Size of Irish Military

ISAW

what is/should be the size of the Irish Military and how should it be divided into land/sea/air or home and abroad e.g. on UN duty or as part of new EU battle groups?

How much should the State be prepared to spend on the Irish Milirary and how does this relate to international standards?

biko

I don't think we are allowed to speak of current Irish numbers, weaponry etc

skink

no that is indeed in the public domain

The total number of soldiers in the pdf(permanent defence force) is 10,500

skink

ISAW wrote:

How much should the State be prepared to spend on the Irish Milirary and how does this relate to international standards?

also actually spending needs to increase, at present the irish government 0.9% GDP, which internationally is a joke! Luckily though our army is not a joke internationally and is well repsected by every other military they have worked alongside on UN missions.

ISAW

skink wrote:

no that is indeed in the public domain

The total number of soldiers in the pdf(permanent defence force) is 10,500

How does this break down by service?
How much money goes to each service?

Discount all equipment and vehicles. I am referring to manpower only. i.e. what is the wages bill of army/aircorps/navy and how many people work there.

I must laugh. I posted elsewhere about central admin of civil servant going up by 30 odd thousand and medical workers (seemingly not doctors and nurses) going up by 45,000 over the same period (1998-2005). Yet we seem to be cutting back on Gardai, Army etc. over the same period.

Well the gardai may well be getting 2000 or so new recruits with this reserve thing. How many Reserves are listed for the Irish Army in the public record? do they list navy etc.?

bizmark

What do we need a bigger or better funded army for? .....im not asking this because im some tree hugging hippy btw i love armys and historical battles but i see no real reason for us to have a large army.

skink

bizmark wrote:

What do we need a bigger or better funded army for? .....im not asking this because im some tree hugging hippy btw i love armys and historical battles but i see no real reason for us to have a large army.

Ok i have been trying to hold off replying to this as they useually just descend into petty little arguments! but i never said we needed a bigger army, i just think we should slightly increase spending on it to improve on the equipment and trainig which is recieved. It would make work safer and easier on the average soldier if the spening was increased.

Here is a break down of spending world wide and ireland ranks very low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_spending

Also remember the irish defence forces contirbute to the UN where it is highly respected, better funding would also mean better protection for the men serving overseas!

darkman2

ISAW wrote:

what is/should be the size of the Irish Military and how should it be divided into land/sea/air or home and abroad e.g. on UN duty or as part of new EU battle groups?

How much should the State be prepared to spend on the Irish Milirary and how does this relate to international standards?

The Irish defence forces totals 22,600 personel including the reserves.:)

babybundy

darkman2 wrote:

The Irish defence forces totals 22,600 personel including the reserves.:)

i taught it was more like 26000

Húrin

The military should be mushroomed in order to participate in more European and UN missions.

darkman2

babybundy wrote:

i taught it was more like 26000

If you include civilians its higher but its not that high.

Wolff

the real reason we dont have a larger army is we cant afford the extra deafness claims !

babybundy

:d :d :d :d :d :d :d

civdef

:d :d :d :d :d :d :d

Is the above the level of debate that can be expected on this forum?

babybundy

the smilies didn't come out properly thats why it looks crap

ISAW

Wolff wrote:

the real reason we dont have a larger army is we cant afford the extra deafness claims !

What? What did you say about fish? I thought you said something about fish? Maybe barbecues? Now how about my sunburn claim?

ISAW

skink wrote:

O

Here is a break down of spending world wide and ireland ranks very low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_spending

Not listed here is a better one:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

muletide

Wolff wrote:

the real reason we dont have a larger army is we cant afford the extra deafness claims !

I knew this forum would be hijacked by un-informed ignorant people who would just throw out any old tripe to up their post count.

This needs to be clamped down on by the mods

If you compare population size to military size you will see that we compare favourably with other EU states

Hagar

Please read the Charter.
There is a useful paragraph about use of the "Report post button".

Also I personally like this bit ...

Military Forum Charter wrote:

Banning will be swift and sudden. As they say “You will never hear the one that hits you”.

Hagar

babybundy wrote:

:d :d :d :d :d :d :d

This is your second spammy post reported tonight.

Shape up or ship out. Consider this a warning.

Wolff wrote:

the real reason we dont have a larger army is we cant afford the extra deafness claims !

If you want to start a thread about the deafness claims go ahead but they have nothing to do with this thread. Please don't thread spoil.

ISAW

muletide wrote:

I knew this forum would be hijacked by un-informed ignorant people who would just throw out any old tripe to up their post count.

This needs to be clamped down on by the mods

If you compare population size to military size you will see that we compare favourably with other EU states

So what? This smacks to me of the braueocrats who have thaken over the administration. Senior civil servants are making the budget decisions and many general staff dont challenge them because the whole thing is way to political.

all this "in line with the EU" or "best practice" really means nothing to me in this discussion. We should have the Military we need. If that means we needed more to police the border then so be it, If it means we need more specialised and a better equipped force for the UN or for an EU taksforce then so be it. I dont go along with the "Belgium spends this per capita snd Holland that and Luxembourg the other". SAdly Senior civil servants lilve in the "budget strategy " and "risk management" world and not in the "i am prepared to fight to defend my country" mould.

Gurgle

ISAW wrote:

We should have the Military we need.

Which, for a neutral country which has never been at war in its history is not an awful lot.

Rovi

Gurgle wrote:

Which, for a neutral country which has never been at war in its history is not an awful lot.

I'd be of the opinion that the value a Nation places on its Neutrality can be measured by its willingness to defend it.

Bam Bam

Since the establishment of the Irish free state and the Republic we have never had the ability to adequetly defend our neurality.

The majority of the people in the country could care less about the state of our forces, and its a crying shame.

darkman2

Bam Bam wrote:

Since the establishment of the Irish free state and the Republic we have never had the ability to adequetly defend our neurality.

The majority of the people in the country could care less about the state of our forces, and its a crying shame.

I agree, you would have thought Celtic Tiger cash woud have meant more investment but there just dosen't seem to be a will to do it.

Bam Bam

Bam Bam wrote:

Since the establishment of the Irish free state and the Republic we have never had the ability to adequetly defend our neurality.

The majority of the people in the country could care less about the state of our forces, and its a crying shame.

Thats the damn truth! You see other neutral countries like Switzerland and Sweden and they have fantasticaly equiped soldiers. Its to do with the whole perception of the Defence forces. In Ireland, it is seen as a luxury that the majority dosent care about.

The military isnt the flavour of the month and never has been in Ireland. If we had a respected Army (which we deserve) not only would funding go up but so would recruitment and retention.

Gurgle

Bam Bam wrote:

Since the establishment of the Irish free state and the Republic we have never had the ability to adequetly defend our neurality.

There are less than 5 million of us, on an island in north-western europe.
Who are we ever likely to have to defend ourselves against?
Who could we defend ourselves against if it came to it?

babybundy

Gurgle wrote:

There are less than 5 million of us, on an island in north-western europe.
Who are we ever likely to have to defend ourselves against?
Who could we defend ourselves against if it came to it?

internal treats, the IRA maybe as good as gone but there not the only terrorist on the island

Could you imagine if there was a major disaster in Ireland. We dont have the choppers for effective rescue missions or the manpower to evacuate large areas of the country.

Just look at all the major disasters around the world. Who do all the hard jobs, the necessary tasks? Its the military. If there was a major disaster we couldnt deal with it.

If youre talking about defense, Ireland has teeterd on being invaded. Just type Operation Green into wiki and see what it says.

darkman2

I know some may think this is crazy but, following on from the last post, I believe Britain almost certainly has a pre-made plan on how to occupy Ireland should it ever come to being in their interest to do so: i.e eventual war with another EU power etc etc and I think they would do it too. Churchill could have invaded Ireland during WW2, in fact I think its actually amazing that he didnt. We need defence because Global circumstances (as was discovered just before WW2) can change shockingly quick, and we should be as ready as possible for any aggression. Even if its only token in its gesture.

darkman2

darkman2 wrote:

I know some may think this is crazy but, following on from the last post, I believe Britain almost certainly has a pre-made plan on how to occupy Ireland should it ever come to being in their interest to do so

You are sort of right about Britain invading Ireland in WW2. I know that Dev was petrified at the thought. With the bombing campaigns by the IRA in Britain and their affiliation with the Wehrmacht, it was a real threat that Britain just deal with us harshly.

To reassure Britain that the country wasnt aiding the Germans he clamped down on IRA activity by interning thousands of members and sympathizers.
Britain was nervous that Ireland would/could be used as a back door entrance to
them, so Britain and Ireland agreed that if there was an invasion the Brits would come down over the border and help defend the South.

babybundy

wat i will say is i agree with wat dev said there will be an irish man behind every door bush etc

Rovi

babybundy wrote:

wat i will say is i agree with wat dev said there will be an irish man behind every door bush etc

Doing what, shaking his fist and using strong language?

We're a very long way away from the armed and trained citizenry the likes of Israel and Switzerland have.

Gurgle

darkman2 wrote:

I believe Britain almost certainly has a pre-made plan on how to occupy Ireland should it ever come to being in their interest to do so

Quite possibly true.
By the same token, Britain almost certainly has a pre-made plan to nuke Washington should it ever come to being in their interest to do so.

darkman2 wrote:

Churchill could have invaded Ireland during WW2, in fact I think its actually amazing that he didnt.

Then you badly need to follow this link:
World War 2

Churchill didn't invade anywhere during World War 2.
The invading was actually done by the Germans.

Ireland was neutral, or as neutral as possible considering our geographic location. Both sides requested Ireland to allow them use our seas and/or ports, and both sides were denied. I believe neither side truly considered invading Ireland at the time, as it would have put us on the other side. Remember this was only 2 decades after independance from Britain, and the Irish at the time had not grown up with the history of Nazis Germany. Ireland could have joined the war on either side.

darkman2 wrote:

We need defence because Global circumstances (as was discovered just before WW2) can change shockingly quick, and we should be as ready as possible for any aggression. Even if its only token in its gesture.

A token gesture ?
Unless we're invaded by Iceland, we might as well just torch Cork in protest.

It was the aftermath of WW2 that lead to the creation of the EEC in western europe, including among other things a common defence agreement. Ireland has its place in that arrangement.

War is no longer about churning the most men onto the battlefield, its more strategic now than tactical and small numbers of specialists are just as important as large numbers of grunts.

cushtac

The Defence Forces also has a significant role in Irish foreign policy & as such needs to be of the proper size & shape to fufill that role. That does not neccessarily mean an increase in size, it means having fully manned units with the proper equipment, training & logistical back-up for the tasks at hand.

babybundy

Rovi wrote:

Doing what, shaking his fist and using strong language?

We're a very long way away from the armed and trained citizenry the likes of Israel and Switzerland have.

ya i agree with that but switzerland has a differant setup but if you at it this way think of all the former members of the fca pdf and persons trained from other sources who are still medically fit to serve that would add in my opion 70-80,000 more bodies for a milica style force 10 men in home ground that they no well is more powerful that a platoon of well trained soldiers

Dub13

Some interesting reading on The German's & The British plans to invade Ireland in World War II.

Operation Green

Plan W

cushtac

babybundy wrote:

ya i agree with that but switzerland has a differant setup but if you at it this way think of all the former members of the fca pdf and persons trained from other sources who are still medically fit to serve that would add in my opion 70-80,000 more bodies for a milica style force 10 men in home ground that they no well is more powerful that a platoon of well trained soldiers

This is complete pie in the sky. Equipping, training & managing 70 - 80,000 people is a massive task that would take up lots of time & resources. You can't just put something like this together overnight, it would take years.

Your 10 men wouldn't just be facing a platoon, they'd be facing at least 10 times their own number. Their home ground would be cordoned off & searched methodically until they're flushed out & captured or killed.

Hogmeister B

146th! I'm quite proud of that.

I think that we are woefully under-equipped in terms of the ability to cope with a major disaster or incident on our soil or in our waters. It is also unacceptable that our troops abroad have to borrow Ukrainian helicopters to fly them around. I think investing in a fleet of perhaps 16 medium sized helicopters would be a good idea.

But i think it would be a waste to throw away billions on fancy but ultimately useless toys like fighters and submarines just cos we're rich now.

darkman2

I always believed, considering the geography of this country and the size of the population that a small milita style force would be far more effective and a much better deterrant along with a credible Navy as we have got a large sea area to patrol.

theCzar

Personally, I'm willing to spend only whats needed to maintain a small group at the highest level of technology and training. We don't need twenty thousand crack troops.

I believe in our commitment to the UN, and we should spend every penny required to give our troops serving abroad everything they need.

We don't need much of an airforce, for the same reason as we don't need much of an army, in the event of invasion by a military power, we can't afford an airforce that'll last more than a few minutes. As mentioned earlier in the thread however, we do need more helicopters for rescue and evacuation.

I believe we need a bigger navy, not missile cruisers or anything, just destroyers to patrol our national waters.

I'm not in favour of a militarised EU but I think its reasonable that the military of the member states should cooperate, if by creating an emergency response force they can reduce the EUs overall military expenditure by sharing resources, then that's fine. When Italian MEPs start making noise about a full European military, I run the other way.

We have no chance of being invaded, and references to theoretical attack plans and historical ifs and buts have no bearing whatsoever on our military needs at the moment. In the end, even if we were devote every penny to mobilising the whole country we'd be whipped by a real military power because inspite of the Celtic Tiger, we're a small country with a small GDP. The real threat of our time is terrorism, and you can't fight terrorism with tanks and a large army, you need inteligence and well trained rapid reaction units.

A lot of calls for a larger Irish army are born (I think) of an understandable desire to leave our lil ol' Ireland image behind, and show we we're all growed up and a real country. With guns. I thinks its an inferiority complex, and a potentially expensive one.

Ronan|Raven

Thankyou DUB13 to the link on Operation Green, it made for some very interesting reading. I find the part where Hitler apparently said

"..a landing in Ireland can be attempted only if Ireland requests help. For the present our envoy [assumed to be Dr. Eduard Hempel of the German Legation] must ascertain whether De Valera desires support and whether he wishes to have his military equipment supplemented by captured British war material (guns and ammunition), which could be sent to him in independent ships. Ireland is important to the Commander in Chief, Air, [Göring (Goering in English)] as his base for attacks on the north-west ports of Britain, although weather conditions must be investigated. The occupation of Ireland might lead to the end of the war."[7]

I find it interesting that he would only goto Ireland with the invitation from the Irish Govt.

Gurgle

Ronan|Raven wrote:

I find it interesting that he would only goto Ireland with the invitation from the Irish Govt.

We all know that Hitler was a dangerous murdering psychopath who planned to take over the entire world and enslave everybody except the Master Race.

But bear in mind historical fact #1

History is entirely written by the victors.

No, I'm not denying the holocaust before anyone starts the Nazi accusations. Don't believe everything you read.

Chakar

The Defence Forces are been modernised at this point in time, they have been buying new helicopters and armoured jeeps and carriers.They are modernising the equipment, machinery and the transport fleets.

I was in Baldonnel Aerodrome on a visit and I was shown around by the Brigadier General.It was very interesting and I'm sure in the forseeable future we will be able to cope with natural disasters more effectively.

Hogmeister B

Chakar wrote:

The Defence Forces are been modernised at this point in time, they have been buying new helicopters and armoured jeeps and carriers.They are modernising the equipment, machinery and the transport fleets.

Unfortunately it's a mere handful of helicopters that're being purchased- just 6. Finland and Norway, countries of similar population and GDP, are buying 20 or more, as are the Netherlands.

Dermington

Ireland has a military?

muletide

Dermington wrote:

Ireland has a military?

Good lad I see you are a great addition to this forum, welcome out from under your rock.

Gurgle

muletide wrote:

Good lad I see you are a great addition to this forum, welcome out from under your rock.

The Irish military is under a rock?

Dub13

Dermington & Gurgle have you two got anything to add to this forum...?

babybundy

the dauphins and gazelles are gone they only have the ec135 and alouetteIII
they will recieve 2 ec139's at the end of this year ,2 at the end of next year and there is a possiblity of 2 more the year after the 139's can carry 14 lightly armed soldiers or 9 fully equiped soldier

Silvera

While I am a fan of the Air Corps, I believe we badly need a bigger Naval Service.

At present the NS only has 8 ships to patrol an area eight times the size of Ireland! .......which is like having two Garda cars to patrol all of Ireland!:eek:

Belgium has c.16 ships to patrol a sea area a fraction the size of Ireland's.

We always seem to forget that we are an island nation!

No wonder the country is overrun with drugs ....smugglers can land shipments along our coast with little chance of being caught.
I'd bet that large haul of drugs seized in Clare was landed at night along the west coast?!