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Defending your home

  • 28-06-2006 10:47am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭


    alot of discussion going on at d moment bout weather it should be made legal to defend your home and family to any cost when a house is broken into.i know the current law refers to resonable force but whats resonable? just wondering what the martial arts world feels bout this issue.how far would you go?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,679 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    12 Gauge loaded with rock salt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I know that I would like to use reasonable force on people who don't punctuate and make my head hurt.

    Regarding the OT, I think that most MA'ers will be very reluctant to initiate confrontation of any form. We all know how quickly things can go against you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    dudara wrote:
    I know that I would like to use reasonable force on people who don't punctuate and make my head hurt.
    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Andrew_M


    dudara wrote:
    Regarding the OT, I think that most MA'ers will be very reluctant to initiate confrontation of any form. We all know how quickly things can go against you.

    Dont agree, some scumbag breaks into your house, you pick up a hurley and wrap it around his head, the last thing you should be is reluctant to initiate confrontation.

    I fully support this new legislation. As regards reasonable force, i think any person who breaks into anothers house be it to rob or cause harm, forefits all rights to reasonable force.

    Best option is always to call the gardai first, but after that you lay the whomp down BIG TIME


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I agree that the new legislation is long overdue, and is a very good thing indeed. People should, and will have, the right to defend their home, in a reasonable manner.

    However, I stand by my original point. You simply never know how a confrontation is going to pan out.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Musashi


    I grew up in a house where we had a "Gun Safe" downstairs. My Dad was a licensed Firearms dealer and that brought with it an increased risk of home invasion! The Gardai told us we should try to get out if our house was attacked, or lock ourselves in one room and hope bad guys left before Gardai arrived. The response time was poor in fairness, and since I was old enough to licence one I've had a firearm in my bedroom. It's not paranoia, just the safest place for me to keep an eye on my property! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Andrew_M


    True, i suppose you dont know how it will turn out, but i'd like to think if anything like that did ever happen(touch wood) id get stuck in and hopefully come out on top...

    Dont think doing MA would have much of an influence on whether id go for the guy or not, but i wouldnt think badly of anyone that, just stayed safe in their room and waited for the guys to leave either, just down to your individual personality

    Either way, glad we will soon have the option without having to think about the legal ramifications


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 278 ✭✭Miles Long


    What's mad is there are people who go into your house to get hurt and eventually get more money out of than they could have ever robbed, for this reason I back the legislation.

    This legislation won't change assault the legislation already in place. Regardless of the situations GBH is GBH. Just because he is in your house doesn't mean that you have more justification in beating the piss out of him than you do on the street.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Musashi


    MA or not, I've heard of cases where people woke up, had beenburgled and found their own kettle on the upstairs landing?

    Seems the burglars used to enter, boil up a pot of water, and place it on the landing to throw if anyone woke up to investigate noises? MA isn't helping a face of scalding water at four AM! My kettle has an electronic whistle when it boils, purely by chance but I'll keep it after hearing that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    If anyone broke into my home, I would knee them (amongst other strikes) in the balls so hard they would think twice about doing such a thing again.

    Back in Dublin, our house had been broken into about 5 times over the years, and I had a big hard wood Dublin Metropolitian Police batton from about 1900 under the bed. Man they don't make batons like this one no more! :-)

    Its a great batton too, served the family well.
    It was my grandfathers he was a in the Gardai.
    One night someone was trying to steal the car
    and my father heard it, grabbed the batton
    and it the criminal a few almighty clatters with it! LOL!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Miles Long wrote:
    This legislation won't change assault the legislation already in place. Regardless of the situations GBH is GBH.

    That's the thing. You still can't beat the sh*te out of the robber, it has to be reasonable force.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    dudara wrote:
    That's the thing. You still can't beat the sh*te out of the robber, it has to be reasonable force.

    Of course you can. Teach him a lesson not to be robbing houses.

    I'm no time for thieves. If anyone breaks into my house, I'll do everything in my power to make sure they can't walk. If they don't like how I've treated them, tough - Don't break into my house.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Back in Dublin, our house had been broken into about 5 times over the years, and I had a big hard wood
    I read this sentence ALL WRONG!:D

    Seriously though, I've a wife and kid, and my first priority would be to make sure they didn't get hurt, and that means getting the person out of the house, not keeping him around to beat on him and the added risk of him running into the bedrooms in the middle of getting his ass kicked. A burgulary can feel like a violation, but ultimately whatever they take are just things, thats all, get them out, if you can catch them, great, ring the cops and keep yourself out of legal trouble.

    LOL at "I'd teach them not to break in to a house by kicking his head in!"
    Do you really think a guy who breaks into houses for a living (obviously a desperate fvcker) is going to learn from that? It might give you some satisfaction but he'll be doing it again. Still, might be worth it just to be able to say you didn't let him away soft.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Very funny story!

    When I was living down in Limerick the house I was in was broken into one night….one of the guys I was living with woke up and came into my room and told me he thought someone was downstairs….after listening I could hear someone moving about. He says "I'm gonna run down stairs and scare the **** out of him!". I said "How will you do that."

    His answer??? "Naked".

    Of he runs down stairs, balls naked and screaming like a banshee….the guy ( I assume it was a guy ) let out this scream and legged it back out the window he had come through.

    Man, I was crying laughing for about an hour, wish I could have seen the poor dudes face!!!!

    So there you go, "When defending your home, nudity is best!!!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 278 ✭✭Miles Long


    It's one of those head vs. heart things. Obviously you wanna go all Sin City on him for an hour, butt (tee hee) if you overprotect your family you run the risk of missing them for a very long time, namely a jail sentence.

    Sin City Plan: Grab Coller. Belt. Pick a Window. :D Jump out after him, have a gritty conversation and a smoke over him then end him an absolutley enormous revolver and go back to bed with my curvy attractive wife.:D

    Reality Plan: Ring cops. Check on all loved ones and gather them. Ride the thing out with minimal me robbed interaction. Get his ass arrested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Whizzo


    Last thing I'd do is confront these scumbags, I've the shotgun in the wardrobe and 2 cartridges in a secure location where the kids can't access them, if someone appears upstairs, then they have crossed my line in the sand. Downstairs is different, upstairs is where my wife. kids and 12 gauge are.No No land to burglars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 interl00per


    Hi everyone.. new to boards.ie after v long soujourn!
    Just wondering if this supposed change to legislation would cover protecting your family while in a hotel room or rented holiday accomodation? I also have a young family (apart from myself that is ;) )

    I took a long weekend out with my wife and two kids last year on the west coast of Ireland. Had a family room in a small hotel... my 9year old's bed was inside a window that wouldn't lock. Imagine my suprise and shock when myself and my wife were awoken by the sound of 3 or 4 drunken male jacka55es (at about 3am) who decided it's be great craic to climb into the window directly over my sons bed to get some "free kip". (The window was the type that opened outwards and was large enough to easily step through). I was v nervous not knowing what too expect, and having woken from a deep sleep. All I could think of was someone hurting my son, so quick as you like and in ninja-movie-esque fashion I 'flew' silently across the room lept onto his bed and as the first guy (quite large i might add) went to come threw the window, I hit him in full force in the gut with my fingertips and pushed the window out ontop of him as he fell backwards.... without thinking where he'd land! :eek:
    Luckily there was a fire-escape "landing" about 5/6 ft below where he landed ontop of two now squashed and very very disgruntled mates! All very funny in retrospect, but i wonder and dread what would have happened if he'd bee seriously injured???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭loz


    dudara wrote:
    That's the thing. You still can't beat the sh*te out of the robber, it has to be reasonable force.

    Course you can ! - you just dump them out onto the road though after !


    What they going to do report it ?

    " officer i was assaulted whist burgling that house !"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 966 ✭✭✭GerryRyan


    I can't remember when - but there was a show on SkyOne a while back on how to handle certain situations. The first week they dealt with a break in.

    Few of the tips given:
    1) Let it be known that you're in the house
    2) Shout out that the police are on the way
    3) Go downstairs only as a last resort as they could be armed etc

    I'm can't remember all of them, but if you google the show you might find something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 278 ✭✭Miles Long


    loz wrote:
    Course you can ! - you just dump them out onto the road though after !


    What they going to do report it ?

    " officer i was assaulted whist burgling that house !"
    Loz man, That's the point of this new ruling, dudes do do that very thing and win the claim. The hardest thing for the robber there wouldn't be convincing him that he's in the right about getting beaten whilst robber you gaff, It'd be convincing the cop that he was infact in the house at all. I've heard about that, drag the punter out of your gaff and then go Michael Flatley on him and bolt. But then you're just into a hit and run assault.

    This really about what's right and what's lawful.:p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    The complexity lies in the fact that "you are innocent until proven guilty". So it would be fine if the dude was tried by a jury of his peers and found guilty of breaking and entering, and then you beat him up. But the presumption of innocence means you are denying the dude a fair "trail" by assuming he is guitly of burglery with out a trial. Thats the issue with the legislation. However, I suppost it because it will be quite difficult to abuse.

    The other issue is "what to do?" I think, put a wedge under your door, call the police and relax. Getting involved. as many people have claimed (and I think in reality most people would'nt react by engaging) is juvenile and short sighted.

    Peace


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭loz


    Miles Long wrote:
    Loz man, That's the point of this new ruling, dudes do do that very thing and win the claim. The hardest thing for the robber there wouldn't be convincing him that he's in the right about getting beaten whilst robber you gaff, It'd be convincing the cop that he was infact in the house at all. I've heard about that, drag the punter out of your gaff and then go Michael Flatley on him and bolt. But then you're just into a hit and run assault.

    This really about what's right and what's lawful.:p

    well best we all put locks on bedroom doors then and make sure alarms are on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 278 ✭✭Miles Long


    loz wrote:
    well best we all put locks on bedroom doors then and make sure alarms are on.

    If by locks you mean "This way to the Money" arrows and by alarms you mean "handwraps and game faces":mad: ?
    :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭loz


    Miles Long wrote:
    If by locks you mean "This way to the Money" arrows and by alarms you mean "handwraps and game faces":mad: ?
    :D

    eh ?

    locks as in secure access to our loved ones in the event of an intrusion - and alarms as in that noisy thing some houses have.

    wasnt trying to be funny....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Ah SkyOne,
    I love their shows about "how to survive deadly killer bees" and "crash bang wallop what a video".

    Fianna is correct,
    Beating a burglar is in violation of the burglar's rights as a citizen of this fair land. Might sound crass but I'm afraid the same law of the land that protects him also protects your rights and freedoms. When living in a democracy, one has to accept these seeming inequities of the equal;).

    Hey, don't get me wrong. If someone wants to come into my house and rob it, I'd love to go medieval, but I'm a little more rational than that and even with all the rage, I think my priority would be to protect myself and my family first rather than going gung ho into a situation in which my opponent is unknown and bound to be prepared better than I. Even if I bring a golf club what chance he has a knife?

    As for our shotgun wielding Punishers above, its not that long since this case farmer

    Now hmmm, let me think. Lock myself in a room, call the cops and wait it out, sweep up the broken glass and make an insurance claim or go to the slammer for a few years....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    The other issue is "what to do?" I think, put a wedge under your door, call the police and relax. Getting involved. as many people have claimed (and I think in reality most people would'nt react by engaging) is juvenile and short sighted.

    Peace

    Thats crap Fianna. come on man..get real :mad:
    put a wedge under the door??

    You wake up and someone is prowling about in your home
    at 3am in the morning....

    Just relax and let him rob your house, destroy your possessions because you think standing up for yourself is "juvenile and short sighted"

    or you address the situation, and protect what you worked hard for??

    My first business I set up, I had a wee office on Gt Strand Street at back of Zanzibar, this is when it was a real scummer of a street before it was all developed down there.

    I got over 20K £ of new computer network delieved and laptops and it was sitting there in the office. one saturday I was in the office and a criminal broke in while I was there. He did not know I was in there. and he was in so quick it was like a rat darting into the place.

    So was I going to let him rob a few laptops that I owed money on, and destroy my business cause its "juvenile and short sighted"? No I was going to defend and protect my living, and that was 6 other people working for me.
    So I jumped out, and man I was so fcuking scared I admit, and I Kiai'd karate style to loud, and booted him right out the door with a kick to the face... though I think he was so scared by the insane Kiai alone!! :D

    Anyway I called the cops, and about 3 hours later they came... "you said you had a break in" yawn... keystone gardai!!! :rolleyes:

    Anyway the scum deserved it, and it was business as usual for me!

    I got 3 attempted break in's that year, all when I was there. 1 in kicked, 1 I pushed out the door, and luckilty there was a rarely efficent guardai passing who arrested him... turned out he was wanted for about 40 robberies!!!!
    Keith Hayes from Belcamp Green in Coolock was his name, as far as I can remember. anyone know him???

    Last one I caught too, he ran, we called the cops...who came about 3 hours later...usual routine...!!!

    see when you got to protect your livelyhood and business... especially in a rough area...you got to do the job yourself (if you can) and get the message out, as many of these guys know each other, to stay away from No. 27! ;)

    It not fun, it was scary...but I am not going to let some scum take my stuff i worked hard for, or worse destroy my businesses..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    see when you got to protect your livelyhood and business... especially in a rough area...you got to do the job yourself (if you can) and get the message out, as many of these guys know each other, to stay away from No. 27! ;)

    I would also point out that you need to be careful. You really don't know who you are dealing with and they can easily come back with a mate or two seeking some retribution.

    Quite literally they will know where you live.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    By and large Millionare I stand by what I said. Anyone I've spoken to who burgled tells me that they break into the back of the gaf (were not talking pro car theives here), usually into the kitchen where they imidiately secure a knife.

    So when I wake up at 3 in the morning I'll stay in my bedroom, and allow the 1, 2 , 3 or 4 dudes? with knives / suringes?

    Forget it, for me they can steal expensive stuff (not sentimental, valuable to me, worthless to others) and I'll claim on it later.

    Besides, as an athelte I'm not going to risk / waste my abilities on a junky. There are just too many unknowns for me. And while Millionare might kick and kia (I like that dude) his way through the bad guys, I think most people will do what I consider the more sensible thing.

    Peace


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭LAAngel


    Well when I moved into my new house about 2 years ago, I had just furnished it and all, and was out at work, my future in-laws were helping paint a house across the road when they notice a number of people from around the age 17 -22 trying to gain access to my house, they tried to get in through the window, tried getting through the front door, actually left big dents where they were kicking the door and then when that failed they tried the back gate, which i had padlocked. Someone had called the police and when they came the gang ran off the police followed them but didn't catch them. When I came back and found out, I freaked out, all I could think of is what if me and my daughter had been in? What if they got in? Now I know I can defend myself, but what happens if its a gang of people? What if it was someone that could overpower me, and they harmed my daughter? So I went out, was gonna buy a metal baseball bat, but now have a metal weight bar that I keep under my bed, my mum also gave me a knife block.

    Now not saying that if someone broke in while I was in then I'd attack them and try and beat the **** outta them, I'd try and protect my family and get us outta there and call the police, but what happens if you can't get out and the person that broke in has more on their mind that stealing a few things (after all they can be replaced), there are some really sick people out there, and if I was in a situation where I had to fight I wouldn't think twice about using the weight bar to crack their skull open or stabbing them to protect my family after all they broke in. It's terrible that some thiefs can claim for injuries when they were the ones to break in. Did you hear about the theif who claimed off a woman who's house he was breaking into after he fell through the roof of her glass conservatory, how bad is that.

    On another note my fella was on my brothers stag do in Liverpool, when someone broke into his hotel room and stole £40 off him and £200 off his friend also stole my fella's phone, and hit another 9 rooms with people in them!!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    True, they can come back. But if I thought that the laptops would have been gone, and I would have been out of a job and 20K in debt.

    Of course, I was aware of that, and kept and eye out always down there.

    The robbers down on Strand Street back then about 6 years ago, were real ballsy... they would try and break in, if you turned your back for a minute.. I seen it almost daily.

    I really really hate criminals, and back then my attitude was, I am doing good here, creating 6 and later 14 jobs for people, so if you want to mess that up..... etc etc etc... sort of you can kill me, but I will take one of you with me!

    Criminals are scum of the earth cowards! lazy bsatards who are too weak to get a proper job and work like a real man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭LAAngel


    Criminals are scum of the earth cowards! lazy bsatards who are too weak to get a proper job and work like a real man.

    Totally agree with you there


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Heinrich


    LAAngel wrote:
    Totally agree with you there

    Sadly they have a mandate under our wonderful constitution. Criminals have better protection from the law than do their victims.

    I would subscribe to the kick their heads in and dump them outside suggestion. When Minister MacDowell employs adequate PROFESSIONAL garda resources we might feel safer in ringing the Gardai. Waiting for three hours will give the criminal sufficient time to empty your house of anything of value.

    What about the burglar alarms which ring incessantly for hours on end? Do you think that the burglar cares or maybe they are hard of hearing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    LAAngel wrote:
    Well when I moved into my new house about 2 years ago, I had just furnished it and all, and was out at work, my future in-laws were helping paint a house across the road when they notice a number of people from around the age 17 -22 trying to gain access to my house, they tried to get in through the window, tried getting through the front door, actually left big dents where they were kicking the door and then when that failed they tried the back gate, which i had padlocked. Someone had called the police and when they came the gang ran off the police followed them but didn't catch them. When I came back and found out, I freaked out, all I could think of is what if me and my daughter had been in? What if they got in? Now I know I can defend myself, but what happens if its a gang of people? What if it was someone that could overpower me, and they harmed my daughter? So I went out, was gonna buy a metal baseball bat, but now have a metal weight bar that I keep under my bed, my mum also gave me a knife block.

    Now not saying that if someone broke in while I was in then I'd attack them and try and beat the **** outta them, I'd try and protect my family and get us outta there and call the police, but what happens if you can't get out and the person that broke in has more on their mind that stealing a few things (after all they can be replaced), there are some really sick people out there, and if I was in a situation where I had to fight I wouldn't think twice about using the weight bar to crack their skull open or stabbing them to protect my family after all they broke in. It's terrible that some thiefs can claim for injuries when they were the ones to break in. Did you hear about the theif who claimed off a woman who's house he was breaking into after he fell through the roof of her glass conservatory, how bad is that.

    On another note my fella was on my brothers stag do in Liverpool, when someone broke into his hotel room and stole £40 off him and £200 off his friend also stole my fella's phone, and hit another 9 rooms with people in them!!!

    LAANGEL you are great! Fair play to you.

    If more people, women too, went out and bought iron bars and give it
    to a criminal who broke me, rest assured.... there would be alot less crime in Ireland.

    I love Flordia in USA, I spent a bit of time in Miami, and down there everyone had a legal gun at home, women and all, and the law is if someone comes in to your home with intentions of crime, who can shoot them down to protect your home and family. Thats a good law!

    I would shoot a criminal for fun.. these guys pray on poor old widows and poor old farmers who live alone, and 1000s of old people in ireland, living alone are terrified out of their wits each and everyday. Think of them?
    look how often you read in paper of crime like this... these crims deserve to get it..big time.

    This so called "name about town" tried to put it up to me and hit me in a club one night in the face, started on me for no reason at all, well I gave him such a pasting, I mean a real good pasting, just because of who he was, I would say his head is still spinning today. and I got him arrested after and taken away...just for good measure! ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭newby.204


    Dragan wrote:
    I would also point out that you need to be careful. You really don't know who you are dealing with and they can easily come back with a mate or two seeking some retribution.

    Quite literally they will know where you live.:(

    IF someone comes upstairs and you have a firearm, you have just engaged a thug whos "fight or flight" adrenaline should have just kicked in!!!

    If he runs off, he no doubt be scared sh!tless of "the mad ****3r with the gun"

    If he runs at you, well i hope you have the intention of pulling that trigger, short sighted yes, but what are you going to do with your life when you and possibly your family are six foot under!!!


    I dont know what id do, ego aside, but if i took the gun out id like to hope he wouldn get it off me!!

    Just my opinion for firearms owners!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    I'm going to break my answer down into three sections;

    1). What I advise my students as a Reality Based Instructor who teaches a specific course on this called Crime Survival (shameless plug, :rolleyes: )

    2). What I personally have done recently during an attempted break in

    3). What I would have liked to have done.



    1). Many people feel the law is on the side of the criminal as regards buglaries and home invasion. It's not. It's on your side, but you as an upsatnding law abiding citizen cannot just beat the tar out of them just becasue they broke in. Look at Padraig McNally, he shot the man who enetered his home and died. John Lancaster attemoted the same. (I discuss both of these cases in detail in my free ebook use of froce the law and self defence).

    The reason for this is becasue of the what we in RBPP call the Elements of Assault. Basically this means you need three things in order to justify a physical response.

    Oppertunity (he is in your home and does have the oppertunity to attack you).

    Means (he can assault you e.g. he isn't so drunk he can't fight)

    Intent (this is where it falls down - his intent is to rob you, not necessarily harm you). If he doens't intend to hurt you then you cannot reasonably assault him. You can verbally warn him to leave, but you cannot hit the guy.

    Now before you say that's unreasonavble - it's not. Most criminals are cowerdly and superstitous and over 80% of the robberies commited are oppertunistic in nature. If they are caught most run. Problem solved.

    Now if they chooose not to and saty or go to attack you, then you can defend yourself physicaly - the decision to use deadly force is dictated by the circumsatnces. If he pulls a knife I would not hesitate to kill him - he has means, oppertunity and now intent. Furthermore he has escalated the situation to lethal force. It's at this point if I have a sidearm I would shoot him. i would then have to justify that decision in court and would use the arguement above as well as illustrate it with the use of force ladder.

    This neatly brings me to another point - education. I know the criminal statistics on buglaries here in Ireland, the UK and US. Of course when I mention these I'm often accussed of fear mongering but I'd like to show you a better way.

    Rather than freaking out over statistics such as these;
    • A burglary takes place on average every 30 seconds in the Uk and Ireland
    • 80% are opppertunistic e.g. leaving the front door open while you drop in to the neighbours.
    • 20% don't force an entry they walk right in
    • 60% target a premisis from the rear - less visability
    • More occur during the day than at night casue everyone's at work.

    Now that tells me a lot - primarily have all windows and doors secured and locked, and that the rear of my home should be secured with strong doors and gates, denying easy entry at all times.

    If they are in your home - you screwed up and presented them with an easy target. Peter Sucliffe, a notorious serial killer picked his victims in similar manner - he went around the back of houses till he fgound one with an open door then killed the people inside. If it wasn;'t easy to get in he just went to the next one.

    Do you have to have bars on the windows? No, but obvious vdieo cameras (they don't have to work), good lighting, secured and strong locks on all rear entry points , and a loud dog will all discourage someone form entering your home, they'll go find an easier target.

    Secure your home, make yourself a hard target and you greatly reduce the chances of being in the situation above.

    2). In my area we recently had a spate of robberies. They were entering from the rear door and cuttign the glass out of the back panel and then opening it up. The stole easy to get items, cash jewry, car keys etc. In, out, gone.

    One everning I got a paniked call from my neighbours teenage daughter. She was in the house with a femal freind and they heard someone in the back garden and saw a face passing the window. they were very scared and had the common sense to call their parents. the police and then me.

    I immediately went upstairs and took out my digital camera located at my bedisde beside my torch, cell phone and side arm - all fully charged. I took the camera leaned out the window and photographed the area quickly capturing thier faces and evidence.

    I then went next door and secured the only exit out while calling my friends and verbally shouting for assistance. They were trapped and they new it. once I had this attention I entered the house to ensure the saftey of the girls while we waited for the gardai. I put the girls in a safe room - a room hard to access from ground floor but one through which they could escape if necessary. I then waited.

    The Gardai arrived and arrested them. I filled out an Incident Recollection Card (a credit card size sheet given to all RBPP students to assist in evidence preservation) and handed over the photos I had taken.

    3). What I would have liked to have done - shot them all in the knee cap and torture them for info regarding their targets, methods and location of stolen goods - but thats Jack Bowers job, not mine. ;)

    The best thing you can do in that situation is establish intent - if they are there to rob you they'll run. If not hurt them very hard very quickly. If you ahve a familt train and prep them to respond apporiately - run to and secure a designated safe room containing a portable charged phone, food and perhaps a weapon. Collect evidence. Stay alert adn remeber your wordly possessions don't mean anything if you're dead or a loved one is hurt - we have insurance for a reason. Nothing you own is as valuable as your life. If that is what they are after as unlikely as that may be, then its an easy choice to make.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭newby.204


    Boru. wrote:
    2). In my area we recently had a spate of robberies. They were entering from the rear door and cuttign the glass out of the back panel and then opening it up. The stole easy to get items, cash jewry, car keys etc. In, out, gone.

    One everning I got a paniked call from my neighbours teenage daughter. She was in the house with a femal freind and they heard someone in the back garden and saw a face passing the window. they were very scared and had the common sense to call their parents. the police and then me.

    I immediately went upstairs and took out my digital camera located at my bedisde beside my torch, cell phone and side arm - all fully charged. I took the camera leaned out the window and photographed the area quickly capturing thier faces and evidence.

    I then went next door and secured the only exit out while calling my friends and verbally shouting for assistance. They were trapped and they new it. once I had this attention I entered the house to ensure the saftey of the girls while we waited for the gardai. I put the girls in a safe room - a room hard to access from ground floor but one through which they could escape if necessary. I then waited.


    Can i just ask what you mean by sidearm???

    I could see the sh!te hittin the fan with irish gardai if i was to go to my next-door neighbours with my double barrel shotgun had they rang me for assistance during a burglary!!!

    Are you living in ireland just to clarify??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Clive


    If I go back to some birds house and get beaten up in the middle of the night once more, I'll sue! Just leave me alone, I'm only dumping rubbers in the jacks or getting butter from the fridge!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭paul moran


    If I go back to some birds house and get beaten up in the middle of the night once more, I'll sue! Just leave me alone, I'm only dumping rubbers in the jacks or getting butter from the fridge!

    Just brilliant Clive.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    Here is an interesting one..

    One day I was standing on middle abbey street. I was talking to a security guy on a shop door, and I point out a guy coming down the street. He told me this guy was a well know very proactive theif, pick pocket, and shoplifter.

    There was a crowd of country old women up for their days shopping in Arnnots , and they were standing in a group, with big hand bags on their shoulders. the thief went in behind them, there and then, he spotted a bug purse of cash in one womans bag, which was open and on here shoulder. and he was slowly plunging his hand in.

    I could not believe my eyes, right in front of me, So I took a run from about 4 metres away, brushed past the woman, grabbed the theif by the throat and slammed him full blast into the wall. I told him to get out of there fast, and I knew what he was tryinig to do.

    He started mouth off about his "good reputation, and me slandering him", so I said if he had a problem, lets call the gardai and we can explain it to them. of course he skulked away, like a rat going down a sewer.

    Now there s the thing.

    Legally, based on what Boru is saying... I think I assaulted him (even though I did not hit him), and if he really wanted he could have took a complaint against me... if he could find a guard to listen. though I think most guardai working the street, know these guys, and probably would not side with him?

    sometimes you have to be careful.

    to be honest I felt great.. I saved the old lady loose all her money, and being upset, and I gave some pain to a scum bag, whose day was probably ruined by me., and probaby he had a few bruises, and I really bounced him off the wall! good enough for him!!! LOL!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Yep mate, fraid your guilty. That said I;m sure you could make a decent case of it, e.g. you were witnessing a crime in progress, he's a known offender etc...

    Leaglly though, what you did was commit assault. You responded to a non-violent situation with what could be deemed and Un-reasonable use of force. Furthermore you grabbed him by the throat and slammed him full foce into the wall - correct? In that situation he could have been justified in responding with lethal force - you smashed in to a wall where he could have suffered a serious secondary impact injury resulting in his death, also your are constricting his airway supply and could choke him out.

    Here's how I would deal with that story if presented in a class...I'd put you in the witness stand and take you apart...for instance...

    "My client (the alleged thief) was walking by Arnotts when he noticed that this lady was about to lose her purse. He went over to let her know this and was just about to point it out when a vicious thug grabed him by hte throat and smashed him in to a wall. What's more this monster is with us now in court. "

    Did you or did you not physically grab my client and smash him into a wall and choke him?
    Did he apporach you in a threatenining manner? No
    Did he approach the ladies you were allegdely saving in a violent manner? No, certainly not.
    In fact is it not true that you wihtout any provication seriously assaulted my client? Yes

    Now is it not also true that you study and taught a system called Krav Maga? Yes.

    Now for those of you who don't know ladies and gentleman Krav Maga is a military system of close quaters combat. The purpose of which is to cripple or kill your opponetent. In fact Krav Maga is the primary fighting mehtod of Isralei troops! Now why I ask you is this man learning Military assination technqiues! This man before you is a delusional pyschotic. A paranoid violent man who sees deadly targets everywhere and went and studied a military system of violence and exexution...etc etc etc...

    You get the idea. In a court of law making you out to be a nothing more than a vicious violence obsessed wanabee vigilante. Becasue of the arts you've studied and the manner in which you engaged him a clever lawyer could take you apart. This is one of the things i teach in Crime Survival - Courtroom Survival, if you want you can see actual video footage of Jim Wagner interrogating someone in the witness stand in my ebook.

    Now I think what you did was right, I personally would like to have loped off both his hands above the wrist and sentanced him to cleaning out the latrines after the Gardai Kerbab night for a year afterwards. :rolleyes:

    Your reaction was typical of someone who knows what he'd doing in a fight and has a good sense of morals. I did something similar once and ended up arrested in front of girlfriend, frineds and teachers in college. For 6 months my life and that of my family was hell. - I was cleared of all charges simply because they were made up and exaggerated and proven false. Thats when I got smart about things...if I ever want to do something like that again I'll do it in Batman cosutme...:D

    In your sistuation above the sensible thing would have been to verbally alert people tot he situation - a strong call of "He's trying to steal your purse" would probably have him running, which you should be doing anyway towards him. If not and he then urgently and violently goes to take the purse you can restrain him. By this I mean a simple takedown and call for assistance. You don't have the right to beat him. If he resits you can respond with equal force..if he pulls a knife I'd let him go. If he insists on confronting me then I'd respond with deadly force.

    I would be able to defend myself legally quite well as there has been a progression in the Use of Force Ladder. I would also have that all important testimony that I verbally called out and stated that a crime was about to be commited expecting the guy to run away. He didn't, he attakced me as I tried ot restrain him, pulled a knife and I then had no choice but to defend my life....see how it goes...

    I drill incidents like this frequently into my students. I will have them run scenarios where htye guy runs off, or deosn;t and then pulls a knfe or its just fists, or worse his freinds come over to lend him a hand and see how the student respons and defends himself. Afterwards we interview them in a police manner, ge the to write a report etc. Then if in that scenario is necessary, say they respond the way you did, I'd put thenm in the dock and hold a mock trial.

    This is a CRUCIAL aspect of the Martial Arts - particularly in light of current day trends ot sue everybody. Sure you can defend yourslef on the street but can you surive the fight in court?


    As regards the side-arm issue, a side-arm can be many things....my personal favourite is a nice metal balpoint pen. That said as a Handgun Survival instructor well...I have lots of toys in my house....

    If you read the text I gave again, I didn't bring a gun with me at any point. There was no need, also there is the question of intent. If I bring a gun next door in suspicious crcumstances a strong case could be made that I intened to use it. I just need a nice sharp biro and I'm good. :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    A shame to see there's no criminologists one here.

    To be clear, if a dude broke into my house, I knew he was unarmed, he was alone, was not off his face, I had hand wraps on, blah blah blah, I would engage him and have great fun doing it. But there are so many unknowns, it's such a huge risk to take.

    The point being, lock yourself in a room, call the po-po and try to relax. Obvioulsy if the guy is attempting to commit a greater crime, like assault or any offence against a person, go right ahead a kick him around, the law will protect you in this instance.

    It's a real shame there's no criminologists on here.

    Peace


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    Yes..a savvy barraister would have destroyed me, if it went legal.

    He actually had his hand inside the womans bag, and was just going to rip out the purse.

    I could plead..." Your Honour, its only a mickey mouse KM I was taught" LOL ;-)

    If someone can hire the right Barrister, you will get hammered in court...or get off if you hire him. Look at the Club Annabel posh kids how they got off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    It's a real shame there's no criminologists on here.

    Peace

    since ya asked.... I got 2 semester credits in Criminology. :D

    Have you ever called the guards?

    They never come in time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Interestingly enough I confronted someone who tried to break into my home about 12 months ago. But he was gone in a flash. I ran after him screaming down our Village. But he was way too fast for me (plus I was in my bare feet). He ended up nicking an empty purse – stupid junkie...

    As Fianna said the best thing would be to find a secure location and call the cops. TBH if someone broke in to my home, I have no idea of their intentions, and therefore I'm not going to take any chances. I would make a lot of noise and hoped he's go away, if not, I would pick up an improv weapon and find him. My actual intention is not to kill the guy – it's protecting my family and home. I would tell him to “get the fook out!!”. If he did not leave, then his intentions are pretty clear – so I'd have to fight to defend my home. Still....as much as I hate these scumbags, I'm only doing enough to try to put him down while the cops arrive (don't want to be in prison for some fool). However you never know - he could be carrying a gun, knife or whatever. In a situation like that theres a hell of a lot of variables.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,655 ✭✭✭Ph3n0m


    paul moran wrote:
    Peter Sucliffe, a notorious serial killer picked his victims in similar manner - he went around the back of houses till he fgound one with an open door then killed the people inside. If it wasn;'t easy to get in he just went to the next one.


    Er what? Peter Sutcliffe cruised the streets and killed prostitutes. In fact most of his victims were found outside

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/sutcliffe/mask_1.html

    And yes I have to agree in all the times I have ever had to call the police (burglaries, assaults, etc) - they never, EVER once turned up within minutes - the shortest amount of time I had to wait was 30 minutes (and this was during the day and the fact that the police station was literally 10 minutes walk from my house)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    You're right. I was thinking of Richard Ramierz. I was watching a documentry on Sucliffe at the time - stupid brain....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Ph3nom,
    the quote says Paul Moran, I think it was Boru who said that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    Elytron wrote:
    I'm afraid it's obvious you don't know any of the facts of this case. You shouldn't make antedotal reference to things you have no understanding of to support your ideas.

    Ha ha, yeah roysch, why don't you fill us in on how these guys were found "innocent" based on the fact they didn't commit assault? I know, corrilation ain't causation... so when you die after getting a hiding of a bunch of guys it was probably that you drank too much? wore a red jacket? got the 46A there?

    I'm affraid, the legal eagles won this one, not based on "my client wasn't there, he wasn't throwing the kicks, he was at home in bed", but based on "well he may have kicked, but how can 4 or more people be responsible for murder? and sure the "so-called victim" had too much to drink". I'm affraid, no, ruger buggers like this should be in jail jail jail, if I had kicked a drunk dude in the head I'd be in jail right now.

    Peace


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭Millionaire


    Elytron wrote:
    I'm afraid it's obvious you don't know any of the facts of this case. You shouldn't make antedotal reference to things you have no understanding of to support your ideas.

    Elytron, who the hell are you to assume that I do not know facts of this case nor have any understanding of the case...

    You do not know me, you do not know what I read, you do not
    know what my educational qualifications are...

    You statement is one of the most ill informed I have ever seen
    on here.

    You are you to say "You shouldn't make antedotal reference to things you have no understanding of to support your ideas"

    I tell you this... you are throwing stones in a glass house with
    that statement. Your statement verges on ignorance.

    For your information, I followed the case in depth.
    as I was keen to see outcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    Elytron wrote:
    You probably don't follow the news much if you think conviction for murder in cases any way similar to this are common.

    And by cases anyway similar to this you mean? I'm not in the least bit concerned in making generalisation regards cases "similar" to this one. I am talking about this specific one. In any event, this just proves millionares point, that the law is an ass.

    So never mind how much following of the news I do, perhaps you should follow posts you intend to reply to with a little more care.

    Furthermore, how are you arriving at a "probability" of my news following?

    Millionare, I think there must be something catching these days because people on here have started to go a little loopy haha.

    Peace


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