A perspective on the news that Islamophobia on the rise in Ireland

juslookin

I was interested to see recent headlines stating that "Islamophobia was on the rise" in Ireland.

There were no actual examples mind you, stories stating in black and white that "Incidences of anti-Muslim abuse are on the rise in Ireland" and that "Physical and verbal abuse against Muslims in Ireland is on the rise" that didn't give any actual examples were good enough. The media know that a while "prejudice" is wrong, a "good prejudice" the Irish are racist and minorities are innocent unpolicised victims with no political agendas is OK, so there is no need to investigate.

All right minded people should say "Down with that sort of thing" and so we don't need any evidence.

Because according to the Equality Authority, "negative portrayals of Muslims in the media are leading to more attacks. A number of famous Muslim writers and actors are spoke about Islamophobia in Dublin in a conference organised by the Equality Authority to raise the profile of the issue. Chief Executive Neil Crowley said, Xenophobia is a global phenomenon so we would be foolish to think we were exempt from it.”

While "Islamophobia" is very very bad and very very sad, completley unsubstantiated reports of it, while regrettable, are useful to some, such as "community leaders" and their political groups who may wish to force their intertwined religious/political agendas in their new homes.

In the UK we hear a lot in about the "Rise" of "Islamophobia", from groups like MPAC, the MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, who have political objectives.

Because its a "bad thing", groups like MPAC provide figures which the BBC , the Guardian et al don't bother to challenge.

Have a look at this;

An example of a "Horrific Attack", a "Hijab Attack" with "Racism" and "Islamophobia" on a "Hijab Sister"

MPAC encouraging Muslims to protest about.

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2222/1/

AND THIS

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=10949&page=1&pp=20

It's chock full of unsubstantiated, evidence free accusations, of "Islamophobia", "Racism" and a "Hajib Attack".

But this is the sort of thing that UK media and establishment takes seriously. You'll notice how it encourages Muslims to contact the media and the train company, to generally "make noise" about this "Islamophobia".

The UK's a lost cause now, but Ireland is next in line for the great Caliphate, perhaps next time you read about "a "rise" of "Islamophobia" in Ireland", or see a "Community Leader" on TV demanding their political objectives based on this claim, ask questions, who is providing the figures, what evidence they are providing the figures on, and what they stand to gain from making the claims.

Dirk Gently

Did you not just contribute to Islamophobia by implying that claims made by Muslims about injustice are only meant to manipulate the public in order for them to achieve political aims? Does your suggestion that the UK is a lost cause and that Ireland is next not add to the misconceptions about Muslims.

Are you not in fact a pot calling a kettle black?

InFront

juslookin wrote:

The UK's a lost cause now, but Ireland is next in line for the great Caliphate, perhaps next time you read about "a "rise" of "Islamophobia" in Ireland", or see a "Community Leader" on TV demanding their political objectives based on this claim, ask questions, who is providing the figures, what evidence they are providing the figures on, and what they stand to gain from making the claims.

I agree with you that figures probably go unsubstantitaed some of the time, but how do you know the Guardian, for example, dont verify them?

As a Muslim in Dublin (or my parents would argue just someone with a muslim background:rolleyes: )Id have to agree that Muslim taunts are something which I began to experience for the first time since September 11th, and I mean that literally. I do not remember ever receiving underbreath comments or jeering before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and the American invasions.

But its the usual suspects, kids (not just boys) aged 15 - 18, ignorant bus conductors, that type of thing.

Anyway Id agree we should substantiate figures, but I wouldnt say, just from personal experiences, that the term 'rise of islamophobia' is incorrect. Its definitely on the increase, whatever the extent.
Of course discrimination is also prevalent against other minority groups, and whether they are also experiencing a rise in racial abuse as well, I dont know. Overall Dublin is a quite amiable place despite what the political commentators sometimes say. It shouldnt happen in the first place, but you just cant explode at every snide or ignorant comment you hear.

projectmayhem

you've never met an asian dude before, you say hi and he kicks you in the nuts. next time you meet an asian dude, you'd turn sideways before saying a word to him...

some irish guys blow some cars up in the UK, you (an irish person) goes to the UK, you should probably expect some taunting and trouble.

a bunch of muslims fly planes into some buildings in america... if you're a muslim, you should probably expect some ****.

it's not fair, it's racist and simply just not moral, and wrong. but it's going to happen, and you can't do anything about it except ride it out until it dies down. it will die down, but it will take quite some time.

ChityWest

Irish people have always (and still do) have to deal with that crap in the uk - most just put their head down and get on with it. Not the end of the world. I totally reject the idea that muslims in Ireland have it worse than Irish people who have lived in the uk.

InFront

ChityWest wrote:

I totally reject the idea that muslims in Ireland have it worse than Irish people who have lived in the uk.

But who has said that... ever? Perosnally I think that the Irish living in London in the 80s had it worse than Muslims in Ireland today. England probably different.

ChityWest

InFront wrote:

But who has said that... ever? Perosnally I think that the Irish living in London in the 80s had it worse than Muslims in Ireland today. England probably different.

I dont think it was or is limited to the 80's or 90's either for that matter. Prejudice runs deep - especially in england and particularly regarding the Irish (imo) - and you can either make a huge song and dance about it - or you can ignore it & get on with it.

HelterSkelter

ChityWest wrote:

I dont think it was or is limited to the 80's or 90's either for that matter. Prejudice runs deep - especially in england and particularly regarding the Irish (imo) - and you can either make a huge song and dance about it - or you can ignore it & get on with it.

I have never come accross this with English people, they are always nice and polite to me.

juslookin

clown bag wrote:

Did you not just contribute to Islamophobia by implying that claims made by Muslims about injustice are only meant to manipulate the public in order for them to achieve political aims? Does your suggestion that the UK is a lost cause and that Ireland is next not add to the misconceptions about Muslims.

Are you not in fact a pot calling a kettle black?

No, I did not contribute to "Islamophobia", although I certainly was sarcastic.

I didn't suggest that claims made about Islamophobia are only meant to manipulate the public.

I gave an example.

You can choose whether to educate yourself or not to the realities of the growth in Islam, what this means in the UK and what it could mean for Ireland.

And you can choose whether the thousands who fought and died for self determination of who they imagined the Irish people were, will ultimately pale compared to a politically correct media and the ability of various groups to manipulate it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Seconded. But getting back on topic...

...another one is child-snatching. Soething along the lines of an abduction was attempted (and always foiled) somewhere in the West Dublin area (or "Muster") on two girls aged between 10-13. Sunday World did it at least once.

You just know it never bloody happened.

ChityWest

HelterSkelter wrote:

I have never come accross this with English people, they are always nice and polite to me.

I agree that 99.9% of them are absolutely fine and some of the soundest most decent people I know are english - having said that I did get a bottle across the eye socket in glasgow for having an irish accent (within less than an hour of arriving) and a knife pulled on me in london one day after a bomb went off. So theres probably an element of luck of the draw going on there. I think living in a navy or a squaddie-filled town may be a different sort of experience, prejudice wise. I still dont see prejudice against muslims in ireland is worse than anti-irish sentiment among some people in britain.

I do think though that if the day ever came when islamic-group bombs were to go off in Ireland we would probably be 100 times worse than the english were to the irish.

InFront

You can choose whether to educate yourself or not to the realities of the growth in Islam, what this means in the UK and what it could mean for Ireland.

What could it mean for Ireland/ UK compared to the influx or Eastern Europeans/ Northern Asians/ Africans???

Also, youre afraid that the rise in Islamic hatred will somehow pull a curtain over the Irish struggle for Independence? Read your post again, maybe you meant something different? Its not a competition man!

Hobbes

To the OP. You do know you can write or phone the newspaper in question and ask for the sources as to where they got the information from.

However comments like this speak volumes.

The media know that a while "prejudice" is wrong, a "good prejudice" the Irish are racist and minorities are innocent unpolicised victims with no political agendas is OK, so there is no need to investigate.

The majority of Muslims in Ireland are Irish citizens. So trying to lump them as something seperate to society to begin with is showing some prejudice.

HelterSkelter

Hobbes wrote:

The majority of Muslims in Ireland are Irish citizens

Where did you get this from? Not disagreeing with you, just interested in your source.

juslookin

Bad choice of Grammar, but you even you knew I meant those of indiginous Irish heritage, rather than immigrated Irish.

Hobbes

HelterSkelter wrote:

Where did you get this from? Not disagreeing with you, just interested in your source.

You can get the stats from the islamireland.ie however I would like to see the latest results from the CSO. They should be due out next month.

juslookin wrote:

Bad choice of Grammar, but you even you knew I meant those of indiginous Irish heritage, rather than immigrated Irish.

Again with the prejudice. If your an Irish citizen it shouldn't matter where your elders came from. What if the muslim was born here? (Muslims have been recorded in the country since the 1950s).

The way you word it is that they are not part of our society to begin with.

HelterSkelter

Hobbes wrote:

You can get the stats from the islamireland.ie however I would like to see the latest results from the CSO. They should be due out next month.



Again with the prejudice. If your an Irish citizen it shouldn't matter where your elders came from. What if the muslim was born here? (Muslims have been recorded in the country since the 1950s).

The way you word it is that they are not part of our society to begin with.

I thought the CSO only stated the number of Muslims living in ireland. Does it state their citizenship as well?

Hobbes

HelterSkelter wrote:

I thought the CSO only stated the number of Muslims living in ireland. Does it state their citizenship as well?

It should do if they filled out the forms correctly.

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

The majority of Muslims in Ireland are Irish citizens.

I wonder if that is true any more? I very much doubt it, but as you said the census should tell us.

EDIT @OP - much of your post doesn't relate to Ireland or its pretty small population of muslims (thank God). What is your point?

juslookin

Hobbes wrote:

If your an Irish citizen it shouldn't matter where your elders came from.

The way you word it is that they are not part of our society to begin with.

I wonder if you are making the assumption that somebody that is classed as an Irish citizen considers themselves Irish ? They may not actually recognise your state.

Some people would actively agree they are not part of decadent Irish society in the first place and don't wish to be, or interact, even though they still wish to geographically remain.

InFront

juslookin wrote:

I wonder if you are making the assumption that somebody that is classed as an Irish citizen considers themselves Irish ? They may not actually recognise your state.

Some people would actively agree they are not part of decadent Irish society in the first place and don't wish to be, or interact, even though they still wish to geographically remain.

"Some people" this and that. Youre being as vague as the article you were originally complaining about. Have you ever met anyone that doesnt recognise the Irish state in your life? I cant imagine that makes up a lot of people anywhere! Furthermore have you met anyone who has "activley" agreed (however you can do that?) that they want to live here but not be part of society? I dont know anyone in that situation... it would be pretty hard to live here and not be part of society tbh.

What has any of it got to do with your topic?

The Sweeper

juslookin wrote:

The UK's a lost cause now, but Ireland is next in line for the great Caliphate, perhaps next time you read about "a "rise" of "Islamophobia" in Ireland", or see a "Community Leader" on TV demanding their political objectives based on this claim, ask questions, who is providing the figures, what evidence they are providing the figures on, and what they stand to gain from making the claims.

You know, I can't figure the tone of your argument. Is the UK a lost cause because they're anti Islam, or because they're letting Islamic leaders have a say in their media?

By the way, why's the Caliphate a bad thing?

Hobbes

Not sure why it was moved to Islam forum, better suited for Humanities.

Hobbes

juslookin wrote:

Some people would actively agree they are not part of decadent Irish society in the first place and don't wish to be, or interact, even though they still wish to geographically remain.

Are you one of "them" or speak for "them" ? Whoever "some people" are.

InFront

How many more times will it be moved or have you finished??

Hobbes

InFront wrote:

How many more times will it be moved or have you finished??

Don't tempt Amp.

Islam forum has strict rules, probably too restrictive to keep on talking like you are. Humanities will allow you to continue and get a better class of conversation beyond AH.

ChityWest

Hobbes wrote:

Humanities will allow you to continue and get a better class of conversation beyond AH.

I am feeling very prejudiced against by that remark.

Sesshoumaru

I myself feel that Muslims are crying wolf far too often and I object to the way they seem to want laws changed here in Europe to restrict freedom of speech. No critiscism of Islam is allowed it seems. Take the example of the writer in Italy who is being brought to court now because her book was critical of Islam.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0847827534/sr=8-1/qid=1150308765/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-5480578-1317607?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,1796161,00.html

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

A former war correspondent, Fallaci has frequently stirred debate with her views, which are largely based on the notion that Muslims are engaged in a plot to conquer Europe by immigration

hehehehe

ChityWest

She has been charged with violating a law that forbids defamatory statements about a religion acknowledged by the Italian state. The offence is punishable with a fine of up to €6,000 (£4,100).

The charge stems from a recent book, The Strength of Reason, one of a trilogy she has published since the September 11 attacks on the US. In the book, Fallaci, 77, is alleged to have made 18 blasphemous statements, including referring to Islam as "a pool that never purifies".

Adel Smith, head of the Italian Muslim Union, brought the lawsuit against her.

I think her immigration quote might not be indicative of what that trial is about The amazon link has some more info on her book than the guardian one;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0847827534/sr=8-1/qid=1150308765/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1192977-8308666?%5Fencoding=UTF8

juslookin

Despite a wealth of Polish immigration in Ireland, I don't see any specific concern about the issue of "Polophobia".

Despite a wealth of Nigerian immigration in Ireland, I don's see any specific concern about the issue of "Nigeraphobia".

I don't see specific initiatives for Kosovaphobia, or Albaniaphobia, or Angolaphobia, or Ghaniaphobia

Some people innocently relate their own religous beliefs to Islam as if it is simply a religious belief system.

Islam is not. It is arguably a harsh, intolerant political belief system, with an agenda to dominate and subdue. Often when followers of Islam find themselves in "new" socieities, they find that the majority belief system and its apparatus is not to their liking, and set about attempting to change that apparatus, specifically accomodate them.

"Concern" about "Islamophobia" has been productive for certain groups and organisations in pushing their agendas in a variety of regions.

Next time you hear about "Islamophobia", ask, who is making the claim, on what evidence are they making the claim, what do they stand to gain from making the claim ?

MPAC have been quite successful in pushing their agenda in the UK. See how they operate.

After the 7/7 bombs, MPAC used the situation to push superstitions and lies about "Islamophobia" and that "Headscarf Wearing Sisters were being attacked in the streets". It was almost as if the 52 who died had never happened.

If there is "Concern" about "Islamophobia" in Ireland, best you see how this can be a political tactic.

Victimhood can be productive.

juslookin

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You know, I can't figure the tone of your argument. Is the UK a lost cause because they're anti Islam, or because they're letting Islamic leaders have a say in their media?

By the way, why's the Caliphate a bad thing?

The UK is not anti Islam. It is incredibly, perhaps over pro-Islam for a secular and muliti faith, multi culture society.

The problem is that some Islamic organisations are forcing agendas on a variety of very dodgy tactics.

One is the "good cop" / "bad cop" of we can't be held responsible for terrorism.

Another is the propogation of "Islamophobia" myths.

The caliphate would see the Republic of Ireland under Sharia law. Goodbye guiness, goodbye the democracy you've achieved since 1916, goodbye Catholic and Protestant churches, goodbye the advances, rights and lifestyles Irish women have achieved since the 1980s. If you are unsure of whether it is a bad thing, I suggest maybe going to live in a sharia country for a while and then letting us have your opinion.

juslookin

InFront wrote:

"Some people" this and that. Youre being as vague as the article you were originally complaining about. Have you ever met anyone that doesnt recognise the Irish state in your life? I cant imagine that makes up a lot of people anywhere! Furthermore have you met anyone who has "activley" agreed (however you can do that?) that they want to live here but not be part of society? I dont know anyone in that situation... it would be pretty hard to live here and not be part of society tbh.

What has any of it got to do with your topic?

Some "British muslims" do no recognise the Irish state. They "do not recognise countries, only Allah".

There are a worrying number of individuals in Bolton, Leicester, Bradford and London who live geographically in those locations, yet do not wish to be part of British society, which they view as sinful, decadent and to be overthrown.

What this has to do with my original topic, is that some Islamic groups with specific agendas, are using the laws, fair play and weak media of their "host" nations, against them. One should observe how they operate, and remember this next time they hear the organisation propogating their positions and being taken seriously.

InFront

juslookin wrote:

Despite a wealth of Polish immigration in Ireland, I don't see any specific concern about the issue of "Polophobia".

Despite a wealth of Nigerian immigration in Ireland, I don's see any specific concern about the issue of "Nigeraphobia".

I don't see specific initiatives for Kosovaphobia, or Albaniaphobia, or Angolaphobia, or Ghaniaphobia

Its all called racism. Islamophobia is not due to immigration nor is any other type of racism. It is a term to describe a particular rise in one type of racism disproportionate to others - that which is against Muslims - particularly since the reise of Islamic extremism. What would you prefer it be called, or are you denying that it is increasing?

...Islam as if it is simply a religious belief system.

Islam is not. It is arguably a harsh, intolerant political belief system, with an agenda to dominate and subdue.

Do you know any Muslims who believe in their religion? Would you describe them as intolerant, or harsh with an intention to subdue and dominate? Or have you ever only seen us, from a safe distance, on TV?

Often when followers of Islam find themselves in "new" socieities, they find that the majority belief system and its apparatus is not to their liking, and set about attempting to change that apparatus, specifically accomodate them.

No, most Muslims do not. Maybe a tiny amount do, Ive never met them or heard of them. Everyone adapts to their environment and just gets on with it. Your suggestion is mere paranoia.

After the 7/7 bombs, MPAC used the situation to push superstitions and lies about "Islamophobia" and that "Headscarf Wearing Sisters were being attacked in the streets". It was almost as if the 52 who died had never happened

.

Couldnt both things hve happened? Or is it all black or white, literally.

Hobbes

juslookin wrote:

Despite a wealth of Polish immigration in Ireland, I don't see any specific concern about the issue of "Polophobia".

You mean you didn't see all those posts in Afterhours about how Polish people are here stealing our jobs and EU enlargement is a bad thing and they shouldn't be allowed flood our country?

Despite a wealth of Nigerian immigration in Ireland, I don's see any specific concern about the issue of "Nigeraphobia".

Guessed you missed the posts as well claiming that most Nigerians are all Asylum seekers spreading disease and drug dealers.

I don't see specific initiatives for Kosovaphobia, or Albaniaphobia, or Angolaphobia, or Ghaniaphobia

Xenophobia seems to cover them all.

Islam is not. It is arguably a harsh, intolerant political belief system, with an agenda to dominate and subdue.

Which shows you how little you know about the religon. You appear to be getting one end of the story.

For example if I was to equate Christians to the Fundimentalists in the USA then I would think that all Christians believe in creationism, beating thier children, killing Abortionists and that Noahs flood invented soil layers.

Often when followers of Islam find themselves in "new" socieities,

You keep going on about "new" societies. Heres a test for you. We have had muslims in this country (recorded) since the 1950's. Can you show us where Ireland is turning into an Islamic state?

After the 7/7 bombs, MPAC used the situation to push superstitions and lies about "Islamophobia" and that "Headscarf Wearing Sisters were being attacked in the streets". It was almost as if the 52 who died had never happened.

Or the the one who was shot for no reason, no wait 2 shot for no reason, detained without rights and then let go without ever being charged with anything but get to go home to a destroyed house.

Sound like the actions of a rational country not in the grip of Islamophobia (which I hate as a term).

You go on about how your not predjuice again yet you have just equated people of Islam that they are all Terrorists.

Hobbes

Some "British muslims" do no recognise the Irish state. They "do not recognise countries, only Allah".

There are some Brits who do not reconise the Irish state as well.

You have any proof to back that accusation up by the way, and I notice while you say Some you then go on to try and paint it to the whole.

juslookin

InFront wrote:

Islamophobia is not due to immigration nor is any other type of racism. It is a term to describe a particular rise in one type of racism disproportionate to others - that which is against Muslims - particularly since the reise of Islamic extremism.

You are almost suggesting that Islamophobia, an "irrational fear" of Islam is a response to Islamic estremism. If that is the case, I don't think that would be "irrational".

InFront wrote:

Do you know any Muslims who believe in their religion? Would you describe them as intolerant, or harsh with an intention to subdue and dominate? Or have you ever only seen us, from a safe distance, on TV?

I live amongst Muslims. I would describe some of them as intolerant and harsh and I would describe some of them as having an intention to dominate with their belief system above others.

My typical British demenour has so far prevented me in several situations from doing anything other than smiling and nodding sympathetically when I have been accosted by a friendly Islamic gentleman telling me that one day we will all believe in the same god and the evils of George Bush. However I am coming to the conclusion that by nodding and smiling I am only encouraging them.


We have evidence that 52 people were murdered on 7/7. We do not have any evidence of the attacks on headscarf wearing sisters, although we have MPACs claims. However, seeing MPACs current claims, I give them less credibility than I previously did.

juslookin

Hobbes wrote:

You go on about how your not predjuice again yet you have just equated people of Islam that they are all Terrorists.

No I didn't. If you think I did, please kindly make that clear.

InFront

juslookin wrote:

You are almost suggesting that Islamophobia, an "irrational fear" of Islam is a response to Islamic estremism. If that is the case, I don't think that would be "irrational"..

Im not 'almost suggesting' it, I am suggesting September 11th and other attacks have made some people 'irrationally afraid' of your Joe Public Muslim getting on with his life. These people often express their fear as anger. And you call this rational? Avoid all Muslims then, better not go into town... or to your local takeaway, to the dentist, to hospital... in fact maybe you should just stay indoors altogether

I have been accosted by a friendly Islamic gentleman telling me that one day we will all believe in the same god

Next time you see this man, let him know you already believe in the same God, its the other stuff that makes us different:)

and the evils of George Bush.

That might have been me... sorry

The Sweeper

juslookin wrote:

The UK is not anti Islam. It is incredibly, perhaps over pro-Islam for a secular and muliti faith, multi culture society.

The problem is that some Islamic organisations are forcing agendas on a variety of very dodgy tactics. One is the "good cop" / "bad cop" of we can't be held responsible for terrorism.

Another is the propogation of "Islamophobia" myths.

The caliphate would see the Republic of Ireland under Sharia law. Goodbye guiness, goodbye the democracy you've achieved since 1916, goodbye Catholic and Protestant churches, goodbye the advances, rights and lifestyles Irish women have achieved since the 1980s. If you are unsure of whether it is a bad thing, I suggest maybe going to live in a sharia country for a while and then letting us have your opinion.

I could go toe to toe and line for line with you on this one, but actually I'd rather make a single-minded and sweeping attack against you personally and get turfed out of humanities for a bit.

You strike me as a racist, subversive gobshite. Your arguments are skillfully intricate. You are presenting a front of racial tolerence against a backdrop of manipulative commentary about the advantages of being a victim, comparing the muslim society to other migrant populations when there really is no comparison - it's apples to oranges.

If you think the UK isn't anti-Islam, tell that to Mohammed Abdul Kahar.

You should try a little harder in distinguishing the couple of million muslims in the UK from terrorists. They can't all be women hating religious fanatics you know. It'd be more noticeable if they were.

The fact is, you can't hold a culture, a nation or a belief system responsible for terrorism. It was wrong when Bush led the backlash against Afghanistan for 9/11, just as it would be wrong for Britain to hold the entirety of Irish society responsible for the Guildford and Birmingham bombings, or perhaps Warrington or Canary Wharf or any of the other attacks that an extremist group perpetrated on British soil.

However, I have a feeling you'd go around in circles till you were exhausted on this subject, since it's taken a lot of patience for you to drum up 50 reasonably agreeable posts to make you look kosher (oh! the irony) before you started this stormfront-esque bollocksology.

I'm done with your piss poor manipulation. I'll not be arsed responding again because my view of your spineless propaganda isn't going to change bewteen this and my next post. Why don't you take your great big tar-brush and go juslookin somewhere else?

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

Or the the one who was shot for no reason, no wait 2 shot for no reason, detained without rights and then let go without ever being charged with anything but get to go home to a destroyed house.

Sound like the actions of a rational country not in the grip of Islamophobia (which I hate as a term).

The actions of a country whose police/intelligence people are very, very, very scared.
They are terrified that they will overlook the next group of heretofore quiet, studious, and prayerful muslims who suddenly go batshít over Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc etc etc and decide to slaughter for their God in the UK.
If they miss them, maybe the crazies will get lucky and manage to off a few 100 or even a few 1000 people instead of "just" 50 or so.
Therefore they overcompensate and make mistakes. There is actually something real for them to fear here though.

There has been "islamophobia" in the media in the UK, and I'm sure many ordinary people are not really feeling brotherly love for "muslims" in the abstract at present but do you really think the govt. and institutions like the police are "islamophobic"?

Seems to me they are really trying to discriminate between the subset and the set here and the stakes are alot higher than when they were dealing with the 'Ra and the Irish.

The way alot of this is reported doesn't help. I posted something about this when those people were arrested in Canada. AFAIR A mosque in Toronto had some windows smashed but the article someone else posted was talking of "the beginnings of retrribution/retaliatory attacks against muslims" as if a pogrom or something would kick off any day now. There was alot of that after the London Bombings too - the media watching and waiting for some race-violence to erupt like crows looking for an eyeball to peck.

Dave!

Gah, can someone coin a new term as an alternative to "Islamophobia" -- we're not all afraid!

WhiteWashMan

juslookin wrote:

The UK is not anti Islam. It is incredibly, perhaps over pro-Islam for a secular and muliti faith, multi culture society.

The problem is that some Islamic organisations are forcing agendas on a variety of very dodgy tactics.

One is the "good cop" / "bad cop" of we can't be held responsible for terrorism.

Another is the propogation of "Islamophobia" myths.

The caliphate would see the Republic of Ireland under Sharia law. Goodbye guiness, goodbye the democracy you've achieved since 1916, goodbye Catholic and Protestant churches, goodbye the advances, rights and lifestyles Irish women have achieved since the 1980s. If you are unsure of whether it is a bad thing, I suggest maybe going to live in a sharia country for a while and then letting us have your opinion.

its funny how after a while, the stastics and the references go out the window, and the fact like opinion takes over subtley.

can you please link to reason or rhyme fo each one of these 'factoids' you have just picked up on.

i really hate opinion without a good reason.

what are these agendas?
what are these dodgey tactics?
what are you talking about good cops and bad cops for?
what 'islamaphobia' myths?
why do you keep saying 'islamaphobia'? is it the new word of the day?
what are you talking about ireland under the sharia law? where the hell do you get that from? are you plucking random thoughts from the air here and seriously suggesting them as little factual titbits for us to digest?

a very seriously small minority in the country are suddenly going to take us all over, run the country, make us change our beliefs and legal system?
please, id like to espacially see the background for that 'opinion', how its going to happen, whats happening so far (again, facts only please), and how long its likely to take. i have to go to a wedding next year in a catholic church, will my good day out be ruined by then?

still, would make a refreshing change, wouldnt it?

Karl Hungus

DaveMcG wrote:

Gah, can someone coin a new term as an alternative to "Islamophobia" -- we're not all afraid!

You know, I think it's actually a great term.

It makes a very refreshing change to the usual "Racist" rubbish that's hurled about without thought. The words 'Racism' or 'Racist' suggest something quite vindictive, or a belief in the superiority of your race. The 'Phobia' suggests something that's simply irrational, or unfounded, which I think more often than not is a lot closer to the truth of a lot of so-called "Racism" in Ireland today.

juslookin

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You strike me as a racist, subversive gobshite.

We'll, you're wrong !

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

Your arguments are skillfully intricate.

Skillfully intricate ? Oh if only. Just prepared to go a take a look at and ask questions about the "recieved wisdom", and the "official line". (I'm wondering, while folk like yourself still allow it without calling out the thought police that is ... ). Why not impress me yourself.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You are presenting a front of racial tolerence against a backdrop of manipulative commentary about the advantages of being a victim.

I don't think there is any advantage in an individual being a "victim". It's a horrible position to be in. But there are plenty of political advantages for "organisations" claiming "victimhood" and the "victim position" and "exploiting victims" to further their own agendas. (Anyone heard of the McCartney sisters ?)

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

Comparing the muslim society to other migrant populations when there really is no comparison - it's apples to oranges.

I've spent three decades in the UK's most multiculural area. I can tell you that there are some interesting comparisions to be made. That's the source of a lot of discussion. That's why people are wondering why before now there was no Sikhophobia, Hinduphobia and the like, while there is a huge amount of coverage of "Islamophobia". Where is it coming from and why.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

If you think the UK isn't anti-Islam, tell that to Mohammed Abdul Kahar.

There is no proof that there is any "anti Islam" action there. Unless you have some, which would be much appreciated.

On the other hand, thousands of examples, from Cherie Blair using taxpayers money to fight the Shabina Begum case, to groups of nutters walking down our main streets with signs glorifying and gloating about the 52 people murdered on 7th July being protected by police who actually arrested people who disagreed with them. Islamic schools. Islamic banking. Islamic media, organisations and associations funded by the government. Women only swimming classes and healthcare sessions. I think there is plenty of evidence that the UK is rather more pro than it is anti Islam. Certainly far more than Ireland, France and many other European nations.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You should try a little harder in distinguishing the couple of million muslims in the UK from terrorists. They can't all be women hating religious fanatics you know. It'd be more noticeable if they were.

Please remind me, where was it exactly I called the couple of million muslims in the UK terrorists ? Or ALL ? I missed that. You are beginning to sound like those people who when losing an argument revert to throwing the accusations of "Racism".

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

The fact is, you can't hold a culture, a nation or a belief system responsible for terrorism.

Again, please remind me where exactly I did this ?

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

However, I have a feeling you'd go around in circles till you were exhausted on this subject, since it's taken a lot of patience for you to drum up 50 reasonably agreeable posts to make you look kosher (oh! the irony) before you started this stormfront-esque bollocksology.

Frankly, that's just your opinion. And you are wrong.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

I'm done with your piss poor manipulation. I'll not be arsed responding again because my view of your spineless propaganda isn't going to change bewteen this and my next post. Why don't you take your great big tar-brush and go juslookin somewhere else?

Manipulation ? Propoganda ? Nope, discussion. Exchange of information.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

I could go toe to toe and line for line with you on this one, but actually I'd rather make a single-minded and sweeping attack against you personally and get turfed out of humanities for a bit.

Why not try having a debate, an exchange of information ?

Or maybe you are not up to it ?

Maybe you are just one of those Indymedia types ? You know, "we must smash their heads on the pavement" when you can't form any coherent arguments ?

juslookin

As you acknowledge in your reproduction of my quote, I specify "Some" organisations, and unlike some of your fellow posters you can make a distinction of not accusing somebody of suggesting "All"

WhiteWashMan wrote:

what are these agendas?

Some high profile UK islamic organisations have agendas which range from modest advancement to the "Islamification of Britiain" to the "Creation of The Caliphate". Al Majahoroun, Hibz ut Tahir were some of the originals, but they have plenty of latest incarnations. Some organisations simply want a separate school / legal / etc system for muslims. And some just want some action on local advertising hoardings, or preventing a pub from having a beer garden as it "tempts the youth". So many agendas, so little space.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

what are these dodgey tactics?

All sorts of dodgy tactics. Some groups infiltrating UK universitities and radicalising students over small issues to create major situations. Infiltrating the media and using your position within it to propogate incorrect information. Using schoolchildren (i.e Shabina Begum) as a front for campaigns to further their agendas.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

what are you talking about good cops and bad cops for?
?

Good cops and Bad cops? We have reached a situation where we have some groups saying "we are not responsible for terrorism, we do not condone terrorism, we do not support terrorism, but unfortunately if you do not give us what we want, we cannot prevent terrorism, we understand why some people may turn to terrorism".

You might be familiar with Martin McGuinness ?

WhiteWashMan wrote:

what 'islamaphobia' myths?

what 'islamaphobia' myths? If you had a look at the original post, perhaps this http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2222/1/ and this http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=10949&page=1&pp=20 might give you some insight into how "Islamophobic myths" are started, are propogated and what the outcome might be ?

WhiteWashMan wrote:

why do you keep saying 'islamaphobia'? is it the new word of the day?

it appears to have been coined by some islamic groups, and for whatever reason they like to keep it high on the national agenda.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

what are you talking about ireland under the sharia law? where the hell do you get that from?

A poster suggested that Caliphate might not be a bad thing. Caliphate is a belief held by millions, tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of muslims. Caliphate would mean that Ireland would be under Sharia law. Literally.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

a very seriously small minority in the country are suddenly going to take us all over, run the country, make us change our beliefs and legal system?
please, id like to espacially see the background for that 'opinion', how its going to happen, whats happening so far (again, facts only please), and how long its likely to take.

no, but this small minority are certainly going to do their very best to acheive all of that and more. That is the simply logical outcome of their beliefs and their agendas.

And when they say it with such convincing terms, including "Islamophobia" some well meaning lunatics might actually make concessions to them.

Hobbes

juslookin wrote:

No I didn't. If you think I did, please kindly make that clear.

reread how your writing.

Incidently do you have a list of how Muslims have forced the Irish culture to the way of Islam since the 1950's?

as for UK being anti-Islam. I'd say its not, in that the whole of the UK isn't. If there is anti-Islamic elements in the UK then yes and there is some disparity between rights of muslims and the rights of others.

For example only on TV last night they were going on about integration in schools in the UK not working correctly. You had all white schools, all certain religous schools but one thing they noted was that while it is easy to start up a All-Catholic school it is extremly hard to impossible to create an All-Muslim school.

Although the program was arguing that all these people should be mixing in schools or there isn't going to be any integration.

bonkey

juslookin wrote:

And you can choose whether the thousands who fought and died for self determination of who they imagined the Irish people were

I think you misunderstand what self-determination is.

Freedom of self-determination does exactly what it says on the tin. It gives you the freedom to choose. You can't suddenly decide that its only suppsed to apply when people choose stuff you agree with or like.

If the papers or people choose to be ultra-PC or whatever it is you seem to have a problem with, that is not a betrayal of their freedom of self-determination, but rather an exercise of it.

jc

Wibbs

juslookin wrote:

I've spent three decades in the UK's most multiculural area. I can tell you that there are some interesting comparisions to be made. That's the source of a lot of discussion. That's why people are wondering why before now there was no Sikhophobia, Hinduphobia and the like, while there is a huge amount of coverage of "Islamophobia". Where is it coming from and why.

Hmm yea OK I see where you're coming from. That said the reaction since 911 may have something to do with it. They're in the spotlight and it's their cahnce to sing as it were. Put it this way, pre 911 I would have been the only one of my friends that had read through the Quran etc. Since then they pretty much all have. Like all fads it'll pass.

Some high profile UK islamic organisations have agendas which range from modest advancement to the "Islamification of Britiain" to the "Creation of The Caliphate". Al Majahoroun, Hibz ut Tahir were some of the originals, but they have plenty of latest incarnations. Some organisations simply want a separate school / legal / etc system for muslims. And some just want some action on local advertising hoardings, or preventing a pub from having a beer garden as it "tempts the youth". So many agendas, so little space.

Partially true, most of it seems to be sabre rattling though. Most ordinary muslims at best seem to give it tacit support.

what 'islamaphobia' myths? If you had a look at the original post, perhaps this http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2222/1/ and this http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=10949&page=1&pp=20 might give you some insight into how "Islamophobic myths" are started, are propogated and what the outcome might be ?

Maybe, but if your read through the forum replies, among the shock and horror stuff, many posters are cautioning against overreaction. I think people of any culture can smell bullsh1t when they see it.

it appears to have been coined by some islamic groups, and for whatever reason they like to keep it high on the national agenda.

Like all interest groups, especially if they feel under threat.

A poster suggested that Caliphate might not be a bad thing. Caliphate is a belief held by millions, tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of muslims. Caliphate would mean that Ireland would be under Sharia law. Literally.

I'm in agreement with Hobbes on this one. It could happen only if the Muslim population was a majority here. We're a long way from that. A critical mass is a long way away. I could see ghettoisation happening in certain areas of europe, where localised sharia might come to pass(holland/france etc), which I would have serious issue with, but here? I doubt it. It also depends where the Muslim population came from originally. If they're from saudi or Pakistan, they would likely be more "militant" than those from Muslim asia for example. There are more flavours of Islam out there.

And when they say it with such convincing terms, including "Islamophobia" some well meaning lunatics might actually make concessions to them.

Possible.

juslookin

Hobbes wrote:

Incidently do you have a list of how Muslims have forced the Irish culture to the way of Islam since the 1950's?
.

Well, we are getting off the point, but to digress.

No, and since the 1950's I don't believe this phenomena of agressive radical Islam has occoured in Ireland. And in the 60's, 70's, 80's this was true in the UK.

In previous decades most emigrant groups of whatever kind were quite isolated from their origins.

However, in the 2000's a combination of advances in communications and technology, variously for example the internet, satellite TV, cheap video cameras and DVD production, cheap air travel and other modern elements are combining to generate the phenomenon you are seeing in modern day UK.

Hence young men in British cities watching imported Jihad DVDs then getting angry about their "brothers" in Bosnia, and being politicised against their fellow non muslim British citizens .... or Pakistanis rioting and murdering on the basis of a or a lie myth about a picture of a pig.

The likes of MPAC are an example of what is happening. Explore the site, then relate to headlines about the "Rise Of Islamophobia".

bonkey

juslookin wrote:

You are almost suggesting that Islamophobia, an "irrational fear" of Islam is a response to Islamic estremism. If that is the case, I don't think that would be "irrational".

Extending a rational fear of one group to being a fear of a larger supergroup for no rational basis is irrational.

If extremists are the problem, then extremism is what we need to fear.
If Islamic extremists are the problem, then extremism is what we need to fear.
If male extremists are the problem, then extremism is what we need to fear.
If human extremists are hte problem, then extremism is what we need to fear.

Deciding that for the second case, Islam is the problem, in the third case the male gender and in the fourth case the entire human race.....that would be irrational.

I live amongst Muslims. I would describe some of them as intolerant and harsh and I would describe some of them as having an intention to dominate with their belief system above others.

I have lived amongst Irish. I found some of them to be utterly despicable people. Should I therefore decide that the Irish are a despicable people? Should I decide that my non-despicable neighbours are despicable-but-hiding-it?

Would such decisions be considered rational?
Would such an argument be considered logical?
I didn't think so either.

My typical British demenour has ...

Hold on thar pardner. I thought you were all in favour of this "tar them all with the brush some of them get tarred with".

Some British hate foreigners. Some British are actively aggressive to anyone foreign living in their nation. Shouldn't we employ the same "expansionary logic" you've used to show how such groups of "some" are the problem with all of Islam and judge the British on teh actions of their undesirable minorities, rather than your pleasant demeanour?

Do do otherwise, surely, would be to apply a double-standard....judging the British by your "typical" pleasant demeanour, but Muslims based on the selection of an unquantified "some" who have more problematic outlooks?

However I am coming to the conclusion that by nodding and smiling I am only encouraging them.

<sarcasm>

Dead right. What you should do is hurl abuse at them.

If they don't appear Anglo or Saxon in origin, additionally tell them to **** off home to where they came from.

If that doesn't work, resort to physical violence.

</sarcasm>

jc