather than , "He fought like a fookin' ninja man, what the fook!!".

Certain styles lead to questions being asked should they ever be spotted, and certain styles and moves have a very obvious military association in the minds of most people.

As such, if you knock some dude out in a pub with a nice right then how many other kids boxed when they were younger?

Despite what Hollywood would have you beleive, people going UC from one of the armed forces is fairly rare.

Degsy

Dragan wrote:

While this is true, the most common styles to beef up on would be boxing or maybe MT. Both these styles are fairly inocuous and were an "undercover soldier" forced to defend himself in the public eye it would be "yeah, he knocked his block off" rather than , "He fought like a fookin' ninja man, what the fook!!".

Certain styles lead to questions being asked should they ever be spotted, and certain styles and moves have a very obvious military association in the minds of most people.

As such, if you knock some dude out in a pub with a nice right then how many other kids boxed when they were younger?

Despite what Hollywood would have you beleive, people going UC from one of the armed forces is fairly rare.

Its not just rare,its considered suicide by anybody with a brain and politicaly can cause all sorts of backlash.

Millionaire

Dragan wrote:

people going UC from one of the armed forces is fairly rare.

Not for detachments in the British Army in Northern Ireland

I grew up on the South Armagh Border all through the troubles.... its not rare at all. There was quite a few incidents, of undercover teams, illegal cross border incursions, helicopter fly overs into republic, unmarked cars...

I take neither side... sure I know people who were active provos, sure I know formed British Forces people who operated undercover. I studied this subject indepth of many years as a sort of hobby.

Now undercover is not James Bond... i think we all know that. However it might mean a soldier, dressed in civilian clothers, posing as man walking the street to, get observe something etc...

anyway we're off topic and i got run!

Over and out!

Mola.mola

hehe around and around in circles we go. mma v tma v tbsd v THE PPL OUTSIDE WHO WANT TO KILL YOU DEAD

john kavanagh

MMA meets RBSD, right click save target as

SorGan

Nice vid john looks like solid training..

LukeyJudo22

Impressive vid!

I love highlight reels! they always make me wanna train straight away!!

Millionaire

yes that vid is excellent stuff, even seen a Palm Strike, and Fence Pre fight work in there. thats pretty much the way training should be done.
good solid basics trained right + SD angel = excellent.

Animal Day training similar, www.senshido.com, and properly trained KM look similar.

It Rocks! I want train right now too!

Dave Joyce

Haven't had time/energy to respond sooner to this thread but as usual Gerry, people who don't rate SP/RBSD/ have the mindset of either its demonstrative i.e. crap against a non-resisting partner (no matter what obvious point is trying to be got across where a resisting partner IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE would distort what the subject is trying to get across), or you've an unhealthy mindset (WTF!!!) if you dwell on this type of subject for too long or my personal favorite if its too extreme, they're just crazy fuvkers as in the video to hand or the Dog Brothers etc. Let alone the snide underlying sheet that there must be something up with someone if they even on ocassion get into a street fight.

Now the best laugh of all, is the sheet where if the chips were down and the individual HAD to respond, they could do it BECAUSE they train with resisting partners OR they have so much ring/cage experience. This is a crock of sheet for the following reason. I have had the adreneline dump/planking it/whatever you want to call it feelilng before I have gotten in the ring/cage/extreme spar and this is a long way from the type of feeling one gets before an altercation (I don't honestly think even doormen get the type of feeling I'm talking about) on the street. I haven't been in THAT many scrapes but I am familiar with that type of adreneline/feeling from incidents in my past and it is different. THIS is why its so important to train in the way Gerry has explained countless times before ALONG with your functional training.

However, the arrogance/ignorance of SOME INDIVIDUALS who compete in combat sports is astounding. Something was pointed out to me by a non-partisan person some time back but I didn't want to say it on an open forum because it could be considered a slight on the MMA League/Mark Leonard and to which IT IS NOT, but after reading some of the crap on here I feel I have to say what this guy pointed out to me. This guy comes from an experienced boxing/kickboxing background and went along to spectate at one of the Leagues and only stayed for a short while because IN HIS OPINION, there were so many pumped up arrogant sheet heads (may have been good grapplers, he doesn't have much experience of it and probley won't in the future because this turned him off MMA so much) who couldn't strike their way outta a wet paper bag and yet went around like they were the next Matt/Tito etc The reason for bringing this up now is, that this is the same type of stuff thats been said BY SOME GUYS on this thread. I've yet to see the majority of combat sports guys give anything other than MMA/combat sports any credibility and constantly look down on anything else.