Can you afford to buy a home in Ireland?

Red Kooga

..... Because Im getting seriously worried that I cant and that its just going to keep escalating. A look on Daft.ie tells me I think its time to bag my bags for sunnier shores maybe. Th cheapest coming up on a search for Dublin says a 2 bedroom apartment in Blanchardstown will set me back a mere 299,000 euros. So are you renting like me and waiting to see if these crazy prices drop, thinking of hightailing it to another country or going to rob a bank? There isnt alot of choice left anymore, in Dublin especially, since the SSIA's kicked in is there?

6th

I havent seen that the SSiA's have actually affected the housing problem yet - its still to come. What about outside Dublin? Alot more people are moving out a bit and it seems to be well worth it.

seamus

I could afford one, but I'm appreciating my disposable income too much to do it. Plus I'm probably moving to the UK for a year or so which would make things complicated.

What's wrong with a 2 bed apartment (apart from the location)? People have to realise that in the last fifty years, nobody ever started out owning a five bedroomed detached home in Dublin. You have to start at the bottom and work up. Years ago, "the bottom" was a 2-up, 2-down terrace, now it's a 2-bed apartment (and you probably have more space in the apartment).

JimmySmith

The SSIAs have been having an effect since the start of the year alright. People have been getting loans based on SSIAs from parents etc.

I wouldnt worry too much about affording a house. Almost everybody cannot afford a house when they first think about buying, but somehow they do eventually. Its a big purchase and it takes time before you are in a position to do it. Most people cant start with a really big house, afterall it is a ladder. Many people saying they cant afford a house are really saying - 'i cant afford to jump straight onto the third rung'

Jump on the bottom rung the moment you have the means. Dont wait to leap to the second or third because it might just keep getting higher.

Maybe start with a 1 bed apt instead of a 2-bed? Nice big 1-bed apts can be got for around €275 in Dublin. If you had done this a year ago you would have paid less than €200K for the same apts.

You can rent for now anyway and at a later stage buy a house. Dont let it stress you too much though. Everyone has been in the same position.

zuutroy

I think I'm one of the few people that doesn't give a damn about owning a house. People get so knotted up about owning something, anything! I'm quite happy not to deal with all the hassle, and not to have any ties. I'll wait until I'm earning enough so my back isn't to the wall if I buy somewhere, be that in Ireland or elsewhere.

I'm slowly coming to the terms of the fact i'll prob be living with my parents with quite some time as much fun as it is, I could rent but I like buying shoes and clothes too much and i'd miss my family

JimmySmith

zuutroy wrote:

I think I'm one of the few people that doesn't give a damn about owning a house. People get so knotted up about owning something, anything! I'm quite happy not to deal with all the hassle, and not to have any ties. I'll wait until I'm earning enough so my back isn't to the wall if I buy somewhere, be that in Ireland or elsewhere.

I used to be the same. Then wife and sprogs came along and i decided it was nice to have them all grow up accross the road from their friends and not move away because the landlord sold the house one day.

There comes a stage in your life when the rent or buying question becomes a decision you make for others and not yourself.

FillSpectre

6th wrote:

I havent seen that the SSiA's have actually affected the housing problem yet - its still to come. What about outside Dublin? Alot more people are moving out a bit and it seems to be well worth it.

Many people believe the 100% mortgage introduction at the end of last year was a pre-emtive move by SSIAs people.
A 3-4 hour commute to save on a house doesn't seem worth it for many people. Quality of life includes commuting time and cars and petrol will cost more in the long run.

Not everybody will get to own a property in Ireland and less people will. Currently Ireland has the highest homeownership in the world. THe nesxt to us is Italy which has a decreasing population

Naked Lepper

coolsmileygirl wrote:

I'm slowly coming to the terms of the fact i'll prob be living with my parents with quite some time as much fun as it is, I could rent but I like buying shoes and clothes too much adn i'd miss my family if

once you move out there will be no lucking back.....

Irish Wolf

JimmySmith wrote:

The SSIAs have been having an effect since the start of the year alright. People have been getting loans based on SSIAs from parents etc.

Really? At the most optimistic I would have thought the SSIA would bring in about 30k, so in my experience, as a lump sum, this wouldn't really impress many lenders. BOI offered me a mortgage of 135k! wow!

As far as Dublin is concerned, I think it's going to become more and more "accepeptable" to rent rather than buy - a more European vibe. Either that, or the first buyers are going to take the plumge down in the Barn, and it becomes the new Batter...

If your job is portable - leave Dublin!

Funkstard

FillSpectre wrote:

Many people believe the 100% mortgage introduction at the end of last year was a pre-emtive move by SSIAs people.
A 3-4 hour commute to save on a house doesn't seem worth it for many people. Quality of life includes commuting time and cars and petrol will cost more in the long run.

Not everybody will get to own a property in Ireland and less people will. Currently Ireland has the highest homeownership in the world. THe nesxt to us is Italy which has a decreasing population

No I was reading stats recently...there are a few European countries ahead of us in home ownership levels - Lithuania or Latvia or somewhere is at 97% :eek:

Archeron

It would be great if those really cheap (less than €90k i think) environmentally sound homes that were on display in that trade show England a few weeks back were to go into production. I'm sure there'd be no shortage of buyers.

FillSpectre

Funkstard wrote:

No I was reading stats recently...there are a few European countries ahead of us in home ownership levels - Lithuania or Latvia or somewhere is at 97% :eek:

I do stand corrected but I think you have to consider that the housing in these countries was not bought privately or at least heavily influence by its recent past. I would guess most of it was former state housing given to people through schemes but I don't know for sure

The Irish State also provided a lot of housing once we gained independence.

I'd like to see those stats if you have a link.

I would guess that their homeownship will drop as they become more westernised or europeanised. I am basically saying that is happening to us too.

Raskolnikov

Red Kooga wrote:

thinking of hightailing it to another country

Try taking a look at the price of property in the metropolitan areas of the UK and the US and you'll find the housing markets just as inflated (relative to average yearly income in the country) as they are in Ireland.

Just to give you a perspective on the whole "renting is dead money" nonsense, let me explain my circumstance. Living in the Cork City suburbs with my girlfriend in rented accomodation with another couple. We pay €340 a month in rent (including all bills, charges, etc) for newly furnished semi-detached house in a decent area. We could actually rent for cheaper but we prefer to pay for the luxury of a properly fitted place. We're only both starting out on our careers so we only take in €26K and €28K per annum in Net pay. That gives us €54K a year. Minus rent that's €50K. We save €1,200 a week (we could save more but again, we have lives). That gives us €14,400K in savings for ONE year. Assuming interest (3%) roughly matches inflation, even taking into account no future pay increases, we could have the money for a nice 3 bedroom semi-detached paid within 20 years.

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

Currently Ireland has the highest homeownership in the world. THe nesxt to us is Italy which has a decreasing population

I don't believe that is correct. Italy and Spain are higher, as is Hungary. (Source: RICS European Housing Review 2005)

Do you have a source for your assertion?

JimmySmith

Archeron wrote:

It would be great if those really cheap (less than €90k i think) environmentally sound homes that were on display in that trade show England a few weeks back were to go into production. I'm sure there'd be no shortage of buyers.

Its the land that costs the money though. And dont you know as soon as there is a saving to you the builders will slap on an extra few euro for themselves.

Irish Wolf wrote:

Really? At the most optimistic I would have thought the SSIA would bring in about 30k, so in my experience, as a lump sum, this wouldn't really impress many lenders. BOI offered me a mortgage of 135k! wow!

Its a rare occurance these days for one person to buy on their own, if they are an FTB.

Only a year ago the hardest part of becoming a home owner was getting a deposit together. Now its not, with SSIAs and 100% mortgages.

Archeron

JimmySmith wrote:

Its the land that costs the money though. And dont you know as soon as there is a saving to you the builders will slap on an extra few euro for themselves.
.

thats true. Perhaps the government could look at providing free or subsidised land from its own land stocks to provide enough housing to at least help the people who are in dire circumstances.

Regarding the builders profits, they are supposed to be included in the 90k, but its a sad fact that more would probably be tacked on. Would be nice if the goverment introduced legislation to make sure that affordable properties stayed affordable, and put a limit on profit margins.

zAbbo

Why on earth would you want to live in Dublin?

You'd get a good house for unde 300k in most other towns.

JimmySmith

zabbo wrote:

Why on earth would you want to live in Dublin?

You'd get a good house for unde 300k in most other towns.

The simple truth is that the closer to the main Job centres the houses are, the more expensive they get. When there are no jobs to be got, then houses will fall in value. There are other factors of course but that would be the main driver.

HelterSkelter

Raskolnikov wrote:

Try taking a look at the price of property in the metropolitan areas of the UK and the US and you'll find the housing markets just as inflated (relative to average yearly income in the country) as they are in Ireland.

Have to disagree with you there. I was looking at property in London and you can get a two bedroom house in a decent area for €300,000. And the same job pays at least 1.5 times the salary I am on here.

Raskolnikov wrote:

That gives us €14,400K in savings for ONE year. Assuming interest (3%) roughly matches inflation, even taking into account no future pay increases, we could have the money for a nice 3 bedroom semi-detached paid within 20 years.

Yeah but you are not taking into account the fact that houses will cost a lot more in 20 years time.

LegacyUser

why not buy with a friend?

Sleepy

A lot of threads about this already in the property forum. Many of us are convinced that the current property market in Ireland is a bubble just waiting to burst so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you...

I never planned to settle down here, and the house prices are even more of a reason not to.
No, I can't afford one and I don't plan to try.

It has a bungalow for 800k! That's stupid!!

TheBigLebowski

Raskolnikov wrote:

That gives us €14,400K in savings for ONE year. Assuming interest (3%) roughly matches inflation, even taking into account no future pay increases, we could have the money for a nice 3 bedroom semi-detached paid within 20 years.

That's at today's prices. You think you'll be able to buy a 'nice 3 bed semi in 20 years for 350k or so? Not a chance.
In my opinion, you lose money by trying to save for a house. It's a pointless exercise. What's the point in saving 20 grand in a year when house prices will probably go up by double or treble that meaning you will have to borrow another 20 or 40 grand to add the to the 20k you struggled to save while also wasting money paying rent...

Degsy

I bought my gaff three years ago through Dublin City Council Shared Ownership scheme.Basicly you only need 1500 euros for a deposit,be in full time emplyment for ayear or more and they will lend you up to 270k.That doesnt sound like much but there are apartments to be had for that money,especially round finglas which is an upcoming area at the moment.Two friends have bought under this scheme in the last six months and they're both very happy with thier purchases.If you're not in Dublin,mosty local authorities offer a similar scheme as well.Forget all this nonsense about bubbles bursting,that kind of scenario will only ever hurt investors and other people who want to make a profit out of buying a house.If its a home you're after buy now,coz you wont be able to afford it next year.

utopian

TheBigLebowski wrote:

That's at today's prices. You think you'll be able to buy a 'nice 3 bed semi in 20 years for 350k or so? Not a chance.
In my opinion, you lose money by trying to save for a house. It's a pointless exercise. What's the point in saving 20 grand in a year when house prices will probably go up by double or treble that meaning you will have to borrow another 20 or 40 grand to add the to the 20k you struggled to save while also wasting money paying rent...

The only wonder of it is that more foreign investors aren't piling into the Irish housing market. Returns well above deposit or stock-market rates, for ever and ever and ever...

Raskolnikov

HelterSkelter wrote:

Have to disagree with you there. I was looking at property in London and you can get a two bedroom house in a decent area for €300,000. And the same job pays at least 1.5 times the salary I am on here.

Have you lived in London? If so then you'll know what you're posting is utter nonsense. The average price of a house in Greater London is £306,664 source, in Eurons, that comes to a whooping €448,957.92 at todays rates. The average house price in Dublin is €378,822 source. If you've been to London, then you'll also know that the cost of living there is scandalous, even worse than here in ireland, little wonder that London is ranked 3rd and Dublin 13th in the world's most expensive cities to live in. source

I think the old adage about far away hills certainly rings true here.

6th

I bought my house 5 years ago for £149,000 (irish) its now worth €385,000 - but the thing is i dont care what its worth! It could fall to nothing and i wouldnt care, i have a roof over my head.

Get in there and buy with a friend if you have to, its a start.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

I don't believe that is correct. Italy and Spain are higher, as is Hungary. (Source: RICS European Housing Review 2005)

Do you have a source for your assertion?

Yeap, I am aware it is not the most up to date

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_hom_own-people-home-ownership

Without reading the whole report you posted any chance of the actual information and figures you are quoting. I am sure there has been movement but not massive ones

HelterSkelter

Raskolnikov wrote:

Have you lived in London? If so then you'll know what you're posting is utter nonsense. The average price of a house in Greater London is £306,664 source, in Eurons, that comes to a whooping €448,957.92 at todays rates. The average house price in Dublin is €378,822 source. If you've been to London, then you'll also know that the cost of living there is scandalous, even worse than here in ireland, little wonder that London is ranked 3rd and Dublin 13th in the world's most expensive cities to live in. source

I think the old adage about far away hills certainly rings true here.

You are looking at the average cost in London which takes into account houses in mega expensive areas like central London, Chelsea, etc. Have a look at http://ononemap.com/map/index?maptype=Sales, go into an area such as Tooting (SW17), there are 15 two bedroom houses there for £200,000 or less. Up the price to £250,000 and you get 68 two bedroom houses. I am in London quite a lot and I find it cheaper than here for day to day expensives (e.g. Groceries).

Kinetic^

I've got a 2 bed apartment and I'm currently selling it to move to a house twice the size

HelterSkelter

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

I've got a 2 bed apartment and I'm currently selling it to move to a house twice the size

Where is the apartment and where is the house?

FillSpectre

HelterSkelter wrote:

You are looking at the average cost in London which takes into account houses in mega expensive areas like central London, Chelsea, etc. Have a look at http://ononemap.com/map/index?maptype=Sales, go into an area such as Tooting (SW17), there are 15 two bedroom houses there for £200,000 or less. Up the price to £250,000 and you get 68 two bedroom houses. I am in London quite a lot and I find it cheaper than here for day to day expensives (e.g. Groceries).

Freedom for Tooting! (Citizen Smith)

Tooting is actually not a bad area two tube stops and a big hospital

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

Yeap, I am aware it is not the most up to date

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_hom_own-people-home-ownership

Without reading the whole report you posted any chance of the actual information and figures you are quoting. I am sure there has been movement but not massive ones

The figures given are:

Ireland: 76% (2000, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Italy: 83% (2003, ISTAT)
Spain: 83% (1999, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Hungary: "over 90%" (2002, source unclear)

Table 3.4 in Housing Statistics in the European Union 2003 provides figures as well.

That mantra of "highest home ownership in the world...everyone else in Europe rents" may have been true once, but it no longer is. Ireland really isn't that exceptional.

Kinetic^

HelterSkelter wrote:

Where is the apartment and where is the house?

Apartment (670sq ft) is in Park West and the house (1200sq ft + back garden) is (likely to be) in Kiltipper, as we like what we've seen up there.

HelterSkelter

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

Apartment (670sq ft) is in Park West and the house (1200sq ft + back garden) is (likely to be) in Kiltipper, as we like what we've seen up there.

Sounds good. Would much rather live in a house than an apartment.

Kinetic^

HelterSkelter wrote:

Sounds good. Would much rather live in a house than an apartment.

Yeah so would the gf and myself, but realistically we knew we had to get onto the ladder with something smaller and cheaper.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

The figures given are:

Ireland: 76% (2000, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Italy: 83% (2003, ISTAT)
Spain: 83% (1999, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Hungary: "over 90%" (2002, source unclear)

Table 3.4 in Housing Statistics in the European Union 2003 provides figures as well.

That mantra of "highest home ownership in the world...everyone else in Europe rents" may have been true once, but it no longer is. Ireland really isn't that exceptional.

Well The figures I put up are up to 2002 from the economist And while not all inclusive contradict what you are saying. Either way the point that Ireland has one of the highest home ownships in the western world with an increasing population stands. It is more likely that ireland homeownership rate will decrease. Italy has a reducing population and higher density especially in the urban environment.

I never used that mantra myself but there is some truth in it.

I looked at your second table and and it contradicts what you are saying in the other information. I think it is safe to say we are at the higher level and the other countries close to us are not fabulously wealthy. If you look up the CSO figure you will see vacant houses decrease when the economy is not doing well. So when there is less money more people own. I think it is a common economic "rule" but I am not sure

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

Well The figures I put up are up to 2002

They're not, you know. They are from 2000...

FillSpectre wrote:

Either way the point that Ireland has one of the highest home ownships in the western world with an increasing population stands.

No-one said it didn't. What you said was:

FillSpectre wrote:

Currently Ireland has the highest homeownership in the world.

which is incorrect. I don't expect you to acknowledge that, of course.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

which is incorrect. I don't expect you to acknowledge that, of course.

I did acknowledge it in my first reply. "I stand corrected" means I accept I am not right.

Source: Economist, 30 March 2002, and Euromonitor for 2000. Which means the figures are from 2002.

I have therfore corrected myself and restated the main point I was making. Homeowneship in Ireland is likely to decrease to match to be closer to the rest of the world IMHO.

THere are no accurate figures was another point I have hinted and becasue I didn't need to state it.

Elessar

Seeing as it's increasingly likely I will be working freelance or even self employed at some point, I won't be able to afford a house, or even get a mortgage, ever.

I'm not bothered though, being an only child, living at home is great and I plan on staying here as long as possible, and I know I'll eventually get the house.

tallus

Bought my house 10 years ago just before the market went mad for 41,500 punts It's only a 2 up 2 down semi-d but it's mine

New_Departure06

If you want a truly affordable house then maybe you should look outside Dublin. I was relieved to find an apartment for €98,000 2.5 years ago in Wexford town. Maybe if you work in Dublin you can live outside it and commute.

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

I did acknowledge it in my first reply. "I stand corrected" means I accept I am not right.

Sorry, I didn't see that (still can't, in fact).

FillSpectre wrote:

Source: Economist, 30 March 2002, and Euromonitor for 2000. Which means the figures are from 2002.

So the Economist was able to produce figures for 2002 in March 2002? Very impressive. Your link quite clearly states under "definition" that the data is from 2000.

I have no particular interest in rates of home ownership in Ireland. What I am getting at is that you asserted that Ireland is in some way exceptional with regard to home ownership. That is not the case.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

Sorry, I didn't see that (still can't, in fact).

Post #13

utopian wrote:

So the Economist was able to produce figures for 2002 in March 2002? Very impressive. Your link quite clearly states under "definition" that the data is from 2000.

No the data was compiled in 2002 the figures are from 2002 for 2000. If you don't get how that works or the logic I'm sorry. No need to be smart about it.

utopian wrote:

I have no particular interest in rates of home ownership in Ireland. What I am getting at is that you asserted that Ireland is in some way exceptional with regard to home ownership. That is not the case.

I am pointing out it is exceptional as the population is increasing we have a thriving economy and high ownership. Spain not doing so good, higher density and migration outwards. Italy has a decreasing poulation and poor economics. We are exceptional IMHO. It is a combination of things not just the ownsership. I am just saying the ownship figure is likely to move. You don't have to agree with me but you aren't picking up what I am saying.

The former soviet states are also diffenrent due to the social housing model prior to independence. I beleive this figure will also drop in time to match a more western norm.

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

No the data was compiled in 2002 the figures are from 2002 for 2000. If you don't get how that works or the logic I'm sorry. No need to be smart about it.

I am not trying to be smart. All the dates I quoted earlier were data dates. Publication dates were 2003-2005. I was confused because you implied that the Economist figures were in some way more current (which they aren't).

So we are agreed that the latest figures show Ireland not to have the highest rates of home ownership in Europe.

FillSpectre wrote:

You don't have to agree with me but you aren't picking up what I am saying.

Perhaps not. I have frequently come across people who justify the current housing boom on the basis that Irish people, unlike other Europeans, have to own a house. I thought you were using a variation of that argument.

Personally, I had always accepted that Ireland was exceptional with regard to home ownership. I'm surprised by those figures.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

So we are agreed that the latest figures show Ireland not to have the highest rates of home ownership in Europe.

I am saying all the various different data contradicts itself and it is not really possible to get a truely accurate figure. Ireland being at the higher level compared to the average to me suggests this figure will drop closer to average. If you look at the other countries close in the ownership rate you will see that we are exceptional becasue we are making money an increasing the population.

utopian wrote:

Perhaps not. I have frequently come across people who justify the current housing boom on the basis that Irish people, unlike other Europeans, have to own a house. I thought you were using a variation of that argument.

But I didn't say that

utopian wrote:

Personally, I had always accepted that Ireland was exceptional with regard to home ownership. I'm surprised by those figures.

We are exceptional based on all details. AS far as I can make out the countires that make money have lower home ownership and those doing baddly have high home ownership.

People often say things aren't better her becasue in the 80s their parents could buy on one salary etc... My point being people staying with jobs could afford homes or the state gave them away free due to little money. WHen things are good prices go up more people and less houses.

Terry

Elessar wrote:

Seeing as it's increasingly likely I will be working freelance or even self employed at some point, I won't be able to afford a house, or even get a mortgage, ever.

I'm not bothered though, being an only child, living at home is great and I plan on staying here as long as possible, and I know I'll eventually get the house.

indeed. thank god for inheritance.

i know that i would never be able to afford a house on my own. luckily enough my parents had the foresight to buy the one i'm in before they died.

most of my friends work in the Dublin area, but have bought houses well outside Dublin. one went as far as edenderry and many have moved to kinnegad and mullingar.

i live in a modest 3 bed terraced council house that is valued at €300,000 and it's far from special.


EDIT: utopian, fill spectre has already stated that he was mistaken. you can let it go now. thanks.

trillianv

The house prices here are ridiculous. I will probably have to go back to America to buy a house, but not for a few more years. I can get a 4 bedroom house, 2100 sq feet on a 1/2 acre plot for $160,000 in my hometown. Now, granted it is very rural and there are areas where I could not afford a house (i.e. San Francisco, Seattle, etc.) but for the most part houses are much more affordable back there than here. Not to mention the cost of living is much better and I was being paid almost twice there what I get here. But we stay as my husband is Irish.

chigli

In London, most people who work in the city don't leave anywhere near - most generally commute for at least an hour. Now they have a better (and more regular) transport system than Dublin has.

I don't understand why so many people (especially FTB) think that they must buy in Dublin - they would be better off buying in Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Kildare etc and getting the usual reliable train services ...

You would get a better quality of house for less money and your commuting time wouldn't be that different. It probably takes at most 1.5 hours to get from any of those counties to Dublin city centre in rush hour - probably better off than living in the 'burbs in Dublin and spending that on the bus each morning and evening ...

trillianv

chigli wrote:

I don't understand why so many people (especially FTB) think that they must buy in Dublin - they would be better off buying in Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Kildare etc and getting the usual reliable train services ...

Don't move to Navan if you want to get the train to work....still no train service here and the bus can take anywhere from an hour to 2.5 (yes it really did!) to city centre. But Drogheda could be a viable option for easy transport in and out of Dublin.

Or wait til 2010 when it has been said the train service will be up and running....holding my breath