The Pope and Hitler Youth etc.

arctic lemur

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education. Yet he is hoping that people will exonerate his past actions by doing things like visiting Auchwitz (last week) etc. Yet he has the nerve to treat homosexual people with disdain, arent we all loved in the eyes of God?

His writings and statements go so far as to describe homosexuality as an “intrinsic moral evil” that should be treated rather than accepted.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

Cantab.

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education. Yet he is hoping that people will exonerate his past actions by doing things like visiting Auchwitz (last week) etc. Yet he has the nerve to treat homosexual people with disdain, arent we all loved in the eyes of God?

His writings and statements go so far as to describe homosexuality as an “intrinsic moral evil” that should be treated rather than accepted.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

Sigh.

I don't know what annoys me more: you, or the historical slopiness with which you describe Pope Benedict's youth.

If the leader of the Catholic Church bothers you so much, why take such an interest? I wonder would you slate the Dali Lame for his well-known quote where he says that "From a Buddhist point of view, ... [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct."?

Or maybe, you're just a neo-liberal Independent News Ltd. reader on an anti-Catholic rant?

BrianCalgary

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education. Yet he is hoping that people will exonerate his past actions by doing things like visiting Auchwitz (last week) etc. Yet he has the nerve to treat homosexual people with disdain, arent we all loved in the eyes of God? ???

Yes we are all loved in the eyes of God. However there is sin that God detests. He detests my sin, He detests Cantabs sin He also detests your sin. There is not one sin that is worse than another, they are all just that: sin.

Isn't it great that God has given us provision to be forgiven for those sins? I have been forgiven mine. There are homosexuals that are sinning, there are heterosexuals that are commiting sin. God will forgive them all, if they repent and do what they can to turn away from the sinful life that they are leading.

Homosexuality is at the top of the list right now, because frankly it is in my face. I know some homsexual folks who never discuss their sexuality. But the ones in the media seem to want to dispay their sexuality all over the place. I don't want to know what anyone does in their bedroom. Hence it is these people that you would ewant to know why they have this need to display it for th eworld to see? hence:

arctic lemur wrote:

His writings and statements go so far as to describe homosexuality as an “intrinsic moral evil” that should be treated rather than accepted.

arctic lemur wrote:

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

Yes. What is the purpose of sex? Is it self gratification or is it for the giving of pleasure to another of the opposite sex for the pupose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner. God created sex for this reason, and the bonus is that we get gratification too. What a great God. Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered. As is anything that God created and is distorted.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes. What is the purpose of sex? Is it self gratification or is it for the giving of pleasure to another of the opposite sex for the pupose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner. God created sex for this reason, and the bonus is that we get gratification too. What a great God. Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered. As is anything that God created and is distorted.

Does it actually say that in the Bible, Brian? Or is it a read-between-the-lines?

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

Does it actually say that in the Bible, Brian? Or is it a read-between-the-lines?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Read between the lines on the basis of passages relating to sex and marriage.

Dirk Gently

so BrianCalgary, I take it you approve of promoting hate towards gay people. They shouldn't be allowed media access and should just be hid away out of sight?

To the OP, the links with Nazis don’t end with the current pope (who was one of them). In 1936 the catholic church assured Hitler that Catholicism and Nazi ideology were compatible, with Bishop Berning holding talks with Hitler. Hitler said he admired the catholic church for persecuting Jews so well over the centuries, much better than he ever could. Ironic seen as the man Catholics worship was a Jew.(although never shown naked on the cross so as not to advertise the fact that he was a Jew for centuries) Anyway, the church and Hitler had a pact and the church remained largely silent in the face of Nazi war crimes. Just as they openly supported the fascist general Pinochet in Chile as he slaughtered liberals by the stadium load. I personally have no problem with people of faith, but that rotten institution that is the organised church has a lot to answer for.

Isn't it great that the Catholic church has given catholics provision to be forgiven for their sins?

Asiaprod

Cantab. wrote:

I wonder would you slate the Dali Lame for his well-known quote where he says that "From a Buddhist point of view, ... [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct."?

Just for the record, the Dali Lama only speaks for his school of Buddhism.
Not all schools share his opinion, mine does not discriminate against homosexuals.

lostexpectation

clown bag wrote:

so BrianCalgary, I take it you approve of promoting hate towards gay people. They shouldn't be allowed media access and should just be hid away out of sight?Just as they openly supported the fascist general Pinochet in Chile as he slaughtered liberals by the stadium load. I personally have no problem with people of faith, but that rotten institution that is the organised church has a lot to answer for.

Isn't it great that the Catholic church has given catholics provision to be forgiven for their sins?

and I might aswell jump in here and praise the churches equal oppurtunity totaliarian dictatorship colloboration because new files and just been revealed even more proof of the thousands of Polish priests as agents for the Communist dictatorship, whatevers needed for the Church to stay in power.

Sangre

Cantab. wrote:

If the leader of the Catholic Church bothers you so much, why take such an interest? I wonder would you slate the Dali Lame for his well-known quote where he says that "From a Buddhist point of view, ... [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct."?

Or maybe, you're just a neo-liberal Independent News Ltd. reader on an anti-Catholic rant?

The simple fact of the matter is the Roman Catholic Church has a lot more influence on the politics of Ireland than the Dali Lame.

Pocari Sweat

Is Brain not right though.

Any nefarious activity that is widely condemned as being sleazy and unwholesome should be kept locked behind closed doors and locked away from sight of decent law abiding folk.

It is not enough to have twisted words shoved down your throat but to have these monsters parade down streets in the daytime, espousing their filth and immorality, is a crime against humanity.

So really, organised religion and their followers should be locked up when they openly spew hatred against law abiding members of the public that have civil rights and have laws and legislation put in place to protect them.

How dare bigots of the church parade down streets, promoting vicious and slanderous hatred when their very hypocracy of allowing priests, free reign to rape, torture and murder children, and then cover up and deny any misconduct.

I think Jesus himself said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Although Jesus left a tremendously strong, 2000 year tradition of finding good in people, it seems the bigots of organised religion still creep out of the woodwork to twist his words.

kiffer

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education.

The Hitler Youth was like the scouts, ok Nazi scouts but scouts none the less.
Like the scouts it was a recruting ground for more advanced troops.
...
In 1936 membership was made obligatory.
Pretty much every Male in the right age group was in the Hitler Youth.

He joined in 1941, when he turned 14. 5 years after membership was made obligatory...

mdebets

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education.

You might want to get your facts right. In 1941, the year Josef Ratzinger indeed joined the Hitler Youth, it was not an option not to join. He didn't decide to join, he was joined.

arctic lemur wrote:

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

You forgot conveniently to add another quote from the same document

"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs."

Hardly the words of a Nazi.

kiffer

mdebets wrote:

Hardly the words of a Nazi.

Unless he's a STEALTH NAZI!!!!1111one!1eleven!11

I'm note sure I like Pope Benedict XVI
but I'm not going to start calling him a Nazi just because he was in The Scouts and then the Army.

Asiaprod

Sangre wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is the Roman Catholic Church has a lot more influence on the politics of Ireland than the Dali Lame.

So what. That has nothing to do with the point you raised. You asked a question that needed to be clarified, I clarified it for you. Nothing more.

mdebets

kiffer wrote:

but I'm not going to start calling him a Nazi just because he was in The Scouts and then the Army.

But the OP said

arctic lemur wrote:

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

practically equating him with being a Nazi.

Sangre

Asiaprod wrote:

So what. That has nothing to do with the point you raised. You asked a question that needed to be clarified, I clarified it for you. Nothing more.

who are you talking to?

Pocari Sweat

Adam and Eve, allowing family incest whether symbolic nonsense, still does'nt explain why the church engaged in wide spread rape, torture and murder of Irish children, as seen for example in Letterfrack in Connemara in the 1950's and 1960's, where the Christian Brothers of the Industrial School there, systematically raped and then killed dozens of young children that were trusted in their care, hiding their bodies in the grounds of the school to be found decades later.

Forget nazi germany and the politics of the time, just look at the holy church in peacetime, rural ireland, commiting far more brutal crimes and getting off scot free, and running other rackets like the slave laundries for girls at a similar time.

This nightmare vision of totalitarian hypocrasy, has not caused the removing of one stone of one single institution where these more serious crimes against humanity took place.

These places should have been flattened and the church made immediately accountable by the state, and a garden or rememberance put in their place, and although non church sex fiends are dealt with by mass protests and emergency legislation as seen in the last few weeks, it seems the more systematic, and extensive crimes the church are allowed to get away with, are somehow gently forgotten and service is resumed as normal, and church followers told to go about their business quietly and without any fuss.

the_syco

Don't tell me you only copped on now? Do a search, and you'll see this was discussed for a while (in politics, I think) before he was made a pope.

Pocari Sweat

the_syco wrote:

Don't tell me you only copped on now? Do a search, and you'll see this was discussed for a while (in politics, I think) before he was made a pope.

Point in case, doesn't take long for any scandals of popes or the church to be quietly forgotten as if it wasn't news at all.

kiffer

mdebets wrote:

But the OP said

arctic lemur wrote:

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

practically equating him with being a Nazi.

Um... yes I don't get what the but is for, I'm saying the OP is wrong to equate him with a Nazi simply because he is a German Male who turned 14 in 1941 , at a time when all german male children had to join the Hitler Youth.
Yes maybe some Nazi Propaaganda rubbed off on him ... but then again maybe he got through it hating such views and having seen the depts that man to which man can sink can avoid those mistakes himself...
Or maybe not. TBH I don't know the man but being forcibly in the Hitler Youth 60 years ago does not make him a Nazi now.

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes we are all loved in the eyes of God. However there is sin that God detests. He detests my sin, He detests Cantabs sin He also detests your sin. There is not one sin that is worse than another, they are all just that: sin.

Brian, I don't know if seperation is possible here, but if God never mentioned a word about homosexuality being a sin - would you still condemn their actions? What I mean is do you really agree - or are you towing the company line? You must realise that you can't just stop being gay.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Homosexuality is at the top of the list right now, because frankly it is in my face.

Careful, that makes an awful mess

BTW, its only "in your face" because you believe it is wrong. I find nothing wrong with a homosexual couple expressing the same interest in sex and sexuality as a heterosexual couple. But then I'm not Christian, or homophobic.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I know some homsexual folks who never discuss their sexuality. But the ones in the media seem to want to dispay their sexuality all over the place.

Why shouldn't they?

Straight people have been discussing their sexuality for thousands of years ... sure all the Old Testement is is descriptions of sex and violence!

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes. What is the purpose of sex? Is it self gratification or is it for the giving of pleasure to another of the opposite sex for the pupose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner.

Why put "opposite sex" in there?

If you are removing the production of children (which is the only actual biological function of sex), then there is no need for the other person to be off the opposite sex. Your sentence works just as well as this

"is it for the giving of pleasure to another you love for the purpose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner"

It seems to me that some modern Christians want their cake and to eat it too. They want their religion to tell them that sex simply for pleasure, and not to create children, is actually ok now, but homosexuals that have sex purely for pleasure (since they can't have sex for reproduction) are still wrong, even though actually both are doing the same thing (sex for pleasure). So you drop in rather nonsensical comments like sex for pleasure is find so long as it is giving pleasure to someone of the opposite sex. That doesn't make much sense. Sex only for pleasure is either wrong or not, it is either an affront to God plan or its not Who you give it too seems rather irrelivent to this.

BrianCalgary wrote:

God created sex for this reason, and the bonus is that we get gratification too.

Well if you work on the assumption that God created everything for a reason, then he also created homosexuality for a reason, since it is a natural occurance found in a large number of species not just humans.

Some Christians may still cling to the outdated idea that homosexuality is a mental problem, that is caused by something in child development and so can be "cured" by something else, but as I said to Wolfbane that is simply incorrect.

Of course wolfbane didn't "buy" that, so really what can you do. As I said about JC's attitudes to science, science is quickly moving on, and some Christians are being left behind.

If people want to ignore the truth being revealed to them all around them, and as such ignore what God actually did, not what you think the did, thats fine but it seems more of an affront to God than anything a gay couple could do.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.

Funny, I'm not sure if a very happy, in love, homosexual couple would consider having a religion tell them their love is a disgrace to God and that they should reject their nature, their nature that God made that way, and live a lie for the rest of their lives is going to make their life "wonderful". How exactly is that going to happen?

kiffer

Pocari Sweat wrote:

the_syco wrote:

Don't tell me you only copped on now? Do a search, and you'll see this was discussed for a while (in politics, I think) before he was made a pope.

Point in case, doesn't take long for any scandals of popes or the church to be quietly forgotten as if it wasn't news at all.

What... look... every newspaper covered this story at the the time... I'm pretty sure that some of them had pictures of him in his HitlerYouth uniform.
This was fairly big news, and it bounced around a lot... then every one stopped talking about it, I don't know why... maybe they realised that it wasn't a scandal. Or maybe they didn't care.
I'm guessing alot of people just realised that every german his age was in the Hitler Youth, willingly or not, and stopped beating the dead horse.

I do agree that many scandals involving the Church are glossed over, but I wouldn't say soon forgotten.

Owen

BrianCalgary wrote:

What is the purpose of sex? Is it self gratification or is it for the giving of pleasure to another of the opposite sex for the pupose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner. God created sex for this reason, and the bonus is that we get gratification too. What a great God. Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered. As is anything that God created and is distorted.

Wow. The dark ages live on. Sex is a wonderful gift full stop. It doesn't matter who it's with, married or not, gay or straight. We're all wonderful people, times have divirsified, and the Church needs to too.

By your argument that Homosexuality is sin like any other, I agree in theory. But put your theory into practise, a Gay man repents, and then has to abstain from even a loving relationship where sex is used to strengthen the bonds of his Gay relationship, whereas a straight couple are free to pursue a relationship, and have sex? That's not right, it's a form of persecution. The Church is supposed to be about tolerance, but apparently tolerance only as long as you agree that the Vatican is right.

Here are the changes I see the Church having to make before numbers fall even further as follows :

Recognise Homosexuality as a normal lifestyle.
Lift the ban on contraception.
Allow Priests to Marry.

Especially the last one, my Uncle is a Parish Priest, and he's had a tough life of living alone. He'd be so much happier if he were married with kids. And this would reflect in his advice towards couples getting married, etc.

We're in the 21st Century, with a 19th Century Doctrine.

kiffer

BrianCalgary wrote:

Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.

Anyone who is not a hedonist is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.
Anyone doesn't like to dance is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.
Anyone doesn't want kids is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.
Anyone who doesn't live in the west is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.
Anyone who disagrees with me is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered.

Wicknight wrote:

Funny, I'm not sure if a very happy, in love, homosexual couple would consider having a religion tell them their love is a disgrace to God and that they should reject their nature, their nature that God made that way, and live a lie for the rest of their lives is going to make their life "wonderful". How exactly is that going to happen?

Some might say the Devil made them that way...
Or how about God it testing them...
There are lots of excuses that can be used, the thing that anoys me is when people start trying to tell you the reason God does things, how the heck can you know the reasoning of God?
You can't. I can't. as such neither person can be correct. although one person can be closer to correct, and as such I think people should drop all the crud and go with the six commandments.

Pocari Sweat

The Catholic church could be singled out for a lot of bad stuff, but I reckon any institution involved in the past and ongoing history like the RCC, should be able to be grilled without sulking too much for what they have been responsible for, if there is a long list of bad shyte they have been up to.



oops wrong thread again..

ned78

ned78 wrote:

Especially the last one, my Uncle is a Parish Priest, and he's had a tough life of living alone. He'd be so much happier if he were married with kids. And this would reflect in his advice towards couples getting married, etc.

We're in the 21st Century, with a 19th Century Doctrine.

Particularly since the bible says "how can he tend to his parish if he cannot mind his own family"
I can't quote verbatim, but that's it

mdebets

kiffer wrote:

Um... yes I don't get what the but is for, I'm saying the OP is wrong to equate him with a Nazi simply because he is a German Male who turned 14 in 1941 , at a time when all german male children had to join the Hitler Youth.
Yes maybe some Nazi Propaaganda rubbed off on him ... but then again maybe he got through it hating such views and having seen the depts that man to which man can sink can avoid those mistakes himself...
Or maybe not. TBH I don't know the man but being forcibly in the Hitler Youth 60 years ago does not make him a Nazi now.

Sorry, I didn't ment to say that you called him a Nazi, but the OP did IMHO, by saying that Nazi propaganda might have impinged his thinking.

Zombrex

kiffer wrote:

The Hitler Youth was like the scouts, ok Nazi scouts but scouts none the less.

Yeah I would agree with that. Not saying he isn't a raging Nazi loon, but the fact that he was in the Hitler Youth doesn't show either way, everyone was in the Hitler Youth.

It would be like assuming an Irish person has to be a fundamentalist Catholic nutjob because they went to a Catholic School. Going to a catholic school might be considered the sign of a deeply religious person in some countries but you have to realise the context within Ireland, everyone went to a catholic school (well a lot of people). It is not something that conclusions can be drawn from..

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

Yeah I would agree with that. Not saying he isn't a raging Nazi loon, but the fact that he was in the Hitler Youth doesn't show either way, everyone was in the Hitler Youth.

It was widely reported at the time, and it was never "forgotten" as Pocari Sweat alleges. The fact of the matter was that being in the Hitler youth didn't necessarily make one a Nazi. At that time, you either joined the Hitler Youth, or you and your family would "disappear". Think of it in terms of "Obligatory Military Service".

In Norway, everyone is required to join the army at 18 years old. Does this mean that a Norwegian becoming an ambassador of peace is a hypocrit? Of course not.

Fallen Seraph

I think the Hitler Youth malark is prettry irrelevant.

I also think that listening to an celibate octogenarian preach on the ins and outs of sex is like reading a book by Helen Keller on Beethoven's symphonies...

ISAW

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education. Yet he is hoping that people will exonerate his past actions by doing things like visiting Auchwitz (last week) etc. Yet he has the nerve to treat homosexual people with disdain, arent we all loved in the eyes of God?

He was in the Hitler you as far as I know for a single day as were all German youth at the time. It did not mean he followed hitler. But even if he did (and he didnt!) he could stil repent like St Paul and follow Christ.

His writings and statements go so far as to describe homosexuality as an “intrinsic moral evil” that should be treated rather than accepted.

where does it say that? Again I dont believe the Catholic church believes that. ACTS may be considered sinfull but not actuaally being homosexual.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

where was this stated. I would like the context. Moind you it doe seem according to doctrine. It mentions "activity". It is hate the sin not the sinner.

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

contrary to popular belief the Nazis did not go overboard on homosexuals as much as jews and gypsies. The heinvolk image fits in well with the muscle bound superman. I have no doubt many senior Nazis practiced homosexual activities.

ISAW

arctic lemur wrote:

Was reading the paper on my break this morning and discovered that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth Group, he entered apparantly not by force but because it gave him a discount off his education. Yet he is hoping that people will exonerate his past actions by doing things like visiting Auchwitz (last week) etc. Yet he has the nerve to treat homosexual people with disdain, arent we all loved in the eyes of God?

He was in the Hitler you as far as I know for a single day as were all German youth at the time. It did not mean he followed hitler. But even if he did (and he didnt!) he could stil repent like St Paul and follow Christ.

His writings and statements go so far as to describe homosexuality as an “intrinsic moral evil” that should be treated rather than accepted.

where does it say that? Again I dont believe the Catholic church believes that. ACTS may be considered sinfull but not actuaally being homosexual.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Ratzinger stated when people "engage in homosexual activity, they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

where was this stated. I would like the context. Moind you it doe seem according to doctrine. It mentions "activity". It is hate the sin not the sinner.

Maby some of the Nazi propaganda has impinged his thinking???

contrary to popular belief the Nazis did not go overboard on homosexuals as much as jews and gypsies. The heinvolk image fits in well with the muscle bound superman. I have no doubt many senior Nazis practiced homosexual activities.

ISAW

The Atheist wrote:

Brian, I don't know if seperation is possible here, but if God never mentioned a word about homosexuality being a sin - would you still condemn their actions? What I mean is do you really agree - or are you towing the company line? You must realise that you can't just stop being gay.

Two issues here.

In Christianity there is a written tradition (called the Bible) and an unwritten tradition. I mean the Bibkle was nt available in a single edition till about the fifth century. what did the Christians do for five centuries? Even then it was rare. So adding to that there are a number of non biblical writings. Indeed ther are also Gnostic gospels.

anyway, second point, the Roman Church do NOT view homosexuality as evil. They view homosexual ACTS as wrong because they are sexual in nature and they view sex as primarily for creating children in a stable family. Similarly the Church would view contraception, single parents and a whole host of other situations as bad for society.

Vas_Guy

Is homosexuality a sin?
God is the ultimate and sovereign judge for sin. Homosexuality is sin by His order; it is not decided by public opinion or deceived/false clergy. Changing societies do not dictate God's standards. Sin is defined by God for us in the Bible. It is the source for what God says is holy and righteous or sin and abomination. Hebrews 13:8 states that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; he does not “go with the flow.”

God's Word says that homosexuality is unnatural, a perversion, an abomination, fornication, vile affections, and a great sin against Him. He states any sexual act outside of marriage is adultery (hetro or homo sexual). Sex is to be between man and woman within marriage.

What does this mean?
God's design for natural sexual relationships is part of His plan. Homosexuality falsifies what God designed. Sin often means not only rejecting God but denying or rejecting how and why we are made. Though it may be considered acceptable by some today -- even in some churches -- it is not acceptable to God. And we need to take that seriously.

Sexual sins were rampant in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. (This is the origin of the word sodomy.) Despite warnings, they refused to repent. God destroyed those cities and it was recorded as a warning to all future generations. (Genesis 18:20-21, Genesis 19:4-5, 2 Peter 2:6) Some additional scriptures on homosexuality are found in:

Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-27
The price paid for homosexuality and other fornications are told in:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Jude 6-7
Romans 1:18

In spite of the growing secular humanist trend to think "it's ok to be gay," it's not a righteous lifestyle. Most vocal Christians are not homophobic, but are trying to share Christ's love for homosexuals and trying to keep them from horrific judgment.

robindch

> Most vocal Christians are not homophobic

A strange thing to claim in the light of the bilious, nasty, homophobic rant you've just produced.

Zombrex

Fallen Seraph wrote:

is like reading a book by Helen Keller on Beethoven's symphonies...

Zing! You got served! Oh its on!

Owen

All this based on a book written by men, not God. God's word has been diluted by centuries, and people adding their own exaggerations onto stories. Even the Vatican has said that some parts of the Bible aren't true. Thats why it says "King James Version", and not "God's original manuscript transcribed".

Look, taking the Bible as fact, and literal will only end up in closed minded individuals being incapable of ever seeing things from the other side. They'll preach tolerance, but keep the fire and brimstone stoked up.

Use the Bible as a reference for Morals and uprightness. Some things are great, I learned my morals from stories like Zacchaus, and The Good Samaritan, but I'll be damned in hell (tm) if I'm going to alienate my friends or judge them because they're gay. In my eyes, they're happy, and leading fulfilling lives.

Zombrex

Vas_Guy wrote:

Is homosexuality a sin?
God is the ultimate and sovereign judge for sin. Homosexuality is sin by His order

No, homosexuality is a sin by His order according to a bunch of men who lived in the Middle East 4000 years ago. Nature (which God actually created) would tend to contradict that idea, just as it contradicts all the other things the Bible has got wrong.

Vas_Guy wrote:

Changing societies do not dictate God's standards.

So the standard of the society that originally wrote the Bible should?

Vas_Guy wrote:

Sin is defined by God for us in the Bible.

No, sin is defined by the people who wrote the Bible for us in the Bible. I find it astonding that you would believe that the modern church could be wrong about things but these desert men must have got everything perfect, when there are already so many things in the Bible that have been shown to be wrong.

Vas_Guy wrote:

God's Word says that homosexuality is unnatural, a perversion, an abomination, fornication, vile affections, and a great sin against Him.

No, the Bible says that homosexuality is unnatural.

Nature itself (created I assume you believe by God Himself) says that homosexuality is a natural occurance.

So who are you going to believe? A bunch of men scribbling down rules they wanted their followers to believe 4000 years ago, or the natural world around us, which God actually did.

Vas_Guy wrote:

God's design for natural sexual relationships is part of His plan. Homosexuality falsifies what God designed.

No it doesn't, because God placed homosexuality within the natural processes of humans, and it makes little sense that God would falsify his own design.

It is far more likely that the Biblical codes are wrong.

Vas_Guy wrote:

it's not a righteous lifestyle.

To quote the Simpsons, have you actually read the Bible, technically we are not supposed to go to the bathroom. Nothing is a righteous lifestyle, according to the Bible.

So I ask you again, who are you going to believe, the Bible, or God Himself, because at the moment they are contradicting each other, and it seems to be a bit silly to believe the Bible over God Himself :rolleyes:

The sins of sodom and gomorrah were inhospitality, namely rape. Rape of men.
And:
Ezekiel 16:49:

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

Matthew 10: 5-15 mentions only rejection of the apostles, lack of hospitality, not sex.

And if you're going to quote leviticus, I certainly hope that you "do not let your hair become unkempt or tear your clothes" {on pain of death} and that you sacrifice animals on an altar frequently, abstain from eating shellfish and various other creatures, and kill anyone who eats blood pudding. Because it specifically states anyone who eats the blood of a creature should be killed or at least exiled. Shall I go on? It doesn't even mention that for homosexuality, so perhaps we should understand that homosexuality is less of an issue than eating blood-pudding.

Or perhaps you want to read Colossians 2 which says all the old laws are nailed to the cross.

Vas_Guy

Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God."

Peter 1:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.

Second, the Holy Ghost confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth." The Holy Ghost who convicts the world of sin also assures the believer that the Bible is God's Word.

Another source of evidence comes from archaeology. Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions. Nelson Glueck, a renowned Jewish archaeologist, states, "No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.''

Dades

ISAW wrote:

the Roman Church do NOT view homosexuality as evil. They view homosexual ACTS as wrong

Nobody falls for that ridiculous distinction.

Nothing is sin until it's actually done. Unless of course "impure thoughts" are a sin. In which case you are saying homosexual thoughts are not impure.

Vas_Guy

Vas_Guy wrote:

Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God."

Peter 1:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.

And yet colossians 2:14-19 says he did away with those laws; mention of the food and drink is clearly reference to Leviticus' list of dos and don'ts

Vas_Guy

We can argue the rights and wrongs and counter each other all night.

We both made our points lets leave it at that without falling out, and believe what we want to ourselves.

It's far more educational to engage in discussion.

But, as you wish.

Zombrex

Vas_Guy wrote:

Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God."

"Inspired" by God ... all scripture is the work of men who believed they were inspired by what they believed God wanted.

But because they are still only men they could be wrong, as they obviously were in a lot of things.

Vas_Guy wrote:

Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.

Did he tell you that? Have you actually meet him? Have you actually spoken to him?

You only believe that because the Bible itself told you that. The Bible only tells you that because the men who wrote the Bible believed that Jesus said that. As with the old testement you get back to men, oridinary men, publishing these things.

If modern religious men can be wrong about what they think God wants, does it not make sense that ordinary men 2000 or 4000 years ago could not also be wrong about what they believed God, or Jesus wanted or meant?

Vas_Guy wrote:

Second, the Holy Ghost confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth."

So God Himself as actually told you that everything in the Old Testement is correct has He?

Vas_Guy wrote:

Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions.

So? What did you expect it would contain? Descriptions of flying cars and unicorns? What time period should the Bible describe?

"The Da Vinic Code" is pretty accurate in its descriptions of 21st Century Europe. Does that mean the book is not a work of fiction after all? Of course not. It simply means the book was actually written in the 21st Century.

Because the Bible accurately describes ordinary life in the 4th millenium BCE Middle East isn't a revelation, since it was written in the 4th millenium BCE. What other oridinary life and culture would it describe? :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Vas_Guy wrote:

believe what we want to ourselves.

You can believe what ever you want. You're just wrong, thats all :cool:

robindch

> And yet colossians 2:14-19 says he did away with those laws

Yes, indeed it does Colossians 2:14-19 says:

He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away

But don't forget Matthew 5:17 which says the exact opposite:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

If your moral reference is the bible, you can believe whatever you like -- there's enough in the bible to justify any point of view, no matter how vindictive.

Well, what do you reckon "fulfil" them means in that context?

And in any case, one surely can't pick that part of leviticus and ignore the rest anyway
One way or another, quoting it isn't great

arctic lemur

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yes we are all loved in the eyes of God. However there is sin that God detests. He detests my sin, He detests Cantabs sin He also detests your sin. There is not one sin that is worse than another, they are all just that: sin.

Isn't it great that God has given us provision to be forgiven for those sins? I have been forgiven mine. There are homosexuals that are sinning, there are heterosexuals that are commiting sin. God will forgive them all, if they repent and do what they can to turn away from the sinful life that they are leading.

Homosexuality is at the top of the list right now, because frankly it is in my face. I know some homsexual folks who never discuss their sexuality. But the ones in the media seem to want to dispay their sexuality all over the place. I don't want to know what anyone does in their bedroom. Hence it is these people that you would ewant to know why they have this need to display it for th eworld to see? hence:







Yes. What is the purpose of sex? Is it self gratification or is it for the giving of pleasure to another of the opposite sex for the pupose of expressing intimacy with a life long partner. God created sex for this reason, and the bonus is that we get gratification too. What a great God. Anyone acting outside of this is missing out on a wonderful life and are therefore disordered. As is anything that God created and is distorted.

i'd think thats its a deep intimacy with someones partner that has a special resonnance. I dont like homosexuals or heterosexuals flaunting their sexuality too openly. I a aware in the Catholic tradition sex has to be within the confines of a marraige/heterosexual relationship and have a procreative aspect in order to be fulfilling.

arctic lemur

Cantab. wrote:

Sigh.

I don't know what annoys me more: you, or the historical slopiness with which you describe Pope Benedict's youth.

If the leader of the Catholic Church bothers you so much, why take such an interest? I wonder would you slate the Dali Lame for his well-known quote where he says that "From a Buddhist point of view, ... [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct."?

Or maybe, you're just a neo-liberal Independent News Ltd. reader on an anti-Catholic rant?

No I'm not a'Neo-liberal ' and i dont like being branded as such. I'm not on an anti-Catholic rant as you put it as my early bachground was Catholic.