The Rapture coming?

Strokesfan

I'm not religious really but my mom is extremely and I just want to know has anyone else been talking about the rapture coming soon - I had a really interesing conversation with someone about it the other day where she explained that all these natural disasters and changes and even the number of the beast mean that we are very close to this phenomenen and that the key to this is a peace treaty between the US and Iran (which they are moving towards at the moment) - 3 years in, there will be some kind of sign and those who believe in Jesus will be raptured up?
I know the details are sketchy and badly explained here but would love to have a conversation with someone that knows so much more about it and would clarify?
Also found some parts of this theory extremely scary like durin the tribulations - only those with the mark of the beast will be allowed to buy and sell - they reckon it might be literal like a micro chip that they are already implanting in Austrailia. It's mad stuff if someone interprets it like this!!!

Pocari Sweat

What's all that then?

simu

Strokesfan wrote:

Also found some parts of this theory extremely scary like durin the tribulations - only those with the mark of the beast will be allowed to buy and sell - they reckon it might be literal like a micro chip that they are already implanting in Austrailia. It's mad stuff if someone interprets it like this!!!

You've heard the theory that barcodes have 666 hidden in them? It's fun but not true apparently: http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html

Fallen Seraph

I'd seriously advise not worrying about this. The rapture has been imminent since before 68 BC as is my understanding, so I think we're pretty safe.

Strokesfan

Yea I guess, it might be scaremongering or something but there seems to be a few people that have considered it...no doubt I will be left behind with the dog anyway - they had me well freaked out

robindch

> I just want to know has anyone else been talking about the
> rapture coming soon

Most religions have a 'doomsday' scenario of some kind, when the good are supposed to be seprated from the bad, the men from the boys, and the sheep from the goats, and the evil-present from the perfect-past or whatever. Christianity pilfered its own from pre-existing doom-laden notions belonging to the Mithraic, Jewish and Zoroastrian (etc) traditions.

With 20th century christian fundies of the north american flavour, this separation of the self-selecting "good" from the godless "bad" is called "the rapture" which happens when appropriately-configured christians will disappear into thin air and thence to heaven, leaving inappropriately-configured ones behind, doomed to burn in hell or suffer some other debilitating and permanent inconvenience. Further details on these very weird beliefs are at Rapture Ready and the Rapture Ready Bulletin Boards -- there, you can learn as much as you like about how one flavour of christians view their belief of their creator's view of themselves is, and frankly, it's scary stuff.

> Also found some parts of this theory extremely scary like durin the
> tribulations - only those with the mark of the beast will be allowed
> to buy and sell

This is absolutely standard fare for tribulationists and while it's quite upsetting over breakfast, there's basically nothing you can do about it and I'd seriously advise you to think about just sitting back and keeping quiet.

> they reckon it might be literal like a micro chip that they are already
> implanting in Austrailia. It's mad stuff if someone interprets it like this!!!

Nobody's planting chips in people in Australia, no matter how many issues of Nexus (or whatever) says so. I'm sorry to hear that your mum's picked up on this, because I've seen these kind of out-of-control religious beliefs cause all kinds of nasty havoc within families here in Ireland and elsewhere.

Black Swan

To calm your mum, you might refer to all the fears that were raised about turning the 2000th year by some groups. Well, it's over 6 years later, and although it's certainly not a perfect world, we are still kicking.

Strokesfan

Thanks everyone - my mom has gone in the direction of fanatical lately - fingers crossed that it's just a phase, I wandered in the last day (thank god I don't live there - no pun intended) and her friend asked me to hold hands for a prayer - I was literally held captive when she got her nu study bible out complete with post it's sticking out of it everywhere....

arctic lemur

A lot of people seemed to look to the book of revelation on 6-6-2006 .

BrianCalgary

Strokesfan wrote:

I'm not religious really but my mom is extremely and I just want to know has anyone else been talking about the rapture coming soon - I had a really interesing conversation with someone about it the other day where she explained that all these natural disasters and changes and even the number of the beast mean that we are very close to this phenomenen and that the key to this is a peace treaty between the US and Iran (which they are moving towards at the moment) - 3 years in, there will be some kind of sign and those who believe in Jesus will be raptured up?
I know the details are sketchy and badly explained here but would love to have a conversation with someone that knows so much more about it and would clarify?
Also found some parts of this theory extremely scary like durin the tribulations - only those with the mark of the beast will be allowed to buy and sell - they reckon it might be literal like a micro chip that they are already implanting in Austrailia. It's mad stuff if someone interprets it like this!!!

This is how it goes. Christ will come again. Although the time and date is unknown to all but the Father. The rapture is one possibility where all the believers are taken into Heaven before the events of the book of Revelation. Christians then miss the horrible stuff contained in Revelation. There are those who will come to repentance during the trials and tribulation, which last 7 years. At which point Christ returns and sets up a 1,000 year reign on Earth, when Satan is locked up. Peace and prosperity occur. Satan is loosed, a final battle ensues, God wins. At this point Christians get their desire, which is an eternity in the presence of God (Heaven) and those that want nothing to do with God get their wish, which is an eternity without Him, described as Hell. This viewpoint has been popularized recently by Tim Lahaye and his Left Behind series of books.

Another viewpoint is that Christ returns afetr a tribulation, no rapture, and sets up His 1,000 year reign.

Whenever I speak on the different views I always finish by stating that no matter what happens just make sure that you are right with God, if you are then you need not worry. Focus your life on serving Him in the plan He has for your life. You will have to go through garbage, but in th eend it is worth while.

goldilocked

Man, you have to go through the garbage alright.

If it's common knowledge whats going to happen, why bother going through the motions? If Satan exists, then I assume he believes in god. If he believes in God, then he must acknowledge a lot of the nonsense associated with this believe. Why would he fight at all?

I can't believe I'm even asking questions like this.

Brian, do you really believe this stuff?

Gurgle

goldilocked wrote:

If Satan exists, then I assume he believes in god. If he believes in God, then he must acknowledge a lot of the nonsense associated with this believe. Why would he fight at all?

That sounds dangerously like......LOGIC!

Kill The Heretic

BrianCalgary

goldilocked wrote:

Man, you have to go through the garbage alright.

If it's common knowledge whats going to happen, why bother going through the motions? If Satan exists, then I assume he believes in god. If he believes in God, then he must acknowledge a lot of the nonsense associated with this believe. Why would he fight at all?

I can't believe I'm even asking questions like this.

Brian, do you really believe this stuff?

Absolutely. Satan wants to get back at God and the best way to do it is to lead people astray. The book of Revealation is what gives me the assurance that in the end I'm going to be relaxed in His bosom.

goldilocked

So do you believe in a literal interpretation of the old testament?

P.S. I presume you means god's bosom and not satan's. BTW, does satan get a capital H for his his?

BrianCalgary

goldilocked wrote:

So do you believe in a literal interpretation of the old testament??

Where warranted. Some is literal based on it being a historical document. Some is prophecy which has to be taken as such. Other parts are poetry and devotion which are not literal. Are you referring to a particular book or passage?

goldilocked wrote:

P.S. I presume you means god's bosom and not satan's. BTW, does satan get a capital H for his his?

No Stan doesn't deserve the respect of a capital h, he spends his time deceiving friends that I love dearly and leading them straight into Hell.

goldilocked

I was referring to the stuff that you referenced (post rapture) which I just re-read and noticed that its okay to repent during the trials. Surely everyone will repent during the trials when it becomes obvious that your money was on the right horse. (Who would've known, there was so many runners).

goldilocked

Sorry Brian, no need to answer. Having read a few of your other posts (in p-articular the one about meeting Satan, and calling on the holy spirit to beat him off) gives me the info I was requesting.

Sapien

goldilocked wrote:

Sorry Brian, no need to answer. Having read a few of your other posts (in p-articular the one about meeting Satan, and calling on the holy spirit to beat him off) gives me the info I was requesting.

Ah yes. One of BC's saucier posts.

robindch

> Although the time and date is unknown to all but the Father.

Just out of interest -- would you (or anybody else who believes this) care to speculate why god won't say when he's coming back again?

I'm thinking here of the huge amount of time and worry that believers, over the last two thousand years, must have put into something that god knew wasn't going to happen. Why would a "loving" god do this? Seems malicious and wasteful to me.

Speculation, anybody?

BrianCalgary

goldilocked wrote:

Sorry Brian, no need to answer. Having read a few of your other posts (in p-articular the one about meeting Satan, and calling on the holy spirit to beat him off) gives me the info I was requesting.

Out of curiosity, what info where you looking for?

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

Absolutely. Satan wants to get back at God and the best way to do it is to lead people astray. The book of Revealation is what gives me the assurance that in the end I'm going to be relaxed in His bosom.

Let's look at the devils logic here, including what he must know.

Premises:
1. The devil, being a biblical character, would find it hard not to believe in the bible. So he knows he is going to lose from revelations.
2. His opponent is infinitely powerful.

Conclusion:
The devil is mentally inept.

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

Let's look at the devils logic here, including what he must know.

Premises:
1. The devil, being a biblical character, would find it hard not to believe in the bible. So he knows he is going to lose from revelations.
2. His opponent is infinitely powerful..

Couldn't agree more. Why anybody would follow him is beyond me.

Son Goku wrote:

Conclusion:
The devil is mentally inept.

On this point his stupidity is quite clear. On his ability to play on people's selfishness and their own desires as a tool to turn them away from God, he is quite brilliant. (Or those who buy into his lies are even stupider? )

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

On his ability to play on people's selfishness and their own desires as a tool to turn them away from God, he is quite brilliant. (Or those who buy into his lies are even stupider? )

How does the devil play on people's stupidity?
Does he actual influence their thoughts? Does he speak to them in their dreams?

What form does his influence take?

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

How does the devil play on people's stupidity?
Does he actual influence their thoughts? Does he speak to them in their dreams?

What form does his influence take?

He influences people through advice, he makes that which is harmful sound attractive. Our society today places a huge emphasis on sexual freedom. The lie is that happiness can be found in a promiscuos lifestyle. Whereas it leads to disease, unwanted pregnancies, abortions etc.

Another is the joys of alcohol which leads alcoholism and then to broken homes, and wasted lives. The same can be said for drugs. the young teen is told about how great a high is. Take a trip to east Vancouver and see the result of the lie. Satan delights in these lost and wasted lives.

Gurgle

BrianCalgary wrote:

Our society today places a huge emphasis on sexual freedom.

Always comes back to sex, doesn't it.
Its not murder, oppression, torture, racism, xenophobia or intolerance that are the root of the world's problems, its just sex.:rolleyes:

Bloody christians!

Rev Hellfire

The idea of Satan as evil is not strictly true. If we look back to Old Testament we see Satan acts as an agent of god but one who is opposed and distrustful of man. He is given implicit permission to tempt man. In a sense he is one of heavens most loyal angels.
It wasn’t until the new testament that the fact he operated by license was forgotten and he was cast in the light of absolute evil, maybe a victim of his own success. Since if you’ve been found out its better to shoot the messenger or at least cast him in a negative light.

Fallen Seraph

BrianCalgary wrote:

Our society today places a huge emphasis on sexual freedom. The lie is that happiness can be found in a promiscuos lifestyle. Whereas it leads to disease, unwanted pregnancies, abortions etc

What about the opposite which many Christians advocate? Sex solely for reproduction or even the slightly "looser" sex only with 1 person to whom you are married and no masturbation. This kinda sexual repression leads to mental problems. It'd seems by this logic that if you follow the devil's way, you end up infected and with more dead foetuses than you can handle, but if you choose the path of the lord you still get afflicted with pain, only this pain is the lesser of two evils...

BrianCalgary

Gurgle wrote:

Always comes back to sex, doesn't it.
Its not murder, oppression, torture, racism, xenophobia or intolerance that are the root of the world's problems, its just sex.:rolleyes:

Bloody christians!

Actually Gurgle if you read the whole post it also talks about drug and alcohol abuse.

Consider your final line as your first warning on breaking the charter. If you do not like Christians and can not operate in a respectful manner you can just stay away.

Respectfully,
Brian

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Our society today places a huge emphasis on sexual freedom.

I would have thought our society today places a huge emphasis on freedom, full stop.

Just because you are sexually free doesn't mean you have to have sex with anyone who knocks on your door.

Also TBH I think you have a far higher chance of wasting your life by rushing into marriage as you do rushing into sex. Is Satan at work when a young naive couple, who have no hope of lasting, marry each other, to be trapped for the rest of their lives? I find it hard to believe that is part of God's plan.

BrianCalgary

Fallen Seraph wrote:

What about the opposite which many Christians advocate? Sex solely for reproduction or even the slightly "looser" sex only with 1 person to whom you are married and no masturbation. ...

I know of no Christians that advocate the built in guilt of enjoyable sex within the context of marriage. There is a biblical text that says that the marriage bed can not be defiled. Please do not confuse biblical teaching with the teaching of a particular denomination or denominations.

Fallen Seraph wrote:

This kinda sexual repression leads to mental problems. It'd seems by this logic that if you follow the devil's way, you end up infected and with more dead foetuses than you can handle, but if you choose the path of the lord you still get afflicted with pain, only this pain is the lesser of two evils...

What kind of pain results?

Fallen Seraph

Compulsively having to tidy up, having to wash your hands excessively, you know, being neurotic.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

I would have thought our society today places a huge emphasis on freedom, full stop.

Just because you are sexually free doesn't mean you have to have sex with anyone who knocks on your door..

I agree. We are all free to make our own choices. The question is are you a slave to your sin? Or do you have freedom in Christ?

Wicknight wrote:

Also TBH I think you have a far higher chance of wasting your life by rushing into marriage as you do rushing into sex. Is Satan at work when a young naive couple, who have no hope of lasting, marry each other, to be trapped for the rest of their lives? I find it hard to believe that is part of God's plan.

Has the young naive couple put their lives into God's hands? If not they are making their own choice. And Satan's plan is to destroy that marriage.

Zombrex

Fallen Seraph wrote:

It'd seems by this logic that if you follow the devil's way, you end up infected and with more dead foetuses than you can handle, but if you choose the path of the lord you still get afflicted with pain, only this pain is the lesser of two evils...

I would imagine a much better 3rd way is to be free to follow your desires, but to do it in a responsible manner to protect yourself and your partners

It seems we are only discussing to rather extreme choices, either dont have sex at all until get married to spend the rest of your life with one person, or have sex with every tom dick and harry you can find until you are dying of syphilis. There is a middle ground.

The funny thing is, if a person is not mature enough to be able to handle sex in a responsible and safe manner, it is highly doubtful they are mature enought to know they want to spend the rest of their life with someone. Yet it seems like people here expect young people to be mature enough to do this, yet not mature enought to handle sex in a responsible manner.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

I would imagine a much better 3rd way is to be free to follow your desires, but to do it in a responsible manner to protect yourself and your partners

It seems we are only discussing to rather extreme choices, either dont have sex at all until get married to spend the rest of your life with one person, or have sex with every tom dick and harry you can find until you are dying of syphilis. There is a middle ground.

No middle gound at all. God is quite clear. Sex ouside of marriage is sin. And your statement at the begining "is to be free to follow your desires" is where the problem is with humanity our desires take precedence over all else. God says that your desires are to be put aside in favour of following Him.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I agree. We are all free to make our own choices. The question is are you a slave to your sin? Or do you have freedom in Christ?

It doesn't make sense to me that sex would be a sin. I don't think God (if he exists) would have made a natural, necessary, process, a sin. Or if he was going to make it a sin, I doubt seriously that he would make it so damn enjoyable. Sex is a necessary part of human development. It is enjoyable to encourage us to do it.

And if you assume God made nature, then this is all part of his plan.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Has the young naive couple put their lives into God's hands?

You are saying that if you put your life into God's hands he will make sure you don't want to kill your spouce because they keeps loading the dish washer wrong for the millionth time?

When you are young it is very hard to know, without experience of relationships, to know if you are really in love with someone, let alone if that is the person you want to spend your life with. I fail to see how God changes this.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

God says that your desires are to be put aside in favour of following Him.

Why?

Why would God make desire, then expect us to suffer by ignoring this natural desire? Why this make God happy? Why would he even care?

Doesn't make sense to me at all

Gurgle

BrianCalgary wrote:

God is quite clear. Sex ouside of marriage is sin

You're going to need to reference that.
Chapter and verse please.

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

He influences people through advice, he makes that which is harmful sound attractive. Our society today places a huge emphasis on sexual freedom. The lie is that happiness can be found in a promiscuos lifestyle. Whereas it leads to disease, unwanted pregnancies, abortions etc.

Right, so let me get this straight.

We have the ability to choose between God's path or not.
Tempting us off God's path is, not only our natural inclinations, but a supernatural entity several times more powerful than ourselves.

If we fall off the path, we get infinite punishment.

That sounds a little bit unfair to us, to be honest.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

It doesn't make sense to me that sex would be a sin. I don't think God (if he exists) would have made a natural, necessary, process, a sin. Or if he was going to make it a sin, I doubt seriously that he would make it so damn enjoyable. Sex is a necessary part of human development. It is enjoyable to encourage us to do it.

And if you assume God made nature, then this is all part of his plan..

Sex is a part of His plan and He has instructed us on how to use it. As the ultimate in enjoyable intimacy between married couples.

Wicknight wrote:

You are saying that if you put your life into God's hands he will make sure you don't want to kill your spouce because they keeps loading the dish washer wrong for the millionth time?

When you are young it is very hard to know, without experience of relationships, to know if you are really in love with someone, let alone if that is the person you want to spend your life with. I fail to see how God changes this.

I always load it wrong and after 21 years I'm still alive, I married a great gal.:) Must be the Irish in her.

I was 25 when I got married but I had always asked God to let me know when she came along. He did. I knew i was in love, still am in fact, but I choose to love my wife. Everyday I wake up and think of all the great things she does and all the reasons why I do love her. Unforunately we live in a selfish society where if we don't get what we want we sulk and run away. IMO people enter marriage for what they can get as opposed to what they can give.

So in ending, God was involved in our decision to get married and has been a part of our marriage ever since. We have had difficulties but divorce was never an option. The goal was always to come to a mutual solution. I think many marriages divorce is used as an easy way out at the first sign of disagreement.

ISAW

Gurgle wrote:

Always comes back to sex, doesn't it.
Its not murder, oppression, torture, racism, xenophobia or intolerance that are the root of the world's problems, its just sex.:rolleyes:

Bloody christians!

You miss the point. I would suggest that materialism is the greatest threat of the 21st century. Thus coveting oil, energy etc. is at the root of much of the problems you list. People murder oppress and torture etc. not just for personal pleasure but also to achieve a material goal.

Sex is an extension of this materialism. sex drugs etc. may be used for physical pleasure. As such they only satisfy material needs. Materialistic societies promote satisfying material needs whether that be food consumer products gambling sex etc.

robindch

> materialism is the greatest threat of the 21st century.

I'd counter with the sneaking suspicion that men in control of dangerous weapons and a Truth (with a capital 'T') for all the world are the greatest threat of the 21st century. Same as it's always been.

But I'm probably in a minority in that view -- people seem to find the small things much more threatening.

.

ISAW

robindch wrote:

> materialism is the greatest threat of the 21st century.

I'd counter with the sneaking suspicion that men in control of dangerous weapons and a Truth (with a capital 'T') for all the world are the greatest threat of the 21st century. Same as it's always been.

But I'm probably in a minority in that view -- people seem to find the small things much more threatening.

.

Do you believe science is the best explanation yet of how the world works? as such isnt it a truth for all the world. Indeed it even gave us the weapons. But is science such a threat to the world. I dont think so. Nukes or WMD are not evil developing them and firing them at people is the work of mankind not science.

Secondly lookat these fundamentalists who claim to have the "truth". Do you mot mean they seek material power over people? Christ claimed to have the truth but he didnt Lord it over people and threaten then to obey or else he would have a Jihad or Crusade. He didnt force anyone to follow his way. He didnt have to control them.

Rev Hellfire

Science offers the only truth as far as the working of the world and the universe is concerned, but like all knowledge it is amoral, it’s those who apply it that are the problem.
And I would say that at present blind unthinking religion represents the greatest danger we face in the 21-century. And knowledge is the weapon that is most effective when it comes to combating it; which explains the desire of those who push unthinking belief to subvert it.

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

Right, so let me get this straight.

We have the ability to choose between God's path or not.
Tempting us off God's path is, not only our natural inclinations, but a supernatural entity several times more powerful than ourselves.

If we fall off the path, we get infinite punishment.

That sounds a little bit unfair to us, to be honest.

It would be unfair if God didn't give us the opportunity to repent and be saved. He was even tortured and sacrifced Himself in order to provide the out. It is all there for us. TBH I don't find it particularly difficult to lead a Christian life. It has it's moments and I do stumble but I know someone is there to pick me up.

robindch

> Do you believe science is the best explanation yet of how the world works?

This disembodied "science" that religious people talk about is not a religion. It does not claim the infallibility of unprovable or meaningless Truths, nor do bits of it instruct its adherents to march to war against competing ideas, so in that respect, if it has to be compared as a philosophy of some kind, I'd imagine it causes far fewer deaths than religion.

The thing to realise is that, up to fairly recently, unhappy people could only murder in a fairly localized way without seriously threatening the species. With advances in technology, that's no longer the case. Examine the existing conflicts in the world: Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Thailand's and Nigeria's Islamists, Northern Ireland, 9/11, etc, etc -- the main actors are all motivated, at least in part, by religious justifications and the conflicts are certainly exacerbated by religious differences and red-faced religious conservatives railing against the dire "threat" of bikinis, gays, evolution, sex and so on. As nukes, chemical + biological etc weapons inevitably proliferate, the chances become greater and greater that some nutcase will gain access to some massively lethal weapon and will do something with it. And the chances are that he'll be egged on, at least in part, by religion.

And, being on-topic for a second, in the current US religious climate, around 20% of the US population seem to expect the "Rapture" (the end of the world) sometime in the next twenty years. How much more fatally stupid can you get than that? More on the politics of millenarianism here, here and here.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Sex is a part of His plan and He has instructed us on how to use it. As the ultimate in enjoyable intimacy between married couples.

I understand the intimacy part, but why do you have to be married for it to please God, and why do you have to be straight to get married. Thats the bit I don't get

There also seems to be a slighly worrying (almost insulting) underlying tone that homosexual couples aren't (can't?) be in love in the same way heterosexuals can be.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Unforunately we live in a selfish society where if we don't get what we want we sulk and run away. IMO people enter marriage for what they can get as opposed to what they can give.

That might be true, but surely experience helps us learn the difference. It is hard to get experience in a relationships if you aren't supposed to have serious ones (that include living together and sex) until you are suppose to find the "one", when you won't know she is actually the one until you have a bit of experience.

Its kinda like expecting someone to be able pick their favourate dish in a Indian resturant when they have never had Indian before, and then making them only ever eat that dish for ever more even if they find out they don't like it. You might be lucky and pick a dish you like, or you might make a very good guess and pick a dish you like, but it seems more logical to try a few dishes until you find the one you like the best, and then stick with that one.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think many marriages divorce is used as an easy way out at the first sign of disagreement.

Again that might be true, but you would wonder why stay married if you are unhappy. Considering how quickly people rush into getting married, is it any wonder that they don't last long. Is it just to please God, is him being happy better than the two married people being miseralable for the rest of their lives?

Zombrex

ISAW wrote:

Sex is an extension of this materialism. sex drugs etc.

Sex is a natural biological instinct. It is enjoyable to get us to do it. But by your logic sex is only bad if you hurt people to get it. If you aren't hurting people, or yourself, then what is the harm?

Lot of people are having perfectly normal healthy sexual relationships outside of marriage, myself being one such person (and most of my friends). That doesn't mean I'm having random one night stands with any girl that would have me (I wish!), I have sex within relationships, with people I care about.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

I understand the intimacy part, but why do you have to be married for it to please God, and why do you have to be straight to get married. Thats the bit I don't get?

I think it is because it not only pleases God, but it also intensifies and improves the act itself, when it happens in a loving permanent relational context

Wicknight wrote:

There also seems to be a slighly worrying (almost insulting) underlying tone that homosexual couples aren't (can't?) be in love in the same way heterosexuals can be.

True and the only way to know is by asking those who have experienced both. Those testimonies that I have read indicate that the heterosexual experience is much more fulfilling than the homosexual.

Wicknight wrote:

That might be true, but surely experience helps us learn the difference. It is hard to get experience in a relationships if you aren't supposed to have serious ones (that include living together and sex) until you are suppose to find the "one", when you won't know she is actually the one until you have a bit of experience.

I disagree. When the loving relationship is allowed to grow outside of a sexual one the couple become best friends which makes th ewedding night so much more spectacular. From a physiacl point of view sex would be great with anyone. It is the intimacy that adds so much more to it. I certainly didn't need to test the waters first to know that it would be great. And besides with nothing to compare it to, she is the greatest and I don't want to know otherwise.

Wicknight wrote:

Its kinda like expecting someone to be able pick their favourate dish in a Indian resturant when they have never had Indian before, and then making them only ever eat that dish for ever more even if they find out they don't like it. You might be lucky and pick a dish you like, or you might make a very good guess and pick a dish you like, but it seems more logical to try a few dishes until you find the one you like the best, and then stick with that one.

If I know that the dish I pick will be great and so enjoyable everytime and is always there, I have no reason to try others?

Wicknight wrote:

Again that might be true, but you would wonder why stay married if you are unhappy. Considering how quickly people rush into getting married, is it any wonder that they don't last long. Is it just to please God, is him being happy better than the two married people being miseralable for the rest of their lives?

I think they don't last long due to the idea that divorce is such an easy option if Idon't get what I want. If you work at it hard enough and give a little you would gain so much. Also love is a choice. I choose to love my wife. I could also choose to dislike her and concentrate on her annoying little habits. I choose to appreciate her annoying little habits and what they bring to our marriage. Besides I have many more annoyiances than she does.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think it is because it not only pleases God, but it also intensifies and improves the act itself, when it happens in a loving permanent relational context

I'd agree about the relationship, but I would dispute that marriage in any way improves sex.

BrianCalgary wrote:

True and the only way to know is by asking those who have experienced both. Those testimonies that I have read indicate that the heterosexual experience is much more fulfilling than the homosexual.

Interesting, although anecdotal.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I disagree. When the loving relationship is allowed to grow outside of a sexual one the couple become best friends which makes th ewedding night so much more spectacular. From a physiacl point of view sex would be great with anyone. It is the intimacy that adds so much more to it. I certainly didn't need to test the waters first to know that it would be great. And besides with nothing to compare it to, she is the greatest and I don't want to know otherwise.

Certainly stored up lust will give you a pretty spectacular first night - unfortunately, it makes no difference to what follows.

BrianCalgary wrote:

If I know that the dish I pick will be great and so enjoyable everytime and is always there, I have no reason to try others?

Hmm. I am extremely fond of porridge, but not that fond of it.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think they don't last long due to the idea that divorce is such an easy option if Idon't get what I want. If you work at it hard enough and give a little you would gain so much. Also love is a choice. I choose to love my wife. I could also choose to dislike her and concentrate on her annoying little habits. I choose to appreciate her annoying little habits and what they bring to our marriage. Besides I have many more annoyiances than she does.

All good points, but entirely unrelated to the question of heterosexuality or abstinence before marriage!

For myself, having had a number of serious relationships before getting married (6 years ago, having been together for 7 before that, and known each other for 18 years all told), I would argue that:

1. sex is a fundamental part of a relationship
2. the relationship is the fundamental part of a marriage

Therefore, if you don't have sex before marriage, your relationship is incomplete, and you are taking a big risk. This can be "compensated for" by ignorance, together with strong dedication to matrimony as indissoluble, but the result is not something I would promote as healthy. Personally I would very strongly recommend a sexual relationship, living together, and at least a 3-year relationship before marriage.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think it is because it not only pleases God, but it also intensifies and improves the act itself, when it happens in a loving permanent relational context

But loving permanent relational contexts can exist without marriage, as homosexuals have been proving for a long time (what they would call "life partners", since they can't legally get married)

BrianCalgary wrote:

Those testimonies that I have read indicate that the heterosexual experience is much more fulfilling than the homosexual.

I have to strongly disagree with you there.

Everything I know about my homosexual friends, who I can assure you are (or have been) very much in love, would contradict that idea. When you see have seen a man nurse, to the very end, another man who is dying a horrible death of bowl cancer then come back and tell me something about love between two men. I didn't even know them well (friends of friends), but I know what he did for his partner in his last days and I didn't need to know any more to know that that was "love"

BrianCalgary wrote:

I disagree. When the loving relationship is allowed to grow outside of a sexual one the couple become best friends which makes th ewedding night so much more spectacular.

Well I'm not sure how anyone would know that, since two people who are virgins on their wedding night don't know how "spectacular" sex could have been before marriage, and two non-virgins on their wedding night don't know what it is like to be virigns on their wedding nights.

BrianCalgary wrote:

And besides with nothing to compare it to, she is the greatest and I don't want to know otherwise.

Well I'm not just talking about sex. I'm talking about if this is someone that a person can spend the rest of their life with. The amount of relationships I've seen fall apart when two people move in together, or hell even go on holiday together for the first time, is amazing. The idea that you can know someone well enought to know you can get along with them for the rest of your life without ever really spending time in close proximity to them is rather naive in my view. You can't know someone till you really know them, and you can't really know them until you see the whole them, warts and all. You might of course realise yes this person is the person for me, but at the same time you might not, and it seems a rather silly risk to take when you are talking about something as serious as marriage.

BrianCalgary wrote:

If I know that the dish I pick will be great and so enjoyable everytime and is always there, I have no reason to try others?

But you don't know until you tried it

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think they don't last long due to the idea that divorce is such an easy option if Idon't get what I want.

But why would you stay in a marriage if it isn't what you want?

Gurgle

ISAW wrote:

I would suggest that materialism is the greatest threat of the 21st century. Thus coveting oil, energy etc. is at the root of much of the problems you list. People murder oppress and torture etc. not just for personal pleasure but also to achieve a material goal.

I disagree.
War, oppression and intolerance have been continuous features of human existance since the first time one group looked at another and said 'they're different from us'.
At various times that difference has been in skin colour, culture and values but by far the most common difference which leads to war has been religion.

ISAW wrote:

Sex is an extension of this materialism. sex drugs etc. may be used for physical pleasure. As such they only satisfy material needs. Materialistic societies promote satisfying material needs whether that be food consumer products gambling sex etc.

Again, I have to disagree.
Sex is millions of years older than materialism, and satisfies an entirely different drive in human beings. Materialism is about the future, the drive to gather stuff, to have what we want when we want it. Sex is the physical gratification of a physical urge.