[article]Revenue monitoring VRT online checks

ballooba

Revenue monitoring VRT online checks

Importers who use the Revenue Commissioners VRT calculation website are being monitored to identify popular imports


Private car importers could be costing themselves and other buyers hundreds of euro in Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) by over-zealous checks on the Revenue Commissioners VRT calculation website. Paddy Comyn reports.

Revenue officials have confirmed they are monitoring both the queries about specific models of cars on the VRT online calculator and the actual traffic of imports to this country.

Officials are then pinpointing cars for "reclassification" as a "collectable" car. VRT is applied to imported cars as a percentage of the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP), which is calculated by the Revenue Commissioners.

One example of such a change is the much sought-after 1980s version of the BMW 3-Series. Known in BMW circles by its code E30, it was produced between 1984 and 1991, with the Cabriolet and Touring models continuing even later than that.

The E30 has always had a loyal following and interest in the car has increased dramatically of late, as it has been identified as a future classic and with many well-maintained examples residing in Britain, personal imports of the car have increased greatly and this, it seems, has attracted the attention of the VRT officers.

One recent buyer , told The Irish Times of his experience with importing an E30 Convertible.

"In November of 2005 I priced a car on the VRT website and the model I was looking at had a VRT price of about €400-odd on it. Having settled on a car in February of this year I returned to the website to notice that the model I had previously looked at was no longer available on the drop-down menu. I phoned my local VRT office to check if there had been a database error, but was told that this particular car had been 'reclassified' and they would need to check with head office to get a price.


"The new price I was given was €1,360, some three times what I had been quoted online initially."

According to a spokesman for the Revenue, the car in question - the E30 Convertible - had been removed from the website because the open market selling price of the vehicle first published on the site was "far too low".

He confirmed the VRT website is monitored to gauge particular interest in specific models.

© The Irish Times

Mickk

Makes your blood boil doesn't it, any way they can to rob more money of the public.

prospect

Read it earlier, and I have to wonder if the people in their motoring office read boards, as this topic was only covered recently. This would be a good source for journalists to find out what topical issue is 'irking' us motorists at any given time.

mike65

It would'nt suprise me to be honest, maybe we will need a secret handshake and private sub forums for sensitive material?

Mike.

Stephen

Perhaps we should all just hammer the VRT calculator with requests for sh*te cars? I'm sure somebody clever could put together a script that keeps them busy!

Henry Ford III

Stephen wrote:

Perhaps we should all just hammer the VRT calculator with requests for sh*te cars? I'm sure somebody clever could put together a script that keeps them busy!

Good idea.

MercMad

Its typical, but rather obvious that they will try to close up whatever "holes" they can. They are there to make money so if folk are bringing in cars that will yeild a nice profit....................they want some !

Savman

Stephen wrote:

Perhaps we should all just hammer the VRT calculator with requests for sh*te cars? I'm sure somebody clever could put together a script that keeps them busy!

100,000 Fiat Punto imports is bound to arouse some suspicion

mike65

Today FM are talking about this right now 100-102 Fm

Mike.

Tipsy Mac

I am sick to death of VRT, it's costing lives in that people are taking to the roads in sub standard cars. At the next referendum of any EU legislation we should all get together with some kind of campaign to highlight to those in Europe why we have to pay import tax on goods across the EU. There are something like 1.5 million drivers in the country, each one of them has a vote, it's a fairly powerful lobby group if we could just all get together. The main problem is the average driver doesn't know about it, a nice back window sticker campaign would alert alot of people.

Anan1

Tipsy Mac wrote:

I am sick to death of VRT, it's costing lives in that people are taking to the roads in sub standard cars. At the next referendum of any EU legislation we should all get together with some kind of campaign to highlight to those in Europe why we have to pay import tax on goods across the EU. There are something like 1.5 million drivers in the country, each one of them has a vote, it's a fairly powerful lobby group if we could just all get together. The main problem is the average driver doesn't know about it, a nice back window sticker campaign would alert alot of people.

I'm a driver and I'm in favour of VRT. I've had this discussion with friends & family, and many of them are too. By all means try, but I'm not sure that there would be many votes in abolishing VRT.

Abelloid

Anan1 wrote:

I'm a driver and I'm in favour of VRT. I've had this discussion with friends & family, and many of them are too. By all means try, but I'm not sure that there would be many votes in abolishing VRT.

Why are you in favour of VRT?

Anan1

JustinOval wrote:

Why are you in favour of VRT?

There was a big discussion about this a few months ago, in which I explained why I favoured VRT. I've just tried to find it, but the search function doesn't seem to be working for me. Have a look at my past posts under VRT if it works for you, with the best will in the world I couldn't be arsed going through the whole thing again.;)

parsi

Tipsy Mac wrote:

I am sick to death of VRT, it's costing lives in that people are taking to the roads in sub standard cars.

How ? Below what standard ?

There isn't VRT on tyres yet folks drive on what are virtually slicks.

Seatbelts are in all cars but yet folks still drive without them.

Child seats are very reasonable but yet there are loads of cars where the children have no restraints.

Even with VRT people can afford to be drink driving.

Maybe its the high rate of VRT that prevents people buying cheap headsets so that they don't have to hold their phones whilst driving.

Fight VRT on reasonable grounds not fanciful emotional grounds. If VRT is so high then why are car sales at such a high level ? It's not as if cars are wearing out after two years or rusting to bits like the old days.

If VRT goes what will replace it ? Do you think the Government can afford to just ditch one particular revenue stream ?

Tipsy Mac

parsi wrote:

How ? Below what standard ?
Fight VRT on reasonable grounds not fanciful emotional grounds. If VRT is so high then why are car sales at such a high level ? It's not as if cars are wearing out after two years or rusting to bits like the old days.

If VRT goes what will replace it ? Do you think the Government can afford to just ditch one particular revenue stream ?

People in this country require cars to get from A to B, public transport is not at anything near an effective level where people can consider giving up their car.

Not my problem what it is to be replaced with, I don't see the mafia getting grants when they are no longer able to continue with extortion due to the law being imposed.

An argument some use in favour of VRT is that its abolishment will devalue existing cars doesnt hold up as unless you are retiring from driving you will not lose anything as your new car will be 25% or more cheaper.

junkyard

VRT is a rip-off and anyone who thinks its a good idea must be living in the clouds or doesn't own a car. I'm sick to death of paying taxes. This latest little scam has to be stopped as its totally unjust. Sometimes I think we're living in a communist country and nobody will admit to it. It seems to me that anytime someone tries to better them selves or treat themselves to something nice there are huge taxes to be paid for the pleasure, God knows we work hard enough here and pay taxes on our wages. When you see what those f***ers in Dail Eireann get paid for doing sweet f**k all its no wonder they have to rob us to pay for everything.:mad:

Anan1

Tipsy Mac wrote:

Not my problem what it is to be replaced with, I don't see the mafia getting grants when they are no longer able to continue with extortion due to the law being imposed.

Of course it's your problem. You are a taxpayer, aren't you?

Flangemonger

Anan1 wrote:

I'm a driver and I'm in favour of VRT. I've had this discussion with friends & family, and many of them are too.

I must go and have a look for your thread to see why (fingers crossed it's still there) To my mind the only people who would gain from VRT on imported secondhand cars (apart from Mr Taxman of course) are Irish car dealers who are protecting their turf. It helps them to control the market.

VRT is blatantly anticompetitive, which is why the EU is breathing down the Irish government's neck about it (though not half hard enough in my opinion). Revenue comes up with what they call an Open Market Selling Price, which is supposedly what the car would cost you if bought secondhand in Ireland. Then the VRT is 30% on top of that!!

Mercifully the OMSP they quote is usually lower than you'd ever manage to really buy the car in Ireland. Otherwise the VRT would be even more outlandish!

So if the OMSP was accurate, we'd be paying 30% over the odds for daring to import a car. If that's not naked protectionism of the Irish motor trade, I don't know what is.

Even if the Government finally bows to the EU pressure, I wouldn't hold out much hope of cars getting cheaper to import. They'd just bring in a 30% tax on getting your number plates printed or some sh1t€ like that, and buy themselves another 10 years while the EU chases them through the courts.

While I don't have a problem paying tax in itself (the streetlights don't light by magic), it really pi$$es me off when, on top of paying tax on every single thing I buy, I have to hand over 42% of my paycheque without even seeing it. Meanwhile the super-rich pay approximately ZERO percent income tax and grab back as much of the tax they DO pay as they possibly can. :mad:

parsi

Tipsy Mac wrote:

People in this country require cars to get from A to B, public transport is not at anything near an effective level where people can consider giving up their car.

I asked - if VRT is so crippling why are car sales so high and why does every dealer have a glitzy showroom? We don't need to change everyyear just to go from a-to-b . Cars are way more reliable now and last much longer. If VRT was such an important factor the sales of 2nd cars would be higher but as it is every dealer has a lot full of second-hand cars.

You also haven't suggested how to replace the lost revenue ? Increase PAYE ? Increase VAT ? Add a fuel tax ?

The idea of a Vehicle Registration Tax is dubious to some people. However when all is said and done it's a tax and is there to get money. If it goes it will be recouped somewhere else . Somewhere the EU won't be able to moan about. Don't be deluded that if the next budget scraps VRT it won't add 10c to petrol, 25euro to roadtax etc etc.

the_batman

I remember Conor Faughnan from the AA said that a 1 cent surcharge on petrol would generate the same amount as is currently generated from VRT.

If VRT was eliminated, the price of nearly new cars would tumble very fast. You could be talking about 30%!

parsi wrote:

I asked - if VRT is so crippling why are car sales so high and why does every dealer have a glitzy showroom? We don't need to change everyyear just to go from a-to-b . Cars are way more reliable now and last much longer. If VRT was such an important factor the sales of 2nd cars would be higher but as it is every dealer has a lot full of second-hand cars.

You also haven't suggested how to replace the lost revenue ? Increase PAYE ? Increase VAT ? Add a fuel tax ?

The idea of a Vehicle Registration Tax is dubious to some people. However when all is said and done it's a tax and is there to get money. If it goes it will be recouped somewhere else . Somewhere the EU won't be able to moan about. Don't be deluded that if the next budget scraps VRT it won't add 10c to petrol, 25euro to roadtax etc etc.

maidhc

junkyard wrote:

This latest little scam has to be stopped as its totally unjust. Sometimes I think we're living in a communist country and nobody will admit to it.

I'd love to understand the little minds that preoccupy themselves worrying if people are able to import E30's too cheap.

It would be fun to break the system by requesting puntos, fiestas and othe like. If eveyone did it once a day...

junkyard wrote:

It seems to me that anytime someone tries to better them selves or treat themselves to something nice there are huge taxes to be paid for the pleasure, God knows we work hard enough here and pay taxes on our wages.

I have had first hand experience of taxes in spain recently, and they are worse. Not cars specifically, but in general.

the_batman

This was done a few months ago, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054914296, and from what I can see there was no increase.

maidhc wrote:

It would be fun to break the system by requesting puntos, fiestas and othe like. If eveyone did it once a day...

unkel

the_batman wrote:

I remember Conor Faughnan from the AA said that a 1 cent surcharge on petrol would generate the same amount as is currently generated from VRT

Either you remember wrong, or your man is an eejit. The surcharge would be many times that, a quick guess would be 30-40 cent on top of petrol AND diesel. VRT generates a billion per annum...

mike65

I think you'd need about 20 cent a ltr on top. Someone proberly has worked it out.

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

Exactly. We get cheaper petrol than the rest of europe, they get cheaper cars. It all levels out over the years.


The uk are currently paying in and around £1 a litre iirc. Thats €1.45 or so. A fill in my 80 ltr tank cost roughly €92 here. In the uk it would cost €116. Thats €24 a fill.

junkyard

They're still taking a lot of tax on petrol and diesel.:(

Guy:Incognito

junkyard wrote:

They're still taking a lot of tax on petrol and diesel.:(

but not anythign like the countries with no vrt.

unkel

I'd much prefer the motor tax to be absorbed by an increase in fuel duty tbh. The polluter should pay. Good opportunity too, to get rid of that ridiculous scheme that millionairs get their diesel nearly free of charge and hit the IRA hard at the same time

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Good opportunity too, to get rid of that ridiculous scheme that millionairs get their diesel nearly free of charge and hit the IRA hard at the same time

Free diesel? Pray thee tell.

Not sure if you mean the marked diesel, which is substantially cheaper, but can only be used in predominatly agricultural vehicles with a max speed of 50km/h.

prospect

I would have absoloutly no objection to VRT & VAT on vehicles&parts, And Motor TAX, and Fuel Leveys, if every penny of that money was invested back into our road network.

WTF are motorists expected to put up for such a huge chunk of public revenue? Can they not calculate the costs of road maintenance and upgrade & development work, divide this up into annual motor tax, and then the revenue shortfall that is used on NON-MOTORING services should be picked up elsewhere, like income tax...

LikeOhMyGawd!

unkel wrote:

Good opportunity too, to get rid of that ridiculous scheme that millionairs get their diesel nearly free of charge and hit the IRA hard at the same time

erm, what are you on about there??

unkel

LikeOhMyGawd! wrote:

erm, what are you on about there??

Abolish red diesel. Why should we as tax payers subsidise millionaire farmers?

Carb

parsi wrote:

You also haven't suggested how to replace the lost revenue ? Increase PAYE ? Increase VAT ? Add a fuel tax ?

The idea of a Vehicle Registration Tax is dubious to some people. However when all is said and done it's a tax and is there to get money. If it goes it will be recouped somewhere else . Somewhere the EU won't be able to moan about. Don't be deluded that if the next budget scraps VRT it won't add 10c to petrol, 25euro to roadtax etc etc.

As VRT probably ends up in the bottomless pit that is the health service, I think it should be added to PAYE. Nobody can seriously say that motorists should contribute more to the public services that everybody uses, just because they buy a car. Next best scenario, would be that it would be put on petrol, as at least then you get taxed for using the cars, not owning them, but it still doesn't get over my first point. Roadtax itself is already at a ridiculous level, so I can't even come up with a reason why it should be added to it.

junkyard

If the motorists stood up to the government like the farmers I'd say they would have to back off taxing the motorist as much as they do. The last time I looked farmers were getting paid not the use their land ffs, it doesn't get much better than that.:rolleyes:
Farmers have it sorted when it comes to tax.

maidhc

junkyard wrote:

If the motorists stood up to the government like the farmers I'd say they would have to back off taxing the motorist as much as they do. The last time I looked farmers were getting paid not the use their land ffs, it doesn't get much better than that.:rolleyes:
Farmers have it sorted when it comes to tax.

Farmers pay the same tax as everyone else I'm afraid, and there is feck all profit to be made from it in the first place. If there was money there I would be at it full time, but I am here sitting in front of a laptop instead.

LikeOhMyGawd!

unkel wrote:

Abolish red diesel. Why should we as tax payers subsidise millionaire farmers?

The government subsidises massive companies who are worth billions, giving them incentives, tax-breaks and handouts. And they use taxpayer's money for it. What the farmers get is probably a drop in the ocean in comparison.

Also, if red diesel is for use in vehicles that are used predominantly in agriculture then why should motor tax be incorporated into this? Red diesel is used in plenty of vehicles and machinery that are used only on the land and not on roads so why should the users pay motor tax in the fuel? You might as well incorporate motor tax into home heating fuel! Farming is an industry and most industry gets breaks from the government. The only difference is that we see farmers all the time and fools think 'millionnaire ba$tard'. It's the ba$tards you don't see that you should be more concerned about.

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Abolish red diesel. Why should we as tax payers subsidise millionaire farmers?

How exactly are farmers being subsidised? Road tax is only payable if you drive on a road!

There is a legitimate issue in relation to green diesel being used in tractors used by builders to draw rubble and so forth, but most farmers use their tractors in fields and only use the road to move from A-B.

Could you explain why I should pay duty on the 200L of fuel a 6.5L diesel will burn through in a long day mowing grass... on my private property.

Carb

[QUOTE=LikeOhMyGawdAlso, if red diesel is for use in vehicles that are used predominantly in agriculture then why should motor tax be incorporated into this? Red diesel is used in plenty of vehicles and machinery that are used only on the land and not on roads so why should the users pay motor tax in the fuel[/QUOTE]

None of it is actually called motor tax, its actually fuel tax or excise duty. I pay this tax on the petrol for my lawnmower, chainsaw etc. which I never use on the road. Using the argument about the roads is waste of time, as motorists pay road tax, while farmers pay a token amount. If logic was applied, farmers would pay much more to repair the damage to roads at entrances to fields, farmyards etc. They could also tax cows for sh*tting on the road as it doesn't seem to have a great effect on the tar either. Everbody knows that only a fraction of the taxes collected from fuel, road tax, VRT goes into roads anyway, so the usage argument doesn't come into it. If the argument for tax on fuel, was purely enviromental, I don't think farmers would come of too lightly either, considering what comes out of the exhauts of some tractors. Come to think of it, I don't think the cows would to well here either:)

maidhc

Carb wrote:

None of it is actually called motor tax, its actually fuel tax or excise duty. I pay this tax on the petrol for my lawnmower, chainsaw etc. which I never use on the road. Using the argument about the roads is waste of time, as motorists pay road tax, while farmers pay a token amount. If logic was applied, farmers would pay much more to repair the damage to roads at entrances to fields, farmyards etc. They could also tax cows for sh*tting on the road as it doesn't seem to have a great effect on the tar either. Everbody knows that only a fraction of the taxes collected from fuel, road tax, VRT goes into roads anyway, so the usage argument doesn't come into it. If the argument for tax on fuel, was purely enviromental, I don't think farmers would come of too lightly either, considering what comes out of the exhauts of some tractors. Come to think of it, I don't think the cows would to well here either:)

All points well made.

But in fairness aviation fuel and home heating oil should also be taxed if we start going down that road (pardon the pun).

The reality is farming would stop if you had to feed a large tractor with road diesel. As I said 200L is a bloody expensive tank, and the margins don't justify it.

junkyard

Farmers get more tax breaks than any other "industry". They also get major breaks when it comes to planning permission. I was trying to get planning permission a few years ago to build a garage and the planning restrictions were unbelievable and I have to pay rates. My next door neighbor builds a shed you could literally park 3 jumbo jets in no planning permission needed and no rates to pay. Any other "industry" has to pay rates and seek planning permission as far as I know.

Darando

First off- you cant have all the cake and eat it. If you own a car you should pay a tax on it. but the method should be not as it is. It makes total sense to abolish VRT and put it on petrol. Therefore as someone mentioned the pollutor pays. Heads up - we are pollutors and its the way of the future.

My other theory is what will they do if the they replace VRT with extra tax on petrol if we all going hybrid!!!!! Massive loss then in tax!!!!!

junkyard

Rest assured if hybrid cars catch on they'll be taxed too, its just an incentive.
Look at the mess that they've made with twin-cab pick-up trucks, first they were commercials, then they changed the VRT catagory and now they're talking about changing the road tax catagory to private. What a f**k-up. A lot of car/commercial dealers down my way won't trade them as a result of all this. Its like playing a game of football and the other team changing the rules all the time and my team paying the cost everytime.

Carb

maidhc wrote:

All points well made.

But in fairness aviation fuel and home heating oil should also be taxed if we start going down that road (pardon the pun).

The reality is farming would stop if you had to feed a large tractor with road diesel. As I said 200L is a bloody expensive tank, and the margins don't justify it.

Which is why I wouldn't advocate higher taxes on green diesel. This same green diesel is used in construction machinery etc. Like Junkyard, I may have other issues with regards to benefits to farmers, but I don't think a VRT discussion thread is the place for it.

I think the biggest issue people have is that there is no known basis for the way taxes are levied. If fuel excise went back into roads, I think a higher excise on fuel for road going vehicles, over excise on fuel for agricultural machinery is perfectly fair. Car use the road more than tractors, so they pay more tax. But this is not the case, but its hardly the fault of farmers that excise collected from fuel doesn't go into roads.

I think road tax is equally as unjust as VRT. I currently drive a 2.2l car. My tax is 722 euro per year. If I had bought a 1.8 version, I 'd used pretty much the same amount of fuel, the car would be basically the same size and weight, so my impact on the enviroment and the roads would be the same, yet I would have save a couple of hundred euro in road tax. A person could have a 3l sports car and only drive it a couple of thousand miles per year, but somebody else could have a 1.4l car and drive 30000 miles a year, but will only have paid a fraction of the road tax.

Solution: Do away with road tax, and increase the excise on petrol/diesel, that way you get taxed for using you car or choosing a high powered car. It won't solve the problem of the taxes not going into roads, but at least there is logic behind how the tax is calculated, and people can make their choices accordingly. Also do away VRT, put it on income tax, and that way everbody is paying for the services that VRT/motorist was previously paying for. Any politician that implements something like this, might get my vote.

jhegarty

on the topic of motor tax...

what does a pertrol 2l and diesel 2l (which uses far less fuel) pay the same road tax ?

jhegarty

unkel wrote:

Abolish red diesel. Why should we as tax payers subsidise millionaire farmers?

yep they are all millionairs ... thats why most farmers i know have to take a second job just to make ends meet......:mad:

maidhc

junkyard wrote:

Farmers get more tax breaks than any other "industry". They also get major breaks when it comes to planning permission.

</topic>
<rant>
There is a few exceptions for planning in relation to sheds, but they are quite detailed as to size, distance from road, use etc. Certainly you need planning for something "big enough for 3 Jumbos".

Rates may not apply (I think the sheer amount of covered area needed in farming requires this to be so), but income tax is levied the same as any other business. There are very detailed requirments as to animal tracability, we have the tightest and most draconian requirments in europe on the medicines which can be given to animals, waste and IPPC licences are required by some larger farmers, in fact practically everything is regulated with reams of red tape. It is completely misguided and wrong to think government does not impose substantial costs on the farming industry

Even the grants "the millions" people say farmers got is misguided. The reality is that when the grants were introduced the value of produce fell by a commensurate amount. The Tescos essentially got the "the millions", not the farmers.

Dont rely on the popular press to say this though. If farming was so damn popular and profitable people would be staying at it. Instead they are taking the value of assets and moving off.

</rant>

<topic>

What carb suggests may work, although it would make life much easier for the dublin dweller who just uses a car for recreation as against those down the country who clock up 20k+ p.a. driving to and from work.

junkyard

I'd be all for the tax on petrol and diesel and do away with VRT and tax on cars too.

el tel

Carb wrote:

Solution: Do away with road tax, and increase the excise on petrol/diesel, that way you get taxed for using you car or choosing a high powered car. It won't solve the problem of the taxes not going into roads, but at least there is logic behind how the tax is calculated, and people can make their choices accordingly.

Didn't the Irish government try this already, where they combined road tax with the fuel duty for a few years but then decided to separate it again but did not reduce the fuel duty accordingly?

Carb

maidhc wrote:

What carb suggests may work, although it would make life much easier for the dublin dweller who just uses a car for recreation as against those down the country who clock up 20k+ p.a. driving to and from work.

Believe me, I not in the business of making life easier for any Dublin dweller, but we can't have it everyway. I just happen to think tax by usage is the best way. Somebody living in Dublin, that only needs a car for recreation, has probably gone to the added expense of living in an area with good public transport. You also have have a much more densely populated area, so there are far more motorists contributing to shorter stretches of of road, so they would probably say that they're paying a fair share.

Carb

el tel wrote:

Didn't the Irish government try this already, where they combined road tax with the fuel duty for a few years but then decided to separate it again but did not reduce the fuel duty accordingly?

Not in my short motoring life, but based on the current government, it nots beyond belief that it was done previously. I love to know what excuse could have been used for separating them again.

maidhc

el tel wrote:

Didn't the Irish government try this already, where they combined road tax with the fuel duty for a few years but then decided to separate it again but did not reduce the fuel duty accordingly?

Before my time also, but Jack Lynch did abolish car tax, amongst other things.

The national debt went through the roof, and car tax was reintroduced out of necessity.