Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

Jules

i have been working in practice for two years now and to say straight, why do breeders keep breeding dogs who have genetic faults, ie english bulldog, yeah i know that brachycephalic breeds will always have issues but it was just a question i wanted to ask...... why breed animals that have the potential to die at and early age or not gonna have a good quailty of life due to life long medication and tests, i know ill prolly get a public lashing for this but i have had first hand experience with this problem and its heart breaking.... and also docking tails.... one simple question, WHY????

grimloch

Because there's a market for them.

Arcadian

Perhaps that's a question better posed on a board that has good breeders on it? At least that way you may get some informed answers about health issues.

Jules

ok granted... but is it not just another act of being cruel, breeding for profit, personally i would never buy a dog, yeah ok going to a shelter or pound and payin for it there, but isnt there already enough unwanted dogs with out breeding ones that are genetically defective!!!!! come on ppl i thought we loved animals!!!!! or are they just another way to make a euro or two..... its just not right.... and i understand the health issues just want to get ordinary peoples opinion on the subject

doctor evil

Fashion, some have a use ie good sheep dog.

Jules

again point taken with the working dogs, but again any animal can be trained i guess... but again fahion should not be a reason for bad breeding in animals!!!!!!

shinners007

people breed dogs cos they want to. they may love it or simply do it as a profession to make money. some dogs tails are docked as it sometimes looks nicer. whats the big issue here, it aint gona stop just cos some people find it heart breaking now is it.

if people want to rescue a dog great its their decision the same applys for those who buy from a breeder simple.

as for dogs being a fashion of course they are this doesnt mean an owner loves the dog any less.

allnight_2002

jules80 wrote:

again point taken with the working dogs, but again any animal can be trained i guess... but again fashion should not be a reason for bad breeding in animals!!!!!!

NO not very dog is suitable for certain jobs. And all the training in the world will not make up for natural instinct. Which is breed in to certain breeds over years.
Tails are docked on allot of working dogs epically hunting dogs. If they had long tails they would get caught up in thorns and twigs going in to tick cover.

padi89

allnight_2002 wrote:

Tails are docked on allot of working dogs epically hunting dogs. If they had long tails they would get caught up in thorns and twigs going in to tick cover.

Really? I honestly never knew that.I would have assumed that their ears are far more likely to get caught up in thorns and twigs going through thick cover as the head is used to push through.I would assume that once they push their heads through it leaves a gap for their body and especially the tail to follow.Hounds for example have their tails and my mates spaniels(for hunting).
Dont take that the wrong way i just honestly didnt know that.

EGAR

The practise of tail docking originates in the middle ages. It has nothing to do with injuries to the tail but was meant to distinguish a peasant's dog from a dog owned by the gentry. Tail docking deprives a dog of a bodypart which is vital in canine communication for example. Most European countries have outlawed the practise of tail docking as cruel and barbaric. Dogs with intact tails have hunted for centuries without any injuries to their tails .

Sarah

eiretamicha

EGAR wrote:

The practise of tail docking originates in the middle ages. It has nothing to do with injuries to the tail but was meant to distinguish a peasant's dog from a dog owned by the gentry. Tail docking deprives a dog of a bodypart which is vital in canine communication for example. Most European countries have outlawed the practise of tail docking as cruel and barbaric. Dogs with intact tails have hunted for centuries without any injuries to their tails .

Sarah

I agree with this 100%.

As for the breeding? I'm with you, Jules. My puppy, whom I adopted from a lady that couldn't sell him, is a thoroughbred Lhasa Apso. Complete with infected ears from the wild hairgrowth, a potential collapsing trachea, and the worst one...kidney disease. He is only 1 year old. Why this woman bred her two Lhasas is beyond me, but I can only assume she did it out of ignorance. It was her first litter.

But the experienced breeders? We can't say, "They don't know better" because they do. They do it because these dogs, with their genetic defects, are in demand and are fashionable. Supply and demand...even pets have somehow managed to work their way into the world of capitalism.

doctor_evil also has a point, however, in that working dogs are sometimes needed. I couldn't really see a little Shih Tzu mix herding a flock of sheep. But, there are so many unwanted mixed breeds out there now, and many are of shepherd/sheep dog stock. All ya gotta do is check the paper or call the pound. I, for one, could never justify buying a dog, even a working one, when there are so many looking for a home right now.

Great topic, btw.

peasant

While a good portion of the blame for ever sicker and unfit-for-life dogs has to be laid at the breeders doors, it is just basic "market forces" at work.

People want to buy, other people want to make money.

That coupled with the total disrespect for the rights and the wellbeing of a fellow creature has brought us where we are today.

Ever since the industrial revolution, when people left the land in droves, dogs have become pretty much pointless as working dogs and drifted towards status symbols and fashion accessories.

Most breeds we know today were only defined then (or later) out of "pretty" looking crosses of some working strain or another. Breeding standards are all about looks and appearance (size, colour, shape) and have blatant disregard for the health of the dog.
By limiting the appearance of a certain breed to certain parameters only, a huge amount of dogs was excluded from the genepool for that breed. Inbreeding from an ever decreasing genepool became the standard. Then followed the over-emphazising of certain aspects (ever shorter noses, bigger eyes, miniaturism, gigantism, etc). The end result is, that there are very few breeds left out there that could truly be regarded as healthy, natural and sound.

Unfortunately ...as most mixes are mixes of "pedigree" dogs to some degree, even getting a "mongrel" doesn't automatically guarantee health anymore.

The basic problem is, that with the short breeding cycles of dogs and their ability to mate with each other across all sizes and shapes, it is so easy for man to play GOD and craete a "new" animal that satisfies the current fashion and trends.

And that's exactly what we have done ...catered to our every whim.

Even today, in our so called "enlightened" age this is still going on ...if anything it is getting worse. The internet is the perfect marketing tool, cinema and television creates ever new doggy images in our heads (the Andrex puppy anyone? ...even Top Gear now has a dog on the show ...why?) and the icons of our time (pop stars, models, etc) are rarely seen without a dog. Just look at the explosion of new "breeds" like the multitude of -oodles and -poos. Everybody with a backyard is a "breeder" these days, trowing a new breed per week on the market.

Unless the "consumer" simply stops buying these "creations", it will continue forever.

Well, not exactly forever ...in the not too distant future we will have managed to breed all dogs to death.

Literally.

peasant

Another problem is people's obsession with brands and image.

It simply isn't good enough to just go and get "a dog". It has to be a "boxer" or "Shi-Tzu" or whatever. Even when it is a mix, it at least has to be a mix of some breed with another ...simply "dog" is by no means good enough for most people.

Breeders clubs and associations very cleverly tend to that brand consciousness by promoting theit "brand" with breed descriptions that are at best wishful thinking, but in most cases just blatant lies.

Depending on the "target group" that a certain breed is aimed for, the breed descriptions contain all sorts of advertising bumpf and broad, sweeping generalisations, creating the impression that if you only buy a X-breed, it will practically raise itself into just the perfect dog for you and your requirements.

A multitude of websites and "buying guides" cater to that nonsense, offering breed comparisons and so called buying advice. By ticking a few boxes, you automatically end up with a choice of a few breeds and links to websites of their breeders.

Only problem is ...you're buying a living being ...not a car or a handbag.

But very few buyers seem to realise that.

eiretamicha

peasant, very well said on all accounts.

EGAR

Here's a brilliant article re breeding and the genetic cul-de-sac that so many breeders wont see or ignore. It's long but well worth reading.

http://siriusdog.com/articles/dog-genetic-mutations-genome.htm

Sarah

Jules

great to see there are some like minded ppl out there, and some have a bit of compassion and i know the mongrel breed doesnt mean a healthy dog, but too m uch breeding will evenutally lead to inbreeding, and well we all know thats not good, really glad started this topic, hopefully it will open up some minds

Dyr

One thing to throw out there is to take a look at the people who founded the concept of purebreed's and kennel club's. Mostly the upper classes and aristocracy who back then were obsessed with the idea of breeding and lineage in their own live's. People who actually used working dog's probably couldnt have cared less once a dog could do the job.

I still have no problem with people wanting to own a "breed" eg a rottie or something, it's just that the popularity of some breeds mean's the breeders are drawing a lot of water from a very limited genetic well.

Jules

well pets are still seen as a status symbol, paris dumb bint hilton dress her dog up in cloths, its a dog let it be a dog and if you want to dress something up go and have a baby or something..... dogs are ment to be running around happy waggin their non docked tails showing everyone how happy they are, and ppl who say that tail docking is for working dogs, bull!!!!! how many jrt or yorkies do you see working, i have met prolly two in my life time, they dont need their tails taken away, come on ppl the way they do it!!!!! tie rubber bands around them till they drop off, og yeah thats gotta be a walk in the park!!!!!1

and i have nothing against people owning purebreed dogs if that is what floats your boat whatever but the practice of not looking into the dogs medical back ground or even making sure their is no in breeding, i have met several ppl who have let their dogs have pups when there are obvious medical issues.....

yeah know im ranting but its something i feel quite strongly about, there are hundreds of dogs being killed every week, perfectly good sweet dogs, that just cuz there isnt IKC reg after their names are not good enough.... and another thing most purebreed dogs can be nastly little things with attitude problems, yeah im gonna get a lashing sayin all dogs are nasty, i can see the point but if you look at it properly the majority of dogs that bite and turn on their owners are purebreeds.....

ok rant over im gonna read my ARAN newsletter

eiretamicha

jules80 wrote:

they dont need their tails taken away, come on ppl the way they do it!!!!! tie rubber bands around them till they drop off, og yeah thats gotta be a walk in the park!!!!!1

It's even worse over here. So many times I had to assist these types of "surgery" when I was a veterinary technician, and I can't tell you how many times the tears would just flow down my cheeks while I was thinking, "This is just wrong"... Here, the puppy is a couple days old when it's brought in for the tail docking. The vet tech holds the puppy, the vet grabs a pair of sterilized nail clippers, and cuts the tail off. Snap. Just like that. The puppy screams and wriggles, and I had to keep holding it still so the vet could then put one suture through the tip of the tail.

It's done without any anesthesia, and it's one of the cruelest things anyone could ever get done to their puppies. And it's one of the many reasons I left the veterinary field.

Jules

man there are some sick sick ppl in this world

EGAR

Man in Black: all of a sudden I was inundated with queries about pugs
The Osbournes: lots of emails from people who wanted to *rescue* an English Bulldog from me and am still getting them
101 Dalamations 2: same story as above

The list is endless. Also, I find that alot of people are simply ignorant of the whole matter, haven't a clue what ED, HD, OCD mean for the dog and for them.

Prime example of the film industry imposing our tastes of what's IN: Shrek.

Yes, Shrek! Before that darn movie nobody wanted donkeys, not many bred them. All of a sudden the demand was MASSIVE and prices went sky high. Now the country is full of donekys and nobody is paying those prices anymore. Soon we'll have more rescue donkeys and donkeys being shipped to France. I can see it coming.

shinners007

jules having IKC reg after the name of a dog doesnt mean its more special than another it simply means that the owner can check the sir and dam bloodlines etc.. hence preventing inbreeding occuring?? is this not a good thing??

now as for cross breeds etc.. and breeders who have puppy mills i think this is a disgrace. i recently went to a so called reputable breeder and saw loads of cross breeds labs springer/cocker etc.. i asked waht the deal was he replyed " these things happen" a breeder will export em as there is a demand for em abroad. now to me thing happen isnt good enough if one wishes to be a breeder breed within ones means. why cant people stick to breeding one type rather than gettin greedy and then not being able to control the situation. its sickening.

i breed boxers. ok i own two female and one male. thats my limit, they reside on nearly half an acre of land, snowy, gypsy and max love space plus dogs need freedom. now my dogs are show dogs and have champion bloodlines and are treated as family. there indoors playing with kids etc, on a daily basis.
i go mad when all breeders are painted with the one brush. i live for boxers and dog shows and put a lot of time love and yes money into ensuring they want for nothing. i always welcome people to view them at any time.

now sorry for blabbling but i had to get that in. i no theres money to be made in breeding i could if i wanted breed other types of dogs but i personally wouldnt, boxers are my preference and the only breed i no best so i wouldnt bother. its simple if people stopped seeking xbreeds etc.. the demand would reduce however i cant see this happening myself.

to the issue of docking tails, i dont hear anyone here saying casterating a bull is wrong? why so cos its common. people have preferences some like long tails others like short, wrong or right it'll always be an argument for those involved. my opinion is if you like long tails dont dock it if one likes a docked tail have it docked. my boxers hav docked tails as they wouldnt win a show with a long tail. its taht true. fashion is what caues it, and breeders arent always to blame they simply provide for a DEMAND that exists while making a PROFIT out of it.

in fact i saw a boxer only once with a long tail and it didnt look horrible or gorgeous either, it was hard to say with myself being so used to docked tails.

anyhow my point is some breeders are excellant others run puppy mills, some people rescue puppys from shelters, some people hate dogs... this thread comes down to opinion and preference and people could argue forever about it without trying to do anything about it. that place i went to i rang the ISPCA as the dogs where all undernourished and badly treated.

animals lovers should act on there words more rather than just moaning about the wrongs and rights theres worse things than docking dogs tailing happening to dogs and other animals all across ireland everyday day of the week.

tj-music.com

grimloch wrote:

Because there's a market for them.

That´s true unfortunately. Work in an animal clinic myself ( as a volunteer that is) and study a lot of animal related stuff and sometimes it drives me crazy to see those poor dogs with really bad conditions :mad:

peasant

jules having IKC reg after the name of a dog doesnt mean its more special than another it simply means that the owner can check the sir and dam bloodlines etc.. hence preventing inbreeding occuring?? is this not a good thing??

The owner *could* check ...most don't bother because they think the paperwork actually means anything. How far back does it go? Two or three generations, isn't it?

to the issue of docking tails, i dont hear anyone here saying casterating a bull is wrong? why so cos its common. people have preferences some like long tails others like short, wrong or right it'll always be an argument for those involved. my opinion is if you like long tails dont dock it if one likes a docked tail have it docked. my boxers hav docked tails as they wouldnt win a show with a long tail. its taht true. fashion is what caues it, and breeders arent always to blame they simply provide for a DEMAND that exists while making a PROFIT out of it.

Now that is a silly argument.
How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?

No?

There you go ...

But you happily do it to your:

my dogs are show dogs and have champion bloodlines and are treated as family.

animals lovers should act on there words more rather than just moaning about the wrongs and rights theres worse things than docking dogs tailing happening to dogs and other animals all across ireland everyday day of the week

Well ...in that case I would strongly suggest that YOU start by not docking your "families" tails and not cropping their ears.

Howsthat for a suggestion ?

As a breeder nobody expects you to take the whole weight of animal cruelty onto your own shoulders ...but as a self professed "animal lover" you really should start in your own back yard, literally.

You say it's up to the individual choice of the buyers. Well no ...it isn't really. Just don't give them the choice. Sell them uncrippled animals only. The right kind of buyer will buy anyway ...or just because your dogs are undocked/uncropped.

But then again ...that would exclude you from champion shows and you wouldn't get the "all important" paperwork, thus reducing the "market value" of your wares.

So please forgive for not taking you seriously when you say:

i live for boxers and ... put a lot of time love and yes money into ensuring they want for nothing

This:

i live for boxers and dog shows

sounds much more like the truth

EGAR

Most IKC reg'd dogs are line bred and line breeding means INBREEDING .

So much for that.

And when you say they want for nothing then you might be forgetting their tails .

Sarah

EGAR

Oh and while we are on the subject of Boxers, here's a list of diseases (some of them genetic) to which the Boxer is prone to:

Aortic stenosis/subaortic stenosis (AS/SAS)
Boxer cardiomyopathy
Hip dysplasia
Hypothyroidism
Corneal dystrophy
Demodectic mange
Cancer (skin, bowel, testicular, lungs and brain)
Bloat
Allergies
Cryptorchism
Deafness (white boxers mainly)

ALOT, if you ask me .

Sarah

Li'l Irish

There are reasons a person could want a specific breed beyond working dogs. Maybe you're allergic to pet dander so you'd want a hair breed, like Bichon Frises or poodles, not a bichonxjack russell *we think* that might or might not shed. Size also features into it. If you live in an apartment and need a small dog, you should have a pretty good idea of how big it's going to get.

I had the same situation myself with a rabbit recently: I needed a dwarf bunny that would fit into a cage made for rats, so I contacted a hotot breeder and got my Percy:


I got so much flak from people for *buying* a rabbit instead of adopting one. I looked for suitable bunnies through all the shelters and didn't find one.

I won't go into the tail or ear docking. Personally I think natural ears on a Boxer or Great Dane look ten times better, but it comes down to your personal preference.

Now that is a silly argument.
How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?

No?

There you go ...

No, we only pierce thier ears, force them into high heeled shoes that effect thier skeletal and muscular development, and turn them loose with the knowledge that they'll never be skinny or pretty enough no matter how hard they try.

And that's just in the 'civilized' world. In parts of Africa and Asia, women would happily chop off *all* thier toes if that's all they had to lose.

Danes

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name. I've kept this breed for 15 years and while each one is different they do share some common traits which appeal to me. I'm tired of the high moral ground brigade who carry on as if owning a purebred dog is something shameful. Rather than bleat about puppy farming and BYBs, check out ANVIL on www.irishanimals.ie and lend your support where it really counts.

peasant

Now, how did a thread about pedigree dogs end up with a piccie of a bunny wabbit and women's right's issues in Africa ??


But more importantly:

I needed a dwarf bunny that would fit into a cage made for rats

What ??

Slight mixup in the priorities there, methinks

Danes wrote:

owning a purebred dog is something shameful

No it isn't. Provided that dog was bred with ITS health in mind not only the profit of the breeder.

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name.

You make that sound as if you were proud of being able to cope with it. (??)

Are you not annoyed that your favourite breed has come into such a desperate state?

shinners007

look peasant i said it all comes down to preference, my puppys are sold with undocked tails the owner can dock them if they wish so THE CHOICE IS THERE YA. and for the record my dogs ears arent croped so dont accuse me of somthing i dont do ok

as for common disease associated with boxers, well im well aware of them however that doesnt mean stop breeding a beautiful dog theres a risk of disease with very dog, so get it right. my dogs get regular check ups and wont be ever tossed aside if they become ill/cannot breed.

as for IKC you can trace back SIX generations so get it right. anyone sensible enogh to breed WILL check the bloodlines as inbreeding increases the risk of illness.

plus pesant how dare you twist my quotes, becuse i like boxers tails short does not make me any less of any animal lover ok. so please dont insult me.

next thing youll do is tell people rescue animals from shelters but not ones with docked tails is it. get real, your little rant is based on opinion the owner will decide the way they want there dogs tails and you or i or anyone else isnt going to change it. im not saying its right im simply saying certain factors cause this to happen fashion etc..

anyhow i think the problem of inbreeding is far more serious than tail docking, more mongrels are tossed aside than docked tailed dogs.. causing so many dogs to become unwanted.

just cause my preference on a boxer is short tailed this doesnt give you the right to slate the care i rovide for my animals when you yourself no nothing about boxers, shows or breeding.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

shinners007

maybe peasant cant afford a PB dog and is just jealous of those who do. by the way his talking everyone should own mongrels, not buy IKC and run away if they see a dog with a docked tail.

some people take pride in their animals and alot of hard work goes into PB breeding this shouldnt be forgotten just becaus some breeders get greedy and create a puppy mill/cross breeds. peasant you should be a bit more open minded IKC is brillant as it allows one to ensure no inbreeding will occur, rather than having people breeding cross breeds/inbreeds. IKC allows the information to be there its up to a decent person to utilize this. so give it the credit it deserves and pure PB dogs also.

peasant

Och ...shinners 007 ...

So you like docked tails, yet you sell your pups with complete tails. On your own dogs you cut it off eventually ...on your pups you leave it up to the buyer ...

Is or isn't it illegal now, to dock tails? It certainly is illegal in most countries on the continent. Either way you seem to be hedging your bets there ...


I will not go into the inner workings of the Irish Kennel Club, as I'm not a breeder and not familiar with the IKC's rules and regulations. For all I know they may actually be a wonderful organistion with only the dog's best interest at heart.
Still I have seen many a sick PB with IKC papers.

As we're getting personal:
peasant currently shares his life with the following dogs:

1 mix (2x PB afaik) from a so called "breeder", left at a shelter at 18 months of age after owners got divorced.

1 mix of unknown parentage, thrown over somebodies fence at the tender age of about 12 weeks, collected by peasant (through a rescue organistion)about 6 weeks later and loved dearly even though some cruel bastard cut its tail off

1 purebred dog, paid for and collected personally by peasant and wife from the neighbouring island at considerate expense.

Seenashow I have one of everything, I think there is no need for jealousy

you yourself no nothing about boxers, shows or breeding

boxers = dog = like any other dog, just looks like a boxer

dog shows = sickening display of human vanity and competetivness = major bitching session about judges and their favourites, other breeders and their "products" behind their backs = a massive ordeal for the shown dogs = no real interst in dogs (i. e. dogs in general, "other" dogs), just medals and ribbons = laughable really, if it wasn't so sad ...and yes, I've been to more than I'd care to admit.

Breeding = I know for sure that I don't know nearly enough about genetics to even dare try breeding myself ...just like 90% of all breeders in the world, only it hasn't kept them from "trying"

and finally:

plus pesant how dare you twist my quotes, becuse i like boxers tails short does not make me any less of any animal lover ok. so please dont insult me

I didn't twist anything ...just highlighted some contradictions.

But to the core of your argument:

Yes my dear, "liking" a dogs tail to be mutilated DOES make you less of an animal lover. Because you are ranking your personal taste higher than an animals right to an unmutilated body. Because you simply cut of a bodypart of a fellow creature just because it pleases you visually. The fact that the tail plays a vital part in inter-doggy communications as well as for poise and balance of the animal when maneuvering and runnning never even crosses your mind. You just cut it off because you LIKE it !! You turn a fellow being into a cripple for life, because you prefer it that way.

That not only makes you definetly NOT an animal lover, it clearly shows you for the cruel, selfish, impassionate and unempathetic person that you are. That you can do it to animals that you bred and reared from birth and consider "family" only makes it so much worse.

And that is no insult ...that's just sad fact.

shinners007

see you yourself bought from a breeder talk about contradication.

docking tails isnt going to stop cos u want it to, as i said previuosly my boxers tails were docked when i bought em. i dont dock my puppys tail so aint the cruel person u describe.

again i wont lower my standard and argue at the end of the day it comes down to preference...


leave ya 2 it peasant since ur such a notitall try stick around and become a mod it would suit you.....

peasant

shinners007 wrote:

again i wont lower my standard and argue at the end of the day it comes down to preference...

No, no and no again ...it does bloody well NOT come down to preference.

Your so called "preference" has given us breeds with such deformed noses that they can't breathe any more, it has given us miniaturisation to such a degree that skull bones won't grow together any more, it has given us such large eyes, that they are constantly infected, long backs that have damaged disks, short legs that are permanently out of joint, massive growth that causes constant joint and bone problems and pain, inbreeding that spreads genetic disease and mass production that gives us sick, agressive, substandard dogs.

Preference is wrong!

Respect, knowledge and restraint are what's needed.

Respect for a fellow creature, its rights, its needs, its capabilities, its shortcomings.

Knowlegde how to breed, raise and care for these fellow creatures so that you will cause them no harm. Knowledge that these creatures are our reponsibility.

And restraint from "wanting" regardless of the consequences or circumstances. Wanting to own, wanting to multiply and most of all wanting to "create".




And as an explanation to everybody else ... only after I bought from a breeder where my eyes opened to what goes on. I also believed in papers and breed descriptions ...not any more.

But that isnt the dog's fault ...hence the dog stays and I learn.

EGAR

Danes wrote:

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name. I've kept this breed for 15 years and while each one is different they do share some common traits which appeal to me. I'm tired of the high moral ground brigade who carry on as if owning a purebred dog is something shameful. Rather than bleat about puppy farming and BYBs, check out ANVIL on www.irishanimals.ie and lend your support where it really counts.

Well, thanks for the advice but maybe you should look at my website and see what I do before you get off on one re support where it really counts and tell me what to do .

I have had and still have plenty of PB dogs in rescue, I even phone the breeders on the off chance that they mght be interested in what became of their *babies*. All (but one old lady from NI) had naught to say, no back up plan - NOTHING! These dogs aren't just PB, they have papers as well .

Sarah

Li'l Irish

What ??

Slight mixup in the priorities there, methinks

Not when I spent three hundred dollars on a cage as large as I am. A full sized rabbit could easily fit into the cage, but I didn't want it to have to squeeze to get from floor to floor.

Jules

Hey guys just back from a stint in the country and nice to see that a couple of people have decided to use their brains.... where do I start

tail docking, has to be without a shadow of a doubt the most cruel and unnecessary thing a dog has to go through, and as for comparing it to castration, go and educate yourself... you said you sell both your puppies with docked and undocked tails, then you say I don’t dock my puppies tails, fair enough you cannot be accounted for your own dogs as they were bought in that god awful condition... but a tail is use to convey emotions and also for balance, so lets cut off your lips and prevent you from smiling or frowning and see how much you like it!!!!!!! It is a disgusting and barbaric practice that should be completely banned.....

Next breeders

doesn’t matter if you are breeding in a mill or in the best set up, you are still breeding from dogs that have genetic defects, and there is no way of saying that this is not true!!!!!!!!! And if you think about it... all together now... logically, if you breed two dogs with the same genetic defect will the said defect not get worse, and I’m sorry but yeah I know you can go back generations and generations, but records can be changed and the only way they can be shown to be true is DNA testing and I’m sorry but I don’t think that is widely available, so please do not say you know for a fact that your dogs are not inbred!!!!!!!!

and I am not condemning people for owning PB dogs but for the love of god isn’t there enough animals out there looking for homes without breeders good or bad bringing more into this world, for nothing other than profit!!!!! Wake up and smell the java guys we are breeding the most adorable animals on the plant into a defective dying unhappy sick... god I know that sounds stupid but we are indirectly cutting our noses off to spite our faces.....

Again thanks to egar and peasant for keeping the side up!!!!!!

shinners007

oh ya jules ur advice is breeders (the decent good ones) dont bother breeding dogs within a healthy environment as there is enough of em, just let every stray breed away creating more mongrels, how many dogs do u see running loose around towns and citys? these create more unwanted dogs than breeders do. as for genetic problems my dogs are healthy and have no illness( 4 annual chek ups to the vet minimum) so why is it wrong to breed them. imagine the cross breeders/strays that are breeding there is no way ther history can be traced surely this is a larger problem than responsible breeders breeding.

i agree docking tails is cruel, i dont no why peasant is slating me, i never docked a dogs tails howver just becase my boxers tails were docked when i bought em is he trying to say i shoulnt have bought em? sorry but a docked tail wasnt goin to get me not to buy them thats cruel also.

fair enough tails shoulnt be docked but lets be honest they are so what do ye want to do tell everyone not to buy/rescue dogs with docked tails at present. now if it were banned then this wont be a problem however since it isnt this argument does come down to preference regardless to it being morally wrong. people just do what they like to dogs when they are an owner and thats a fact for you peasant.

and as i said it still comes down to preference even if it is wrong, people will do what they like peasant this is my argument. since the ban doesnt exist this will continue am i right? im basing my argument on the present facts? you are focusing on the animal solely which is genuinely nice, but lets me honest who will decide the dog/owner? the owner of course thats the way it is. that is all im trying to say.

peasant

shinners

As to docking ...here's a simple solution and one first step into the right direction:

On the sale of one of your pups you simply and clearly state in the contract that the dog is only sold on the basis that it will not be docked. Any docking at a later stage will null and void the sale and revert the dog back into your property.

And then you check up every so often.

And if you really cared, then you would try and convince your fellow breedes in the IKC to do the same ...in other words the IKC would just impose a ban on docking all by itself.

That's what a responsible breeder would do.

By just washing your hands of it once the pup is sold your making it too easy for yourself.

Don't leave it up to the great unwashed masses to decide over the fate of your dogs. Most of them are pig ignorant when it comes to dogs. You as a breeder have a responsibility to lead and educate ...at least do it for your own pups if you value them as much as you try to make us believe.

Jules

shinners

there is absolutely no point in talking to you as you cannot see past your own nose, im a complete advocate of neutering and spaying, and if pet owners where more responsible and did this and didnt let their dogs roam about freely.. well then..... and you cannot sit there and say you dogs have no illness, they have defects at the genetic level that you cannot see, and which will arise as they get older, also look at their faces, and you will see the biggest one of all!!!!!!

as long as there are ppl out there who cannot accept the facts will have doomed mans best friend

Vegeta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_%28animals%29

look for the legal status of docking in a lot of countries.

Does anyone here even own a working dog???

Have you seen first hand how a dogs tail becomes absolutely useless to him as a form of communication, poise or balance due to damage from beating in an out of vegetation while hunting.

If you honestly think that docking a tail is worse than saving them from a lifetime of pain and discomfort fair enough.

We refused to dock our fisrt pair of hunting dogs (springers) only to have to do it years later anyway due to damage and scar tissue. One dog at 2 and a half years the other dog 3 years old.

Ever since we have docked our hunting dogs tails.

I agree there is no point in doing it to a non working dog

peasant

If you honestly think that docking a tail is worse than saving them from a lifetime of pain and discomfort fair enough

Always the same argument ...dog might get hurt, so lets cripple it preventatively.

If it does get hurt and you have to (partially) amputate the tail ...so be it. But don't do it beforehand.


To illustrate how stupid your argument is:

"So, Mr/Mrs Vegeta ...I see you have applied for a job in our sawmills. To prevent you from possibly experiencing some pain caused by work accidents, I' m sure you don't mind if we cut off three fingers on each hand as a preventative measure, do you?"

Vegeta

Your so off the point its not even funny.

The dogs suffered for 2 and a half and 3 years

Every time we went hunting i'd end up unknotting their tails and wiping them down with disinfectant as they would be cut and the slight gashes in the tail needed cleaning.

Eventually about 2 years of damage rendered the tails useless. it wasn't a one off accident as your little analogy states. It was constant and repeated damage, I would never put another dog through it.

If its such a crap arguement whay do many countries allow it while banning it for cosmetic purposes.

Do you have a hunting dog? have you ever brought a dog out working?

peasant

One might also argue that you could simply stop hunting with dogs, especially as hunting in this day and age is nothing more than a superflous "sport".

But that is a separate debate.

Danes

Its interesting to hear what peasant says about buying from a breeder and then having his eyes opened - a similar thing happened to me. Its absolutely true that there are breeders who have no scruples when it comes to the welfare of their animals and there are those who think that breeding is just a matter of finding a bitch and dog or the same breed - much like a large portion of the buying public. So, it seems to me that rather than being a pedigree v cross breed issue, its an issue of how to educate the general public in how to spot inferior breeders and NOT to buy from them. The only way to stop the supply of poorly bred dogs is to stop the demand.

Pounds and rescues are overflowing with cross breeds and so it will be unless everyone decides to spay and neuter their pet dogs. Badly bred pedigrees will always exist unless buyers demand a far higher standard from breeders.

I have a beautifully bred pedigree, a very badly bred pedigree, a deliberate cross breed and an accidental cross breed in my family and cant say that I value one more highly than the rest.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

One might also argue that you could simply stop hunting with dogs, especially as hunting in this day and age is nothing more than a superflous "sport".

But that is a separate debate.

One might argue to stop breeding dogs!

peasant

One might argue to stop breeding dogs!

One might indeed ...

And when one looks at the sick and disfigured creatures that so called "breeders" are churning out, that option is looking better every minute.

But isn't that what this thread is all about?

EGAR

The Wikipedia list is out of date . Scotland for example has banned docking for both hunting and *normal* dogs. It wont be long before the rest of the UK will follow and hopefully Ireland is next .

As to the hunting dog debatte re tail injuries, I have heard it all, being a member of the anti docking alliance for years. I know many undocked working/hunting dogs and those have never had a tail injuries. It's a ridiculious argument which ALWAYS comes from hunters . A bit more doggy hygiene such as cleaning tails of debris after a walk or a hunt, my advise .

Sarah

peasant

Danes wrote:

So, it seems to me that rather than being a pedigree v cross breed issue, its an issue of how to educate the general public in how to spot inferior breeders and NOT to buy from them. The only way to stop the supply of poorly bred dogs is to stop the demand.

Yes ...in an ideal world educated buyers would simply refuse to spend good money on poorly bred animals, instead mop up all the unwanted dogs out there and force breeders into re-thinking.

Problem is ...a lot of people know VERY little about dogs. And those that try to get information usually only get it from questionable sources, i.e. breeders websites, kennell clubs etc.

Independant, unbiased, factual information is very hard to come by

Vegeta

EGAR wrote:

The Wikipedia list is out of date . Scotland for example has banned docking for both hunting and *normal* dogs. It wont be long before the rest of the UK will follow and hopefully Ireland is next .

As to the hunting dog debatte re tail injuries, I have heard it all, being a member of the anti docking alliance for years. I know many undocked working/hunting dogs and those have never had a tail injuries. It's a ridiculious argument which ALWAYS comes from hunters . A bit more doggy hygiene such as cleaning tails of debris after a walk or a hunt, my advise .

Sarah

Sarah I can assure you after spending hours and hours training a dog to working standards you grow to love and value a dog as a family member, of course you already know this. Our dogs were extremely hard workers (which is why the tail damage occured) and were cleaned after every outing yet they still had the misfortune of having their tails operated on.

You say the arguement always comes from hunters, well maybe they don't want to see dogs suffer without reason. Maybe they have experienced something you haven't.

I agree some working breeds are more prone to damage than others. For example pointers and setters don't generally beat cover like a spaniel or a retreiving breed.

Again the only reason I support docking in working breeds is first hand experience. Can you say the same? Have you hunted with the same dog for 4-5 years.

EGAR

I don't hunt with dogs as I consider this a bloodsport and quite perverse to use a domesticated animal to kill/hunt down a wild one.

But I live in rural Ireland and before that near Billings, Montana, so I have lots of contact with hunters and their dogs, many of them undocked. My OH's brother goes hunting with undocked dogs (Spaniels, Pointer and Terrier), he's never had a problem tailwise and he hunts for nearly 40 years. He insists that his dogs are undocked, he wont even look a docked hunting dog puppy. So there you go .

Sarah