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Hi all, we have some important news to share. Please follow the link here to find out more!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058419143/important-news/p1?new=1

RPA publish hybrid route proposals...

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,030 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Remember Bill that College Green is treated like the Holy Grail by Dublin Bus, who insist on routing just about as many buses as possible through it (not always their fault, they have lost a lot of terminal space to Luas etc.). For example, I sometimes use the 39 bus, a northside service, yet it trundles across the river to College Green before terminating at Hawkins St. This sort of nonsense means you see a lot more people milling about College Green waiting for and departing from buses that don't actually need to be there in the first place. The 39 used to remain entirely north of the river, terminating in a busy Abbey St Middle..............

    Look at Abbey St Middle these days-dead in comparison. It used to be an incredibly busy street which took some negotiation to walk along it's southern pavement (the Scientologists don't even prowl outside their shop anymore!). This was purely due to the bus stops which used to line it (many of which now line College Green/Dame St). If an alien had looked at Abbey St Middle a decade ago and used your logic, they'd have assumed it was an incredibly popular part of the city centre, that same alien visiting today would see the complete opposite! The bus stops can grossly mislead you into believing a particular street is a trip generator when it isn't.

    The RPA figures undoubtedly take account for bus passenger interchange at College Green (many times the number of buses of Stephen's Green). Worth bearing that in mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Bill McH wrote:
    You ask for examples of trip patterns which would be inconvenienced by the current plans. Well, let's say journeys to/from locations on the Northern DART line. People can currently travel along this line to Tara Street. The spire is 7 minutes walk away. The current proposals would require people, in order to get to the spire, to change at Docklands onto the LUAS. Or they could go to St. Stephen's Green and change onto the metro.

    A change for Luas at Docklands sounds sane to me. Or Pearse and travel the one stop to Tara St. if you really hate trams.
    Bill McH wrote:
    Both of those options would undoubtedly be longer and more inconvenient than the current arrangement

    The thing about networks is that you can't always get everywhere point-to-point. So if you're telling me that it may take an extra 8 minutes (walking time from Pearse to Tara St.) to get from Baldoyle to the Spire (for anybody that actually wants to be there), then I reckon that's a fair price to pay for the fact that a big wodge of Dublin 15 will now be able to halve their journey time to just about any city-centre location. I'm sure those that need to get to the spire will keep their Schadenfreude to themselves, since Tara St. will be directly served on that DART line...

    Bill McH wrote:
    Secondly, however, I firmly believe that it makes more sense to have the interconnector crossing with the metro at the Trinity stop. It is more efficient. This would probably mean that it would go under Dame Street or somewhere around the Temple Bar area.

    There's a snag involved there. Two, if you count the fact that such an alignment would leave the canal zone less well served. But to run the interconnector on an east-west alignment under Dame St. has you tunnelling right under Trinity College, and I'm not sure you could avoid some of the older buildings.

    Dermot


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Bill McH


    Winters, I for one am feeling a bit slow today. What are we to learn from the maps?

    Philip, you make some excellent points about the buses in Dublin. It is a real pity that so many of them pass through College Green. I suppose in the absence of an underground system, this is perhaps inevitable. Hopefully we'll move away from that when we have an underground line or three. In Frankfurt, probably the busiest U/S-Bahn station is Konstablerwache, right on the main drag. Above ground there's a tram line but only two bus routes travel anywhere near the station. (Interestingly enough, they share a stretch of road with the trams and the expected arrival times of both the next trams and the next buses are shown on the "monitor" (can't think of the word) at the tram/bus stop. It works well, though they are of course dealing with smaller numbers of trams/buses then we would be with the LUAS link-up).

    Middle Abbey Street is definitely a ghost street now, as you say. Maybe the same thing will happen with the College Green when the buses leave. Maybe. I suspect that there is enough going on within a couple of minutes walk of the Trinity stop to keep people wanting to go there. And wanting to go there in greater numbers than want to go to St. Stephen's Green. Although the LUAS link-up will not allow a perfectly fair comparison to be made between the two locations, because of the greater numbers of buses in the "Trinity" area (as you say), it may start to give some indications.

    It will though more than likely be too late. That bloody woman.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Bill McH


    mackerski wrote:
    A change for Luas at Docklands sounds sane to me. Or Pearse and travel the one stop to Tara St. if you really hate trams.

    The thing about networks is that you can't always get everywhere point-to-point. So if you're telling me that it may take an extra 8 minutes (walking time from Pearse to Tara St.) to get from Baldoyle to the Spire (for anybody that actually wants to be there), then I reckon that's a fair price to pay for the fact that a big wodge of Dublin 15 will now be able to halve their journey time to just about any city-centre location. I'm sure those that need to get to the spire will keep their Schadenfreude to themselves, since Tara St. will be directly served on that DART line...
    Mackerski, I had been asked to give examples of journeys which would be more difficult than they currently are. That was one example. It's quite true that continuing with the current arrangements would continue to inconvenience people in D15, Hazelhatch and a whole load of other places. That is why I am in favour of projects like the interconnector. (The interconnector through the "Trinity" area would leave northside DART passengers about 6 minutes from the spire and D15 passengers with loads of trains every hour to get to within 7 minutes of the spire. Everybody wins:p )
    There's a snag involved there. Two, if you count the fact that such an alignment would leave the canal zone less well served. But to run the interconnector on an east-west alignment under Dame St. has you tunnelling right under Trinity College, and I'm not sure you could avoid some of the older buildings.
    I would argue that the St. Stephen's Green route would leave the north city centre less well served. The metro will be going to St. Stephen's Green. It will eventually be extended, or at least, one would imagine that it will be extended. In that respect it should mean that the canal zone would be very well served. These things do take time. Unless you're Dubai, you can't just put in an underground rail network overnight. But the canal zone will, eventually be very well served, if we do things right.

    I'm not sure I get the point about the old buildings in Trinity. What's wrong with going under the road?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Bill McH wrote:
    I'm not sure I get the point about the old buildings in Trinity. What's wrong with going under the road?

    If you go under the road, you'll (probably) have to go under the buildings. We've already seen posts suggesting that the college authorities think ill of that idea and might fight it.

    Dermot


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Bill McH


    Oh yes, just to clarify. By "canal zone" I was working on the basis that Mackerski meant the area between, let's say, St. Stephen's Green and the grand canal. Rather than the whole area between the two canals. I hope this was correct.

    Pearse Street, College Street, College Green and Dame Street are all pretty wide streets. If the RPA man was correct in saying, effectively, that nothing is impossible with tunnelling, then these streets would hardly represent a problem.

    I don't know. Was he correct?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,751 ✭✭✭✭Victor




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,030 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Victor wrote:
    Is there a navigation to these maps?
    Go to dto.ie, navigate using the box on the left.

    travel information>>local area maps

    Then select what you need.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Bill McH wrote:
    Oh yes, just to clarify. By "canal zone" I was working on the basis that Mackerski meant the area between, let's say, St. Stephen's Green and the grand canal. Rather than the whole area between the two canals. I hope this was correct.

    That was the correct reading of my intentions. I had in mind the self-serving meaning of "those areas whose passengers would rather get off at Stephen's Green than College Green".

    Dermot


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Bill McH


    I mulled over this whole thing last night, as I do regularly.

    We've discussed the issue of "trip destinations", "trip generators" and so forth, and I think I'm slowly getting the hang of it. It may indeed be true that the "Trinity" area is projected to be so popular because of the number of busses which pass through there, and the connections which can therefore be made.

    What I'm missing, I think, is any statistical or other evidence that, on an East-West line through the city, that St. Stephen's Green would be a more popular "destination" than the "Trinity" area, thus justifying the diversion.

    I have never seen any such evidence.

    Perhaps one of the members of Platform 11, who I'm sure have discussed this, would be able to point me to such evidence. Or indeed Winters, who also seems to be well informed about the interconnector.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    "The south-east inner city remains a primary and growing destination."

    DTO: Platform for Change, Page 14.

    The route of the interconnector has been evaluated numerous times and I believe the current alignment has been chosen with factors such as constructability, catchment coverage, geotechnical, tunnelling restrictions, traffic disruption and trip demand as reasons.

    To mine out a station 180m long underground with buildings above would be very complex and expensive. There are not that many areas where it can be done with empty space above but Dame Street and St. Stephen's Green North are two such places that would make sense.

    St. Stephen's Green North is on higher ground (Dame Street is built where the Liffey walls used to be), work on St. Stephen's Green North would not cause as much traffic disruption as Dame Street, the DTO demand model shows St. Stephen's Green North to be better placed to serve the south-east inner city catchment and tunnelling radii would make it difficult to integrate with Pearse Station AND Dame Street.

    These are just some of the reasons however should you have any further questions and/or objections about this important project I suggest you contact the project office at Iarnrod Eireann.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    murphaph wrote:
    Note the dropping of Tara/Trinity Metrobest ;) We all told ya that's what they'd do now didn't we? :D Ah I'm only messin with ya man. I am happy we're seeing it materialise anyway.

    Don't count your chickens until the RPA hatches them Philip!

    The East/Central combination could involve Drumcondra and Hawkins Street as we've already learned that the central route's tunnel alignment under Trinity is problematic, while the East route via Hawkins Street was much less so.

    I quite like the public consultation process that's been happening with MetroNorth; it makes the general public feel that its view is important. One thing I hope isn't happening, however, is that groups such as Platform 11, "West on Track", or "Glasnevin on Craic" could be making submissions en bloc passing themselves off as genuine, impartial observers.

    If the metro is routed via Drumcondra along the hyrid route shown, I'd be quite happy, though a little disappointed for the people of Glasnevin who'll be deprived of their metro at Botanic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Winters wrote:

    These are just some of the reasons however should you have any further questions and/or objections about this important project I suggest you contact the project office at Iarnrod Eireann.

    Does anyone else find this statement condescending? It implies that Bill, or other people for that matter, who don't favour the interconnector's route are somehow ill-informed and, reallly, if only they knew better, they'd be in favour of it too, just like you.

    The "cult" of the interconnector lives on. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭अधिनायक


    How each of the three routes would pass under Trinity.

    metro1.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,030 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Metrobest wrote:
    Don't count your chickens until the RPA hatches them Philip!
    Fair point. I'll believe all this when I'm travelling on it!
    Metrobest wrote:
    The East/Central combination could involve Drumcondra and Hawkins Street as we've already learned that the central route's tunnel alignment under Trinity is problematic, while the East route via Hawkins Street was much less so.
    The bendy lines will be straightened. I have no doubt about that. The route in the central area will likely (IMO) be almost directly under Grafton street, under College Green and Westmoreland St and onwards.
    Metrobest wrote:
    I quite like the public consultation process that's been happening with MetroNorth; it makes the general public feel that its view is important. One thing I hope isn't happening, however, is that groups such as Platform 11 could be making submissions en bloc passing themselves off as genuine, impartial observers.
    Well not all of us P11 members agree on every little detail of this project either! We're not Borg metrobest :D I'm sure my submission focused more on things I'm personally interested in than others'. The RPA know I'm a member of P11 however. Agree that the consultation has been impressive so far.
    Metrobest wrote:
    If the metro is routed via Drumcondra along the hyrid route shown, I'd be quite happy, though a little disappointed for the people of Glasnevin who'll be deprived of their metro at Botanic.
    You can't keep everybody happy I suppose. I too would have prefered Glasnevin as it would have provided faster interchange for me personally (arriving from the Maynooth direction), but it appears to be technically/financially not feasible. Ho hum, Drumcondra will benefit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Metrobest wrote:
    One thing I hope isn't happening, however, is that groups such as Platform 11 could be making submissions en bloc passing themselves off as genuine, impartial observers.

    I take great offence to that comment. How dare you incinuate that my concerns are not genuine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    Yes, P11 votes early and often. I have just invested in a new photocopier and scanner and we'll be having a secret meeting at the weekend to show off our new bugging devices.

    Jesus wept.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    If I had dropped the "Platform 11" part would your sensitivity threshold have been lower? It seems like you were sitting on this board just waiting to be offended. Don't take offence.

    I note that Platform 11 in the past ran campaigns such as emailing TDs a template email to lobby for interconnector.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Metrobest wrote:
    If I had dropped the "Platform 11" part would your sensitivity threshold have been lower? It seems like you were sitting on this board just waiting to be offended. Don't take offence.

    You imply that I have some agenda for supporting Platfrom 11 and that giving my free time some how benefits me other than trying to get decent rail services? Care to explain how my opinion is not genuine or impartial and yours is?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    Actually, I havent read the board since last week, as i am in possession of an even sadder existance outside of this heap of garbage.

    And if you really want to know, I post more on the BB board here than this one, it's more realistic!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    paulm17781 wrote:
    You imply that I have some agenda for supporting Platfrom 11 and that giving my free time some how benefits me other than trying to get decent rail services? Care to explain how my opinion is not genuine or impartial and yours is?

    Here. I edited it.
    One thing I hope isn't happening, however, is that groups such as Platform 11, "West on Track", or "Glasnevin on Craic" could be making submissions en bloc passing themselves off as genuine, impartial observers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    And now you're picking on Glasnevin on Craic! Will it ever end???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    That does not answer my question. Do you understand why people join lobby groups? It is to have a stronger voice.

    How is my opinion not genuine or impartial and yours is?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    And now you're picking on Glasnevin on Craic! Will it ever end???

    Sallys Gap on Nobber


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    Because Paul, dont you know you're working to a hidden agenda..... it's very well hidden, cos even I dont know what it is. I personally believe there are only four people in P11 and one of them (hello t21) left like Roger Walters from Pink Floyd...............


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    At least Platform 11 have open meetings and elect their officer board. Sometimes changes of leadership and membership create policy shifts and original members leave. This does not invalidate P11, rather it shows an ability to adapt to changing circumstances.

    For instance, some might ape those who would compare to P11 to John Kerry - "I was against the interconnector before I was for it" and "I was against the metro before I was for it", but that would be to ignore the fact that both projects are now quite different to the plans originally put forward, and I don't think it's unfair to suppose P11 had something to do with that.

    Disclosure - since I don't live in Ireland at present I have opted to not join P11. If I moved back to Ireland I would join like a shot as I feel they have a valuable role to play and probably more geared to transport users than the Transport Users Council which seems to be stuffed with the usual suspects. I don't always agree with their style but at least I could raise that at general meetings or vote for new officers or run against officers I didn't like. I wouldn't have to be a county councillor or a banker or a hotel magnate or a cleric before I could have an opinion on the public transport I used.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭MarkoP11


    The RPA run the Metro show, they have chosen to have a very very public consultation for the metro. Many hundreds if not thousands of submissions have been made and numerous formal meetings have been held, some on request by effected parties some at the direct invitation of the RPA. I have been to RPA offices in Parkgate Street by invitation, why because the RPA want to listen to people and to discuss their ideas and to defend their own, its constructive and refreshingly honest.

    End of the day a decision will be made which will require a balance between cost, capacity, integration, constructabilty and so on. This is complex stuff and unless you know how the pieces fit together its easy complain about decisions which may appear incorrect. The end result won't satisfy everyone but overall I think we (As in the citizens of Ireland) are going to get a very decent bit of infrastructure. The Metro has evolved and changed and in its current form its starting to look very good

    Now O/T
    Platform 11 is a fully democratic organisation, with a written constitution and is a member of the European Passengers Federation which is consulted at a EU level. Myself and my committee members are well known, we are real people and we do exist there is nothing covert many staff stop and talk to us as do many of the managers, we have met a large number of Kildare and Newbridge commuters in person, I'm well known at public inquiries as well and on a regular enough basis I do talk to management and discuss progress on matters. We hold AGM meetings for members in the normal manner, indeed the 2006 AGM is next Saturday and includes a presentation from the RPA, http://www.platform11.org/news/news.php?year=2006&no=12.html (shameless plug but it proves the point)

    Once again Metrobest I suggest you post in the conflict of interest thread, everyone else has, put us out of our misery by telling us all for once and for all of any conflicts of interest eg. having worked on public transport project in Dublin or not as the case may be. I've been upfront as many others have been return the compliment. I know Victor and the other mods don't what a repeat of the flamewar that resulted in the past so thats all I'm going to say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,751 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    this heap of garbage.
    OI!
    Sallys Gap on Nobber
    On topic.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    Victor wrote:
    On topic.

    alright, Nobber=on=Locomotive then.


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