Is The Hot Hatch Dead?

mloc123

Over the last month or two I've been looking to buy a warm/hot hatch and I've come to the conclusion that they are dying out. I settled on a 206Gti which is really only a warm hatch.

I've seen people refering to Golfs (1.4 and 1.6) as a 'hot hatch', have people forgotten what it means? I've also moticed quite a few 'Sporting' models around, most of which are 1.2 Puntos, Clios etc...

Do people have any opinions on it? Do people care? Is insurance to blame for the death of the hot hatch and have we any to look forward to? I'm waiting to see the new clio 197.

mike65

The classic hot hatch is with O'Leary in the grave.

Mike.

pburns

What about the Golf GTI, Honda Type R, 207GTI etc?

Hot hatches were never a hit in this country anyway. Tax system penalises big engines...

mloc123

Jap cars need not apply

True enough they were never too popular here, I think its down to most people being scabby. People here seem to buy the cheapest, least specced, smallest engine available.

FX Meister

The new GTi has a hatchback the last time I spoted one.

colm_mcm

Fabia VRS

mloc123

FX Meister wrote:

The new GTi has a hatchback the last time I spoted one.

What new GTi?

we'll compile a list of current hot hatches then....

wingnut

Hello.. Focus ST.

tuxy

mloc123 wrote:

I think its down to most people being scabby. People here seem to buy the cheapest, least specced, smallest engine available.

Don't you think this has more to do with insurance,VRT and petrol prices?

maidhc

And dont forget many quite sober modern cars are faster than the likes of the Mk1 and Mk2 Golf GTis.

peasant

The original hot hatch, the Golf GTI, had a 1.6l engine and 110 bhp ....BUT it weighed in well under a ton.

To make todays tanks anywhere above lukewarm and to get the same kind of driving thrill that you could get out of the original, you need to implant engines that are well over 2 litres and 250+ bhp ...and those are just waay to expensive for the average Joe Soap.

also i think, the real fascination with the early hot hatches was that you could get good performance out of a biscuit tin.

Modern cars are a lot faster ...but still somehow they feel slower.

In an old tinny hot hatch you can feel "fast" while staying in or around the speed limit ...in a modern tank you are so far removed from things that you need to go a lot faster than the speed limit to actually get the sensation of "fast"

Cyrus

hot hatch is very much alive imo

new mkiv golf gti
Focus ST
Fabia VRS
Clio 172/182/ new 197
Pug 206gti 180
Fiesta st150

loads of em

you want a really good hot hatch

buy this

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=401093

colm_mcm

They're still being made, but there are now other options for people who want something to make an imact (SUV's Hard top cabrios etc.)

Robbo

I think as cars have become lardier, the true spirit of the hot hatch has fallen by the wayside. You can throw an original Mini Cooper S around whilst staying on the good side of the law and have a whale of a time whilst feeling that you're zipping around the place.

For something in the spirit of the original mk1 Golf GTI, you could always buy my car. (edit if the pimpage wasn't subtle enough:) )

colm_mcm

Any car that is completely focused on driver enjoyment suffers in terms of refinement and safety. Hot hatches are based on run of the mill hatchbacks that are all trying to move themselves upmarket, It's an impossible combination.

mloc123

colm_mcm wrote:

Any car that is completely focused on driver enjoyment suffers in terms of refinement and safety. Hot hatches are based on run of the mill hatchbacks that are all trying to move themselves upmarket, It's an impossible combination.

Thats true and in the end thats why I went for the 206 or a 106Gti or Saxo VTS, creature comforts...

colm_mcm

I love the idea of the 106 Rallye, fair enough it's only 8 valve, but the weight saved compared to the GTI makes it prettty close.
Back to basics 80's style driving, no ABS, no leccie windows, not even alloys. but massive fun!

Ernie Ball

colm_mcm wrote:

Any car that is completely focused on driver enjoyment suffers in terms of refinement and safety. Hot hatches are based on run of the mill hatchbacks that are all trying to move themselves upmarket, It's an impossible combination.

The first sentence in your statement is absurd if you really mean "any car" and not "any hatchback." There are lots of cars that are completely focused on driver enjoyment and both refined and relatively safe. Porsches and Ferraris come to mind.

colm_mcm

Ernie Ball wrote:

The first sentence in your statement is absurd if you really mean "any car" and not "any hatchback." There are lots of cars that are completely focused on driver enjoyment and both refined and relatively safe. Porsches and Ferraris come to mind.

Sorry, meant hatchbacks.

d4r3n

colm_mcm wrote:

I love the idea of the 106 Rallye, fair enough it's only 8 valve, but the weight saved compared to the GTI makes it prettty close.
Back to basics 80's style driving, no ABS, no leccie windows, not even alloys. but massive fun!

I'm with you on that one, I love mine

colm_mcm

d4r3n wrote:

I'm with you on that one, I love mine

Oh you lucky individual!

ando

I noticed no one said Leon Cupra R :rolleyes:

sneakyST

peasant wrote:

The original hot hatch, the Golf GTI, had a 1.6l engine and 110 bhp ....BUT it weighed in well under a ton.

To make todays tanks anywhere above lukewarm and to get the same kind of driving thrill that you could get out of the original, you need to implant engines that are well over 2 litres and 250+ bhp ...and those are just waay to expensive for the average Joe Soap.

Actually around the same time if not before the Gti had competion from two cars- one was the Vauxhall chevette with 2.3 ltr engine - cant remember what the other was but it also had over 2ltrs.

Hot hatches are back in a big way - just more comfy

Henry Ford III

I'm happy with mine. 225bbhp, 5 cyliders, 6 speed, all singing all dancing

sneakyST

couldnt agree more Henry - but would you consider Bluefin - 260bhp?

Vegeta

why are Jap cars not allowed in this conversation?

mloc123

Because all Jap hatches handle like a bag of poop. One of the most important things with a hot hatch is handling.

Robbo

Vegeta wrote:

why are Jap cars not allowed in this conversation?

And producing 100 bhp/litre isn't really that impressive when it's at 15000 rpm and at the expense of all torque. Unless you're on of those borderline-autistic Honda fanboys...

Vegeta

mloc123 wrote:

Because all Jap hatches handle like a bag of poop. One of the most important things with a hot hatch is handling.

A Civic tpye R and Integra type R handle like a bag of poop?

Sure they do :rolleyes:

My brother had an Integra which he traded in against an Evo 7, which he sold and is using the money to put a 2.2 vtec accord type R engine into an integra as the Evo was too boring to drive.

cargrouch

Robbo wrote:

And producing 100 bhp/litre isn't really that impressive when it's at 15000 rpm and at the expense of all torque. Unless you're on of those borderline-autistic Honda fanboys...

And the award for "Best S*** Stirring Comment" goes to...

Robbo

cargrouch wrote:

And the award for "Best S*** Stirring Comment" goes to...

I really should have put on my asbestos suit before posting that one all right but I really don't understand this county's obsession with Hondas for the most part (although I will concede that Type Rs are very, very good).

tuxy

Robbo wrote:

I really don't understand this county's obsession with Hondas for the most part (

you think the honda's popularity amoung "boy racers" is unique to ireland?

Vegeta

Robbo wrote:

I really should have put on my asbestos suit before posting that one all right but I really don't understand this county's obsession with Hondas for the most part (although I will concede that Type Rs are very, very good).

Well i can agree with a lot of what you are saying there. The vtec engines are very good, burn a bit of oil but when you are revving to 8-9 thousand revs that's going to happen.

Another euro hot hatch, whats that front wheel drive alfa 147 with 255bhp. That would be a fast mover

R32 golfs aslo very good

mloc123

The teg isn't a hot hatch its a coupe, I may concede on the Civic Type-R but the only reason they handle well is because most of them come into the country on coilovers.

Stalet Gt/Glanza is the biggest piece of sh1t ever.

I like the 147 alright, nice styling too.

Wibbs

peasant wrote:

In an old tinny hot hatch you can feel "fast" while staying in or around the speed limit ...in a modern tank you are so far removed from things that you need to go a lot faster than the speed limit to actually get the sensation of "fast"

Nail on the head, in a big way. I noticed after I got my teg type r. No soundproofing and lightweight, means that you're very aware of your speed and drive slower strangely enough. You can feel the road better(similar to the early Gtis/Mini cooper etc). Far more fun in the bends at a slower speed than you would think. It's obviously very capable of higher speeds, but 80Mph in the thing and you would go deaf quick enough. 60Mph actually feels how fast it actually is. People are so removed from the road now, they think they're going at a "safe" speed(try 60 downhill on a pushbike and see how safe you feel:D ). Safe speed indeed, when any smack above 40Mph is quite likely to get you hurt, airbags or no). Who would have thunk it, a type R. The damn thing will probably save my licence/life.:D

colm_mcm wrote:

I love the idea of the 106 Rallye, fair enough it's only 8 valve, but the weight saved compared to the GTI makes it prettty close.
Back to basics 80's style driving, no ABS, no leccie windows, not even alloys. but massive fun!

One of the best handling FWD cars ever. No arguments. I'm always surprised they don't make it to the top of the lists of best cars. Makes something like the cupra r feel like the barge it is(flames ahoy)

Robbo wrote:

I really should have put on my asbestos suit before posting that one all right but I really don't understand this county's obsession with Hondas for the most part (although I will concede that Type Rs are very, very good).

Glad you put in the bit about type R's or there would have been trouble bucko...:D I do get your point though.

mloc123 wrote:

The teg isn't a hot hatch its a coupe, I may concede on the Civic Type-R but the only reason they handle well is because most of them come into the country on coilovers.

Bang on the money about the teg. I would have to disagree with you on the Civic though, I would suggest they handle worse on the coilovers, especially on our uneven road surfaces. On a track I'll conced the point.

prospect

http://tinyurl.com/o5hyq

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/o5hyq

decent in fairness

Henry Ford III

Vegeta wrote:

decent in fairness

Torque steer central. I've driven one and it's terrible. Chassis cannot cope with the power.

Lovely engine though.

Vegeta

Henry Ford III wrote:

Torque steer central. I've driven one and it's terrible. Chassis cannot cope with the power.

Lovely engine though.

ah bollox anyway another car that seems amazin on paper ruined for ever. still the stlying is always lovely on the alfas

My bro is putting an accord type R engine into an integra, hoping to get about 280bhp out of her. That will be interesting to say the least.

colm_mcm

I always liked Bravo HGT's. v.nice engine

bazz26

Is the now dead Clio V6 considered a hot hatch?

mloc123

I would say yes for sure, new v6 is rumored using the 350Z engine apparantly.

bazz26

mloc123 wrote:

I would say yes for sure, new v6 is rumored using the 350Z engine apparantly.

I thought they killed the project as it was never profitable?

mloc123

I dunno, it was all rumours anyway so it could be cancelled now.

pburns

Hot hatch?

I'd rather have a 'hot saloon' in the spirit of the old Peugeot 405 Mi16. Even the fast Nissan Primera of that era handled really well.

Problem with a 206/207 GTI is that it'll look exactly the same as some chaved up, platinum blonde hairdressers car. Same with Focus ST. Only one I'd consider would be the Golf GTI. Just couldn't bring myself to spend 30 grand or more on a bloody 207 or Focus.

Also, I think the time is right for a Golf GTDi or suchlike. Golf GTDs were sold in Germany years ago, I think, dunno if such a designation is still on sale in Krautland...

mloc123

There was a mk4 gt tdi golf.

bazz26

I think the Golf MkIV GT TDi was sold in the UK. It was available in 130bhp and 150bhp afaik.

I don't think it was ever sold offically in Ireland. The 150bhp TDi was sold as a Highline spec model here alright. Very quick car.

The old Seat Leon was also sold with the same 150bhp TDi engine and the Cupra R body kit.

Nobody mentioned the Skoda Octavia vRS as a hot hatch. 1.8 T litre 180bhp and relatively cheap when new, a bargin second hand with it's understated looks.

pburns

bazz26 wrote:

I think the Golf MkIV GT TDi was sold in the UK. It was available in 130bhp and 150bhp afaik.
I don't think it was ever sold offically in Ireland. The 150bhp TDi was sold as a Highline spec model here alright. Very quick car

So why don't they market a high-powered diesel in GT/GTi garb? It'd be an interesting addition to the range. Just thing VW are missing an opportunity here...

Mind you, the heavier diesel engine would probably effect handling (?)

d4r3n

ando wrote:

I noticed no one said Leon Cupra R :rolleyes:

I know of a guy who recently moved from a 106 Rallye to a Leon Cupra R, according to him theres no comparison, the Seat handle's like a big piece of poo

mloc123 wrote:

I would say yes for sure, new v6 is rumored using the 350Z engine apparantly.

They're not making a new Clio V6, and the 350Z engine is French, out of a Renault Vel Satis!

maidhc

pburns wrote:

So why don't they market a high-powered diesel in GT/GTi garb? It'd be an interesting addition to the range. Just thing VW are missing an opportunity here...

There will be a 170bhp 2.0 joining the range soon I assume.

mloc123

pburns wrote:

So why don't they market a high-powered diesel in GT/GTi garb? It'd be an interesting addition to the range. Just thing VW are missing an opportunity here...

Mind you, the heavier diesel engine would probably effect handling (?)

The UK GT TDi was the same as the GTi, recarro seats etc... People in Ireland have no interest in high spec powered cars it seems :rolleyes:

All the TDi's used the same engines, only difference afaik was the turbo and mapping. Most of the lower spec TDi's could be remapped very easily.