push/fold/call cash game Q

Norwich Fan Rob

Crypto £2/5 (similar to $5/10)

I have £600, mid pos has £700, im not there long, mid pos guy has been relatively active, but no indication hes a total muppet, havent seen u before.

UTG makes it £15 to go, mid pos makes it £65, i call on button with KK, UTG folds.

Flop (£152) comes 993 with 2 spades, raiser bets £140.

Call/fold/raise ??? and if raise, how much ?

fuzzbox

I just call, no real need to raise, villains cant have many cards they can hit to beat you, and you have position.
If you run into AA then that just sux

ianmc38

Any raise is pot committing so I probably shove here though if he has AA/99 it sucks.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Any raise is pot committing so I probably shove here.

lets him off cheap ... n'est pas?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

lets him off cheap ... n'est pas?

Oui oui. Le shove est comme-ci comme-ca mais le call est meilleur

cardshark202

English only at the table please.

karlh

i'd call the flop and push the turn.

AA is just ul, i'd be a bit more worried about giving AsKs 2 streets to catch up but giving him a chance to commit more on the turn is the play, non?

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

If you run into AA then that just sux

Exactly. I think You have to play it to maximise you $$ off TT JJ QQ..
That mite be to push/raise now.
Or it mite be to call and push turn..
Alotta scare/action ruining cards can come on turn if you just call.

willis

Is the flat call on the flop not suspicious of a big hand?The viallin must put you on 1010 - AA now, is he really going to bluff the turn?

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

Exactly. I think You have to play it to maximise you $$ off TT JJ QQ..
That mite be to push/raise now.
Or it mite be to call and push turn..
Alotta scare/action ruining cards can come on turn if you just call.

What scare cards can come?
The board is 993, and the pot is reraised.

Villain should already be scared of your cold call, raising him now simply allows him to play pretty excellently against you, he plays AA/KK and sometimes QQ if he thinks u suck, and folds the rest (oh he plays 9x and 33 also).

If you call, he might think ur a donkey with 88 or whatever, and either A. fire another barrel with AK drawing to 3 outs, or B. fire another barrel with QQ- (maybe even all-in) and thats great for us, or C. Check/call your push on the turn, figuring he let you "bluff" with 88/77 etc.

fuzzbox

willis wrote:

Is the flat call on the flop not suspicious of a big hand?The viallin must put you on 1010 - AA now, is he really going to bluff the turn?

Probability of him bluffing the turn if you raise the flop = 0%
Probability of him bluffing the turn (or valuebetting the worst hand) if you call the flop > 0%.

Gholimoli

i agree with the flat call .if he has AA he may even check the turn after you flat calling a reraiser and then calling his bet on the flop.
i would take the call/call/call line here .as fuzz said if your against AA then fock it but if your not you will get QQ/JJ/AK bluffing away at you.
what does every one think of making this 200 pre flop instead of the flat call and then folding to a push?

fuzzbox

I dont like doing that Gholi, cos then ur bluffing. What calls you?

If I make it 200 then I call a push.

AmarilloFats

I said both calling and raising are options. They both are. The optimal one is dependant on opp.
If an Ace, spade or King fall on turn this may lead villain to fold a hand he may have continued with.

It is difficult to get an average opponent to put more $ in pot without AA, 33, KK 9x after your cold call pre-flop. You suggest calling the flop is more likely to lead to villain making a mistake. He could put you on “88” …But could not put you on JJ if you raise!!!!!!!!WHAT!???

I know it’s hard to have a consistent archetype for opponent.Is villain good or not.
Raising flop = opponent plays perfectly
Calling flop = opponent thinks you're a donk and hence maybe donks off his stack with QQJJ.

I think at least sometime you should raise this flop and give him the opportunity to make the biggest mistake.

AmarilloFats

Gholimoli wrote:

fock it but if your not you will get QQ/JJ/AK bluffing away at you.

Hi.
You think he will fire more barrels with QQ/AK as a blufF? ? trying to get you to fold what hands exactly...
If that is the type of opponent u think ur up against fire it all in and let him call with 72o.(and out draw you!!)

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I dont like doing that Gholi, cos then ur bluffing. What calls you?

If I make it 200 then I call a push.

Well the way I was looking at it:
Raise,reraise ,call?
What does villain think our range is ?
I would assume its very narrow here. Like AA,KK, maybe QQ(correct me if im wrong).
Now with our range being so narrow and the stack being so deep then theoretically if villain is any decent at all he can play almost perfect against us .
That mean look at the flop, bet with AA (considering there is no K,Q there) ,check/fold anything else that does not beat out range.
Now if he check/folds then we will not win any more apart from the 65 initial raise any way but we may loos a hell of a lot more.so his implied odds(if he needs them and his hand is not ahead of us already) are great .
On the other hand if you make it 200 even though there are not many hands that will call that your ahead of but will prevent you from loosing more as he only pushes here with AA, KK I think.
So I think even though your 200 raise may loos you an extra 145 here(if he pushes) but seen as you pick up the 80(the pot before your raise) some times and the fact that your not loosing your stack would make it an ok play.
The only problem I can see here is if he flat calls with AA.but seen as we have position on him that shouldn’t be problem, as his call will scream AA anyway.
Am I making sense at all?

Gholimoli

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi.
You think he will fire more barrels with QQ/AK as a blufF? ? trying to get you to fold what hands exactly...
If that is the type of opponent u think ur up against fire it all in and let him call with 72o.(and out draw you!!)

you will be surprised what ppl do with over pairs on a low board.
they are not really always trying to get you to fold but even value betting seen as they think they are ahead just because they beat the board.
it all depends on the villain.

AmarilloFats

Gholimoli wrote:

you will be surprised what ppl do with over pairs on a low board.
they are not really always trying to get you to fold but even value betting seen as they think they are ahead just because they beat the board.
it all depends on the villain.

Amen to that sister..
Btw. If I was villain with QQ I might very well check this flop.
A hand I would lead this flop with is AsKs..

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi.
You think he will fire more barrels with QQ/AK as a blufF? ? trying to get you to fold what hands exactly...
If that is the type of opponent u think ur up against fire it all in and let him call with 72o.(and out draw you!!)

Well if you dont think he fires the turn with anything you beat, then you can fold to his turn bet.
If he checks, you can decide to check behind and call a river bet/bluff.

Raising says lets play for stacks, and gives him a chance to drop everything that you are ahead of.

Calling, gives you more options in a smaller pot. You can still choose to go broke, or you can choose to fold etc, but you dont gain a whole lot by going for your guns on the flop.

Norwich Fan Rob

ok , i call the flop bet of £140.
the pot is now £432 after the flop and pre flop action.

the turn in an offsuit 4.

the villian immediately pushes.

I have £395 left to call to win the pot which will be £1202 total.

I now believe villian has AA, which gives me 2 outs and no odds to call.
But he might have AKs, QQ, the other KK.

Question, is this an autocall, an autofold, does villian not have AA enough times for this to be a good call?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

Well the way I was looking at it:
Raise,reraise ,call?
What does villain think our range is ?
I would assume its very narrow here. Like AA,KK, maybe QQ(correct me if im wrong).
Now with our range being so narrow and the stack being so deep then theoretically if villain is any decent at all he can play almost perfect against us .
That mean look at the flop, bet with AA (considering there is no K,Q there) ,check/fold anything else that does not beat out range.
Now if he check/folds then we will not win any more apart from the 65 initial raise any way but we may loos a hell of a lot more.so his implied odds(if he needs them and his hand is not ahead of us already) are great .
On the other hand if you make it 200 even though there are not many hands that will call that your ahead of but will prevent you from loosing more as he only pushes here with AA, KK I think.
So I think even though your 200 raise may loos you an extra 145 here(if he pushes) but seen as you pick up the 80(the pot before your raise) some times and the fact that your not loosing your stack would make it an ok play.
The only problem I can see here is if he flat calls with AA.but seen as we have position on him that shouldn’t be problem, as his call will scream AA anyway.
Am I making sense at all?

Since you are calling 65 out of 600, your range is wider than you suggest (although still fairly tight).
If you 3-bet your range gets even tighter, a cold 3-bet indicates a huge hand.

So you are putting in 200, but you dont gain anything, because villains fold everything you beat, and shove everything that beats you .... please note, that this may not be the case against donkeys.

cardshark202

I call expecting to see JJ/QQ/AA

fuzzbox

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

ok , i call the flop bet of £140.
the pot is now £432 after the flop and pre flop action.

the turn in an offsuit 4.

the villian immediately pushes.

I have £395 left to call to win the pot which will be £1202 total.

I now believe villian has AA, which gives me 2 outs and no odds to call.
But he might have AKs, QQ, the other KK.

Question, is this an autocall, an autofold, does villian not have AA enough times for this to be a good call?

If he shoves with all of those hands equally, then its a call.
If not, then you have to make your choice, and take your lumps.
Getting 3:1, its tough to fold now.

Norwich Fan Rob

your more or less calling 400 to win pot of 1200 total (inc your 400)
so u are only getting 2/1.

i suggest the call is marginal, as surely he has AA more often than QQ/bluff.

Just wondered how many call, and how many fold here.

ianmc38

Call and make sure you catch a king on the river.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Since you are calling 65 out of 600, your range is wider than you suggest (although still fairly tight).
If you 3-bet your range gets even tighter, a cold 3-bet indicates a huge hand.

So you are putting in 200, but you dont gain anything, because villains fold everything you beat, and shove everything that beats you .... please note, that this may not be the case against donkeys.

Fuzz ,
looking at it from the other side.
if you 3bet here ,its true that he drops almost everything that you beat and shoves with AA.bu thoes times that he drops you win the pot 85.
thoes times that he shoves you have lost 145 extra instead of the call.
however the thing is it would be pretty hard to get anything more out of this with a flat call anyway(becuase of out narrow range of hands) but we could easily lose more than the 200?

Bandana boy

I think i call here
if he has AA then he has AA and i will just have to river a K

I think (especially if UTG is a raising donkey) that JJ QQ does exactly what you see here

Gholimoli

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

your more or less calling 400 to win pot of 1200 total (inc your 400)
so u are only getting 2/1.

i suggest the call is marginal, as surely he has AA more often than QQ/bluff.

Just wondered how many call, and how many fold here.

i would prob fold here to the push if i thought villain was in anyway decent.

Norwich Fan Rob

ianmc38 wrote:

Call and make sure you catch a king on the river.

i really felt like he had AA here.
i tried really hard to fold, but i couldnt do it, i pressed call, he had the AA, and i did exactly what Ian suggested above :P

Villian called me a number of things, mainly starting with F.
I may not have played it great, but i just wanted reassurance that i didnt play it awful.

MrPillowTalk

Nothing wrong woth how you played it, the turn card changed nada I would have beat him in the pot your ahead enough for it to be a call.

karlh

i think the flat call preflop is fine but surely when you flat call you accept the possibility that you are beaten by 1 hand and must proceed in the hand, disregarding that to a certain extent.

if not then what information have you gained by his play in the hand thus far to suggest that he has AA over KK/QQ/JJ or even 1010?

I don't think too much at all. We haven't got a detailed read on him and the average player in the right mood will play this hand out the same with any overpairs IMO.

possibly my judgement is being clouded by a week of profit at muppety player's expense but I honestly couldn't fold this hand in a gazillion years.




go on, tell me he has 99

Ste05

I also think you played the hand perfectly.

ChipLdr

Another view is reraising on the button and most certainly the villian will have to push which means u 99% know he has AA unless he's a fool.

Now b4 other ppl start berating my play and argue that a raise here is uncalled for if it means losing $130 and not $600 then its a smart play???

By flat calling Rob was left with one of those flops whereby its easy to think you're ahead but the thought is always niggling that he does have AA and you unfortunately paid to find out.

My view is that if you reraise you can put him on a definate hand preflop. Only AA-KK can call the Reraise OOP IMO

cardshark202

ChipLdr wrote:

Another view is reraising on the button and most certainly the villian will have to push which means u 99% know he has AA unless he's a fool.

Now b4 other ppl start berating my play and argue that a raise here is uncalled for if it means losing $130 and not $600 then its a smart play???

By flat calling Rob was left with one of those flops whereby its easy to think you're ahead but the thought is always niggling that he does have AA and you unfortunately paid to find out.

My view is that if you reraise you can put him on a definate hand preflop. Only AA-KK can call the Reraise OOP IMO

Re-raising is terrible for reasons already stated. We don't want to lose put money in the pot jjust to find out if he has AA. When we call we have a chance at stacking him if he has QQ or JJ or we could hit a K and get paid off by AA. So we can win a small pot preflop IF he doesnt have AA, win or lose a big pot post-flop if he has AA cos we might outflop him or we are almost guaranteed to get some action of QQ/JJ. Its a risk versus reward move and there is definately a bigger reward by just calling.

NickyOD

I think if the villain is half a player he only pushes the turn with KK and AA. He has got to be suspicious of the way you've played your hand so far.

fuzzbox

I would check the turn with pretty much every hand I might have, if I was villain.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

Re-raising is terrible for reasons already stated. We don't want to lose put money in the pot jjust to find out if he has AA. When we call we have a chance at stacking him if he has QQ or JJ or we could hit a K and get paid off by AA. So we can win a small pot preflop IF he doesnt have AA, win or lose a big pot post-flop if he has AA cos we might outflop him or we are almost guaranteed to get some action of QQ/JJ. Its a risk versus reward move and there is definately a bigger reward by just calling.

i dont think reraising is terrible play here at all by any means infact i think its a better play than flat calling.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with making it 200 to go here to find out more. as said before you may lose that extra 145 but if it keeps you from getting stacked then its deffo worth it.
also a decent player will never pay you off if you hit your K.
what does he put you on when you flat call a raise and a reraise?
he certainly does not put you on 99 or JT ...
also your not guaranteed to get action from QQ/JJ .they may bet the flop but as soon as the flop bet gets called they will stop if they have any clue .
also some times you will get an A on the flop when villain holds QQ/JJ and he will bet out and you will have to fold so on average you wont get much from QQ/JJ ,you will not get much from AA if you out flop him,you will lose more to AA cuz you dont know where you are.
i think raising pre flop is better play.

ChipLdr

cardshark202 wrote:

Re-raising is terrible for reasons already stated. We don't want to lose put money in the pot jjust to find out if he has AA. When we call we have a chance at stacking him if he has QQ or JJ or we could hit a K and get paid off by AA. So we can win a small pot preflop IF he doesnt have AA, win or lose a big pot post-flop if he has AA cos we might outflop him or we are almost guaranteed to get some action of QQ/JJ. Its a risk versus reward move and there is definately a bigger reward by just calling.

If we dont pay to find out if he has AA preflop then by flat calling it means we go broke every time undercards hit because we'll pay off AA.

If we reraise preflop we still win a substantial $85-$90 pot preflop if they have <AA or lose $120 if he doesnt.I understand that we want to keep QQ and JJ in but my point is we've gained no information in flat calling and we're basically hoping a K hits or Villian holds an underpair.

By flat calling the only safe board for us is to see a K high flop which is the wrong way to approach the flop IMO.I'd rather lose $120 finding out preflop than losing a buyin "hoping" he has an underpair after the river.

Hitman Actual

ChipLdr wrote:

If we dont pay to find out if he has AA preflop then by flat calling it means we go broke every time undercards hit because we'll pay off AA.

If we reraise preflop we still win a substantial $85-$90 pot preflop if they have <AA or lose $120 if he doesnt.I understand that we want to keep QQ and JJ in but my point is we've gained no information in flat calling and we're basically hoping a K hits or Villian holds an underpair.

By flat calling the only safe board for us is to see a K high flop which is the wrong way to approach the flop IMO.I'd rather lose $120 finding out preflop than losing a buyin "hoping" he has an underpair after the river.

This doesn't seem right. Using some crude general maths, and making the assumption that he folds JJ/QQ preflop, but calls/pushes with AA (i.e you now know he has Aces): EV = (12 combs of QQ/JJ * $90) - (6 combs of AA * $120) = +$360.

Assuming you call and stack him when he has QQ/JJ or lose your stack to AA (on a low board), the approx EV = (12* $600) - (6 * €600) = +$3600.

OK, that maths is ropey and doesn't take everything into account, but making the play pre-flop for the reasons you give seems to have much less EV.

ChipLdr

I agree that stacking QQ is a possibility but JJ would be a lot harder to stack IMO the way the hand plays out preflop.If you call on the button after two raises you're SCREAMING i have a monster and JJ has to put you on TT or better.

My point is that what flop do we want to see by flat calling? Certainly no A and no Q or J so a low board is the preferred option but we still cant be confident we have the best hand because we haven't gained enough info preflop.

fuzzbox

ChipLdr wrote:

If we dont pay to find out if he has AA preflop then by flat calling it means we go broke every time undercards hit because we'll pay off AA.

If we reraise preflop we still win a substantial $85-$90 pot preflop if they have <AA or lose $120 if he doesnt.I understand that we want to keep QQ and JJ in but my point is we've gained no information in flat calling and we're basically hoping a K hits or Villian holds an underpair.

What do you do if you make it 200, villain calls and checks the 993 flop to you?

ChipLdr wrote:

By flat calling the only safe board for us is to see a K high flop which is the wrong way to approach the flop IMO.I'd rather lose $120 finding out preflop than losing a buyin "hoping" he has an underpair after the river.

Its about maximizing EV versus his range of hands. Calling is better because it maximizes the chances that he puts more money in the pot with a worse hand.

ChipLdr

Realistically the only hand calling a third reraise is AA. If he checks we have to check behind and hope we hit a K.

MrPillowTalk

ChipLdr wrote:

Realistically the only hand calling a third reraise is AA. If he checks we have to check behind and hope we hit a K.

Surely this proves that calling is better?

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

This doesn't seem right. Using some crude general maths, and making the assumption that he folds JJ/QQ preflop, but calls/pushes with AA (i.e you now know he has Aces): EV = (12 combs of QQ/JJ * $90) - (6 combs of AA * $120) = +$360.

Assuming you call and stack him when he has QQ/JJ or lose your stack to AA (on a low board), the approx EV = (12* $600) - (6 * €600) = +$3600.

OK, that maths is ropey and doesn't take everything into account, but making the play pre-flop for the reasons you give seems to have much less EV.

why do you think you will stack QQ/JJ here if you flat call?
he bets the flop ,you call or raise ,he folds or checks the turn.
bar from donkey villains how can you say you will stack him?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

What do you do if you make it 200, villain calls and checks the 993 flop to you?


Its about maximizing EV versus his range of hands. Calling is better because it maximizes the chances that he puts more money in the pot with a worse hand.

if he calls the 200 raise i would check behind on any flop unless there is a K there.
even though calling does maximize the chances of him putting more money in the pot with the worse hand ,it also maximizes the chances of you putting money in with the worse hand or folding the best hand.(when he has JJ/QQ and he bets an A high flop).

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

why do you think you will stack QQ/JJ here if you flat call?
he bets the flop ,you call or raise ,he folds or checks the turn.
bar from donkey villains how can you say you will stack him?

what if he checks the turn and you check too?
And a blank peels off, and our villain with QQ/JJ does what?

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

why do you think you will stack QQ/JJ here if you flat call?
he bets the flop ,you call or raise ,he folds or checks the turn.
bar from donkey villains how can you say you will stack him?

The theme of the thread seemed to be that opponent plays QQ/JJ the same way as AA here throughout the hand. That's all I'm going on.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

what if he checks the turn and you check too?
And a blank peels off, and our villain with QQ/JJ does what?

Ok so we say we flat call and villain has QQ/JJ then:

What any decent villain would know of our hand range:

Even though the stacks are deep and it makes for people playing with a wider range of hands because of the greater implied odds but…
We have a raise,a reriase, and a call.
Now generally this third call represents a very narrow range of hands.i think it would be safe to say JJ,QQ,KK,AA and not too often AK but generally a call here strongly suggest a very high pair and almost never an unpaired hand.
So we flat call a bet and villain who has QQ/JJ takes a flop with us.
Flop comes lower than T .villain bets the flop to see where he stands.

Now
1) Villain gets called by us .now villain knows pretty much what he needs to know and I don’t see any one (bar a donkey) having a go at this pot at all unless they improve.

2) Villains bet gets reaised by us .now once again villain knows what he wants to know and will fold.

3) Villain will check/fold from the flop on.

So on average with a decent villain we will get one more bet out of villain.
Now considering that some times flop comes A high and you will fold to villains flop bet then there is not much to be gained out of flat calling and getting villain to stay with QQ/JJ.
Getting QQ/JJ to stay in the hand is good when your hand has deception going for it. unfortunately in this situation with the way the hand has played out your pretty much defining your hand for villain no matter what you do but villains hand is not as clear to you as yours is to villain so you end up having to make tougher decision later on than villain would.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

Ok so we say we flat call and villain has QQ/JJ then:

What any decent villain would know of our hand range:

Even though the stacks are deep and it makes for people playing with a wider range of hands because of the greater implied odds but…
We have a raise,a reriase, and a call.
Now generally this third call represents a very narrow range of hands.i think it would be safe to say JJ,QQ,KK,AA and not too often AK but generally a call here strongly suggest a very high pair and almost never an unpaired hand.
So we flat call a bet and villain who has QQ/JJ takes a flop with us.
Flop comes lower than T .villain bets the flop to see where he stands.

Now
1) Villain gets called by us .now villain knows pretty much what he needs to know and I don’t see any one (bar a donkey) having a go at this pot at all unless they improve.

2) Villains bet gets reaised by us .now once again villain knows what he wants to know and will fold.

3) Villain will check/fold from the flop on.

So on average with a decent villain we will get one more bet out of villain.
Now considering that some times flop comes A high and you will fold to villains flop bet then there is not much to be gained out of flat calling and getting villain to stay with QQ/JJ.
Getting QQ/JJ to stay in the hand is good when your hand has deception going for it. unfortunately in this situation with the way the hand has played out your pretty much defining your hand for villain no matter what you do but villains hand is not as clear to you as yours is to villain so you end up having to make tougher decision later on than villain would.

Villian has just put more money in the pot with the worst hand.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

Villian has just put more money in the pot with the worst hand.

where?
and what about the times that you put money in with the worse hands?
on average hero is more vulnerable here to put money in with the worse hand than villain is.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

where?
and what about the times that you put money in with the worse hands?
on average hero is more vulnerable here to put money in with the worse hand than villain is.

So you're saying that he has AA more times than QQ/JJ/AK/TT when he re-raises preflop. Most players will put more money in on a low flop with an overpair regardless of your cold call on the button because most players are idiots.