Irish = Joke

This is not a ''i hate irish, i think its stupid'' thread.This is a valid observation about the last two days.

First of all out of 92 students in my year only 3 did higher level.This morning for Paper 2 people were leaving after 15 mins - not a joke.The hall was empty after 45 mins.Surely something has to be done.

I like fine Gaels policy of making irish mandatory til the Junior cert and then an option after that because nobody cares about it( im still not going to vote for them)

I dont think mary hanafin and the education department realise how ****in serious this problem is

whassupp2

same sort of situation in my skool. bout 20 in our centre of which 3 did higher level. 1st of the ordinary students left at 10. All gone at 11 almost an hour before exam finished leaving just 3 higher level students that struggled to finish paper in time. I personally dont mind the language but dont think it should be compulsory.

grimloch

Pretty shocking amounts of people walking out here too.

Faerie

Well I don't think Irish will ever stop being mandatory because the country is full of fanatical nationalists!
But the course seriously needs to be looked at.
Think about it, what have you spent most of the past two years doing? All most people do are the poetry and the stories because there are so many of them and which, let's face it aren't even that good! An Chead Drama is just a copy of Shakespeare! More time should be spent actually teaching us the language and learning how to speak it rather than testing our learning off skills!

smemon

yeah, waste of time.

a language that's dying a slow stubborn death. the world speaks english so we should just focus on that. imagine if we couldnt speak english - the internet would be practically useless!

themole

Those are worrying numbers alright.

What part of the country are these schools of which you speak?

I went to St Marys in Galway and did my LC in 99.

Can't quiet remember the numbers,

there was prob about 100+ in my year, and I would guess that at least 1/3 did higher level. There were at least 2 if not 3 classes.

I did pass btw.

grimloch

I was in Dublin and the first people started leaving after about 45 minutes. There was then a pretty stream of people leaving for the next forty minutes.

Dave Larkin

Seriously? People were leaving in everyone else's schools too? I thought our school was the only one. I was shocked at the ordinary level people leaving after 30 minutes. Only 15 people in my year do higher level Irish.

Yep, something needs to be done!

TerrorFirmer

themole wrote:

Those are worrying numbers alright.

What part of the country are these schools of which you speak?

I went to St Marys in Galway and did my LC in 99.

Can't quiet remember the numbers,

there was prob about 100+ in my year, and I would guess that at least 1/3 did higher level. There were at least 2 if not 3 classes.

I did pass btw.

I only did my leaving two years ago and there was almost half the year doing higher level (myself included), of which, no-one left before an hour or so....I cannot believe the situation would go so downhill in such a short time. I agree with the sentiment thats its absolutely pointless making it mandatory but as for the academic side of it, as stated there was no problems with it as a subject other then the fact we all hated it when I did the LC 2 years ago...;)

Ballerina

i just wonder WHEN ARE WE EVER GOING TO NEED TO KNOW HOW TO SAY PATHETIC FALLACY IN IRISH!!!(this angers me much...)ugh i LOVE irish and im well able to hold a good converation but i was still up til all hours last night and up early this morning trying to learn about poems and stories and i probably wont get an A.its absolutely ridiculous!i think irish should definitely be compulsory because everyone should be able to talk the language of our country but we DO NOT need to know stupid things about poetry when having a conversation.i went to the gaeltacht for 3 weeks and i was able to talk irish very well after it but people go to school for 12 years and still cant speak it....theres something wrong with that......

grimloch

I'm just going to add that I don't really have a problem with doing Irish but the cirriculum really sucks balls.

If they axed some of the shite poetry and stories and focused a bit more of the oral element of the subject I'd have been much happier.

themole

If i had my way the course would be restructured.

The honours course would have literature and stuff, like it does now.

The pass course would be focused on speaking the language to a higher level than is currently required by pass.

I would also not use Irish for points at all.

GrumPy

I left after 32minutes along with about 20 others, out of about 35 sitting the pass paper. Nobody, including me, gives a sh!t.

1. I dont need it for my course
2. I dont like Irish
3. It's my weakest subject, therefore 7th, which I wouldn't be counting anyway even if I did do well
4. The fact that you must do Irish pisses most people off
5. I would never use it again
6. Did I mention I dont need it? and it's my 7th choice anyway?

DonaldDuck

There was 80 in my exam centre(well 2 mixed togheter) and there was 11 people doing honours.First person left at 10,most people were gone by 10 30

Edit:Wow my typing was off in this post

smemon

i dont like irish, i dont need it, i'll never use it again.....

it doesnt stop me playing for pride you wont find me 'giving up' by walking out after 30mins.

what about 14 years of learning to speak it, 9/10 teachers maybe. i wasn't going to flush all that down the toilet and show a complete lack of respect for my teacher and my country's language.

get on with it, the exam isn't going to be stopped just because you walk out.... irish results won't be cancelled. you dont walk out of an exam you've spent 6 years preparing for after half an hour feeling proud of yourself... :rolleyes:

pride is the crutch of the insecure.

NADA

Ballerina wrote:

i just wonder WHEN ARE WE EVER GOING TO NEED TO KNOW HOW TO SAY PATHETIC FALLACY IN IRISH!!!(this angers me much...)ugh i LOVE irish and im well able to hold a good converation but i was still up til all hours last night and up early this morning trying to learn about poems and stories and i probably wont get an A.its absolutely ridiculous!i think irish should definitely be compulsory because everyone should be able to talk the language of our country but we DO NOT need to know stupid things about poetry when having a conversation.i went to the gaeltacht for 3 weeks and i was able to talk irish very well after it but people go to school for 12 years and still cant speak it....theres something wrong with that......

YOu see that's the problem. Most people have realised that it is not there language and don't want it. Do don't force it on them. It's the same as forcing us to do Japanese really.

GrumPy

smemon wrote:

you dont walk out of an exam you've spent 6 years preparing for after half an hour feeling proud of yourself... :rolleyes:

pride is the crutch of the insecure.

I dont feel proud of myself, but I dont give a sh!t about Irish anyway.

GrumPy

NADA wrote:

It's the same as forcing us to do Japanese really.

Ehh no :rolleyes: If they forced us to learn japanese at least if we wanted to do well, we could actually use a spoken language. Whats the pop of Japan? Whats the pop of a few smelly old west coast counties (were it is already practically dead tbh) in our small, european island of Ireland?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ballerina wrote:

think irish should definitely be compulsory because everyone should be able to talk the language of our country

Now here's your problem in a nutshell: you're saying that people should be FORCED to learn it. Has such a tactic ever worked? What's worng with getting people to choose it for themselves?

themole

Irish GrumPy wrote:

I dont give a sh!t about Irish anyway.

I was the same way when I did my LC.

Over time your attitude will change, as mine has.

When you go to other countries people find it hard to beleive that you can't speak the native language of your own country.

I am really rather ashamed of the fact that my Irish is ****.

willowmegs

I know more Spanish than Irish

Rob30888

Any liking I had for Irish as a result of the Gaeltacht has been thoroughly crushed by that joke of a course. Is it wrong I'm so thrilled at never having to do it again and hoping it dies a tragic death?

themole

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Now here's your problem in a nutshell: you're saying that people should be FORCED to learn it. Has such a tactic ever worked? What's worng with getting people to choose it for themselves?

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

Wez

themole wrote:

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

History isn't mandatory.. But it is interesting..

English, you need to get through life.. (writing letters etc)

Higher level maths is used for people who want to go and use that kinda stuff in college.. Nobody's forcing you to do higher..

themole

The basic point I am making is this.

When you are doing your LC you are not atcually in a position to fully reaslise what you should be studying.

The same thing as in college courses some subject are mandatory and other optional, but this decision is not made by the student but by the academic board of the Department/school

I am still of the belief that everone learnign "some" Irish is better than some people learning none.

Rob30888

themole wrote:

The basic point I am making is this.

When you are doing your LC you are not atcually in a position to fully reaslise what you should be studying.

The same thing as in college courses some subject are mandatory and other optional, but this decision is not made by the student but by the academic board of the Department/school

I am still of the belief that everone learnign "some" Irish is better than some people learning none.

It's not so much the learning of the language, but what the focus is on, ie. the ****e poetry and prose

themole

Wez wrote:

English, you need to get through life.. (writing letters etc)

The standard of English which is required for "basic" everyday use ,IMHO, would be no higher than 2yd year.

Do I still think people should study literature etc, Yes.

We should be striving to learn more in school, not less.

smemon

yeah themole speaks sense.

because we're young and rebelious, challenge everything that looks/sounds stupid, we inevitably attack any subjects which are open to attack.

i dont 'hate' irish, even though i might say it. i'll regain my love for it over time once all the pressure is off and im not being examined on it.

i'd love if irish was dropped and chainsawed from school, it would make it more valuable to me having done it. my grandchildren would be fascinated by 'real irish' when i string a few sentences together 50 years down the line

themole

Rob30888 wrote:

It's not so much the learning of the language, but what the focus is on, ie. the ****e poetry and prose

True.

As I said in a previous post the system should be changed to focus more on the speaking the language. With the option to do a higer level course which would still include the Irish Literature parts of the course.

Wez

I'm not saying you're completely wrong altogether, just they seemed to be bad examples..

I do think that if Irish was a choice it would do better.. I like doing irish, but the way it's done is a joke..

themole

smemon wrote:

i dont 'hate' irish, even though i might say it. i'll regain my love for it over time once all the pressure is off and im not being examined on it.

I can guarantee this will happen.

It gets usefull when trying to speak about nice foreign birds. That was deffo usefull last night. Me and my Irish friends were in stitches, while all the french friends of mine didn't have a clue what we were on about. A small taste of their own medicine since I don't speak french

themole

Wez wrote:

I'm not saying you're completely wrong altogether, just they seemed to be bad examples..

Possibly

I was more trying to get across the idea that not everything we learn can be seen a directly applicable to our everyday lives. But you cannot underestimate the advantage of knowledge. You can't always appreciate it when you are being "forced" to learn something.

Wez wrote:

I do think that if Irish was a choice it would do better.. I like doing irish, but the way it's done is a joke..

I would agree that the system needs to be radically changed.

whassupp2

I dont think the structure of the leaving cert can change until matriculation requirements chane. For exampe i hate french. its not compulsory but in order to get in to any university (except UL I think) in this country i must pass it. The same can be said for irish, english and maths. People entering fifth year should not be forced to do any one subject but should be made aware of the consequences of not picking it. I have no problem with college requirments if those requirements are directly related to the course. eg. maths for engineering but who needs french for engineering really???? (i also not the whole possibility of studyin and workin abroad)

themole

whassupp2 wrote:

People entering fifth year should not be forced to do any one subject but should be made aware of the consequences of not picking it. I have no problem with college requirments if those requirements are directly related to the course. eg. maths for engineering but who needs french for engineering really???? (i also not the whole possibility of studyin and workin abroad)

The problem is people change their minds.

Thats why the current system is so open.

whassupp2

themole wrote:

The problem is people change their minds.

Thats why the current system is so open.

I realise that but you have a very good idea if you hate a subject such as irish after junior cert. you have no intention of ever going near a course relating to irish and have no desire to follow it to LC. then wjhy should you be forced to do it????

By the way i think irish should be compulsory to Junior Cert and optional for LC.

Ballerina

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Now here's your problem in a nutshell: you're saying that people should be FORCED to learn it. Has such a tactic ever worked? What's worng with getting people to choose it for themselves?

no no you dont get my point.i went to the gaeltacht and was never forced to learn it but grew to love it and now im practically fluent (and damn proud:D ) what im saying is there are SO many ways to teach people a language but the department have got it all wrong when it comes to irish


this is a bit of a sticky subject that we're never all going to agree on so theres not really much point to this thread...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

themole wrote:

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

Ok, firstly.... Read. Read my post. Read your reply. See if you notice a connection between the two, because I didn't.

Secondly, YOUR point: People use these subjects more than they use Irish. Completely unrelated to my original point, but you asked.

Thirdly, MY point: If you want people to learnt it, allow they to enjoy it by choosing it. Don't teach them to hate it by forcing it.

whassupp2

Ballerina wrote:

no no you dont get my point.i went to the gaeltacht and was never forced to learn it but grew to love it and now im practically fluent (and damn proud:D ) what im saying is there are SO many ways to teach people a language but the department have got it all wrong when it comes to irish


this is a bit of a sticky subject that we're never all going to agree on so theres not really much point to this thread...

I agree. like irish too but SEC (aka Mary Hanafin) have it all wrong

GrumPy

themole wrote:

I am really rather ashamed of the fact that my Irish is ****.

Not gonna be ashamed myself buddy, I'd rather be able to speak russian or japanese ffs,m because at least then I could use them :rolleyes: How many people speak japanese? how many still speak Irish? I rest my case. Irish is dead, after junior cert level it should be optional.

melekalikimaka

NADA wrote:

YOu see that's the problem. Most people have realised that it is not there language and don't want it. Do don't force it on them. It's the same as forcing us to do Japanese really.

Its the same as Japanese??? Good thing deabating isn't mandatory eh?

You'll regret not learning it in years to come I assure you, it's our heritage, it's our own language, you claim that Irish isn't and Irishmans language makes no sense, it may not be our first spoken language but its our countries native language and well in the end its your choice to dismiss it but I guess thats your choice, alot of my friends were of the same mentaility and regret it now

melekalikimaka

themole wrote:

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

any engineering course in the country, has higer level maths as a requirement(bar one or two), define your understanding of the term 'use'?

layke

Back when I did the LC in 2000, I didn't even go to my Irish exam because I knew i'd fail. God I hated being force fed that tripe since I was a nipper.

Looking back, I am know in a nice comfy job that pays well, Irish has never been or never will be a factor in my life. The only time I have ever felt bad about not knowing some is when i'm on hols and some one asks me to speak a bit of it.

Oh and as for everyone leaving after 30 mins, people have been doing that since my day. The level of Irish had slowly and surely been getting worse over the years and hopefully one day a minister will have the balls to stop all the compulsary lark.

themole

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Ok, firstly.... Read. Read my post. Read your reply. See if you notice a connection between the two, because I didn't.

Secondly, YOUR point: People use these subjects more than they use Irish. Completely unrelated to my original point, but you asked.

Thirdly, MY point: If you want people to learnt it, allow they to enjoy it by choosing it. Don't teach them to hate it by forcing it.

melekalikimaka wrote:

any engineering course in the country, has higer level maths as a requirement(bar one or two), define your understanding of the term 'use'?

Sometimes it is better for you to learn something, regardless of your opinions on the subject.

Most people will not argue that say, Maths is important.

But when it comes to other subjects/topics that are just as important, but maybe less "practical" there is less consensus.

I beleive that subjects such as History, English and Irish are worthy of study even if you will not use them.

You have to decide what the leaving cert is supposed to be.

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

It is trying to server both purposes. That is why it has some stuff which you can argue you will never need, ie Irish, or higher level maths if you are not going to college.

It comes down to this. Sometimes you have to "force" people to do certain things otherwise they won't out of pure lazyness. In this case, Irish as a subject.

melekalikimaka

themole wrote:

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

its an entrance exam to college, i don't think it was ever meant as an idication of your level of learning no way can a 3 hour exam evaluate someone like that, its how much stuff copy from books(english is an exeption obviously)

themole

I would just like to give a short explaination of my views on the current subject.

I am crap at languages.

I did pass Irish and French for my leaving cert.

At the time, 1999, if I had had my way the only subjects I would have done would have been Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Mechanical Drawing.

I went on to do Electronic and Computer Engineering in NUIG. During this time I felt people doing arts were wasting their time on a "crap" degree with no use.

I am currently doing a PhD in Computer Science in UCD.

My views have changed since my since secondary school and alod since my early days in college.

I am now of the view that the other subjets studied during the leaving cert were indeed of value. Even Irish which I hated and was crap at. I am still glad I was forced to do it, becasue if given the choice I wouldn't have done it. So I am glad for what little Irish I have now.

I have also changed my attitude towards Arts and I am getting more interested in History, particularly Irish history. I also would like to improve my Irish.

So, thats where my views come from

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

themole wrote:

Sometimes it is better for you to learn something, regardless of your opinions on the subject.

Most people will not argue that say, Maths is important.

But when it comes to other subjects/topics that are just as important, but maybe less "practical" there is less consensus.

I beleive that subjects such as History, English and Irish are worthy of study even if you will not use them.

You have to decide what the leaving cert is supposed to be.

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

It is trying to server both purposes. That is why it has some stuff which you can argue you will never need, ie Irish, or higher level maths if you are not going to college.

It comes down to this. Sometimes you have to "force" people to do certain things otherwise they won't out of pure lazyness. In this case, Irish as a subject.

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

Also, the leaving cert is neither an indication of learning or an entrance exam. I know hundreds of very intelligent people, but not nessecarily intellectual. What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English? History? Or art?

The idea that you have to force someone into learning something is offensive and wrong. Irrespective of lazyness or other excuses, do you really think something worthwhile is going to be achived by duress?

My views come from eperience as well.
They tried it on me, I rebelled. Like many others. I spoke little or no Irish and am proud of it. Proiud of having stood up to someone who told me I should be forced to do something, not doing it, and still tyurning out ok. My little way of saying FUCK them. They are wrong.

Feral Mutant

Out of about 80 or 90 people in my year 8 did higher level irish and 7 stayed till the end.
I personally don't like the language and probably will never use it again, odds are cos it's compulsary.
People are contrary like that. It's the same with voting, practicing religion . . . etc. Tell someone they can't do something and they'll die for the right to do it. Tell someone they can do something if they want and they probably won't bother.

themole

melekalikimaka wrote:

its an entrance exam to college, i don't think it was ever meant as an idication of your level of learning no way can a 3 hour exam evaluate someone like that, its how much stuff copy from books(english is an exeption obviously)

If you go to college then yes it acts like an entrance exam.

But if you don't go to college or persue any other form of higher learning it is the end of your education. In this case it is an indication of what you have learned.

themole

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

I was alluding to the fact that not all knowledge finds a practical application for all poeple.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

It doesn't. If they can come up with a way of testing that then i'm sure one day there will be a test on it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English?

As far as i'm aware English is still madatory.

NADA

The point of that post is that Irish is not our native language. Yeah we live in ireland but English is my mother tongue and always will be.

Conor h

Anybody who thinks learning their native language shouldn't be cumpolsory needs to seriously consider what they're saying!