M.R.S.A. - Why is someone not suing the ass off the Health Services?

Monkeyboots

The situation with the HSE and MRSA is an absolute outrage. There are people dying actually having contracted this bug from within our hospitals.
I just dont understand how this is allowed to happen. The hospitals in this country are filty disgusting places. Its about time somebody did something about this unbelievable situation.

Any comments? Does anyone know of any pending ligitation?:mad:

hullaballoo

This comes under the area of medical negligence. It's hard to see how a court could hold a hospital liable under negligence for something that they don't control. Think of the public policy behind it.

Rev Hellfire

Shocking !

But then again MRSA and its related bacterium are actually quite common and only present a real danger to those who already have compromised immune systems. I can’t help but feel you’re playing into the hands of sensationalist journalism.

Sangre

Not to mention the cost of bringing a case in medical negligence is astronomical.

Monkeyboots

Surely there is negligence on behalf of the hospital whereby the cause of the spreading of this bug is due to the fact that hygiene in our hospitals is pathetic. I agree that the patients who are affected by this have a higher degree of vulnerability since the spread affects those who have open wounds from surgery etc. My problem is that the hospitals make no effect to segregate patients who have contracted the bug. I know that we have a serious problem with hospital beds in this 3rd world medical system but the ironic fact is patients with MRSA don't recover, their wounds don't heal. Therefore they hold valuable beds in hospitals for longer - its a vicious circle. Also although the bug is airborne it is mainly contracted due to the poor hygiene of the medical staff moving from one infected patient to another. Don't the hospitals have an obligation to ensure that they have proper procedures in place and strict routines to curb such spread? It appears not and this I believe is where their negligence lies.

Throwing the old "policy grounds" argument at this one, is simply not good enough. Until someone accepts liability for this scandalous situation and begins to act its going to get worse. Some patients don't ever recover the bug, if left untreated it can be fatal - Our hospitals are killing us!

Put it this way, I fear for anyone who needs to have a surgical procedure in any hospital in Ireland at the moment.

hullaballoo

That's very magnanimous of you. However, you asked a question as to why they weren't getting sued, and an answer was given. Whether or not it's good enough is not a legal matter. We can only concern ourselves with the law around medical negligence and such.

To be honest, from a legal perspective, it's a non-issue. Think of the state that the HSE is in now. Then think of the state that it would be in if it had to pay "compo" out to all of the Anto's and Eddie's that contract the disease. That's the public policy behind it.

As Sangre mentioned, it's also quite costly to sue a hospital, and seeings as the return is anything but guaranteed, not many people do it anymore.

dermot_sheehan

You have to first prove causation, that the negligence caused the MRSA, a pretty difficult feat to do.

You also need to show that the health authority broke the requisite standard of care, and there aren't policy reasons for excluding the dity of care. The standard of care is of a competent health care provider in the community, the courts don't expect perfection from healthcare professionals.

Victor

It would be possible to stop the spread of these infections if for example you banned other people from hospitals. Do you think that is practical?

mountainyman

gabhain7 wrote:

The standard of care is of a competent health care provider in the community, the courts don't expect perfection from healthcare professionals.

No profession is allowed 'one free bite' (Roche v Pellew) I know NOTHING about this area. I don't know what MRSA is, what it does or how easy it is to prevent. However if it the onsequences are severe and the prevention is easy then even if the GAP is to ignore it the high court will correct that.

The standards to which doctors are held are very high. I am impressed that they almost always meet them. I couldn't have been a doctor.

MM

Monkeyboots

I understand that there is an extremely high threshold to pass in order to prove causation against a doctor and accept the reasonable doctor thing etc. But that's not really my issue. I reckon that if the HSE cant bear the burden for their negligence (in terms of their duty to ensure that all citizen are provided with a system of health care that actually works and where hygiene standards in our hospitals are maintained appropriately) then the State should. Either by means of compensation or some acknowledgment that the system has failed citizens. I reckon that people just think 'well what can the cashstraped HSE do?' We as taxpayers are entitled to more. Don't you think?? I suppose its only when you know someone who is going through the 'health services experience' that you fully understand the failure of the system - I may be biased!

hullaballoo

I think we can all see the point that you are making fairly clearly, and you may be right. I think the problem we're having is in trying to see the link between your point and any manner of legal discussion.

Monkeyboots

Rights, duties and obligations are enforcable by law - are they not? Where the State has failed surely citizens are entitled to compensation or rectification of the problems causing the failure at very least.

Lplated

To the best of my knowledge, only one person has died in Ireland from MRSA. Most people that contract the disease can be treated by fairly low level anti-biotics or even by simply washing themselves.

I mention the above in relation to what should be the obvious answer to the question posed - for the vast majority of people who contract the bug, there is no 'damage' in the real sense of the word, or at least not damage that would sound in any litigable level of damages.

Secondly, as the op may or may not be aware, ever since the first outbreak of MRSA in Ireland, Irish hospitals have taken precautions, ranging from installing washing facilities at prominent entry places, putting up signs requesting visitors to wash hands etc on entry and exit, as well as, in some cases, isolating those showing more severe symptoms. In short, they can possibly make out a case that once they became aware of the issue, they took all reasonable precautions.

Thirdly, to answer the final question posed, one case has been initiated through the Courts and is presently at pleadings stage.

NUTLEY BOY

QUESTION : M.R.S.A. - Why is someone not suing the ass off the Health Services?

ANSWER : Evidence.

Monkeyboots

Lplated wrote:

Thirdly, to answer the final question posed, one case has been initiated through the Courts and is presently at pleadings stage.

Point taken, however I think more could have been done by the HSE to ensure that the precautions taken were enforced. For example, I have seen hospital staff using the 'faciliities' without washing hands, moving from patient to patient without using the alcohol hand solution supplied etc.

It will be interesting to see what the actual grounds of the case pending are and the outcome.

mountainyman

hullaballoo wrote:

I think we can all see the point that you are making fairly clearly, and you may be right. I think the problem we're having is in trying to see the link between your point and any manner of legal discussion.

Well one could:
A) Look at the generally accepted practise in Irish hospitals, that is in terms of guidelines laid down for the prevention of MRSA.
Compare that practise with international best practise.
C) Look at how closely the hospital follows its own practise

HOWEVER:

lplated wrote:

...Irish hospitals have taken precautions, ranging from installing washing facilities at prominent entry places, putting up signs requesting visitors to wash hands etc on entry and exit, as well as, in some cases, isolating those showing more severe symptoms.

The alteration to practise should limit damages only where the illness results in damage subsequent to that alteration.
One can look at systemic reasons why good practise (in terms of hygiene) was not being followed, prior to these alterations, and sue on that.

lplated wrote:

In short, they can possibly make out a case that once they became aware of the issue, they took all reasonable precautions.

I respectfully disagree, it is the responsibility fo the hospital administration to be aware of these problems before some person is harmed by their negligence (if any).


MM

Lplated

mountainyman wrote:

I respectfully disagree, it is the responsibility fo the hospital administration to be aware of these problems before some person is harmed by their negligence (if any).


MM

If you can find a case/statute law etc that says 'it is the responsibility of the hospital administration to be aware etc' then you possibly could.
With respect, I think you may be confusing what you think should be the case in an ideal world with hard reality.

As I understand it MRSA, once it exists in an environment, it can be contracted by touching. There is no proof (tmk) that the bug 'began' in an Irish hospital or that circumstances in the Irish health services caused the bug. It is quite feasible that person A brought the bug with them from Country X and passed it to person B who happended to visit their sister-in-law in hospital Y and passed it on that way.

Monkeyboots

Something else... Why are the HSE allowing hospitals to refuse to publish statistics on MRSA? If they were not afraid of potential negligence falling back on them they would have no reason not to compel them to do so – after all what would they have to hide? The fact is, its not just hospital management, the HSE are complicit in the whole problem. The people responsible for taking appropriate action to improve our health service (and I include politicians here) are paid too much and are too lazy to care.

Lplated wrote:

It is quite feasible that person A brought the bug with them from Country X and passed it to person B who happended to visit their sister-in-law in hospital Y and passed it on that way.

Yes maybe this is the case… however it’s funny that Ireland has almost the highest incidence of MRSA in Europe.

Lplated

Monkeyboots wrote:

Something else... Why are the HSE allowing hospitals to refuse to publish statistics on MRSA?

One generally doesn't voluntarily distribute the rope on which one may be made to swing.

Monkeyboots wrote:

Yes maybe this is the case… however it’s funny that Ireland has almost the highest incidence of MRSA in Europe.

Just curious how you know this given your complaint that the HSE is not publishing statistics etc..?

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole MRSA thing is dreadful also. I just can't see how it could become widely litigable with any degree of success.

Monkeyboots

Lplated wrote:

Just curious how you know this given your complaint that the HSE is not publishing statistics etc..?
Don't get me wrong, I think the whole MRSA thing is dreadful also. I just can't see how it could become widely litigable with any degree of success.

As far as I know the Irish Health Services are duty bound by the EU to provide data to a central monitoring agency for infectious diseases and they published figures on it - I found the data on an EU website anyway. It actually the concealed data on particular hospitals that I refer to.

Maybe you are correct re chances of litigation - I supose time will tell, I know there is a Solicitor in Sligo who has offerred their services if anyone is interested!

M.

Victor

Monkeyboots wrote:

The fact is, its not just hospital management, the HSE are complicit in the whole problem.

As are patients and their visitors.

edanto

I predict some problems with your hypothetical legal case...

Monkeyboots wrote:

My problem is that the hospitals make no effect to segregate patients who have contracted the bug.

Happily this is untrue.

the ironic fact is patients with MRSA don't recover, their wounds don't heal.

No sign of any irony, just plain untrue. Though it is a difficult infection to recover from if someone is unwell.

Also although the bug is airborne

What?!!? It can sometimes move through a persons respiratory tract from a nasal infection, but to say it's airborne is way off the mark. Are you just making stuff up to be sensational? Any chance you work for a tabloid?

it is mainly contracted due to the poor hygiene of the medical staff moving from one infected patient to another.

Finally, a fact we can agree on. But who do you sue, the nurses and care workers that were looking after the patient, the hospital for not rigidly enforcing the hand-washing policy or the government for keeping the staff numbers so low that they are too busy to wash their hands every 30 seconds? Or the family visiting the MRSA patient that hug and kiss them, pick up the infection and then leave it on the taps in the bathroon for the nurse to pick up?

The only positive outcome I could see to this would be an increased awareness amongst the public about MRSA, but I think most people know about it now anyways. So, I reckon a case like that would be a waste of time and effort.

next

Monkeyboots wrote:

The situation with the HSE and MRSA is an absolute outrage. There are people dying actually having contracted this bug from within our hospitals.
I just dont understand how this is allowed to happen. The hospitals in this country are filty disgusting places. Its about time somebody did something about this unbelievable situation.

Any comments? Does anyone know of any pending ligitation?:mad:

At the moment there are at least 100 cases pending. its a long hard battle, first you have to apply to have the persons hospital records ( sounds easy but its not) after 11 years I still have not received all of my fathers records, he died from MRSA 11 years ago after going into hospital with a muscle spasm in his back he died 8 weeks later, he was 58

gerky

as sum1 who has got mrsa several times from hospitals there is not a big hype been made by he media about this it is a very serious matter i have been in wards with people who had mrsa they were not isolated it was and is been made nothin off by a lot of people my last operation wound took months 2 heal bcause of it and left scarring far worse than it shud of been how dare any1 blittle it try getting it in a serious wound then cum back 2 me

wasted_winter

I am not an expert in law so I'll keep this brief:

One poster reported that as far as he was aware only one death had occurred in Ireland due to MRSA. Not true. My father died from it in 2002. I know I'm not alone in having lost loved ones to MRSA.

To the OP's quote regarding segregation. This is also untrue. My father was an inpatient in a large Dublin hospital. When my father contract MRSA he was moved to the 'MRSA ward' which literally appeard to be an unused area of the hospital as far from other patients and visitors as possible. The ward he was moved from was immediately stripped and cleaned & all bedding security bagged.

The segregation of patients was so strong that when my father eventually lapsed into a coma & became critically ill the medical staff hesitated moving him to Intensive Care as it would jepordise the other patients. They waited two hours before eventually loading his bed with emergecy meds & equipment and made a dash to the ICU - where he remained, still unconcious, for several days before dying.

As someone else said - the main problem is evidence.

I might be completely off the mark here (and please do correct me if you can) but MRSA in some ways can be likened to AIDS - no one has actually died specifically due to AIDS as a disease... they die because of the complications of the disease... infections, etc. MRSA is the same. The bug doesn't kill you... instead you get respiritory failure from chest infections, septicimia from wounds that won't heal....

I have no idea how that stands in the eyes of the law... or the medical profession (How DO you define the cause of death for such bugs/diseases?) but I'd be interested to know...

Sleipnir

My GF's dad died after contracting MRSA about 7 years ago. He was placed in intensive care where they knew a patient there had MRSA but couldn't move him because he needed intensive care. GF's dad then contracted it and subsequently died.
He had only gone in for a simple operation on his throat.

The bug does seem to further weaken an already ill patient to the point where their immune system just can't fight anymore. As it's "methicillin resistant" antibiotics don't really help.

Regarding the law, I don't know really. Could you sue because the health service failed in it's duty of care? If that's the case we could bankrupt ourselves.

mountainyman

edanto wrote:

Finally, a fact we can agree on. But who do you sue, the nurses and care workers that were looking after the patient...

In practise the consultant responsible for their care. But YES

edanto wrote:

... the hospital for not rigidly enforcing the hand-washing policy...

yes mere formulation of a policy which is not enforced (and indeed cannot be adhered to) will not be a valid defense. So YES.

edanto wrote:

...the government for keeping the staff numbers so low that they are too busy to wash their hands every 30 seconds...

In the context of the sinnott case NO.

edanto wrote:

Or the family visiting the MRSA patient that hug and kiss them, pick up the infection and then leave it on the taps in the bathroon for the nurse to pick up?

How are the family to guard against this.

1. Is MSRA well known?
2. Is it serious in effect?
3. can it be prevented?
4. Are the steps that can prevent it such as to impact negatively on the overall functioning of the hospital?
5. Would the steps that prevent it impact negatively on the health of the patient who has contracted MSRA?

MM

mountainyman

Lplated wrote:

If you can find a case/statute law etc that says 'it is the responsibility of the hospital administration to be aware etc' then you possibly could.

Not to predict an illness before it appears anywhere in the world but certainly to be aware of it as soon as it appears in any 1st world country. The hospital administrators are inept. the GAP is ineptitude and laziness however thanks to Roche V Pellew the law is crystal clear in this regard.
Also the case where the beaker had a crack in it and the patient got sick.
MM

shadowgirl

hi guys,

i'm new to this board.

i have been reading these post with interest...because i am someone who has a family member in hospital at the moment who has MRSA.

i agree, that ppl who contract MRSA in hospital should sue the ass of the HSE, cause maybe then they will get off their backside and do something about whats happening in the hospitals today.

for 7 years i've looked after my 73 y.o mum who has alzheimers disease and she has never had a pressure sore, no matter how sick she was.

then she had to go into hospital with a really bad chest infection...she was 4 days in this southside hospital and gets a pressuresore!

talk about negliance!!!!!!!!!

then three weeks later she gets another chest infection...because the first one wasn't completely cleared up when they sent her home from the hospital and again she is hospitalised, this time in a northside hospital.

in A&E i pleaded with the staff to get a pressure matteress for my mum, but she was left in A&E on a trolly.

finally she gets a bed two days later, by which time her pressure sore got worse.

then i was called in to see the doctor two days later and told the news...My mother has MRSA!

needless to say i was shocked and upset.

but anger overtook these emotions when the hospital tried to say mum got the MRSA in the other hospital or maybe at home.

talk about passing the buck!

which makes me wonder what hope we have if we need to go into hospital.

because if they cant admit that she got the bug there and get on with cleaning the whole area of where she is.

what hope have we got of being taken "care" of if ever we find ourselves in hospital?

as i am writing this my mother is still in hospital two months later and two nights ago i was called in at 5am because she took really bad, high temps,breathing problems...and still they tell me she has an infection but they dont know where "like MRSA isnt an infection"

what really gets me is that they ave these little hand washing things everywhee in the hospital, but i have never, ever seen any of the doctors or nurses using these!

my mother isn't in isolation,they still have my mother in a ward with people who haven't got MRSA.

how crazy is that?

i really think something needs to happen to make the HSE sit up and pay attention.

weather litigation is the answer, i don't know

am i angry? yes as mad as hell!!!!!!!!!!
do i think the hospital in negilent ? yes i do!!!!!!!!!

is there anything i can do about this? i don't know, if anyone does, let me know!!!!!!!!
cause i will sure as hell do it.

sorry for rattling on, but i really needed to get this off my chest !

have a good day.

shadowgirl

ambro25

Rev Hellfire wrote:

But then again MRSA and its related bacterium are actually quite common and only present a real danger to those who already have compromised immune systems. I can’t help but feel you’re playing into the hands of sensationalist journalism.

You'd have to be careful of 'serious' journalism all the same, where hospital records/cleanliness/MRSA are concerned.

I have proof that an article by a respected journalist in the Irish Times, about a very rare disease contracted in Ireland on at least two occasions last year (+ treated in hospital), was very badly informed - if the journalist herself was not misinformed in the first place (which, I have resonable grounds to believe, was the case).

Having been at the coalface, I'm not blaming the hospital (because they did a sterling job, under the circumstances, and because it all ended well thankfully) - all the same I'm well aware that the relapse was a f*ckup and was covered up by the hospital (and the case didn't make the article at all, when it predated the case cited in the article by a few mere month and was medically much more significant).

Tom Young

I returned home from vacation today to hear that a neighbour had passed away and has already been buried. The person died of MRSA.

This is a little morbid, but I know that no inquest was carried out into the cause of death and MRSA has not been recorded on the death certificate. Any death whether natural or not can be subject to a coronors review at the request of the personal representatives of families involved.

People are not opting for this. They should.