Rude Irish Rail or CIE Staff

jjbrien

i was in Coolmine station on Saturday and again I was greeted by a very rude felow how has been employed at Coolmine for years, He hates customers he is very short tempored. If you complain to him he goes into a rant and loose his coll. Why doesnt Irish Rail get rid of the old bad tempred staff like this and get people who care. There is one or two likw this in Connolly, Tara St AND Pearse also.

road_high

jjbrien wrote:

i was in Coolmine station on Saturday and again I was greeted by a very rude felow how has been employed at Coolmine for years, He hates customers he is very short tempored. If you complain to him he goes into a rant and loose his coll. Why doesnt Irish Rail get rid of the old bad tempred staff like this and get people who care. There is one or two likw this in Connolly, Tara St AND Pearse also.

Personnally I would sack half of IE's staff and privatise the lot. These 'workers' see the customer mostly as an inconvenience, probabaly because even if there were no customers at all they'd still be in a job.
This is the same in all the semi-states. There is no fleixbility in work practices, zero tolerance for change and constant (and I would say almost obseesive) union interference in the workplace.

jhegarty

jjbrien wrote:

Why doesnt Irish Rail get rid of the old bad tempred staff like this

unions.....

MarkoP11

There is a job for life manta in Irish Rail, once in it appears the risk of industrial unrest is enough to hold management up, how many times have we had to put up with a strike of some kind due to a disciplinary matter?

Of course the management don't want to know, try to find the name of the person responsible for anything and you will draw a blank. Who is the manager of the DART service? I know but surely the 26 million passengers per year should be able to find out. If you don't know who to complain to you will give up. Do complain, the immediate superior of staff in Coolmine is Arthur Candlish, Station Manager (what happened to station master?), Maynooth Station.

To be fair there are some very decent members of staff out there who are helpful and honest, problem is they appear to be in the minority. Having spoken to many its clear they are left in the dark by management and find themselves in a powerless position, they don't appear to have any customer service training and supervision and leadership from management is lacking

Privistation will solve nothing since you still have the same front line staff and same junior and middle management, given the nature of the service provided the strike remains a powerful weapon since many of the jobs are safety critical and require months if not years training, several booking office staff hold signalling certificates in case the central computer system dies

Red Alert

Civility costs nothing. Where I work the management are always quick to complement someone if they're helping customers - I find being in good humor and being nice to the public makes the work day go quicker too.

Victor

mfitzy wrote:

Personnally I would sack half of IE's staff and privatise the lot.

So, what you you do about surly shop and fast food staff?

shltter

Victor wrote:

So, what you you do about surly shop and fast food staff?

Or indeed the bastion of capitalism Ryanair there is a long thread here complaining about ryanair staff which does not recognise unions and is not a semi state and last I heard Micheal was not offering so called jobs for life.

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

So, what you you do about surly shop and fast food staff?

You go up the street to another shop or fast food outlet were the staff are professional and polite. The problems with IE is there is no other railway company to go to unless you live near a Luas line.

However the most common method of dealing with unprofessional and rude CIE rail union staff is to buy a car and drive to work.

The most successful Private Motorcar Ownership lobbying ever done in this history of this state has always been the behaviour of the CIE unions. They have done more to futher car communting and road congestion and put people off public transport than any other organisation.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

You go up the street to another shop or fast food outlet were the staff are professional and polite.

The problems with IE is there is no other railway company to go to unless you live near a Luas line.

Yes how long have LUAS being running trains to cork now:rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

shltter wrote:

Yes how long have LUAS being running trains to cork now:rolleyes:

That's the point my dear armchair socialist radical. I suspect most people reading my post above are intelligent to get what I was saying. It's not my fault that readers of the Socialist Worker do not understand ironic commentary.

Notice how you completely ignored my point that the collective behaviour of the CIE unions over the decades has been a major factor in the bad reputation which public transport in Ireland has among people who just want to be able to get to work and back.

How many people who encountered this fellow at Coolmine station over the years ended up driving to work because of him... Now multiple that by other CIE employees like him all over the country... It's not pretty, is it. And that does not include the staggering number of CIE strikes through the decades and the tens of thousands of extra car commuters these strikes gave birth to. The Motor Dealers Assocation of Ireland really should be giving lifetime achievement awards to the like to Tony Tobin, Brendan Ogle and Deco at Coolmine for the thousands of cars they have sold thanks to them.

I have met in my life, and off the top of my head, about 10 Dubliners who gave up on public transport for life and drove to work even when they WANTED to use public transport simply because of the obnoxious and unprofessional behaviour of some CIE employees like the rude fellow at Coolmine, and other unprofessional carry-on such as two buses stopping and the drivers having a chat right in the middle of rush hour.

Do you have any idea how these little CIE union idiosyncratic cultural manifestation has added up to massive lack of faith in public transport in Ireland and thereby increased private car commuting?

But if you want to make smug comments about me thinking the Luas goes to Cork in order to distract from valid criticism of a certain obnoxious culture within CIE unions then by all means do. It's not going to change what I am hundreds of thousads of other Irish people know to be the truth.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

That's the point my dear armchair socialist radical. I suspect most people reading my post above are intelligent to get what I was saying. It's not my fault that readers of the Socialist Worker do not understand ironic commentary.

Notice how you completely ignored my point that the collective behaviour of the CIE unions over the decades has been a major factor in the bad reputation which public transport in Ireland has among people who just want to be able to get to work and back.

How many people who encountered this fellow at Coolmine station over the years ended up driving to work because of him... Now multiple that by other CIE employees like him all over the country... It's not pretty, is it. And that does not include the staggering number of CIE strikes through the decades and the tens of thousands of extra car commuters these strikes gave birth to. The Motor Dealers Assocation of Ireland really should be giving lifetime achievement awards to the like to Tony Tobin, Brendan Ogle and Deco at Coolmine for the thousands of cars they have sold thanks to them.

I have met in my life, and off the top of my head, about 10 Dubliners who gave up on public transport for life and drove to work even when they WANTED to use public transport simply because of the obnoxious and unprofessional behaviour of some CIE employees like the rude fellow at Coolmine, and other unprofessional carry-on such as two buses stopping and the drivers having a chat right in the middle of rush hour.

Do you have any idea how these little CIE union idiosyncratic cultural manifestation has added up to massive lack of faith in public transport in Ireland and thereby increased private car commuting?

But if you want to make smug comments about me thinking the Luas goes to Cork in order to distract from valid criticism of a certain obnoxious culture within CIE unions then by all means do. It's not going to change what I am hundreds of thousads of other Irish people know to be the truth.

So if the unions are the reason why some people in IE are obnoxius then how come some people in Ryanair are obnoxious and they dont recognise Unions.

Could it be that some people are just obnoxious whether they work for a semi state or a private company whether they are in a Union or not. No it could not be that simple.

Metrobest

You miss the fundamental point. You have a choice about which airline you fly with. For the train, you don't. Passengers' impressions of the staff is therefore crucial.

I took a train in Australia last week - a humble diesel train just like in Ireland. (Originally built to "Irish" gauge, incidentally.) But it was like two different worlds as staff chatted to passengers, the train manager made sure everyone was comfortable, annoucements were made professionally and competently, and the most sincere apology was made when the train arrived late. It was nothing like Germany or Holland, but it was light years ahead of CIE. Had the staff been as rude/unprofessional as what is commonly found in CIE, my impression would have been much, much different.

I used to take the train from Coolmine station in the days when there was no "fancy" station building.

I never had any dealings with the staff there because they never liked to talk to their passengers, apologise for delays, make annoucements, etc. Their sole function, it seemed, was to sit there in their Portakabin wearing fleourescent orange jackets while passengers paced up and down on the platform waiting for the 8.20am train that always came ten minutes late with nary an announcement.

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

You miss the fundamental point. You have a choice about which airline you fly with. For the train, you don't. Passengers' impressions of the staff is therefore crucial.

I took a train in Australia last week - a humble diesel train just like in Ireland. (Originally built to "Irish" gauge, incidentally.) But it was like two different worlds as staff chatted to passengers, the train manager made sure everyone was comfortable, annoucements were made professionally and competently, and the most sincere apology was made when the train arrived late. It was nothing like Germany or Holland, but it was light years ahead of CIE. Had the staff been as rude/unprofessional as what is commonly found in CIE, my impression would have been much, much different.

I used to take the train from Coolmine station in the days when there was no "fancy" station building.

I never had any dealings with the staff there because they never liked to talk to their passengers, apologise for delays, make annoucements, etc. Their sole function, it seemed, was to sit there in their Portakabin wearing fleourescent orange jackets while passengers paced up and down on the platform waiting for the 8.20am train that always came ten minutes late with nary an announcement.

You miss my point rude people are not the preserve of CIE they are everywhere they do not just exist because CIE exists. The theory that these people are rude because of unions or semi states is bull**** as the example of Ryanair proves it would seem to me that poor management that does not value its customers allows rudeness to persist whether it is in Ryanair or CIE.


As to the point on using other airlines that is not always true it depends on where you want/need to go.

Metrobest

You're right - staff motivation is crucial.

Problem is, there has always been a diseased culture in Irish Rail. People joined the company because they were of a "railway family" or because they wanted a job where they could take it easy.

There was never a desire to deliver a first class service to the people of Ireland. And it shows today.

popebenny16

Well i for one have noticed that 100% of the time it is the IE or BAC staff who are rude whenever i'm on a bus or train. I think we should give these shop assistants and other rude people a chance.

Also, I met a very rude Australian once, and he looked like he worked on a railway. Just goes to show, you never can tell, can you?

Alun

Well, there's rudeness and there's rudeness.

The Ryanair style of rudeness I've come across, I'd classify more as downright stubborn "sticking to the rules" and refusing to actually enter into any kind of dialogue about what might be fair or reasonable, however ridiculous or idiotic those rules might be. No doubt the reason for this is because they're afraid of losing their jobs if they're seen to be bending the rules even a little tiny bit. I can have a limited amount of empathy with these people, even if I might disagree with the company policy they're reluctantly being forced to implement.

The CIE style of rudeness is another thing altogether, and is more a general air of "couldn't give a ****" surliness that is born out of the knowledge that pretty much whatever they do, or even don't do, they can't be touched for it.

YoYOPowder

I have to say I’ve had numerous issues with Irish rail, between late trains, rude staff, strikes, communication and the lack of it. Their management, staff, attitude and methods is archaic and appalling. I've complained at least three times through their website and once at the Customer Services Desk never to hear anything back, in fact I can remember their CS staff being totally ignorant also. Yes, there is some very nice staff but their negatives far outweigh their positives IMO. I think a combination of unions, staff and management are to blame. I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but the latest problems seem to be an increase in trains not able to get a free platform in Heuston, but we are increasing the amount of trains. I can’t see a resolution to Irish Rail in the near future, i.e. 10 years. Privatisation and Competition are the only answers in my view to its shambolic state, but unfortunately if that were to start tomorrow, there are no quick fixes either.
Once the N7 upgrade is completed I’m finished with Irish Rail for good.

shltter

Alun wrote:

Well, there's rudeness and there's rudeness.

The Ryanair style of rudeness I've come across, I'd classify more as downright stubborn "sticking to the rules" and refusing to actually enter into any kind of dialogue about what might be fair or reasonable, however ridiculous or idiotic those rules might be. No doubt the reason for this is because they're afraid of losing their jobs if they're seen to be bending the rules even a little tiny bit. I can have a limited amount of empathy with these people, even if I might disagree with the company policy they're reluctantly being forced to implement.

The CIE style of rudeness is another thing altogether, and is more a general air of "couldn't give a ****" surliness that is born out of the knowledge that pretty much whatever they do, or even don't do, they can't be touched for it.

Ah right it is a special type of rudeness :rolleyes:


In my experience the culture that exists within a company is largely determined by the management. Ryanair staff feel able to treat people rudely because it comes from the top down. The same is the situation in IE if the management of the particular station can not be bothered to make an announcement of a delay or indeed inform their own staff that attitude becomes pervasive. As to who owns the company it makes little difference.


And there is a lot that can be done to rude IE staff as there is a lot that could be done to ryanair staff however the atitude is a reflection of the atitude of the management to its staff and customers

YoYOPowder

Alun wrote:

Well, there's rudeness and there's rudeness.

The Ryanair style of rudeness I've come across, I'd classify more as downright stubborn "sticking to the rules" and refusing to actually enter into any kind of dialogue about what might be fair or reasonable, however ridiculous or idiotic those rules might be. No doubt the reason for this is because they're afraid of losing their jobs if they're seen to be bending the rules even a little tiny bit. I can have a limited amount of empathy with these people, even if I might disagree with the company policy they're reluctantly being forced to implement.

The CIE style of rudeness is another thing altogether, and is more a general air of "couldn't give a ****" surliness that is born out of the knowledge that pretty much whatever they do, or even don't do, they can't be touched for it.

Agreed

Brian Capture

jjbrien wrote:

i was in Coolmine station on Saturday and again I was greeted by a very rude felow how has been employed at Coolmine for years,

Is he a Winston Churchill?

(working class)

shltter

jjbrien wrote:

Irish rail is a monoply its not like Ryanair its a public service. With Ryanair is you dont like them you can fly another company. With IE there is no choice. The staff realise this and then dont care. Unions are to blame for this. You dont see Aer Lingus staff behaving in this mannor and they are a state company with unions just like Irish Rail.

Ryanair is a monopoly if you want to fly to a particular Airport.

If you want to fly for example Dublin to London Stansted or Glasgow Prestwick and dont like Ryanair what are your options.

So you are suggesting that the unions in IE are encouraging their members to be rude to customers of the company question why would they do that what possible purpose would it serve the Trade Union movement to encourage its members to be rude to customers many of whom may also be trade union members.

This is just the usual lazy anti trade union bull**** that is very prevalent on this forum. The fact of the matter is that Management largely set the tone for the culture within an organisation if that culture allows and tolerates rudeness that is a management issue just as it is in Ryanair.
Ryanair management smacks of arrogance with anyone they deal with whether it is their own customers, competitors, or Government ministers that seeps throughout the organisation right down to check in staff.

IE management has a complete disregard for its customers or whether they are discommoded this can be seen in the lack of announcements when trains are late it can also be seen for example when management provoke industrial action with no tought for its customers. That atitude seeps through the organisation basically if management dont care I dont care.

_Kaiser_

Oh so because management don't stand over the staff like children (which if they did of course, the unions would be up in arms about), it's somehow ok then to treat customers like some of them do.. is that what you're saying?

What about behaving like an adult and taking responsibility for your own behaviour and performance? Or is that just one of those "mad" ideas that only works in the private sector?? :rolleyes:

Metrobest

shltter wrote:

You miss my point rude people are not the preserve of CIE they are everywhere they do not just exist because CIE exists. The theory that these people are rude because of unions or semi states is bull**** as the example of Ryanair proves it would seem to me that poor management that does not value its customers allows rudeness to persist whether it is in Ryanair or CIE.


As to the point on using other airlines that is not always true it depends on where you want/need to go.

You do have a point about management, albeit misguided. Management style shapes the direction and culture of an organisation. Ryanair staff for the most part are hardworking and efficient, friendly but businesslike. They believe in the company and they know that they contribute to its success.

One accusation you cannot level at Ryanair is that its staff are lazy, braindead, jobs for lifers, trade union chancers, or 9-5 clock punchers. Unfortunately, those tags are all too easily attached to a description of the typical CIE employee. And that's a shame.

There is a management vacuum in CIE generally. Weak management has spawned a dysfunction
al culture where employees hate their jobs, hate the customers who pay their wages, and hate the company that employs them. In such a climate, little wonder that customers are the ones who lose out.

Okay, so what needs to be done? I think the long term goal should be disbanding CIE, franchising out key routes to private consortia, and a complete overhaul of the Irish Rail management structure.

The entire organisation needs to restructured and goals needs to be identified, opportunities seized.

CIE "front line" employees should all be sent on a (paid) half-day training course in customer service including how to make a professional announcement over the tannoy and made sign a form that they are satisfied with this training. Once this process is complete, CIE should commission a mystery shopping agency to analyse customer service performance. This performance would be tracked on monthly basis and any wage increases withheld if targets are not met. That'd send shivers up the unions hairy spines!

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Oh so because management don't stand over the staff like children (which if they did of course, the unions would be up in arms about), it's somehow ok then to treat customers like some of them do.. is that what you're saying?

What about behaving like an adult and taking responsibility for your own behaviour and performance? Or is that just one of those "mad" ideas that only works in the private sector?? :rolleyes:

No it is up to the management to manage the company the company has rules that deal with how employees behave.
Employees are responsible for their individual behaviour if that is not up to scratch it is the managements job to deal with those employees not let them infect the entire company with their atitude. Failure to deal with that atitude and in fact leading by example with a bad atitude.
Individual employees will not discipline or sack themselves for doing a bad job that is the job of management.
However it is hard to believe that a management that does not have the coutesy to announce to its customers that a delay has occurred actually gives a ****

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

You do have a point about management, albeit misguided. Management style shapes the direction and culture of an organisation. Ryanair staff for the most part are hardworking and efficient, friendly but businesslike. They believe in the company and they know that they contribute to its success.

One accusation you cannot level at Ryanair is that its staff are lazy, braindead, jobs for lifers, trade union chancers, or 9-5 clock punchers. Unfortunately, those tags are all too easily attached to a description of the typical CIE employee. And that's a shame.

There is a management vacuum in CIE generally. Weak management has spawned a dysfunction
al culture where employees hate their jobs, hate the customers who pay their wages, and hate the company that employs them. In such a climate, little wonder that customers are the ones who lose out.

Okay, so what needs to be done? I think the long term goal should be disbanding CIE, franchising out key routes to private consortia, and a complete overhaul of the Irish Rail management structure.

The entire organisation needs to restructured and goals needs to be identified, opportunities seized.

CIE "front line" employees should all be sent on a (paid) half-day training course in customer service including how to make a professional announcement over the tannoy and made sign a form that they are satisfied with this training. Once this process is complete, CIE should commission a mystery shopping agency to analyse customer service performance. This performance would be tracked on monthly basis and any wage increases withheld if targets are not met. That'd send shivers up the unions hairy spines!

I would not accept that description of CIE employees In the main the vast majority of CIE employees are hardworking intelligent diligent people there are however some who are not the failure of management is in dealing with those people.
DB last year brought in consultants to do basically what you suggested they went to all the locations and met all the staff their opinion at the end of that process was that about 5% of employees should just not be there and that the 95% were as I described. The main problem they identified were with a dysfunctional management that in a lot of cases seemed to be marking time till retirement. In fairness DB has had a bit of a shake up of its management in the last year but it is a bit early to tell how successful that is going to be some of it has the appearance of moving the deck chairs.

Hagar

Why do people try to differentiate between staff and management? Are they not both employees of the same company? Have not many of the management come up through the ranks over time and carried their attitude/work ethic with them?

MiniD

I use Dublin Bus and Luas every day, and usually the staff are both friendly and professional, yes I have had bad examples, infact one or two horrendous experiences, but usually the customer service is okay. I had reason to use the Dart for two months last year and I was shocked by the sheer incompetence of some of it's staff. At the station I was using there was one guy who was so nice and professional, it was great. This employee always smiled and offered assistance without any problems, the sort of worker any employer would love to have in their workforce. Unfortunately the rest of the Irish Rail employees I encountered were terrible. When this guy was off, the other worker at this station made no eye contact with me, on one occasion I needed advice on a ticket, he offered me no help and told me to ask at Connolly. At Connolly I was again met by staff who had no interest in helping me. Also at Connolly, I observed daily the staff who collected your ticket as you leave the platform, some staff would say thank you while others would be busy chatting to a colleague or simply look the other way. On one occasion at Connolly I wanted to buy a Dublin Bus ticket and thought I would try the ticket sales office, on the chance they might want to promote integrated transport. When I got to the counter I met a girl who told me this was a train station, I said I was aware of that but wanted to know if they sold bus tickets, again she told me this was a train station and I should try Bus Aras across the road. Thankfully I have had not needed to use the Dart since.

Bad customer service is something I really hate. Where I work, I make a point of being polite and professional to all customers I deal with, it's what I'm paid to do. Also, I know if I was not professional, my boss would simply not tolerate it.

jjbrien

Most people on this post are referring to Ryanair as being the same type of company as Irish Rail. This is not the case. Irish Rail is a publicly owned company which is supposed to be run for us the public. We are the share holders of Irish Rail. So we should expect better from it.

Bad customer service is not excusable. Management at IE are afraid of disciplining staff. There are some very nice IE staff out there and they should be rewarded for it. If I bad mouth a customer in my job I would get the sack. The same should apply for IE staff.

shltter

jjbrien wrote:

. If I bad mouth a customer in my job I would get the sack. The same should apply for IE staff.

Exactly

shltter

Hagar wrote:

Why do people try to differentiate between staff and management? Are they not both employees of the same company? Have not many of the management come up through the ranks over time and carried their attitude/work ethic with them?

Because management are there to manage the company not just to take extra wages and improved pension and wait for retirement.
Unfortunately in CIE in the past particularly there was a tendency to promote troublesome employees rather than deal with them some of these guys are still around.

I will give you an example I once heard a direct supervisor speaking on the phone to a customer making a complaint I dont know what the customer was saying but it ended with the supervisor telling the customer to **** off and hanging up the phone. The phone rang back and he repeated his previous advice and hung up again. That guy has since been promoted.
Now do you think I would take seriously a reprimand from this guy or would I say what about the day........
That is what I mean about management setting a culture in which rudeness is not just tolerated but almost sugggested as a way of dealing with customers.

parsi

jjbrien wrote:

. Why doesnt Irish Rail get rid of the old bad tempred staff like this and get people who care..

They move to Ryanair maybe ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054945359