Muay Thai Vs Tae Kwon Do

Millionaire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcHKIUuDbCI&search=Muay%20Thai

this is funny... a Thai boxers fighting a TKD guy in an open tourney.

Tim_Murphy

MT vs TKD vids are always sore to watch. Generally the ITF style lads do marginally better than the WTFers, but only marginally.

Millionaire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk7O8ELJDvU&search=Muay%20Thai

here is some more from K1 Japan.

Do you think Tim, ITF lads do better cause they use hands more for the competition systeM?

As ya know I did WTF for a few years.. the training was tough, and the spars all full contact. (of course punching skills were weak, so I join boxing club too). I think it varies from dojang to dojang, the intensity level...this dojang was savage. Point being.... TKD if trained right, can put up a good fight too!

Millionaire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3K1v2gb_qo&search=Muay%20Thai

here is more... this time TKD (WTF I think) hammers Muay Thai!

Tim_Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3K1v...ch=Muay%20Thai

here is more... this time TKD (WTF I think) hammers Muay Thai!

In fairness the MT guy in that clip looks like he's had two weeks training.

Do you think Tim, ITF lads do better cause they use hands more for the competition systeM?

Ya. WTF is full contact but the ruleset is very restrictive (virtually no punching), ITF on the other hand is less restrictive but it's semi contact. Neither are really going to work against even an average MT person but I think a tough ITF guy would be the best bet. That said, a lot of good ITF competitors wouldn't fill that bill. When I was competing our group had a lot of tough competitors and a lot of people from other countries really struggled against the aggressive style. They were more used to a fast, flicky style, which I suppose is that semi contact should be about. So, you can imagine what would happen against a good MT fighter!

Cake Fiend

Pity, I had hoped people had stopped posting these kinds of clips, as they get my goat - usually it's not a straight 'MA X vs MA Y' thing where two proficient practitioners of comparable skill duke it out to prove their MA's worth. It seems to mostly be 'expert in MA X beats down newbie in MA Y'. You might as well have 'good karate guy vs crap karate guy' for all it shows - one good fighter beating up another bad fighter.

Tim_Murphy

I know what you are saying but that is not always the case at all. The WTF guy in the first clip is a black belt so that should mean he is of a reasonably decent standard. TBH though the higher the level both fighters are the more a beating the TKDer is likely to take. I've trained with ITF world champs (well one of the numerous ITFs anyway) and even though they are very good at what they do, they would get beaten bad against even a irish national champ, not to mind a world champ. Thats no disrespect to the TKDers, they just don't train for that kind of thing.

Mola.mola

This thread is so 1990s i'm going to go put on my la lights and bask in the retro nostalgia glory.

Roper

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I know what you are saying but that is not always the case at all. The WTF guy in the first clip is a black belt so that should mean he is of a reasonably decent standard. TBH though the higher the level both fighters are the more a beating the TKDer is likely to take. I've trained with ITF world champs (well one of the numerous ITFs anyway) and even though they are very good at what they do, they would get beaten bad against even a irish national champ, not to mind a world champ. Thats no disrespect to the TKDers, they just don't train for that kind of thing.

That’s true, Tim is an Irish National TKD champ and I’d kick his ass….:D

Millionaire

I think its very interesting to see different MA working in different ways.

I 've trained too under ( i will not use with... as I am no way near these guys skills levels) Olympic standard WTF ers in Canada. these guys could land a full power kick on you in the blink of an eye, and were real tough fighters.

adonis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZB4ImFLOc&search=kickboxing

is this the same link as the one above??
i cant access it...

FiannaGym.com

Sico wrote:

Pity, I had hoped people had stopped posting these kinds of clips, as they get my goat - usually it's not a straight 'MA X vs MA Y' thing where two proficient practitioners of comparable skill duke it out to prove their MA's worth. It seems to mostly be 'expert in MA X beats down newbie in MA Y'. You might as well have 'good karate guy vs crap karate guy' for all it shows - one good fighter beating up another bad fighter.

The reason this seems to be the case is, MT makes great fighters, thats the training. But TKD doesnt. Plenty of TKD guys are great fighters but its not as consistent an improvement as MT.

That is why you end up with MT guys having better reflexes, timing, balance, speed, power, control, ring awareness etc etc... because MT training makes great fighters.. they would get owned in a musical forms competition. Thanksfully, most people like seeing fights, and martial arts, at some far away level is about improving your fighting ability.

Tim_Murphy

That’s true, Tim is an Irish National TKD champ and I’d kick his ass….

LMAO!:)

I should get a uniform that says 2003 Irish Champ on the back, Jim Carrey style, that would be sweet! Now before anyone asks, I never said I was the only Irish Champ that year, there were lots of them!

I think its very interesting to see different MA working in different ways.

Each evolve according to the ruleset they use, simple as that really.

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

LMAO!:)

I should get a uniform that says 2003 Irish Champ on the back, Jim Carrey style, that would be sweet! Now before anyone asks, I never said I was the only Irish Champ that year, there were lots of them!

.

well, can I have an Irish Champ one too.... for when I was one of the many Irish Champs in Kickboxing back when there was about 50 others that year!!! LOL!!!

Yep I sure know the feeling!

Roper

I know a guy who was world champ after collecting 12 special tokens from packets of Rice Krispies.

I remember first winning stuff like that and thinking I was bleedin deadly!:) Then you meet all the other National Champions on the way out... at your weight... and your grade...:D

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

I know a guy who was world champ after collecting 12 special tokens from packets of Rice Krispies.

I remember first winning stuff like that and thinking I was bleedin deadly!:) Then you meet all the other National Champions on the way out... at your weight... and your grade...:D

HA HA yeah I felt like Benny The Jet Urquidez!!! 3 secs of fame!!!! LOL!

Its great, you can could chat up chicks and tell them your the Irish champ!

Another good idea is, invent your own style so you can make yourself 10th Dan Grandmaster!!!

Tim_Murphy

It comes down to event titles really. Was the event of a high standard?
I have two 'Irish Kickboxing Champ' title belts that mean absolutely nothing to me, wheras the title I mentioned above does, as the standard was high and there was a lot of competitors from different groups and different countries. It actually means a lot more than a medal I won at a certain 'world championships'

Cake Fiend

Millionaire wrote:

I think its very interesting to see different MA working in different ways

I also think it would be very interesting to compare MAs, providing you had two fighters of relatively equal ability.

What's absolutely pointless, IMO, is having some kid who does TKD twice a week or whatever in the local strip mall fighting some guy who does serious bag work and regular full-contact sparring and whacking it up on the internet as 'TKD vs MT'. You wouldn't put a 150-pound black belt in a ring with Mike Tyson and call it 'boxing vs karate', it would be 'monstrous professional fighter vs guy who does some kata as a hobby' or something.

At least most people here will know that it's not about the art, it's about the fighter - but it does always annoy me to see 'MA X vs MA Y' as if these two guys are representative of their respective arts.

Tim_Murphy

At least most people here will know that it's not about the art, it's about the fighter

It's about how each art is trained. I could go back to TKD, train as hard as I liked at it, and I wouldn't be able to beat a good MT guy with it. Unless it's under semi contact TKD rules of course, then I'd kick his ass.

SorGan

Tim_Murphy wrote:

It's about how each art is trained. I could go back to TKD, train as hard as I liked at it, and I wouldn't be able to beat a good MT guy with it. .

:mad: damm ya tim you stole the words right out a me..whats wrong with the tkd guys in the clips?never heard of a frount kick?a punch?:mad:

yomchi

I think a tough ITF guy would be the best bet.

Did some one call me??

*goes back to wacking very hard and heavy bag*...oww

H4eafy

I trained in TKD for a few years when I was younger. These videos pretty much explain why I would never go anywhere near the dojo again.

Mola.mola

my tkd is very strong. you just do bad tkd.

yomchi

H4eafy wrote:

I trained in TKD for a few years when I was younger. These videos pretty much explain why I would never go anywhere near the dojo again.

Thats a bit unfair. You must know that TKD is a fine sport within its own parameters. To be honest, matching a TKDist against a MT fighter is just going to highlight the fact that TKD is a semi-Contact sport and shows that the difference in the training is worlds apart.

Oh and its Dojang!

SorGan

Jon wrote:

Thats a bit unfair. You must know that TKD is a fine sport within its own parameters. To be honest, matching a TKDist against a MT fighter is just going to highlight the fact that TKD is a semi-Contact sport and shows that the difference in the training is worlds apart.

Oh and its Dojang!

yet in clubs knife defence is still tought? or was when i was training..
I was tought to kick a knife out of an atackers hand?? no comment, but to say thats why i gave it up.

yomchi

SorGan wrote:

yet in clubs knife defence is still tought? or was when i was training..
I was tought to kick a knife out of an atackers hand?? no comment, but to say thats why i gave it up.

Yes this is unfortunate, TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

You will get instructors - albeit very few who will teach proper self defence and incorporate it into their classes, but it isn't TKD per se.
Im using Combatives as part of my classes now, I've even asked Lee Morrison to come over and work with us on it - see Lee Morrison thread.

SorGan

Jon wrote:

Yes this is unfortunate, TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

You will get instructors - albeit very few who will teach proper self defence and incorporate it into their classes, but it isn't TKD per se.
Im using Combatives as part of my classes now, I've even asked Lee Morrison to come over and work with us on it - see Lee Morrison thread.

Good man, ill check it out:D

yomchi

SorGan wrote:

Good man, ill check it out:D

I bumped it back to the top for you!

Millionaire

yeah...if you add combatives on to your TKD experience, you will have real good SD skills. cause TKD will train you to strike, punch kick, be fast and agile and fit.... thrown in some RBSD...and you will jump miles ahead with SD skills.

Roper

Jon wrote:

Yes this is unfortunate, TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

You will get instructors - albeit very few who will teach proper self defence and incorporate it into their classes, but it isn't TKD per se.
Im using Combatives as part of my classes now, I've even asked Lee Morrison to come over and work with us on it - see Lee Morrison thread.

Who are you, and what have you done with Jon?:D

Tim_Murphy

See, it’s cool when TKD instructors take this attitude:

Thats a bit unfair. You must know that TKD is a fine sport within its own parameters. To be honest, matching a TKDist against a MT fighter is just going to highlight the fact that TKD is a semi-Contact sport and shows that the difference in the training is worlds apart.

It’s a fun sport MA and as you say it’s great within it’s parameters. The problem is that so many instructors don’t know what it is and what it is not. That's when things get weird.

yet in clubs knife defence is still tought? or was when i was training..
I was tought to kick a knife out of an atackers hand?? no comment, but to say thats why i gave it up.

It’s crazy some of the stuff that seen taught as ‘knife defence’ or self defence in general, absolutely crazy.

Yes this is unfortunate, TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

When the ITF cult enforcers get their hands on you, you’re screwed!

You will get instructors - albeit very few who will teach proper self defence and incorporate it into their classes, but it isn't TKD per se.

I hope poor Marvin isn’t reading this! :eek:

Ger Healy

Jon wrote:

TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

:eek: Oh noooooooooooooo another one gone to the darkside.....

paul moran

TKD is USELESS for self defence! I've done it since 1986 and only recently am I realising this. It should be just classed as a sport, end of.

20 years to make this kind of realisation????:eek:

Millionaire

The TKD WTF I did, was pure sport Olympic style. of course forms and grading and trad style blocks was done. however everything else was aimed at WTF competition. This was frustrating for me, as I wanted a more rounded system with hands work and SD. however the only other choice in this towm was trad Goju Ryu Karate, with no sparring.

My insturctor knew nothing about SD, and he did get in a few scraps outside bars, where the spinning hook kick was his trade mark... some he won some he got killed!!

How from reading of the years the likes of Hee LL Cho.... I would imagine his TKD would be much more functional??

Vegeta

Millionaire wrote:

How from reading of the years the likes of Hee LL Cho.... I would imagine his TKD would be much more functional??

I have to say after training for a while with AIMAA i would say its pretty practical but then the traditional stuff gets in the way. The trad stuff takes up too much time in a lot of the classes.

They stand forward facing to start anyway

Tim_Murphy

Oh noooooooooooooo another one gone to the darkside.....

Fecking dark side, ruins it for everyone!

How from reading of the years the likes of Hee LL Cho.... I would imagine his TKD would be much more functional??

I've heard a lot of people say a lot of good things about him, a lot of what he does seems to be very good but the most ridiculous self defence thingy (technical term that!:) ) I've ever seen was a knife defence section he did in a magazine a good few years ago. Johny bad guy come at you with knife, you cresent kick the knife hand, then spin and kick him in the head with a reverse turning kick. :rolleyes:

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I've ever seen was a knife defence section he did in a magazine a good few years ago. Johny bad guy come at you with knife, you cresent kick the knife hand, then spin and kick him in the head with a reverse turning kick. :rolleyes:

ah...the mags make you do stupid stuff that "looks good".

I had a profile done on me in Fighters mag once, and what they made me do in the photo sequence, was a joke, it looked really really stupid. :mad:

H4eafy

Jon wrote:

Thats a bit unfair. You must know that TKD is a fine sport within its own parameters. To be honest, matching a TKDist against a MT fighter is just going to highlight the fact that TKD is a semi-Contact sport and shows that the difference in the training is worlds apart.

Oh and its Dojang!

I agree with you. I loved it when I did it, it was great fun.

But when I moved onto boxing, MT and MMA I seen how irrelevant (sp?) its principles are in self defence and full contact competition.

Miles Long

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I've heard a lot of people say a lot of good things about him, a lot of what he does seems to be very good but the most ridiculous self defence thingy (technical term that!:) ) I've ever seen was a knife defence section he did in a magazine a good few years ago. Johny bad guy come at you with knife, you cresent kick the knife hand, then spin and kick him in the head with a reverse turning kick. :rolleyes:

Was it a Streets of Rage-esque attack? Walking towards you with the knife a arms length?:D A lot of AIMAA instructors I've trained under regularly teach functional SD. At higher grades it's part of the curriculum, although it's pre-defined on paper I've heard of students being attacked in a certin way and being asked to react intuitivley to defend themselves. I think this works well due to the nature of Mr. A and Mrs. B having different reflex actions when attacked.

My figuring, and do correct me if I'm wrong is that going from WTF to ITF to AIMAA TKD styles, gets further towards boxing and MT types of MAs. Traditional (ITF) is still a big part of the AIMMA style, but what makes it further removed is the boxing techniques and grappling aspects.

SorGan

[QUOTE= When the ITF cult enforcers get their hands on you, you’re screwed!
QUOTE]
ha, theyll make you break boards with your face for a month:D

Roper

Miles Long wrote:

Traditional (ITF) is still a big part of the AIMMA style, but what makes it further removed is the boxing techniques and grappling aspects.

Yeah, I'd agree to an extent, until you grapple with a grappler or box with a boxer...

Personally, if I want to box, I'll go to a boxing club, to grapple, a BJJ club, to do TKD, a TKD club.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Who are you, and what have you done with Jon?:D

Jon seems to have many personas!!

Good on him!! :cool: Keep em guessing!!

pma-ire

Jon wrote:

You will get instructors - albeit very few who will teach proper self defence and incorporate it into their classes, but it isn't TKD per se.
Im using Combatives as part of my classes now, I've even asked Lee Morrison to come over and work with us on it - see Lee Morrison thread.

Or teach self defence techniques from other arts badly!!

Cross training is a much better way to get a rounded view on your MA training and teaching!!

You can get to a point where you are saying to yourself "can I really teach this to a member of my club and stand over it?"

So as not to upset people ,and have the freedom to do what you want, it sometimes may be better to move out on your own and find like minded clubs and not so restrictive groups.

Miles Long

Roper wrote:

Yeah, I'd agree to an extent, until you grapple with a grappler or box with a boxer...

Personally, if I want to box, I'll go to a boxing club, to grapple, a BJJ club, to do TKD, a TKD club.

Here Here!:) Unless you have a coach that can teach you all three effectively? I which case, "Sunday, Monday, Happy Days!". That said, in theory a pure coach would be better...

Roper

Miles Long wrote:

Here Here!:) Unless you have a coach that can teach you all three effectively? I which case, "Sunday, Monday, Happy Days!"

Where is this coach? I'd love to meet him and have him train me!!!! Seriously, who?

TKD and boxing don't mix. Different basic stance, different footwork required, different level of contact in competition. In short, different fundamentals. I think most people who've trained boxing to even some small degree would agree. TKD is great on its own, leave it there IMO. Follow Jon's advice above.

Grappling in TKD eh? Cool. Who's the grappling coach?

Roper

Sorry Miles, what I should really have said was click here

Or go to a boxing club, or a BJJ club, or a judo club, or a Muay Thai club and see what I mean. There's a pure message in these places that doesn't get distorted by mixing things up.

Miles Long

Roper wrote:

Where is this coach? I'd love to meet him and have him train me!!!! Seriously, who?

TKD and boxing don't mix. Different basic stance, different footwork required, different level of contact in competition. In short, different fundamentals. I think most people who've trained boxing to even some small degree would agree. TKD is great on its own, leave it there IMO. Follow Jon's advice above.

Grappling in TKD eh? Cool. Who's the grappling coach?

Coach... eh Dan and James teach/taught me? TKD and Boxing don't mix? Not in thier pure forms, BUTT, they can be adapted to each other. Which leaves you with the question. Train hard with just your hands through Boxing, Train hard with just your legs (for aguments sake TKD) or, have both and try to utilise a good set of attacks with both.

Grappling, I figured you'd know , is part of the AIMAA curriculum, thought it is continually tweaking and tightening. The massive problems facing it are that 1) It's not in the TKD comps. 2) Fighting in TKD is conducted with Boxing gloves and not MMA gloves. 3) ... and I don't know if this borrowed from another art but, ground fights are started with one knee on the ground and striking is allowed.

That said, I only know what is done in my club and this (grappling) may not be as heavily practiced in other AIMAA clubs, but we have mats, we have people up for it that also do judo and things, so why not learn more. I love ground fighting til your hands shake against your own will, sign of a good session!:D

Roper

Miles Long wrote:

Coach... eh Dan and James teach/taught me?

Okay, James is a mate of mine and I know he doesn't teach grappling! I've asked him and he told me so! And he's Dan's instructor so... well I'm not accusing you of lieing but I'm a little confused . Who's this coach thats teaching you grappling, boxing and TKD you said you had?

TKD and Boxing don't mix? Not in thier pure forms, BUTT, they can be adapted to each other.

There's only one "T" in but:D . I spent years trying to 'adapt' my boxing and TKD and I know a lot of guys tried to do the same. It doesn't work. Do a pure boxing class and they'll teach you some fundamentals, then do a pure TKD class and they'll teach you a totally different set of fundamentals. If you mean "we throw hooks and jabs.... in a TKD way" then I would say that the techniques don't match the system.

Train hard with just your hands through Boxing, Train hard with just your legs (for aguments sake TKD) or, have both and try to utilise a good set of attacks with both

or special option (C), stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes and accept each art for its differences. If you want a good, spectacular looking, semi-contact sport to try, I would say TKD is your best bet. If you want a good, organised, full contact combat sport I would put boxing top of my list. They're from two different worlds.

Grappling, I figured you'd know , is part of the AIMAA curriculum, thought it is continually tweaking and tightening. The massive problems facing it are that 1) It's not in the TKD comps. 2) Fighting in TKD is conducted with Boxing gloves and not MMA gloves. 3) ... and I don't know if this borrowed from another art but, ground fights are started with one knee on the ground and striking is allowed.

1) Thats because TKD is a stand up art, and should probably stay that way.
2) Thats because its a TKD tournament, and I think you're confusing grappling with MMA.
3) Why is that a problem? Ground fighting is started a lot of different ways. I think the one knee thing is a bit artificial myself but there are many ways to skin a cat!

we have people up for it that also do judo and things, so why not learn more. I love ground fighting til your hands shake against your own will, sign of a good session!

Indeed! Why not learn more, and all you really need to grapple is a willing partner. But that will only take you so far. "You can STILL enjoy sport doing it properly".

Let me put it to you this way. If I wanted to play football for a team, would I train doing kickarounds with my mates on the field, some of whom knew a little bit about football maybe, without a coach, and then go into a match on a Saturday expecting to perform against another team? No. Why do the same with Martial Arts???

I want to emphasise that I am not a great grappling coach, heck I'm not even a grappling coach at all!!:D But I know the correct way to train because I have a coach (however infrequently I get to him) and any mistakes me or my group is making I know I can get them sorted. Plus, we step out of our own back yard frequently to measure up against others.

SorGan

Roper wrote:

There's only one "T" in but:D .

burn!
jesus roper your fingers must be bleeding

Roper

Ah its a welcome break from typing what I'm supposed to be typing!!!

yomchi

Christ! I've only realised... the dark side is coming even closer..

Resistance is futile hey?

There has been this white pizza van parked across the road from me since yesterday, two Korean lookin dudes sitting in it..

Seriously thoug it is common sense, I was just a bit slow at coping it :rolleyes: