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Defending your home
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28-06-2006 10:47AM#1
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dudara wrote:I know that I would like to use reasonable force on people who don't punctuate and make my head hurt.
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I grew up in a house where we had a "Gun Safe" downstairs. My Dad was a licensed Firearms dealer and that brought with it an increased risk of home invasion! The Gardai told us we should try to get out if our house was attacked, or lock ourselves in one room and hope bad guys left before Gardai arrived. The response time was poor in fairness, and since I was old enough to licence one I've had a firearm in my bedroom. It's not paranoia, just the safest place for me to keep an eye on my property!
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It's one of those head vs. heart things. Obviously you wanna go all Sin City on him for an hour, butt (tee hee) if you overprotect your family you run the risk of missing them for a very long time, namely a jail sentence.
Sin City Plan: Grab Coller. Belt. Pick a Window. Jump out after him, have a gritty conversation and a smoke over him then end him an absolutley enormous revolver and go back to bed with my curvy attractive wife.:D
Reality Plan: Ring cops. Check on all loved ones and gather them. Ride the thing out with minimal me robbed interaction. Get his ass arrested.0 -
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Hi everyone.. new to boards.ie after v long soujourn!
Just wondering if this supposed change to legislation would cover protecting your family while in a hotel room or rented holiday accomodation? I also have a young family (apart from myself that is
)
I took a long weekend out with my wife and two kids last year on the west coast of Ireland. Had a family room in a small hotel... my 9year old's bed was inside a window that wouldn't lock. Imagine my suprise and shock when myself and my wife were awoken by the sound of 3 or 4 drunken male jacka55es (at about 3am) who decided it's be great craic to climb into the window directly over my sons bed to get some "free kip". (The window was the type that opened outwards and was large enough to easily step through). I was v nervous not knowing what too expect, and having woken from a deep sleep. All I could think of was someone hurting my son, so quick as you like and in ninja-movie-esque fashion I 'flew' silently across the room lept onto his bed and as the first guy (quite large i might add) went to come threw the window, I hit him in full force in the gut with my fingertips and pushed the window out ontop of him as he fell backwards.... without thinking where he'd land! :eek:
Luckily there was a fire-escape "landing" about 5/6 ft below where he landed ontop of two now squashed and very very disgruntled mates! All very funny in retrospect, but i wonder and dread what would have happened if he'd bee seriously injured???0 -
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loz wrote:well best we all put locks on bedroom doors then and make sure alarms are on.
If by locks you mean "This way to the Money" arrows and by alarms you mean "handwraps and game faces":mad: ? 0 -
Miles Long wrote:If by locks you mean "This way to the Money" arrows and by alarms you mean "handwraps and game faces":mad: ?
eh ?
locks as in secure access to our loved ones in the event of an intrusion - and alarms as in that noisy thing some houses have.
wasnt trying to be funny....0 -
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FiannaGym.com wrote:The other issue is "what to do?" I think, put a wedge under your door, call the police and relax. Getting involved. as many people have claimed (and I think in reality most people would'nt react by engaging) is juvenile and short sighted.
Peace
Thats crap Fianna. come on man..get real :mad:
put a wedge under the door??
You wake up and someone is prowling about in your home
at 3am in the morning....
Just relax and let him rob your house, destroy your possessions because you think standing up for yourself is "juvenile and short sighted"
or you address the situation, and protect what you worked hard for??
My first business I set up, I had a wee office on Gt Strand Street at back of Zanzibar, this is when it was a real scummer of a street before it was all developed down there.
I got over 20K £ of new computer network delieved and laptops and it was sitting there in the office. one saturday I was in the office and a criminal broke in while I was there. He did not know I was in there. and he was in so quick it was like a rat darting into the place.
So was I going to let him rob a few laptops that I owed money on, and destroy my business cause its "juvenile and short sighted"? No I was going to defend and protect my living, and that was 6 other people working for me.
So I jumped out, and man I was so fcuking scared I admit, and I Kiai'd karate style to loud, and booted him right out the door with a kick to the face... though I think he was so scared by the insane Kiai alone!!
Anyway I called the cops, and about 3 hours later they came... "you said you had a break in" yawn... keystone gardai!!! :rolleyes:
Anyway the scum deserved it, and it was business as usual for me!
I got 3 attempted break in's that year, all when I was there. 1 in kicked, 1 I pushed out the door, and luckilty there was a rarely efficent guardai passing who arrested him... turned out he was wanted for about 40 robberies!!!!
Keith Hayes from Belcamp Green in Coolock was his name, as far as I can remember. anyone know him???
Last one I caught too, he ran, we called the cops...who came about 3 hours later...usual routine...!!!
see when you got to protect your livelyhood and business... especially in a rough area...you got to do the job yourself (if you can) and get the message out, as many of these guys know each other, to stay away from No. 27!
It not fun, it was scary...but I am not going to let some scum take my stuff i worked hard for, or worse destroy my businesses..0 -
Millionaire wrote:see when you got to protect your livelyhood and business... especially in a rough area...you got to do the job yourself (if you can) and get the message out, as many of these guys know each other, to stay away from No. 27!
I would also point out that you need to be careful. You really don't know who you are dealing with and they can easily come back with a mate or two seeking some retribution.
Quite literally they will know where you live.:(0 -
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LAAngel wrote:Well when I moved into my new house about 2 years ago, I had just furnished it and all, and was out at work, my future in-laws were helping paint a house across the road when they notice a number of people from around the age 17 -22 trying to gain access to my house, they tried to get in through the window, tried getting through the front door, actually left big dents where they were kicking the door and then when that failed they tried the back gate, which i had padlocked. Someone had called the police and when they came the gang ran off the police followed them but didn't catch them. When I came back and found out, I freaked out, all I could think of is what if me and my daughter had been in? What if they got in? Now I know I can defend myself, but what happens if its a gang of people? What if it was someone that could overpower me, and they harmed my daughter? So I went out, was gonna buy a metal baseball bat, but now have a metal weight bar that I keep under my bed, my mum also gave me a knife block.
Now not saying that if someone broke in while I was in then I'd attack them and try and beat the **** outta them, I'd try and protect my family and get us outta there and call the police, but what happens if you can't get out and the person that broke in has more on their mind that stealing a few things (after all they can be replaced), there are some really sick people out there, and if I was in a situation where I had to fight I wouldn't think twice about using the weight bar to crack their skull open or stabbing them to protect my family after all they broke in. It's terrible that some thiefs can claim for injuries when they were the ones to break in. Did you hear about the theif who claimed off a woman who's house he was breaking into after he fell through the roof of her glass conservatory, how bad is that.
On another note my fella was on my brothers stag do in Liverpool, when someone broke into his hotel room and stole £40 off him and £200 off his friend also stole my fella's phone, and hit another 9 rooms with people in them!!!
LAANGEL you are great! Fair play to you.
If more people, women too, went out and bought iron bars and give it
to a criminal who broke me, rest assured.... there would be alot less crime in Ireland.
I love Flordia in USA, I spent a bit of time in Miami, and down there everyone had a legal gun at home, women and all, and the law is if someone comes in to your home with intentions of crime, who can shoot them down to protect your home and family. Thats a good law!
I would shoot a criminal for fun.. these guys pray on poor old widows and poor old farmers who live alone, and 1000s of old people in ireland, living alone are terrified out of their wits each and everyday. Think of them?
look how often you read in paper of crime like this... these crims deserve to get it..big time.
This so called "name about town" tried to put it up to me and hit me in a club one night in the face, started on me for no reason at all, well I gave him such a pasting, I mean a real good pasting, just because of who he was, I would say his head is still spinning today. and I got him arrested after and taken away...just for good measure! 0 -
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I'm going to break my answer down into three sections;
1). What I advise my students as a Reality Based Instructor who teaches a specific course on this called Crime Survival (shameless plug, :rolleyes: )
2). What I personally have done recently during an attempted break in
3). What I would have liked to have done.
1). Many people feel the law is on the side of the criminal as regards buglaries and home invasion. It's not. It's on your side, but you as an upsatnding law abiding citizen cannot just beat the tar out of them just becasue they broke in. Look at Padraig McNally, he shot the man who enetered his home and died. John Lancaster attemoted the same. (I discuss both of these cases in detail in my free ebook use of froce the law and self defence).
The reason for this is becasue of the what we in RBPP call the Elements of Assault. Basically this means you need three things in order to justify a physical response.
Oppertunity (he is in your home and does have the oppertunity to attack you).
Means (he can assault you e.g. he isn't so drunk he can't fight)
Intent (this is where it falls down - his intent is to rob you, not necessarily harm you). If he doens't intend to hurt you then you cannot reasonably assault him. You can verbally warn him to leave, but you cannot hit the guy.
Now before you say that's unreasonavble - it's not. Most criminals are cowerdly and superstitous and over 80% of the robberies commited are oppertunistic in nature. If they are caught most run. Problem solved.
Now if they chooose not to and saty or go to attack you, then you can defend yourself physicaly - the decision to use deadly force is dictated by the circumsatnces. If he pulls a knife I would not hesitate to kill him - he has means, oppertunity and now intent. Furthermore he has escalated the situation to lethal force. It's at this point if I have a sidearm I would shoot him. i would then have to justify that decision in court and would use the arguement above as well as illustrate it with the use of force ladder.
This neatly brings me to another point - education. I know the criminal statistics on buglaries here in Ireland, the UK and US. Of course when I mention these I'm often accussed of fear mongering but I'd like to show you a better way.
Rather than freaking out over statistics such as these;- A burglary takes place on average every 30 seconds in the Uk and Ireland
- 80% are opppertunistic e.g. leaving the front door open while you drop in to the neighbours.
- 20% don't force an entry they walk right in
- 60% target a premisis from the rear - less visability
- More occur during the day than at night casue everyone's at work.
Now that tells me a lot - primarily have all windows and doors secured and locked, and that the rear of my home should be secured with strong doors and gates, denying easy entry at all times.
If they are in your home - you screwed up and presented them with an easy target. Peter Sucliffe, a notorious serial killer picked his victims in similar manner - he went around the back of houses till he fgound one with an open door then killed the people inside. If it wasn;'t easy to get in he just went to the next one.
Do you have to have bars on the windows? No, but obvious vdieo cameras (they don't have to work), good lighting, secured and strong locks on all rear entry points , and a loud dog will all discourage someone form entering your home, they'll go find an easier target.
Secure your home, make yourself a hard target and you greatly reduce the chances of being in the situation above.
2). In my area we recently had a spate of robberies. They were entering from the rear door and cuttign the glass out of the back panel and then opening it up. The stole easy to get items, cash jewry, car keys etc. In, out, gone.
One everning I got a paniked call from my neighbours teenage daughter. She was in the house with a femal freind and they heard someone in the back garden and saw a face passing the window. they were very scared and had the common sense to call their parents. the police and then me.
I immediately went upstairs and took out my digital camera located at my bedisde beside my torch, cell phone and side arm - all fully charged. I took the camera leaned out the window and photographed the area quickly capturing thier faces and evidence.
I then went next door and secured the only exit out while calling my friends and verbally shouting for assistance. They were trapped and they new it. once I had this attention I entered the house to ensure the saftey of the girls while we waited for the gardai. I put the girls in a safe room - a room hard to access from ground floor but one through which they could escape if necessary. I then waited.
The Gardai arrived and arrested them. I filled out an Incident Recollection Card (a credit card size sheet given to all RBPP students to assist in evidence preservation) and handed over the photos I had taken.
3). What I would have liked to have done - shot them all in the knee cap and torture them for info regarding their targets, methods and location of stolen goods - but thats Jack Bowers job, not mine.
The best thing you can do in that situation is establish intent - if they are there to rob you they'll run. If not hurt them very hard very quickly. If you ahve a familt train and prep them to respond apporiately - run to and secure a designated safe room containing a portable charged phone, food and perhaps a weapon. Collect evidence. Stay alert adn remeber your wordly possessions don't mean anything if you're dead or a loved one is hurt - we have insurance for a reason. Nothing you own is as valuable as your life. If that is what they are after as unlikely as that may be, then its an easy choice to make.0 -
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Yep mate, fraid your guilty. That said I;m sure you could make a decent case of it, e.g. you were witnessing a crime in progress, he's a known offender etc...
Leaglly though, what you did was commit assault. You responded to a non-violent situation with what could be deemed and Un-reasonable use of force. Furthermore you grabbed him by the throat and slammed him full foce into the wall - correct? In that situation he could have been justified in responding with lethal force - you smashed in to a wall where he could have suffered a serious secondary impact injury resulting in his death, also your are constricting his airway supply and could choke him out.
Here's how I would deal with that story if presented in a class...I'd put you in the witness stand and take you apart...for instance...
"My client (the alleged thief) was walking by Arnotts when he noticed that this lady was about to lose her purse. He went over to let her know this and was just about to point it out when a vicious thug grabed him by hte throat and smashed him in to a wall. What's more this monster is with us now in court. "
Did you or did you not physically grab my client and smash him into a wall and choke him?
Did he apporach you in a threatenining manner? No
Did he approach the ladies you were allegdely saving in a violent manner? No, certainly not.
In fact is it not true that you wihtout any provication seriously assaulted my client? Yes
Now is it not also true that you study and taught a system called Krav Maga? Yes.
Now for those of you who don't know ladies and gentleman Krav Maga is a military system of close quaters combat. The purpose of which is to cripple or kill your opponetent. In fact Krav Maga is the primary fighting mehtod of Isralei troops! Now why I ask you is this man learning Military assination technqiues! This man before you is a delusional pyschotic. A paranoid violent man who sees deadly targets everywhere and went and studied a military system of violence and exexution...etc etc etc...
You get the idea. In a court of law making you out to be a nothing more than a vicious violence obsessed wanabee vigilante. Becasue of the arts you've studied and the manner in which you engaged him a clever lawyer could take you apart. This is one of the things i teach in Crime Survival - Courtroom Survival, if you want you can see actual video footage of Jim Wagner interrogating someone in the witness stand in my ebook.
Now I think what you did was right, I personally would like to have loped off both his hands above the wrist and sentanced him to cleaning out the latrines after the Gardai Kerbab night for a year afterwards. :rolleyes:
Your reaction was typical of someone who knows what he'd doing in a fight and has a good sense of morals. I did something similar once and ended up arrested in front of girlfriend, frineds and teachers in college. For 6 months my life and that of my family was hell. - I was cleared of all charges simply because they were made up and exaggerated and proven false. Thats when I got smart about things...if I ever want to do something like that again I'll do it in Batman cosutme...:D
In your sistuation above the sensible thing would have been to verbally alert people tot he situation - a strong call of "He's trying to steal your purse" would probably have him running, which you should be doing anyway towards him. If not and he then urgently and violently goes to take the purse you can restrain him. By this I mean a simple takedown and call for assistance. You don't have the right to beat him. If he resits you can respond with equal force..if he pulls a knife I'd let him go. If he insists on confronting me then I'd respond with deadly force.
I would be able to defend myself legally quite well as there has been a progression in the Use of Force Ladder. I would also have that all important testimony that I verbally called out and stated that a crime was about to be commited expecting the guy to run away. He didn't, he attakced me as I tried ot restrain him, pulled a knife and I then had no choice but to defend my life....see how it goes...
I drill incidents like this frequently into my students. I will have them run scenarios where htye guy runs off, or deosn;t and then pulls a knfe or its just fists, or worse his freinds come over to lend him a hand and see how the student respons and defends himself. Afterwards we interview them in a police manner, ge the to write a report etc. Then if in that scenario is necessary, say they respond the way you did, I'd put thenm in the dock and hold a mock trial.
This is a CRUCIAL aspect of the Martial Arts - particularly in light of current day trends ot sue everybody. Sure you can defend yourslef on the street but can you surive the fight in court?
As regards the side-arm issue, a side-arm can be many things....my personal favourite is a nice metal balpoint pen. That said as a Handgun Survival instructor well...I have lots of toys in my house....
If you read the text I gave again, I didn't bring a gun with me at any point. There was no need, also there is the question of intent. If I bring a gun next door in suspicious crcumstances a strong case could be made that I intened to use it. I just need a nice sharp biro and I'm good. 0 -
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FiannaGym.com wrote:It's a real shame there's no criminologists on here.
Peace
since ya asked.... I got 2 semester credits in Criminology.
Have you ever called the guards?
They never come in time.0 -
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