A "Leap of Faith"

bonkey

the_new_mr wrote:

when I have a book that ... has scientific facts in it that scientists have only been able to verify recently ... then I see that it can't be from the illiterate man and must instead come from a Higher Being.

Sounds a bit like the reasoning offered why people Nostradamus was really predicting the future : We've found something to be true which we can then related back to older writings which may or may not have been referring to the same thing.

I'm pretty sure its also the type of reasoning offered as proof that we've been visited by aliens.

and has a number of laws when abided by brings out an easier life for both the individual and the society

The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette has those too, but I don't see that as proof of of any sort of higher being.

Or is it the whole "book written by an illiterate person" bit that makes you believe? Peig managed one of those.

jc

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

I’m not going to attempt to psychoanalyse you, but I very much doubt that your aggressive anti-clerical feeling is completely unrelated to your wider Worldview - you simply bring up the subject, and get very passionate about it, a bit too often here for me to believe you.

You’re essentially saying here that you can’t understand why a rational, intelligent theist would not agree with you. Maybe you’re both wrong.

Oh, it's very much part of my wider worldview, I wouldn't try to deny that in the slightest. My anti-clerical beliefs are based on my own logic and my opinion of the actions of many clerics and the institutions they're part of.

I bring up the topic now and then because it baffles me why any intelligent person would follow these instutions. I know many people that are far more intelligent than me yet they still believe in god(s) despite being unable to offer a logical, rational or intelligent reason for doing so. This I find quite frustrating, if I'm honest as I believe in many ways that the world would be a better place without religion. I might be wrong about the existence of a deity, I accept that. It's why I consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist.

That said, I don't like being wrong and it appears to me that the majority of the world disagrees with me on this so I'd like to at least attempt to understand where they're coming from.

the_new_mr

I don't want this thread to get hijacked but I'd like to address a few points quickly if I may?

Wibbs wrote:

Unless you are a convert, then the "choice" of the faith itself would be down to a socio/geographical standpoint as others have suggested. The choice to devote yourself to it, is certainly a more personal matter, though not entirely bereft of those previous influences.

Well, even if you're not a convert, if someone takes the decision to continue believing after questioning has occurred and to try their best to adhere to the teachings of their religion (in private as well as in public) then the socio/geographical thing doesn't really stand here. On the other hand, from an Islamic point of view, everyone's faith (or lack of it) is between each individual and God and Islam believes that everyone has their own "personal file" if you like

As for the point that some people like to make that it's unfair for any faith to say that anyone who doesn't follow it is doomed. The Islamic viewpoint is that ignorance of Islam excuses them for not following it and so their fate will be decided on the Day of Judgement according to their actions (and, more importantly, the intentions behind their actions). However, just how ignorant you have to be or what other religion can be accepted as an alternative is purely up to God and is for no human to judge.

Wibbs wrote:

Which non believers? For every non believer who would back that statement up, you would likely find ten, or more of their number that would disagree and similarly those of other faiths that would say different. In fact, any non believer that would say that, without good evidence is agreeing with you that it's a supernatural book. Hardly non believers at that point. EG critical analysis would suggest that the same illiterate man was a successful merchant for many years, which would suggest literacy and numeracy and the book itself wasn't fully codified in his lifetime.

Being an exceptionally good trader requires numeracy but not necessarily literacy. I've seen that with my own eyes in Ireland. Also, I'm not prepared to get into a debate about it here but, even if he was literate (and he wasn't), then that would only take very little away from the marvel that is the Quran considering his life was a simple life first in the desert and then in Mecca travelling on caravans to do business and not spent in scholary learning etc etc. There are plenty of non-Muslim historians who at least agree on that historical fact. And, as I said, he was illiterate.

Wibbs wrote:

Well this road is a well trodden one, but suffice to say that miracles of all flavours in all faiths are based more on the need for "proof" of the original position, rather than the other way round.

We shall agree to disagree there

The Corinthian wrote:

We all choose to believe. We all choose that our senses are not lying to us and that the sky is indeed blue and the grass green. We choose to accept (or deny) evidence presented before us. We choose to believe the word of another or not.

To clarify, I choose to believe what I see as air tight. Rejecting belief is when you reject what you know is right.

bonkey wrote:

Sounds a bit like the reasoning offered why people Nostradamus was really predicting the future

I think you'll find it's a little different in fairness

bonkey wrote:

The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette has those too, but I don't see that as proof of of any sort of higher being.

Well, I don't think she ever claimed to be. Never read it but Kudos to her all the same Prob would make society better if people went along with it.

Wibbs wrote:

A bit off topic and I don't honestly know why you mention it, but were there ever?

The Corinthian wrote:

This is irrelevant to the discussion - also because we’re not really discussing Islam but religious faith in general.

I mentioned what I did because I stated that the rules, if followed correctly, produce a better life for each individual and the society they're in and so wanted to state that there are no such examples of this now in case anyone thought to say "Look at the Islamic countries now etc etc!" because most of them are corrupt and it stinks like rotten meat!!! This was different to the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for example since the society was based on the laws without corruption.

Wibbs wrote:

Even as a sceptic, that I would have more faith in TBH. I prefer the spiritual when personal and not always bound by dogma.

The Corinthian wrote:

Not at all, seeing a vision of a saint, prophet, angel or daemon is a perfectly understandable means by which one may then choose to accept a faith or other. Of course, whether they did see a saint, prophet, angel or daemon is another matter, but I wouldn’t rule it out either.

Well, it's not quite like you guys might think

I'll tell you then. One night me and my friends were driving around in the hills during the winter. The roads were a bit icy and we were coming back down. Anyway, on one of the narrow roads, we met a car coming the other way on a particularly tight corner that barely had room for both cars. I had to stop to let the other car by. When I tried to get going again, I found that I was on a big patch of ice and had real trouble getting traction down to move forward and turn to avoid the edge to get round the corner without going right off the edge to at least a 10m drop!!! Anyway, after some time, I eventually managed to get going again thank God.

After I'd gotten going again, I said things like "That driver had to come along on that corner didn't they?!!! I mean, the only driver we see all night and on that bend!!" Then, my friend turned and said to me "Good thing we weren't going round at normal speed eh?". Then it hit me like a big slap in the face (I know it's a cliche). The only corner with such a big patch of ice and the only time we had met a car. I was totally convinced that God had put that car there at that exact time for that exact purpose. Maybe the other driver was an angel or maybe it was just another person trying to make their journey and our meeting there was for both our benefits. Maybe there was no other car. Only God knows. Anyway, that's one such example.

Anyway, this thread has totally been hijacked. Truth is, sleepy asked so I answered. I answered honestly and truthfully. If people aren't convinced then that's up to them since there is free will.

But here's something that popped into my head earlier today. It's true that athiests and agnostics find it hard to see how someone who believes (whatever their faith may be) can make that leap of faith. However, it's also true that people who believe find it hard to see why athiests and agnostics cannot believe. For me anyway and others I know, the path is just as obviously right to believers as it may seem obviously false to non-believers.

A verse comes to mind that fits the bill quite nicely.

Al-Baqara:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, it's not quite like you guys might think

I'll tell you then. One night me and my friends were driving around in the hills during the winter. The roads were a bit icy and we were coming back down. Anyway, on one of the narrow roads, we met a car coming the other way on a particularly tight corner that barely had room for both cars. I had to stop to let the other car by. When I tried to get going again, I found that I was on a big patch of ice and had real trouble getting traction down to move forward and turn to avoid the edge to get round the corner without going right off the edge to at least a 10m drop!!! Anyway, after some time, I eventually managed to get going again thank God.

After I'd gotten going again, I said things like "That driver had to come along on that corner didn't they?!!! I mean, the only driver we see all night and on that bend!!" Then, my friend turned and said to me "Good thing we weren't going round at normal speed eh?". Then it hit me like a big slap in the face (I know it's a cliche). The only corner with such a big patch of ice and the only time we had met a car. I was totally convinced that God had put that car there at that exact time for that exact purpose. Maybe the other driver was an angel or maybe it was just another person trying to make their journey and our meeting there was for both our benefits. Maybe there was no other car. Only God knows. Anyway, that's one such example.

[/i]

Nothing in your description of what caused your leap of
faith is Islamic. So what made you choose Islam from that experience. Why do you
think Allah put that car there and not Krishna or Jesus ?

Many people from different faiths have very similiar experiences of life saving
events like that one and also believe god did it.

I think the only reason you believe that Allah, the Islamic image of God, put
that car there was because your background is in Islam.

So we are back at environment/upbring being a very big factor in the leap-of-faith.

(ps. Im not trying to belittle your experience in any way, Im just pointing out that although you may say it was the car being there that caused your leap-of-faith it shows that the faith had to be there in order to think it was Allah who did it)

growler

the_new_mr wrote:

I I'll tell you then. One night me and my friends were driving around in the hills during the winter. The roads were a bit icy and we were coming back down. Anyway, on one of the narrow roads, we met a car coming the other way on a particularly tight corner that barely had room for both cars. I had to stop to let the other car by. When I tried to get going again, I found that I was on a big patch of ice and had real trouble getting traction down to move forward and turn to avoid the edge to get round the corner without going right off the edge to at least a 10m drop!!! Anyway, after some time, I eventually managed to get going again thank God.

After I'd gotten going again, I said things like "That driver had to come along on that corner didn't they?!!! I mean, the only driver we see all night and on that bend!!" Then, my friend turned and said to me "Good thing we weren't going round at normal speed eh?". Then it hit me like a big slap in the face (I know it's a cliche). The only corner with such a big patch of ice and the only time we had met a car. I was totally convinced that God had put that car there at that exact time for that exact purpose. Maybe the other driver was an angel or maybe it was just another person trying to make their journey and our meeting there was for both our benefits. Maybe there was no other car. Only God knows. Anyway, that's one such example.

Anyway, this thread has totally been hijacked. Truth is, sleepy asked so I answered. I answered honestly and truthfully. If people aren't convinced then that's up to them since there is free will.

If this was a moment of revelation would you be as quick to make the leap of faith had you skidded on the ice into the other car killing the hypotethical 3 young children in the back seat and disfiguring yourself and your friends for life?

All us of have narrowly avoided death and injury and some point, if not everyday, I personally attach no significance to such events, and I want nothing to do with a God than is so perverse as to plant ice/cars in one's path in order to frighten puny humans into worship, you do because you are predisposed to think that way.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

Nothing in your description of what caused your leap of
faith is Islamic. So what made you choose Islam from that experience.

Well, I was already Muslim by that stage. Also, that event wasn't the event that made me take the leap of faith. I guess you could say it was an event that affirmed it. My experience is quite (obviously) a universal one and was only meant to show my feeling of the presence of God.

DinoBot wrote:

I think the only reason you believe that Allah, the Islamic image of God, put
that car there was because your background is in Islam.

So we are back at environment/upbring being a very big factor in the leap-of-faith.

Don't want to repeat myself really so maybe look at my previous posts.

growler wrote:

If this was a moment of revelation would you be as quick to make the leap of faith had you skidded on the ice into the other car killing the hypotethical 3 young children in the back seat and disfiguring yourself and your friends for life?

Everything happens for a reason. I saw my particular situation as proof that when it's not your time then it's not your time. We are all responsible and have to do what we can (wear seatbelts, study for the exams etc) but, in the end, everything goes back to God.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, I was already Muslim by that stage. Also, that event wasn't the event that made me take the leap of faith. I guess you could say it was an event that affirmed it. My experience is quite (obviously) a universal one and was only meant to show my feeling of the presence of God.

Don't want to repeat myself really so maybe look at my previous posts.

Everything happens for a reason. I saw my particular situation as proof that when it's not your time then it's not your time. We are all responsible and have to do what we can (wear seatbelts, study for the exams etc) but, in the end, everything goes back to God.

But do you understand my point that the belief had to be there already
in order for you to attribute that car being put there by Allah.
So the event only "proved" your worldview.

But if such an event happened to a christian it would "prove" his worldview that
Jesus loves him. A pagan would see it was his spiritual guide driving the other
car and his worldview would be "proved".

A common theme is that the base belief was already there.

If you were christian you would say Jesus put that car there ? Or would you
still say it was from Allah ?

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

Oh, it's very much part of my wider worldview, I wouldn't try to deny that in the slightest. My anti-clerical beliefs are based on my own logic and my opinion of the actions of many clerics and the institutions they're part of.

I’m not denying that they are part of your wider worldview or even that they are unfounded, only that they have shaped your wider worldview just as other experiences have shaped the wider worldview of theists. “Pupi siamo, tutti quanti”.

the_new_mr wrote:

I mentioned what I did because I stated that the rules, if followed correctly, produce a better life for each individual and the society they're in and so wanted to state that there are no such examples of this now in case anyone thought to say "Look at the Islamic countries now etc etc!" because most of them are corrupt and it stinks like rotten meat!!!

Perhaps, but it is a very contentious issue even if relevant. What you are using is the classic argument used by Communists when it’s pointed out to them that every Communist state has historically been a brutal disaster - i.e. “that wasn’t real Communism” - and it’s simply not a very believable argument.

This was different to the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for example since the society was based on the laws without corruption.

Whatever about Society being based upon the laws without corruption, corruption was already quite rife from the ancient World onwards, it’s only in recent centuries that we have really begun to identify and tackle it - so that really does not make any difference.

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

“Pupi siamo, tutti quanti”

Neither I, nor Babelfish understand this?

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

Neither I, nor Babelfish understand this?

"Puppets we are, every one of us" - it's from a play by Pirandello.

growler

I'm no longer certain that the "leap of faith" is a concious act. Its fair to say that humanity has, historically, been prone to superstition. From the first neanderthal who ran back to cower in his cave at the sound of thunder to those who thought chucking nubile young lasses into volcanoes might delay eruptions, many of us seem to be predisposed to see the supernatural in the natural. The big religions have created enough mythology around their histories , mythologies so vague and open to interpretation and manipulation that they can supply easy answers to a host of problems for unquestioning minds.

As science provided answers to the problems of lightning / volcanoes / rain / mental illness etc. current religions have continually shifted their collective emphasis to remain a step ahead of science, a neat move really. What is bizarre is that there are still those who profess faith in a religion even though these religions keep shifting the "goalposts" of what belief should entail.

Schuhart

growler wrote:

As science provided answers to the problems of lightning / volcanoes / rain / mental illness etc. current religions have continually shifted their collective emphasis to remain a step ahead of science

Some have, but some almost revel in the retention of propositions that defy logic. For example, fundemental Christians who insist the world is ten thousand years old. I think that is the more pertinent point.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

But do you understand my point that the belief had to be there already
in order for you to attribute that car being put there by Allah.
So the event only "proved" your worldview.

Yes I already got that point. I don't mean this to be understood the wrong way but I would have thought that was rather obvious. I thought that was clear when I said:

the_new_mr wrote:

I guess you could say it was an event that affirmed it. My experience is quite (obviously) a universal one and was only meant to show my feeling of the presence of God.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

Yes I already got that point. I don't mean this to be understood the wrong way.. :

No worries, Cool, me being a bit slow on the uptake

the_new_mr

Ah, you're not slow. It happens