"Road Deaths not our fault" - McDowell

Benedict XVI

"Road Deaths not our fault" – McDowell

According to news reports (cannot find any links on the internet yet) Minister Michael McDowell said that it was not the government’s fault for the increased number of road deaths but it’s actually the fault of young drivers.
Now I am aware that people have a responsibility to drive safely and young drivers are a major part of the problem, but I think this sort of statement from a minister is typical of this government not willing to take responsibility for anything.
Of course the government must share the blame for the carnage. They are responsible for the policing and maintenance of our roads, both of which are factors in road safety. And both are areas which this gov. has failed, especially when it comes to policing,
The more I think of what he is saying the more it is sickening me.
And seeing as young drivers are part of the problem what is a retired TV presenter who had been well past his heyday when these guys where still in nappies, who expects them to listen to him ?

Cullen, Mc Dowell and all the way up to Bertie have a lot to answer for, and sadly I don’t expect to here a word of responsibility from any of them

BendiBus

Benedict XVI wrote:

Of course the government must share the blame for the carnage. They are responsible for the policing and maintenance of our roads, both of which are factors in road safety.

They're also responsible for training (well, they should be by insisting on a formal training course), testing & licensing.

I have no respect for Michael McDowell. He's arrogant and lives in a different world to the rest of us.

Kimbot

Just typical of the government to blame young people!!! Just cos they ain't no spring chickens!!!

Owen

Look, people are going to continue to be milled on our roads until the Training is improved, and until decent dual carriageways and motorways are constructed. We're in a first world economy, with thousands of cars, on roads designed for the second world, and to take hundreds of cars. The main Cork to Dublin road between Abbeyleix and Portlaoise is a contraflow road that twists and turns through ditches!

layke

Young people don't vote as much as the people who are 25+. Hence the reason to discriminate them. Come vote time they recieve the least hit.

We all know they are talking through their arse, if we had proper roads on the West there wouldn't be so many deaths.

kippy

Okay-now-this is surely going to ruffle a few feathers but I have got to agree with McDowell - partially at least.
The government can only do so much-short of turning the country into a complete nanny state. Road safety is one thing in which each and everyone of us has a responsibility to improve. Granted they could ensure certain rules are enforced more but this is neigh on impossible on all roads and full enforecent and detection rates will never be achieved.

I've voiced this before in this forum and I will keep saying it as I believe it to be true.
As long as drivers continue to have a complete disregard for the safety of other on the road, continue to drive too fast for the conditions, and indeed drive with little or no patience or respect for other road users there will alway be carnage on our roads.
Now who best that to change drivers habits than drivers them selves.
If we think that this will never happen and that the government need to spoon feed us information and training (a lot of which might I add is common sense) then we should be prepared to face absolute enforcement of all rules of the road-which of course will warrant the usual complaints of the guards being too harsh......

galah

totally agree with kippy.

Most accidents happen because people do not adjust their driving to conditions - that is, going too fast, not paying attention, not leaving enough space in front, tailgating, etcetc...

Granted, lots of roads are in a shocking state - but if people drove carefully, and made allowances for that, a lot of accidents would not happen...

The government needs to send more guards on the roads of make sure people stay within the law, and overhaul the driving education (i.e. proper driver education, compulsory driving lessons, no driving without so many lessons being taken, and certainly no more L-drivers - even though they are probably the most cautious of the all, they might cause "follow-up" accidents due to their behaviour...

But apart from that, it's up to every driver to drive safely, and not endager other drivers...

MrPudding

kippy wrote:

Okay-now-this is surely going to ruffle a few feathers but I have got to agree with McDowell - partially at least.
The government can only do so much

Yeah, and they aren't even doing that.

kippy wrote:

-short of turning the country into a complete nanny state.

How does enforcing exsisting sensible laws and maybe trying to have a proper training system resenble a nanny state?

kippy wrote:

Road safety is one thing in which each and everyone of us has a responsibility to improve.

Agreed, to a certain extent. But a government that allows untrained drivers to drive alone and does not provide the resources to the gardai to enforece what laws there already are must take some responsibility.

Granted they could ensure certain rules are enforced more but this is neigh on impossible on all roads and full enforecent and detection rates will never be achieved.[/quote]

You do not need full detection. No country has full detection. We need increased detection. The risk of getting caught has to *appear* to be greater.

kippy wrote:

I've voiced this before in this forum and I will keep saying it as I believe it to be true. As long as drivers continue to have a complete disregard for the safety of other on the road, continue to drive too fast for the conditions, and indeed drive with little or no patience or respect for other road users there will alway be carnage on our roads.

Hmmm, how could we change this attitude? If only we had some kind of set of rules which governed how people behaved on the road. It could be a book perhaps. In this book it could be explained how one should behave onthe road. We could bavck this up with a comprehensive set of laws which promised punishment for those that broke these rules and laws. Then we could have a special police force that look after traffic. They could then enforce these laws. Wow, that would be great.

Then perhaps we could try to train better drivers somehow. Because if we want to get people to drive safely, with consideration for others we will have to train them. TBH I don't know how we can do that.I always though that tpye of thing was the remit of the government but you seem to think it is not for the government, sort of "training the beginning of the nanny state." If it is not the governments responsibility to sort out driver training then whos is it?

kippy wrote:

Now who best that to change drivers habits than drivers them selves.
If we think that this will never happen and that the government need to spoon feed us information and training (a lot of which might I add is common sense) then we should be prepared to face absolute enforcement of all rules of the road-which of course will warrant the usual complaints of the guards being too harsh......

Why would drivers change their habits? If you do something and there are no ill consequences, in fact there are nothing but positive consequeces why would you change? It is a fact of human nature that unless there is a downside to a behaviour then that behaviour is unlikely to change. How about being dead for a downside, I hear you cry. Well that has limited success. The person who id killed will be much safer on the roads from that point on, everyone else will believe it will never happen to them.

Two things need to happen. The attitude of the current drivers needs to be changed and we need for form the correct attitude in our new drivers. The former will have to be done through enforcment and later through proper training. Neither of which are nannying.

MrP

MrPudding

galah wrote:

But apart from that, it's up to every driver to drive safely, and not endager other drivers...

The problem is, a lot of drivers simply don't know how to drive safely as they have never been shown.

MrP

kippy

Mr P,
Great post.
An agree with much of it.
BUT
The laws are already there-the rules of the road are already there-enforcement is already taking place-drink driving and speeding are harshly punished-and rightly so. Granted there could be more detection of these-however.....
The government (no matter who they are)or anyone else cannot be expected to be responsible for every single road death in this country-the framework is there to drive safely. It is up to each and every driver to follow it.
Accidents will always happen for one reason or another but cutting down on them is up to each and every one of us. Speeding and impatience on the road are as far as I am concerned two of the biggest killers. These are down to driver attitudes. The government cannot make someone more patient-this is something we need to instill in ourselves and as many have seen that is the whole point of those safety adds on the TV.
Talking about these issues is great as it will hopefully make others think twice about their habits.

Benedict XVI

kippy wrote:

Okay-now-this is surely going to ruffle a few feathers but I have got to agree with McDowell - partially at least.
The government can only do so much-short of turning the country into a complete nanny state. Road safety is one thing in which each and everyone of us has a responsibility to improve. Granted they could ensure certain rules are enforced more but this is neigh on impossible on all roads and full enforecent and detection rates will never be achieved.

I've voiced this before in this forum and I will keep saying it as I believe it to be true.
As long as drivers continue to have a complete disregard for the safety of other on the road, continue to drive too fast for the conditions, and indeed drive with little or no patience or respect for other road users there will alway be carnage on our roads.
Now who best that to change drivers habits than drivers them selves.
If we think that this will never happen and that the government need to spoon feed us information and training (a lot of which might I add is common sense) then we should be prepared to face absolute enforcement of all rules of the road-which of course will warrant the usual complaints of the guards being too harsh......

I don’t think you are ruffling any feathers.
I agree with the premis that the gov. can only do so much on road safety and the rest is up to the common sense of the drivers.
However what sickens me is when McDowell comes out with statements like this http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/11/story267301.html at this time.

The Garadi , due to a lack of resources from government do not have the ability to enforce traffic law to a level that will make drivers change their habits.. Drivers will break the law (some to a greater degree than others) if there is a perception that they will not get caught. And from a recent report on the Penalty Points System they are not getting caught. And that is ultimately McDowell and Cullen’s responsibility.

There is also the perception that Garda resources are being used incorrectly. On the road that passes Galway Airport, a flat, straight, wide, 2 lane road with a 60km speed limit I have seen numerous garda speed checks, however I have seen none on the 80km by-roads that turn off it and are half the width, nor have I ever seen any on or near the 80km back road in Athenry that claimed 3 lives on Sunday evening.

Somebody has to take responsibility for this mismanagement of resources which is costing lives, and you can bet that it will not be toady or ever McDowell or Cullen.
They both should be sacked forthwith, fat chance I know be we can only live in hope

Benedict XVI

kippy wrote:

Speeding and impatience on the road are as far as I am concerned two of the biggest killers. These are down to driver attitudes. The government cannot make someone more patient-this is something we need to instill in ourselves and as many have seen that is the whole point of those safety adds on the TV.

Drivers would be more patient if they thought that there might be a cop or a camera around the next bend waiting to nab them for dangerous overtaking or speeding, but there is little chance of ever seeing a cop on anything other than a good road so they can be as impatient as they want

As for drink driving stic a cop car across the raod from a pub every so often at closing time and that will make people think twice.

Then again none of this can hapopen cos we still have not got the 2000 extra garadi promised, and we never will

dowlingm

every government who has even dreamed of enforcing the provisional licence rule has had uproar hit it. "Oh the poor craturs how will they get to work etc etc"

until the public themselves come to regards provisional holders as unsafe without supervision, rather than letting them drive alone because it's convenient, how can the guards and govt enforce the law?

Sleepy

That's why you need a good government that understands that sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made. Thing is, sensible governments don't exist in this country.

paulm17781

McDowell is my current least favourite politician...

In this case I think he is mostly correct. People need a little bit of sense. Look at people who turn where signs say not to. They shouldn't have to be punished to learn to obey the rules, they should just do it.

I also agree that rules need to be enforced. Too often I see cars stopped on yellow boxes with near by Guards to busy texting to do anything about it.

Yes the government should have laws enforced but all the people who solely blame the government would then give out that they are being to strict. How about just driving more carefully an not expecting help the whole time. Do you call you mother every time you take a dump?

comer_97

firstly let me say the deaths on the roads are tragic.

secondly politicians do have a lot to answer for.

But there is such thing as individual responsibility. If I'm speeding and I crash, it's my fault, If i'm drunk and I crash it's my fault... etc It's not the government or Gay Byrne it is me.

And lastly, there are genuine accidents, you cannot stop them, and there will always be innocent people killed by other peoples mistakes.

Last night (i ride a motorbike) I was being overtaken by a car on the wrong side of the road going up a hill with oncoming traffic. She was blessed her impatience didn't kill her. Was Gay Byrne or Michael McDowell driving that car?

D'Peoples Voice

paulm17781 wrote:

McDowell is my current least favourite politician..

My least favourite is Flan Garvey!

Jesjes wrote:

A Co Clare councillor has said rural dwellers should be excused from drink-driving.

Fianna Fáil Councillor Flan Garvey said people who visit pubs as their only social outlet are familiar with local roads and drive more carefully and slowly, especially when they have had a few drinks.

The elected local authority member has appealed for a "special understanding" to be shown.

He insists he does not condone drink-driving, but wants allowances made for certain people, such as those who live alone, and who would travel just a few miles to the pub once or twice a week.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054870798&referrerid=59211
Then again that might have something to do with me being from Dublin and not understanding my country cousins who think drink and driving is acceptable behaviour, assuming Flan Garvey speaks for all the people in ruiral Ireland.

_Kaiser_

A Co Clare councillor has said rural dwellers should be excused from drink-driving.

Fianna Fáil Councillor Flan Garvey said people who visit pubs as their only social outlet are familiar with local roads and drive more carefully and slowly, especially when they have had a few drinks.

The elected local authority member has appealed for a "special understanding" to be shown.

He insists he does not condone drink-driving, but wants allowances made for certain people, such as those who live alone, and who would travel just a few miles to the pub once or twice a week.

This has to be a joke, right?? :eek:

So many things wrong with it.. let's pick out a few:
- the idea that people HAVE to go to a pub
- the idea that they should be allowed drive to/from there
- they're familiar with local roads eh? Familiarity breeds contempt - hence people tearing along local R-roads
- the somewhat ironic assertion from a country councillor that there's nothing else to do for entertainment in the countryside BUT drink
- Him claming that he doesn't condone drink driving, but ... :rolleyes:

Don't you just love this country!

Flukey

MrPudding wrote:

If only we had some kind of set of rules which governed how people behaved on the road.

We do. It's called common sense. A lot of people lose it when they get into a car. We can blame the quality of roads etc., but seeing as we know they are bad, then we should be driving more carefully on them. The ultimate responsibility for accidents comes down to those that drive on the roads. Drive carefully everyone.

Capt'n Midnight

Yes most of road deaths are caused by driver error.

But there is no pressure on drivers to behave, especially the young male drivers. Despite 31 new offences the number of penalty points issued has only gone up 10% since their introduction. The number of deaths shows this is not because people are afraid of the points.


We are spending BILLIONS on new roads, but aren't prepared to spend Millions on road safety. With better driver education we could use narrower lanes on many suburban link roads which would probably save the cost. With human lives valued at a million each for the purposes of road safety and penalty points providing some of the financing you can't argue that a couple of million at the driving test or recruiting more traffic cops might be one of the most cost effective ways of reducing the road deaths.

I

Jonny Arson

Michael McDowell wrote:

"Road Deaths not our fault"

Yes it is when you are happy allow 17 year kids who don't have any experience, training or full licence to drive a car only for your tax coffers you complete moron of a man.

silverside

driver attitude has a lot to do with it

however if we adopted and enforced the UK approach of only letting people drive unaccompanied once they have their full licence (and even then imposing restrictions for the first year or two), this would have some impact, no doubt

again it's the 3 E's - engineering,enforcement,education

i'd weight it towards enforcement personally...

Victor

kippy wrote:

Okay-now-this is surely going to ruffle a few feathers but I have got to agree with McDowell - partially at least. The government can only do so much-short of turning the country into a complete nanny state.

Would you have us run the gauntlet of serial killers also? If you can't out run the serial killer you deserve to die?

Not only do the stupidest (or drunkest or most tired or cockiest or unluckiest) 10% of the population need to be protected from themselves. We need to be protected from them. We rely on the government to do this. So far the government has been unsuccessful.

lostexpectation

dead right victor that was what I was going to say, apart from training and enforcement the governments job is protect the people being hit and killed by these reckless drivers.

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote:

Not only do the stupidest (or drunkest or most tired or cockiest or unluckiest) 10% of the population need to be protected from themselves. We need to be protected from them. We rely on the government to do this. So far the government has been unsuccessful.

Road incidents are perhaps the biggest preventable killers of people in the 15-45 age group.

You don't need licenses to ride bikes or horses or walk or jog or use a small boat or hang glide or moountain climbing or most other dangerous activities where the chances of you harming another person are extremely small.

You do need licenses for aircraft , ships and firearms, model aircraft , amatuer radio and other stuff where you can cause harm to others if you don't pay attention.

A car is a lethal weapon, more people have died since penalty points started than in "the troubles" up North. It's not a right. You earn the right to drive by proving that you aren't a danger to other road users, or at least that's the way it works in the rest of the western world.

paulm17781

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

A car is a lethal weapon, more people have died since penalty points started than in "the troubles" up North. It's not a right. You earn the right to drive by proving that you aren't a danger to other road users, or at least that's the way it works in the rest of the western world.

I have seen many terrible licensed drivers. They were obviously good enough to pass once. Either compulsory testing every 3 years or drive more carefully. McDowell (as much as I hate him) can't be held responsible for anuses who are "too cool" to obey the rules of the road.

Victor

paulm17781 wrote:

McDowell (as much as I hate him) can't be held responsible for anuses who are "too cool" to obey the rules of the road.

Yes he will, I'm getting an appointment.

corktina

paulm17781 wrote:

I have seen many terrible licensed drivers. They were obviously good enough to pass once. Either compulsory testing every 3 years or drive more carefully. McDowell (as much as I hate him) can't be held responsible for anuses who are "too cool" to obey the rules of the road.

maybe they are provisonal license holders without L plates......

MrPudding

paulm17781 wrote:

I have seen many terrible licensed drivers. They were obviously good enough to pass once. Either compulsory testing every 3 years or drive more carefully. McDowell (as much as I hate him) can't be held responsible for anuses who are "too cool" to obey the rules of the road.

Why do people drive badly? Either beacuase they do not know better or they can't be arsed driving well.

People drink and drive because it is easier for them than having to get a taxi home and then find their way back to the pub the next day to get the car.

They know it is dangerous, yet they continue to do it. Why? beacause it is easiest option for them. They know the penalty is to lose their license but they also know he chance of getting caught is slim. Human nature dictates the behaviour will continue until the chance of getting the punishment becomes so likely that it is not worth the risk.

MrP

Mucco

The stats show that after the initial introduction of penalty points, we were amongst the safest countries in the world for a few months. Then the fatalities began to rise again.
This shows that motorists know how do drive safely, but choose not to. Therefore training should not be a priority.

You can argue that enforcement would help, and it probably would, but I'm not convinced that abdicating personal responsibility is the way to go. Blame the government if you want, but it's the drivers causing the accidents.

M

Hobbes

corktina wrote:

maybe they are provisonal license holders without L plates......

Or they could be a driver who was given amnesty some years back rather then trying to test the amount of people without a license.

Or they could be illegally driving without a license.

blaming it all on the Provisionals is a bit of a cop out.

MrPudding

Mucco wrote:

You can argue that enforcement would help, and it probably would, but I'm not convinced that abdicating personal responsibility is the way to go. Blame the government if you want, but it's the drivers causing the accidents.

M

Ok, I presume you have the answer then. Go on then, enlighten us.

MrP

Capt'n Midnight

Hobbes wrote:

Or they could be a driver who was given amnesty some years back rather then trying to test the amount of people without a license.

Or they could be illegally driving without a license.

blaming it all on the Provisionals is a bit of a cop out.

over 80% of drivers on the road are legally allowed to do so !

And besides some drivers on provisionals do have appear to qualified driver in the passenger seat.

Still annoys me the numbers who use stealth L plates - with most of the white removed so you can't see them :rolleyes:

Mucco

MrPudding wrote:

Ok, I presume you have the answer then. Go on then, enlighten us.

MrP

Well, I didn't claim to have an answer, but, in my opinion it's about getting people to take responsibility for their own driving. It's not easy, we seem to have a culture of helping people drive badly.
I have been in plenty of pubs at night where there's been a general announcement about what road the Gardai are on. There's the flashing of lights to warn people of speed traps etc...
Education, as usual is the key.
For example: Doing 60kph in the city insted of 50kph over a 10km distance only saves you 2 minutes. And that's assuming you don't get stopped at lights where a slower car would catch up with you anyway.

MrPudding

Mucco wrote:

Well, I didn't claim to have an answer, but, in my opinion it's about getting people to take responsibility for their own driving.

OK, so who to we get to get people to take responsibility for their own driving? Can you do it? Can you make a poor driver take responsibility for thier poor driving? Can I? No. I don't think so.

Mucco wrote:

It's not easy, we seem to have a culture of helping people drive badly.
I have been in plenty of pubs at night where there's been a general announcement about what road the Gardai are on. There's the flashing of lights to warn people of speed traps etc...

How do we change this behaviour? Who changes it? What is the motivation to get people to change? Where does the motivation come from?

Mucco wrote:

Education, as usual is the key.

Wow. Education is the key is it? I wonder who is responsible for driver education. Hmmm, who could it be?

I do agree that drivers should take responsibilty for their own actions. Look through this and the motors board and you will find loads of "I got done for driving in the bus lane. It wasn't my fault the junctino is badly designed." or "I just got done for speeding, the limit was too low."

People choose not to obey the rules of the road. Why? Because either they don't know any better because they have not been trained properly or they simply decide not too because to not obey them has a positive impact on their life. Driving in the bus lane get them to work or home faster for example.

How do we combat this? Train people better and make the risk of getting caught greater so the perceived benefit of breaking the rules is lessened.

Now, what organisatino is responsible for driver training and law enforcement?

MrP

kippy

Fair points.
Just something I am wondering about.
I have never lived outside of this country and wonder what
a) The statistics for road deaths per car on the road are in other EU countries.
b) The methods that other countries follow in educating the driving population.

Anyone that can point me to a relevant website?

Mucco

MrPudding wrote:

Now, what organisatino is responsible for driver training and law enforcement?

I get your point, and you are correct in that the government can do a lot more. However, my point is that education is a two-way street. People have to want to learn, drivers have to want to be safe, and not just blame someone else.
I'm not really talking about extra training: the stats following the introduction of penalty points showed a sharp reduction in fatalities, so the knowledge is there. It's a matter of persuading people to drive like this the whole time.

M

Victor

kippy wrote:

a) The statistics for road deaths per car on the road are in other EU countries.

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf Table 53: International Comparisons

However, it isn't necessarily a useful statistic. Take two societies.

Society A. Car orientated. Population 1 million. 1.0 cars per capita. 20 traffic deaths per year per 100,000.

Cars 1 million.
Deaths 200.
Deaths per 1,000,000 cars: 200

Society B. Public transport orientated. Population 1 million. 0.5 cars per capita. 10 traffic deaths per year per 100,000.

Cars 500,000.
Deaths 100.
Deaths per 1,000,000 cars: 200

I think we can say its safer to be in society B.

KeithMur

With all the fatal accidents over the past few days, I have started looking at my own driving (400-500 miles per week) Now although I have always considered myself a good driver and a safe driver, I know I'm not as good as I could be and also not as safe as I should be. Driving along roads and keeping within the speed limits is quite a difficult thing as I do believe that keep up with the traffic flow is the best and safest way for everyone to get home safe and sound. But over the last few days I have been driving along at under the speed limit and I actually think that I may cause more of an accident now than when I just kept up with traffic.

I drive home on the old Dublin road from Kilcock to Enfield to Kinnegad which is now a 80 kmp/h zone (why it can be more dangerous now that there is a new motorway besides it is beyond me) So driving along at 80kmp/h all I got was idiot bastards overtaking me on bad corners, before the hump in the road, over straight white lines. A guy started overtaking me about 500meters past Mother Hubards just before the hump in the road, then a car appeared at the top of the hill, he accelerated towards the on-coming car and I had to break to let him in. I beeped and flashed my lights and beeped again and all I got was him giving me the fingers. Its completely outragous.

I always think back to the saying that "Right is still right even if everyone is against it and wrong is still wrong even if everyone is for it" but I fear I may be putting my life on the line even more if I continue to "obey the laws."

What do people reckon?

MrPudding

Mucco wrote:

I get your point, and you are correct in that the government can do a lot more. However, my point is that education is a two-way street. People have to want to learn, drivers have to want to be safe, and not just blame someone else.

It does not really matter whether people want to learn properly or not. The system to allow people to learn safely is simply not there. I agree that education is a too way street, part of it id the person learning and part of it is the government. With the best will in the world a person that really wants to learn properly and safely is let down because the governments side of the two way street is fcuking dug up and no use to anyone.

The other side of this is there is a section of the public that can't be arsed learning properly. People that want to learn properly & the general public at large need protectino from these people. It is the job of the government to protect its citizens.

Mucco wrote:

I'm not really talking about extra training: the stats following the introduction of penalty points showed a sharp reduction in fatalities, so the knowledge is there. It's a matter of persuading people to drive like this the whole time.

M

Yes, the knowledge is there, of that there is no doubt. Better training, however should still have a more positive effect. Its not like if we reduce road death even further people will complain we are doing too much.

People here keep saying it is a matter of persuading people to drive properly. I will ask again, who has the responsibility to do the persuasion?

MrP

Gurgle

From Jack Dee-
'I'm an excellent driver, and I never speed.... except when I'm in a hurry'

imo, its nothing to do with training, vast majority of drivers are well capable of driving safely they just don't do it.

Problem is the way its enforced - 70/80/90, even 100mph is not dangerous in the right car on the right roads in the right conditions.
One pint does not turn a good driver into a maniac.

Dangerous is overtaking when you can't see far enough to be sure its safe, driving through a red light, turning right from the left lane, tail-gating, driving when you've been up for 22 hours, yapping on the phone, not wearing seat-belts, not making sure you're kids are strapped in.

Stupid stuff basically, where you know better.

Lets see a standard 2-year ban for breaking a red light, see how long before that goes out of fashion.