NRA pulling funding for Sarsfield/Bandon RD roundabouts in Cork?

Chris_533976

Ok anyone from Cork knows that they're putting the huge flyover over the Kinsale Road Roundabout, elimatinating a huge bottleneck. The plans were to build two more flyovers, one each over the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts. The Kinsale Road one is to be finished in a few months, and I heard on here that the other two were due to start early next year.

I've just seen a post on Archiseek that the NRA has pulled funding from the two projects! They apparently said it in the Examiner today, but I couldnt find anything on the website about it.

Anyone know any more about this? IMO this is absolutely NUTS and a really stupid and lame idea. These roundabouts HAVE to be fixed, or the traffic will still be terrible on the South Ring for years to come.

Anyone?

jank

It was in the examiner today. Their excuse is the prority is the fermoy bypass (which is PPP anyway?!?) and the mitchelstown relif road which is to open in a few weeks!?

The fermoy M8 is to open in a few months too, so why use that as a 95% complete project as an excuse to to not fund another project that will just get more and more expensive when its put on the back burner.

Its the same with the kinsale flyover. It was supposed to start years ago but the NRA wouldnt fund it until last year...

So is this another case of Cork Infrasturcture getting shafted!!!

The total cost of the flyovers is 80m today which is peanuts to what is to be spent in the country especially dublin *cough* 1 billion port tunnel *cough*

Oh and the midleton line is going to be ready for 2009 almost 6 years after is was announced!? :rolleyes:

Cork corporation and council are way ahead of the game when it coms to forward planning but its always the lack of funds for projects that cause the delays

Chris_533976

Wow that sounds like a lame excuse. Yeah Cork is getting shafted all the time. The Sarsfield roundabout will be traffic hell from now on. But they've already removed half a football pitch and started concreting it over for the traffic diversions at the Sarsfield site? Wonder what will happen there now.

In any case I'm glad I'm moving away from here in the next few months. Its hard to tolerate the level of stupidity in this country anymore.

At least in Germany the interurbans are complete, proper rail network, proper bus network, S and U-Bahns in most big cities and all the roads are well signposted and dont have a pothole in sight.

Bamboozled

I read that its only being delayed as there are more pressing projects. That its not not going to happen, but it will in time ( probably when the place is at a complete standstill all day rather than most of the day.)

mysterious

jank wrote:

It was in the examiner today. Their excuse is the prority is the fermoy bypass (which is PPP anyway?!?) and the mitchelstown relif road which is to open in a few weeks!?

The fermoy M8 is to open in a few months too, so why use that as a 95% complete project as an excuse to to not fund another project that will just get more and more expensive when its put on the back burner.

Its the same with the kinsale flyover. It was supposed to start years ago but the NRA wouldnt fund it until last year...

So is this another case of Cork Infrasturcture getting shafted!!!

The total cost of the flyovers is 80m today which is peanuts to what is to be spent in the country especially dublin *cough* 1 billion port tunnel *cough*

Oh and the midleton line is going to be ready for 2009 almost 6 years after is was announced!? :rolleyes:

Cork corporation and council are way ahead of the game when it coms to forward planning but its always the lack of funds for projects that cause the delays

Do yourself a favour, get over yourself... Projects being delayed is not a new phenomenon to Cork or the Whole country for that matter.

Cork alone has more road projects completed than any other region outside of Dublin.

Take Limerick for example not a single section of the M7/N7 has started at this side of Portlaoise. The N7 to Nenagh was on of the first mooted so called motorways to be built. Yet it's not even started.

Another example the Shannon rail link? also shafted for now, yet the midleton line gets the go ahead, regardless of the delay. Your still complaining.

Cork schemes that have being completed or near completion..

Kinsale interchange
Ballincollig bypass
Fermoy
Mitchellstown relief and the new N8(just started)
Youghal bypass only completed early last year?
The N20 upgrade to Mallow, first 2+1 scheme?

There are many more....

Galway and Limerick have had no new road schemes yet to start.

The Limerick tunnel was delay by 2years to date. postphoned till spring of this year, and still hasn't started. I could go on!!!!!

Enough of your sarsfield roundabout...:mad:


GET over yourself

dowlingm

mysterious

Midleton reopening has been 20 years in the making since the CASP/LUTS process started, including six since the Arup report. Limerick should get improved service no doubt but Midleton has been very patient and doesn't deserve the swipe you took at it.

I have been delayed in traffic for 30mins-1 hour on all the projects you mentioned for Cork except Mallow-Cork (the road with a bend for every day of the year with a consequent safety record). My family comes from an area between Mitchelstown and Fermoy so I am only too familiar with its congestion, especially Fermoy where all traffic from the N8 and N72 goes over one 2+1 (barely) bridge.

As for Limerick - what about the Ring Road, Patrickswell bypass, Croom bypass? Don't know Galway as well but I don't think the approach road from Dublin-Galway is much if any newer than Cork-Mallow.

Victor

Chris_533976 wrote:

The plans were to build two more flyovers, one each over the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts.

Not quite. The plan seemed to be to build a viaduct between the two roundabouts and make it four carriageway, i.e. Wilton traffic would pass through both roundabouts and then join the mainline when going to say, Macroom.

"Oddly" they took the design off the website.

There is this though http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzrhSpD1M8MJ:www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF+Sarsfield+/+Bandon+Road+roundabouts&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=5

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Show.aspx?ID=APR036871

jank

mysterious wrote:

Do yourself a favour, get over yourself... Projects being delayed is not a new phenomenon to Cork or the Whole country for that matter.

Cork alone has more road projects completed than any other region outside of Dublin.

Take Limerick for example not a single section of the M7/N7 has started at this side of Portlaoise. The N7 to Nenagh was on of the first mooted so called motorways to be built. Yet it's not even started.

Another example the Shannon rail link? also shafted for now, yet the midleton line gets the go ahead, regardless of the delay. Your still complaining.

Cork schemes that have being completed or near completion..

Kinsale interchange
Ballincollig bypass
Fermoy
Mitchellstown relief and the new N8(just started)
Youghal bypass only completed early last year?
The N20 upgrade to Mallow, first 2+1 scheme?

There are many more....

Galway and Limerick have had no new road schemes yet to start.

The Limerick tunnel was delay by 2years to date. postphoned till spring of this year, and still hasn't started. I could go on!!!!!

Enough of your sarsfield roundabout...:mad:


GET over yourself

eh right.. whatever!!

:rolleyes:
Have a look at the CSAP and see what Cork SHOULD have in plan in a few years time...

They wont make the same mistake as dublin I can tell you that

Chris_533976

Victor wrote:

Not quite. The plan seemed to be to build a viaduct between the two roundabouts and make it four carriageway, i.e. Wilton traffic would pass through both roundabouts and then join the mainline when going to say, Macroom.

"Oddly" they took the design off the website.

There is this though http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzrhSpD1M8MJ:www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF+Sarsfield+/+Bandon+Road+roundabouts&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=5

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Show.aspx?ID=APR036871

Thanks

Yeah theyve kinda done that at the Kinsale road one to prevent weaving on and off the carriageway. Its gonna end up at about 8 lanes altogether. At least they're finally trying to future proof the route with the extra lanes.

In any case tho, its a pity this is going to be delayed. It is essential, not as important as the M50 upgrade (say) but much more important than some of the poxy realignments going on elsewhere in the country.

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious

Midleton reopening has been 20 years in the making since the CASP/LUTS process started, including six since the Arup report. Limerick should get improved service no doubt but Midleton has been very patient and doesn't deserve the swipe you took at it.

I have been delayed in traffic for 30mins-1 hour on all the projects you mentioned for Cork except Mallow-Cork (the road with a bend for every day of the year with a consequent safety record). My family comes from an area between Mitchelstown and Fermoy so I am only too familiar with its congestion, especially Fermoy where all traffic from the N8 and N72 goes over one 2+1 (barely) bridge.

As for Limerick - what about the Ring Road, Patrickswell bypass, Croom bypass? Don't know Galway as well but I don't think the approach road from Dublin-Galway is much if any newer than Cork-Mallow.

I wasn't taking a swipe at the Midleton line, I was just pointing out the fact it's not the only line that needs to get mooted, and I did say it's going ahead, as the Shannon link will be at least 15 years, we are talking 3/4 Km spur:rolleyes: to the Ennis line....

Again I just pointed out the fact that Fermoy and other places are all getting Motorway bypasses etc...

Though you mention Croom and Patrickswell.?
Croom village was a deathtrap with V/S shaped jucntion(IMO was the only reason it got the go ahead for a bypass even if it were 6 mile tailbacks on it) and trucks couldn't get through. The road was one of the most dangerous stretches on the N20 not to mention the heavy traffic that trunddled through.

As for Patrickswell, Its bypassed like nearly 10years ago!! can we stay in the 21st century? or do you want to compare back then? when Limerick had no first class road like Cork had.... ffs, big celebration. Well Patrickwell was infamous for its Delays, there were far worse during the summer way back prior to the bypass when Fermoy only had a dozen cars flowing through at the that time.

Practically all N21/N20 traffic had to squeese through!!! traffic is roughly about 14,000 N21 and 12,500 a day For Cork/Tralee bound. Now combine it and without the local traffic on its main street.... Glad it was bypass don't you think...

My whole point is Cork is getting it's fair share of its slice of new infastructural road projects..

Limerick got the Southern ring road, ffs sake how long had Cork had its Southern Ring, stop suggesting assed comparisons!!!!! Cork is to get a Northern Ring, Note just to get nitty and nutty, Limerick southern ring is'nt even finished, should I add...


Seriously if I was a Corkonian I would be impressed with the level of attention the NRA has given ye in the last few years.!!!!

:rolleyes:

Roll on the N7....

mysterious

jank wrote:

eh right.. whatever!!

:rolleyes:
Have a look at the CSAP and see what Cork SHOULD have in plan in a few years time...

They wont make the same mistake as dublin I can tell you that

So this interests me because?

dowlingm

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

For a Shannon link to work (a concept I support incidentally) Limerick City and Clare councils have to co-operate. However with Limerick trying to take a chunk out of Clare that's just not going to happen. You should get out your ruler though - even Shannon airport to Sixmilebridge with a perpendicular spur is about 10km rather than 3-4 and that's with no connection to Shannon town and Ennis passengers having to reverse out to Sixmilebridge again to get to Limerick - I don't think so! Sixmilebridge-(Shannon Airport/Free Zone/Town)-Bunratty-Cratloe could be a winner if the line was fast but then you're talking maybe 20-25km.

As for Cork the "South Ring Road" was the "South Link Road" - a couple of km from Eglinton St to the Airport Roundabout for years, all the major stuff like Douglas bypass, the tunnel and the Wilton link is really not as old as you think.

GAA jersey infrastructure planning can't work, that Dublin or Cork could only get as much as could be spent in Leitrim!

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

some sections opened in mid 2001.. still talking 5 years quite some time considering the amount of roads opening in Ireland since then. I'm talking about the interurban and major routes that have been under planning, most of the Limerick sections have been shafted while every single project in Cork has got the go ahead even with the delays.

dowlingm wrote:

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

I like the way locals exaggerates the size of their cities... Cork is only twice the size of Limerick. And please get your facts straight. Limerick is not technically losing city status.... It's a long battle over the boundary issue. if the boundary issue was sorted the city would be over 100,000, still leaves Places like Cratloe and Patrickswell outside the boundary!!!

dowlingm wrote:

For a Shannon link to work (a concept I support incidentally) Limerick City and Clare councils have to co-operate. However with Limerick trying to take a chunk out of Clare that's just not going to happen. You should get out your ruler though - even Shannon airport to Sixmilebridge with a perpendicular spur is about 10km rather than 3-4 and that's with no connection to Shannon town and Ennis passengers having to reverse out to Sixmilebridge again to get to Limerick - I don't think so! Sixmilebridge-(Shannon Airport/Free Zone/Town)-Bunratty-Cratloe could be a winner if the line was fast but then you're talking maybe 20-25km.

Your just making it complicated for your arguement. It does not have to work like that. It doesn't have to branch off at sixmilebridge, although the interchange will more than likely be there alright. It could be a few miles closer the the Shannon direction of the Ennis- Limerick Line.

dowlingm wrote:

As for Cork the "South Ring Road" was the "South Link Road" - a couple of km from Eglinton St to the Airport Roundabout for years, all the major stuff like Douglas bypass, the tunnel and the Wilton link is really not as old as you think.

Silly arguement here, most road like these in Ireland are new, you'd want to be more specific....

Again you have pointed out another road that Cork has under it's belt, the only city in Ireland that has a proper 4 lane carrigway (with the exception of the Chapelizod bypass) from the South link bypass to the city..

Limerick still has more unecessary traffic trunddling through, and still waiting for the Southern ring to finish since 1996. Yes 50% of it's finished but hell it's more badly needed than the Sarsfield roundabouts if I must arise it. Cork still is complaining that it is'nt getting enough projects done and finshed... Now wanting a Northern ring road comparable if not more impressive than Dublin's network, you tell me size compares. If that's the case Dublin is 10 times bigger and should get a few more orbitals many times more than Cork. It's all a bit stupid, but since you put it like that, I just want to elaborate on it.

Btw Cork is Limerck's main competitor Not Kilkenny, Waterford and Galway, Limerick's economic engine can easilly par with Cork. just because Cork is that much bigger doesn't mean Limerick is that far behind in economic activity and wealth, more cars etc... I could debate this but, it would only cause a shouting match;)

bk

All from the 2002 CSO:

Cork Total: 447,829
Cork City: 123,062
Cork County: 324,767

Limerick Total: 175,304
Limerick City: 54,023
Limerick County: 121,281

So Cork should be getting about 3 times the investment of Limerick.

Personally I wonder how much this has to do with the really good job Cork City and County Councils do in developing an excellent overall plan for the development of the county and executing on them.

mysterious

bk wrote:

All from the 2002 CSO:

Cork Total: 447,829
Cork City: 123,062
Cork County: 324,767

Limerick Total: 175,304
Limerick City: 54,023
Limerick County: 121,281

So Cork should be getting about 3 times the investment of Limerick.

Personally I wonder how much this has to do with the really good job Cork City and County Councils do in developing an excellent overall plan for the development of the county and executing on them.

Now now that's SILLY we are talking about the city of Limerick and Cork...
Not "Counties"

Silly silly silly.....

Some parts of Cork are closer to Limerick Like Charleville?? off the top of my head, pathetic arguement, unless you want to continue this..


I would add since you mention Counties, Limerick's conutbations spreads into three counties Clare, Limerick itself and Tipperary(newport) however Cork does not spread into other counties. for that matter.
Funny trick you had there.

bk

mysterious wrote:

I would add since you mention Counties, Limerick's conutbations spreads into three counties Clare, Limerick itself and Tipperary(newport) however Cork does not spread into other counties. for that matter.
Funny trick you had there.

WTF are you talking about, that is fact, that is from the CSO, no tricks, just exact, real figures.

According to Wikipedia the population of Limerick including suburbs and environs is 93,321.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick

Also according to Wikipedia the population of Cork including suburbs is 186,239.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork

So Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick. Get over it, it isn't a big deal, but it will have an effect on where infrastructure money is spent.

Also I think because Cork City and County Council have their stuff together much better then Limerick and it's neighbours, means the government see it as a safer bet for regional investment. I think Limerick City and County Council need to work closely with the neighbouring County Councils to improve their lot. Don't blame me for it, complain to your local Council, to get their act together and put forward better plans like in Cork.

Chris_533976

Yay a big fight in my thread

I'm proud

mysterious

bk wrote:

WTF are you talking about, that is fact, that is from the CSO, no tricks, just exact, real figures.

According to Wikipedia the population of Limerick including suburbs and environs is 93,321.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick

Also according to Wikipedia the population of Cork including suburbs is 186,239.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork

So Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick. Get over it, it isn't a big deal, but it will have an effect on where infrastructure money is spent.

Also I think because Cork City and County Council have their stuff together much better then Limerick and it's neighbours, means the government see it as a safer bet for regional investment. I think Limerick City and County Council need to work closely with the neighbouring County Councils to improve their lot. Don't blame me for it, complain to your local Council, to get their act together and put forward better plans like in Cork.

www.limerickcity.ie has the population figures for with the boundary ests.. Not all the suburbs are included, like Annacotty and Lisnagry just to name afew.

Yep agree with your point that Cork seem to work to well together with the city council and county council

funny you say

bk wrote:

Don't blame me for it

jank

Mysterious seems to have 4th city syndrome

murphaph

Cork city AND county (given their relatively excellent cooperation) are the most shafted local authority areas in Ireland. I'm a Dub and readily admit that Cork has had better planning for many many years now. They also are net contributors to the exchequer (Limerick isn't) and yet have a fairly serious infrastructure defecit, nevermind some of the worst city bus services in Ireland. Cork deserves much much better for it's not insignificant contribution to the national economy. Cork subsidises Limerick's roads as it is, so let's not forget that either

The pathetic squabbling that goes on between Limerick City and County Council, Clare CC and Tipperary CC does not inspire any confidence in me. I would be doubly irate if I were a Corkonian knowing that my local authorities have had their planning in order for years and also knowin that my taxes were being sent to the mess that is the midwest to build roads there, roads that Clare CC would grant PP for one off houses to ribbon along if they could!

bk

mysterious wrote:

www.limerickcity.ie has the population figures for with the boundary ests.. Not all the suburbs are included, like Annacotty and Lisnagry just to name afew.

And the Cork figure doesn't include all the suburbs and commuter towns of Cork city like Blarney, Mallow, etc. and it also doesn't include the large hinterland around Cork City from where people commute into the city to work.

I know that a lot of my friends and family who have being buying houses recently, have been buying in the rural areas immediately surrounding Cork, they wouldn't actually be measured as being in Cork City, but they are all within 5 miles of the city and they all commute to work their.

I'd say that the majority of the 324,767 people who live in Cork County actually live close to the city or in a Commuter town of it and many would commute to Cork City.

murphaph wrote:

nevermind some of the worst city bus services in Ireland.

This really annoys me, I live in Dublin now and Dublin Bus is vastly superior to Cork. I hate the way that Cork buses park in the city centre for 30 minutes and they are no where near as frequent as DB and they never put on extra buses at rush hour, unlike DB. Cork bus fleet is only 86 strong, for only about €20 million, you could double the number of buses and vastly improve the service.

And with all of this Cork City and County Councils have great plans for buses with Green routes, park and rides, etc. But Bus Eireann aren't getting the funding for new buses and they aren't doing their part (parking in the city centre) :mad:

Bards

Need I remind people living in Cork and complaing about lack of infrastructure, that cork has the Lee tunnel - Toll Free

Waterford City bypass is finally in construction 3 years behind schedule and will be tolled. Limerick's new tunnel under the Shannon will be tolled.

so stop complaining as ye have got enough infrastructure down the years when everyone else was sidelined

Chris_533976

The reason the Lee Tunnel isnt tolled is because it was built solely with EU money. If it was built nowadays it would definately be tolled. They're still mooting adding a toll to it, but the way through Cork to avoid it is too well known and would be used, jamming up the city.

jank

Toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel?

Have ye not learned anything about the M50 fiasco??

Bamboozled

Yeah we have.
And trying to get to the Tunnel is as bad as trying to get to the toll bridge on the M50!

dowlingm

they were going to toll the JLT and then figured out that they couldn't fit plazas on the north end for safety reasons because of the Little Island ramp. Personally I think all M roads should be tolled on a per kilometre basis using a national transponder system, including finding a legal way to do it on existing untolled ones - then it's all fair right?

1huge1

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

not to go of point here but cork city is not 3 times limerick cities size its just that when people talk about limerick population it only counts the city centre as you probably already know
limerick is in competition with cork
galway with watherford and kilkenny
ill admit cork has been screwed over especially witht the midleton line but as has limerick

bk

1huge1 wrote:

not to go of point here but cork city is not 3 times limerick cities size its just that when people talk about limerick population it only counts the city centre as you probably already know

As I have clearly pointed out with official statistics from the CSO, it is quiet clear that Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick and probably serves a population 3 times larger then Limerick when you take into account the commuter towns and hinterland of both cities.

This excellent map quiet clearly shows the size of both Cities and the surrounding areas they serve:
http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/whoweare/poster.htm

From this map it is blindingly obvious that Cork city serves a much larger population and surrounding area.

parsi

bk wrote:

This really annoys me, I live in Dublin now and Dublin Bus is vastly superior to Cork. I hate the way that Cork buses park in the city centre for 30 minutes and they are no where near as frequent as DB and they never put on extra buses at rush hour,

What routes park for 30 mins ? The 10 and 2 are crosstown and they stop long enough just to pick up (max 10 mins) ?

Bamboozled

I remember the number 8 used stop at the Statue for a while/20 mins. usually when changing drivers.

Same on the other side by the Savoy.

But i dont know if they still do it. I've a car now and dont even know where the number 8 stops in town any more since they pulled up Patrick Street and moved the bus stops around the place when they were doing it.

mysterious

Ehem Limerick hinterland catchment population is only marginally smaller than Corks. I'll look for this fact soon. lol

Figures is both around 300,000 for the hinterland limerick is just marginally smaller.

Limerick is more located inland, and is more accessible to most large towns.
Located on Irelands longest and busiest river.
More national routes and rail lines interchange here.
Bigger Airport, Shannon
Of course Ennis 25,000 people only 20 miles away, and is the fastest growing town in the west of Ireland. Now ranks with Bray and Drogheda in terms of growth and size. check www.cso.ie.
Not to mention Limerick catchment of Galway.. and is Closer to Dublin than Cork is?? Shannon??? ..

Limerick's population growth is much faster than corks btw

Major point don't underestimate the catchment of Limerick.

I know it's look like a rant, and I'm partly to blame, but i cannot stress anymore that Cork IS getting a lot of investment more than Galway and Limerick combines even so. AND corkonians are still complaining????


This explains why more retailers and distrubution centre's locate here. As Limerick is the fastest growing commercial region outside of Dublin. This is widly known.

I must say Mallow is a good few miles out to be a suburb reallly

bk

parsi wrote:

What routes park for 30 mins ? The 10 and 2 are crosstown and they stop long enough just to pick up (max 10 mins) ?

Just head around to Merchants Quay and see for yourself. They often just pull up, the driver gets out and shuts the door behind him. An example is the Number 3.

I'm sure there are many others, but I live in Dublin now.

Also on the No 3 route they never stop just to pick up, they usually stop for about 15 minutes and wait, even if no one is boarding.

Cork should be more like Dublin, buses every 7 - 10 minutes, no time table, bus stops, picks up people and leaves immediately.

There seems to be a real snub, classist thing going on in Cork. The buses that operate to the south side of the city, seem to operate more like Dublin Bus (frequent and fast), but the service to the North side of the city is far inferior.

mysterious

bk wrote:

As I have clearly pointed out with official statistics from the CSO, it is quiet clear that Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick and probably serves a population 3 times larger then Limerick when you take into account the commuter towns and hinterland of both cities.

This excellent map quiet clearly shows the size of both Cities and the surrounding areas they serve:
http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/whoweare/poster.htm

From this map it is blindingly obvious that Cork city serves a much larger population and surrounding area.

but there is a certain flair of exaggeration of Corka population, that is density, take a look on roscrea in that map, and it looks like it's bigger than kilkenny. That is population density. So it's not entirely suited to this, It just not three times the size full stop. Cork constantly view's itself a rather large cosmopolitican capital.it might be spreading into other towns but the city is actually shrinking. Limerck city population back in the 60s was over 60,000 within the boundary just thought i'd point this out.

Again Your right about Cork being twice the size, both cities have a rather large few towns within a 20 miles radius. Limerick is more evenly spreaded to Ennis/shannon direction and spreads more sparsly between. With cork being a bigger city of course it will have more spilling of suburban towns. Limerick population is still an issue and is still not defined it's now spreading into Tipperary. but this is not the topic of course.

bk

mysterious wrote:

This explains why more retailers and distrubution centre's locate here. As Limerick is the fastest growing commercial region outside of Dublin. This is widly known.

Man you are so wrong on this, I know for a fact that all the retailers want to get into Cork, but the problem for them is simply lack of space. There simply isn't enough large box retail space in the Cork city island area (between the two forks of the river).

Cork City Council is currently trying to rezone areas of the city to try and make space for these retailers (for instance on the Grand Parade). Trust me on this, it has nothing to do with population size.

Just look at the new Mahon Point shopping Centre, the biggest shopping centre in the country, outside of Dublin. Or just take a look at the massive development going on in Blackpool in Cork, a US style strip mall type of thing is developing there.

You couldn't be more wrong about this, the retailers are crying out for good locations in Cork. Patrick St has some of the highest retail rental rates in the country. Just look at all the retailers trying to squeeze into Roches Stores.

mysterious wrote:

I must say Mallow is a good few miles out to be a suburb reallly

Mallow is 20 miles on an excellent, high quality new road, I have lots of friends who live in Mallow and commute into work (or for drinks) in Cork City.

BTW you are also wrong about the hinterland, if you bothered to look at the map I linked to above, you can clearly see that Corks hinterland is by far, larger and more populous then Limerick.

In fact the population of Cork County is larger then Limerick, Clare and Tipperary put together.

mysterious

bk wrote:

Man you are so wrong on this, I know for a fact that all the retailers want to get into Cork, but the problem for them is simply lack of space. There simply isn't enough large box retail space in the Cork city island area (between the two forks of the river).

Cork City Council is currently trying to rezone areas of the city to try and make space for these retailers (for instance on the Grand Parade). Trust me on this, it has nothing to do with population size.

well than both cities have simular problems, Limerick has rezoning problems, Boundary issue,high rents, high commercial rates and major competition from the suburbs alot more so than Cork. I know retailers want to get into Cork, but it seems that regardless as to what part of Limerick city/suburbs, retailers seem to get into Limerick first. Though Cork had Mark and spencers, limerick had Zara? TK max?, B&Q, PC world and Currys before it got into Cork... I could mention many more.


As for Mahon point, Cresent SC is fairly up there in size to Mahon. The Ennis road SC is goint to take the title I believe as the biggest centre, what about all the new retailers in the Jetland??

bk wrote:

Just look at the new Mahon Point shopping Centre, the biggest shopping centre in the country, outside of Dublin. Or just take a look at the massive development going on in Blackpool in Cork, a US style strip mall type of thing is developing there.

You couldn't be more wrong about this, the retailers are crying out for good locations in Cork. Patrick St has some of the highest retail rental rates in the country. Just look at all the retailers trying to squeeze into Roches Stores.

That's is because Limerick has major problems with national route traffic having to use O'Connells street. Pedestrianisation and tunnel delays are also hindering the city attract big retailers, but still retailers are still coming to Limerick. Now the Opera centre which will have more retail space than current Mahon Point for example. Magnificent buildings along the Main street has being burnt down in the 50s and 60s, Cruises street is to small to gain footfaill and the take in of bigger retailers, Limerick has the same problem with rezoning as Cork but for different reasons of course.
Cork is not the only city with problems Bk..

bk wrote:

Mallow is 20 miles on an excellent, high quality new road, I have lots of friends who live in Mallow and commute into work (or for drinks) in Cork City

Point being? Its still not a suburb, I can say the same about Ennis if I wanted to make a comparison.

bk wrote:

BTW you are also wrong about the hinterland, if you bothered to look at the map I linked to above, you can clearly see that Corks hinterland is by far, larger and more populous then Limerick

I already explained this, I asked you a question about that map you posted, if your bothered to look at the above post again?. Population of Cork is bigger, yes, again, and again I have agreed with you on this, I don't agree with your IMO of the hinterland population. The hinterland population of Limerick is not much lower than Cork, that map identifies the pop density, not the amount. Look at Roscrea its bigger than Kilkenny this is far from true........... Please explains this, since you know this map clearly.

bk wrote:

In fact the population of Cork County is larger then Limerick, Clare and Tipperary put together.

Well the fact is Limericks hinterland touches Cork;) take Charleville for example. No one is arguing Co. Corks pop, maybe because it is by far the largest county in Ireland? no? it is by far not the most densiest...

Aidan1

The official figures for 'Metropolitan Cork', in the CASP (2000), were 345,000, estimated at that time to rise to 440,000 by 2020. Those projections have since been shown to be on the low side, as recognised in the Special Local Area Plans for Midleton, Mallow and Carrigtwohill.

That area does not include Mallow or Fermoy, but does include effective suburbs like Ballincollig and Carrigaline, and Carrigtwohill/Midleton.

Best case scenario is that Limerick is under half that (the figures on the Limerick City website give 77,000 - I would imagine that does not include those people just over the border in Co Clare ). The only way Limerick can approach Corks size is if, as the Limerickcity site tries to do, one counts the entire midwest region, Limerick, Clare and North Tipp.

Limerick has been hard done by in recent times with regard to infrastructure, but it was not badly off to begin with. The road from Portlaoise to Limerick(N7) is a lot better than the N8, the Nenagh section being a case in point. And Limerick had its airport subsidised at huge cost to the consumer and the other airports in the state for decades. Fair comparison and all that.

Now, back to the topic. Is there any official confirmation of this funding being pulled, or is it just another piece of creative journalism?

Victor

mysterious wrote:

Not to mention Limerick catchment of Galway.

OK, I think you've reached state of desperation when you claim Galway is in Limerick's catchment. Sure there will be some overlap, but each carries a similar weight.

Chris_533976

I think its clear to everyone that Coleraine is in Corks catchment :rolleyes:

Chris_533976

The funny thing about these roundabouts is theres still a bit of work going on at them.

Passed there today and the Sarsfield one has hedge clearing going on and a wall has been demolished for an approach road.

The Bandon one had a surveyor at it.

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote:

I think its clear to everyone that Coleraine is in Corks catchment :rolleyes:

That'll go down well for the inhabitants of loyalist Coleraine.

mysterious

nordydan wrote:

That'll go down well for the inhabitants of loyalist Coleraine.

yeh, Since Cork is so Big you are never 2foot away, the mighty metropolis of Cork that is. since the Fermoy bypass is opening ( no harm in being positive every now and then) bring Cork even closer to the rest of the country, now what is the next thing that Cork isn't getting enough investment on :rolleyes:

nordydan

Once that northern RR is built, Corks roads infrastrcuture for its size will be the best in ireland. I reckon they would be be better completing DC to Mallow, Macroom, and most of the way to Youghal that putting money into this project.

Victor

nordydan wrote:

That'll go down well for the inhabitants of loyalist Coleraine.

Ah, but direct rail connection (change at Belfast Central, Connolly, Dublin Heuston and Kent Station, Cork). Bus number 8.

jank

Macroom is getting a bypass, 2+1 I think, Mallow and Youghal and is part of the Atlantic corridor. But we all know thats just a pipe dream at this stage.

Bogger77

dowlingm wrote:

As for Limerick - what about the Ring Road, Patrickswell bypass, Croom bypass?

All of which are of as much benefit to North Cork and North Kerry as to Limerick County

dowlingm wrote:

Don't know Galway as well but I don't think the approach road from Dublin-Galway is much if any newer than Cork-Mallow.

Oranmore to Galway : Started end of 80's, complete early 90's. Single carraigeway from Oranmore to Athlone bypass (opened early 90s?), SC from Athlone to Dublin (Lucan), Maynooth/Kilcock opened 96/97ish. Enflield bypassed 1999/2000. Kinnegad bypassed 97/98ish.

Don't think either Limerick/Cork can look at Galway as having better transport links (slowest intercity rail line, too. Planes can't land at it's small airport in anything more than a drizzle)

Bogger77

mysterious wrote:

Ehem Limerick hinterland catchment population is only marginally smaller than Corks. I'll look for this fact soon. lol

Figures is both around 300,000 for the hinterland limerick is just marginally smaller.

Limerick is more located inland, and is more accessible to most large towns.
Located on Irelands longest and busiest river.
More national routes and rail lines interchange here.
Bigger Airport, Shannon
Of course Ennis 25,000 people only 20 miles away, and is the fastest growing town in the west of Ireland. Now ranks with Bray and Drogheda in terms of growth and size. check www.cso.ie.
Not to mention Limerick catchment of Galway.. and is Closer to Dublin than Cork is?? Shannon??? ..

Limerick's population growth is much faster than corks btw

Major point don't underestimate the catchment of Limerick.

If you want claim Galway as catchment of Limerick, then your saying anywhere within a 2hr drive at peak time is.

So Cork can claim Dungarvan, Youghal, Kilarney, Kenmare, Chair, Cashel maybe even Thurles and Waterford, While Limerick would be claiming as far as Naas and Mullingar, as well as of course Cork city.

Limerick has a free flowing southern ring road which covers 4 out of the 5 main N class roads that connect with the city: 7,20,21,24, Only N18 isnt connected to this yet. Cork's southern ring road, which couldn't be called free flowing at JLT or any of the roundabouts, takes in N 25,N27, N28 and N22.
Pretty even on that score.

Lennoxschips

I've driven around the Bandon Road roundabout everyday now for the last two weeks. I don't think it needs a flyover. It's just a badly designed junction. The roundabout should be reduced to two lanes and the roads onto it should be kept to two lanes. At the moment the biggest problems are being caused by cars and lorrys having to shift as much as three lanes on the roundabout itself, which is madness.

For example, if you're coming from the direction of the Sarsfielf roundabout and want to turn right into Bishopstown, the signs and the arrows on the road suggest you should take the right lane of three while approaching the roundabout, and then switch three lanes to the left on the roundabout itself. I've found that the best way is to take the middle lane approaching the roundabout and go into the outside lane of the roundabout straight away just after the turnoff to Ballincollig.

The whole thing is just a half arsed design and a flyover is a much too expensive solution. Just get some German or Dutch engineers to design proper level junctions. The best solution is probably to get rid of the roundabout altogether and turn it into a signalled crossing, but the powers that be seem to have a fascination with roundabouts, originally because they were too cheap to shell out on traffic lights, which they have now installed like there's no tomorrow. So we get the worst of both worlds.

mysterious

Bogger77 wrote:

If you want claim Galway as catchment of Limerick, then your saying anywhere within a 2hr drive at peak time is.

So Cork can claim Dungarvan, Youghal, Kilarney, Kenmare, Chair, Cashel maybe even Thurles and Waterford, While Limerick would be claiming as far as Naas and Mullingar, as well as of course Cork city.

Limerick has a free flowing southern ring road which covers 4 out of the 5 main N class roads that connect with the city: 7,20,21,24, Only N18 isnt connected to this yet. Cork's southern ring road, which couldn't be called free flowing at JLT or any of the roundabouts, takes in N 25,N27, N28 and N22.
Pretty even on that score.

Nope, wrong there, please take another look.
N69 is not
N18 is not.

N20 to N18 is not
N24 to N18 is not.
N7 to N18 is not. There are still unnecessary amount of heavy traffic going through, You were saying?:p

Big roundabout at Rossbrien. Oh it's not free flowing. oh and Lisnagry(nearly forgor about that one.

I stated Galway is near it's hinterland as The OP said Cork's Hinterland was a lot bigger and more significant, well I made the point that Limerick's hinterland was more unique because it's nearer to Places like Galway, Ennis etc, I didn't make it black the Galway was in it's Belt. And the fact it was more accessible to places like these.

nordydan

mysterious wrote:

Nope, wrong there, please take another look.
N69 is not
N18 is not.

N20 to N18 is not
N24 to N18 is not.
N7 to N18 is not. There are still unnecessary amount of heavy traffic going through, You were saying?:p QUOTE]


These are all getting sorted out by Limerick SRR phase 2. Are there any plans for a northern ring road at all?

PS why not just have a poll saying which is more important - cork or limerick. As someone born in kerry and travelled through limerick i would have a vested interest in seeing limerick roads getting priority, but for the good of the nation i reckon the N8 should be prioritised.

Bogger77

mysterious wrote:

Nope, wrong there, please take another look.
N69 is not
N18 is not.

N20 to N18 is not
N24 to N18 is not.
N7 to N18 is not. There are still unnecessary amount of heavy traffic going through, You were saying?:p

Big roundabout at Rossbrien. Oh it's not free flowing. oh and Lisnagry(nearly forgor about that one.

I stated Galway is near it's hinterland as The OP said Cork's Hinterland was a lot bigger and more significant, well I made the point that Limerick's hinterland was more unique because it's nearer to Places like Galway, Ennis etc, I didn't make it black the Galway was in it's Belt. And the fact it was more accessible to places like these.

Note: I said Major N class roads. N20 in Cork and N18 in Limerick are the only roads I consider major, that are not on the Ring road. N69 and N7? (road to West Cork) are n ot major compared the the cross country inter city routes. the N69 road is merely the more scenic road to Tralee, while the road to West Cork is just that, a road to a rural area.

Since the other roads are linked to the ringroads, the missing link is N7 to N18 in Limerick, N20 to N25. N69 to N20 via the link road is more than capable of handling the volume, esp once the N18 traffic is taken of that route. Considering the situation of the Ports in both. heavy traffic will always be in or near the city centers. The placing of the shopping centers near the junctions, Mahon Point and Wilton in Cork, B&Q and Ennis Road in Limerick will create bottle necks.
as for the roundabouts, only the one on the N7 at Annacothy (?) cause any sort of major hold up, and I'm presumming that it'll be replaced when the DC from Nenagh is finished. the N20 meets N7 roundabout is Limerick CC's fault, I've been told as they wish to add a 4th road to that junction.

I travel the P'laiose to Cork via Fermoy and P'loise to Cork via Limerick routes twice a week, I'm well used to the hold ups on those routes.

One of Limericks reasons for continuing traffic via city center or close to it, is the old relief road/childers road from Parkway to Roxboro and onto the N21, unless there's heavy traffic, ie rush hour or Saturday shopping madness, it's usually as quick to head that route than the loop of the ring road.

mysterious

Bogger77 wrote:

Note: I said Major N class roads. N20 in Cork and N18 in Limerick are the only roads I consider major, that are not on the Ring road. N69 and N7? (road to West Cork) are n ot major compared the the cross country inter city routes. the N69 road is merely the more scenic road to Tralee, while the road to West Cork is just that, a road to a rural area.

Since the other roads are linked to the ringroads, the missing link is N7 to N18 in Limerick, N20 to N25. N69 to N20 via the link road is more than capable of handling the volume, esp once the N18 traffic is taken of that route. Considering the situation of the Ports in both. heavy traffic will always be in or near the city centers. The placing of the shopping centers near the junctions, Mahon Point and Wilton in Cork, B&Q and Ennis Road in Limerick will create bottle necks.
as for the roundabouts, only the one on the N7 at Annacothy (?) cause any sort of major hold up, and I'm presumming that it'll be replaced when the DC from Nenagh is finished. the N20 meets N7 roundabout is Limerick CC's fault, I've been told as they wish to add a 4th road to that junction.

I travel the P'laiose to Cork via Fermoy and P'loise to Cork via Limerick routes twice a week, I'm well used to the hold ups on those routes.

One of Limericks reasons for continuing traffic via city center or close to it, is the old relief road/childers road from Parkway to Roxboro and onto the N21, unless there's heavy traffic, ie rush hour or Saturday shopping madness, it's usually as quick to head that route than the loop of the ring road.

It's a matter opinon since you said that All the National routes are doing fineconverging the city that are not properly interchanged at the unfinished Southering ring.
Cork and Waterford traffic have to enter the city to enroute to let's say N18 Shannon and Galway.

It's at a stage now where all the three bridges are congested at rush hour, it's crazy. You tell me it's able to handle the traffic, le't not make it personal to Limerick, but It's choking the city as it is.

The city centre remodiling cannot go ahead until this heavy traffic is removed.

Finally the N69 is a scenic route of course, but it's also connected to Foynes Port, which is booming, I know it looks like a heap of sheds:D But still. There is a large amount of H.G.V that could be taken off the streets off the city, don't you think. I'm just amazed as how the reaction that Sure Limerick is doing ok maybe 10 years time when they get NRA asses in gear.