NRA pulling funding for Sarsfield/Bandon RD roundabouts in Cork?

Chris_533976

Ok anyone from Cork knows that they're putting the huge flyover over the Kinsale Road Roundabout, elimatinating a huge bottleneck. The plans were to build two more flyovers, one each over the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts. The Kinsale Road one is to be finished in a few months, and I heard on here that the other two were due to start early next year.

I've just seen a post on Archiseek that the NRA has pulled funding from the two projects! They apparently said it in the Examiner today, but I couldnt find anything on the website about it.

Anyone know any more about this? IMO this is absolutely NUTS and a really stupid and lame idea. These roundabouts HAVE to be fixed, or the traffic will still be terrible on the South Ring for years to come.

Anyone?

jank

It was in the examiner today. Their excuse is the prority is the fermoy bypass (which is PPP anyway?!?) and the mitchelstown relif road which is to open in a few weeks!?

The fermoy M8 is to open in a few months too, so why use that as a 95% complete project as an excuse to to not fund another project that will just get more and more expensive when its put on the back burner.

Its the same with the kinsale flyover. It was supposed to start years ago but the NRA wouldnt fund it until last year...

So is this another case of Cork Infrasturcture getting shafted!!!

The total cost of the flyovers is 80m today which is peanuts to what is to be spent in the country especially dublin *cough* 1 billion port tunnel *cough*

Oh and the midleton line is going to be ready for 2009 almost 6 years after is was announced!? :rolleyes:

Cork corporation and council are way ahead of the game when it coms to forward planning but its always the lack of funds for projects that cause the delays

Chris_533976

Wow that sounds like a lame excuse. Yeah Cork is getting shafted all the time. The Sarsfield roundabout will be traffic hell from now on. But they've already removed half a football pitch and started concreting it over for the traffic diversions at the Sarsfield site? Wonder what will happen there now.

In any case I'm glad I'm moving away from here in the next few months. Its hard to tolerate the level of stupidity in this country anymore.

At least in Germany the interurbans are complete, proper rail network, proper bus network, S and U-Bahns in most big cities and all the roads are well signposted and dont have a pothole in sight.

Bamboozled

I read that its only being delayed as there are more pressing projects. That its not not going to happen, but it will in time ( probably when the place is at a complete standstill all day rather than most of the day.)

mysterious

jank wrote:

It was in the examiner today. Their excuse is the prority is the fermoy bypass (which is PPP anyway?!?) and the mitchelstown relif road which is to open in a few weeks!?

The fermoy M8 is to open in a few months too, so why use that as a 95% complete project as an excuse to to not fund another project that will just get more and more expensive when its put on the back burner.

Its the same with the kinsale flyover. It was supposed to start years ago but the NRA wouldnt fund it until last year...

So is this another case of Cork Infrasturcture getting shafted!!!

The total cost of the flyovers is 80m today which is peanuts to what is to be spent in the country especially dublin *cough* 1 billion port tunnel *cough*

Oh and the midleton line is going to be ready for 2009 almost 6 years after is was announced!? :rolleyes:

Cork corporation and council are way ahead of the game when it coms to forward planning but its always the lack of funds for projects that cause the delays

Do yourself a favour, get over yourself... Projects being delayed is not a new phenomenon to Cork or the Whole country for that matter.

Cork alone has more road projects completed than any other region outside of Dublin.

Take Limerick for example not a single section of the M7/N7 has started at this side of Portlaoise. The N7 to Nenagh was on of the first mooted so called motorways to be built. Yet it's not even started.

Another example the Shannon rail link? also shafted for now, yet the midleton line gets the go ahead, regardless of the delay. Your still complaining.

Cork schemes that have being completed or near completion..

Kinsale interchange
Ballincollig bypass
Fermoy
Mitchellstown relief and the new N8(just started)
Youghal bypass only completed early last year?
The N20 upgrade to Mallow, first 2+1 scheme?

There are many more....

Galway and Limerick have had no new road schemes yet to start.

The Limerick tunnel was delay by 2years to date. postphoned till spring of this year, and still hasn't started. I could go on!!!!!

Enough of your sarsfield roundabout...:mad:


GET over yourself

dowlingm

mysterious

Midleton reopening has been 20 years in the making since the CASP/LUTS process started, including six since the Arup report. Limerick should get improved service no doubt but Midleton has been very patient and doesn't deserve the swipe you took at it.

I have been delayed in traffic for 30mins-1 hour on all the projects you mentioned for Cork except Mallow-Cork (the road with a bend for every day of the year with a consequent safety record). My family comes from an area between Mitchelstown and Fermoy so I am only too familiar with its congestion, especially Fermoy where all traffic from the N8 and N72 goes over one 2+1 (barely) bridge.

As for Limerick - what about the Ring Road, Patrickswell bypass, Croom bypass? Don't know Galway as well but I don't think the approach road from Dublin-Galway is much if any newer than Cork-Mallow.

Victor

Chris_533976 wrote:

The plans were to build two more flyovers, one each over the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts.

Not quite. The plan seemed to be to build a viaduct between the two roundabouts and make it four carriageway, i.e. Wilton traffic would pass through both roundabouts and then join the mainline when going to say, Macroom.

"Oddly" they took the design off the website.

There is this though http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzrhSpD1M8MJ:www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF+Sarsfield+/+Bandon+Road+roundabouts&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=5

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Show.aspx?ID=APR036871

jank

mysterious wrote:

Do yourself a favour, get over yourself... Projects being delayed is not a new phenomenon to Cork or the Whole country for that matter.

Cork alone has more road projects completed than any other region outside of Dublin.

Take Limerick for example not a single section of the M7/N7 has started at this side of Portlaoise. The N7 to Nenagh was on of the first mooted so called motorways to be built. Yet it's not even started.

Another example the Shannon rail link? also shafted for now, yet the midleton line gets the go ahead, regardless of the delay. Your still complaining.

Cork schemes that have being completed or near completion..

Kinsale interchange
Ballincollig bypass
Fermoy
Mitchellstown relief and the new N8(just started)
Youghal bypass only completed early last year?
The N20 upgrade to Mallow, first 2+1 scheme?

There are many more....

Galway and Limerick have had no new road schemes yet to start.

The Limerick tunnel was delay by 2years to date. postphoned till spring of this year, and still hasn't started. I could go on!!!!!

Enough of your sarsfield roundabout...:mad:


GET over yourself

eh right.. whatever!!

:rolleyes:
Have a look at the CSAP and see what Cork SHOULD have in plan in a few years time...

They wont make the same mistake as dublin I can tell you that

Chris_533976

Victor wrote:

Not quite. The plan seemed to be to build a viaduct between the two roundabouts and make it four carriageway, i.e. Wilton traffic would pass through both roundabouts and then join the mainline when going to say, Macroom.

"Oddly" they took the design off the website.

There is this though http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzrhSpD1M8MJ:www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF+Sarsfield+/+Bandon+Road+roundabouts&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=5

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Show.aspx?ID=APR036871

Thanks

Yeah theyve kinda done that at the Kinsale road one to prevent weaving on and off the carriageway. Its gonna end up at about 8 lanes altogether. At least they're finally trying to future proof the route with the extra lanes.

In any case tho, its a pity this is going to be delayed. It is essential, not as important as the M50 upgrade (say) but much more important than some of the poxy realignments going on elsewhere in the country.

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious

Midleton reopening has been 20 years in the making since the CASP/LUTS process started, including six since the Arup report. Limerick should get improved service no doubt but Midleton has been very patient and doesn't deserve the swipe you took at it.

I have been delayed in traffic for 30mins-1 hour on all the projects you mentioned for Cork except Mallow-Cork (the road with a bend for every day of the year with a consequent safety record). My family comes from an area between Mitchelstown and Fermoy so I am only too familiar with its congestion, especially Fermoy where all traffic from the N8 and N72 goes over one 2+1 (barely) bridge.

As for Limerick - what about the Ring Road, Patrickswell bypass, Croom bypass? Don't know Galway as well but I don't think the approach road from Dublin-Galway is much if any newer than Cork-Mallow.

I wasn't taking a swipe at the Midleton line, I was just pointing out the fact it's not the only line that needs to get mooted, and I did say it's going ahead, as the Shannon link will be at least 15 years, we are talking 3/4 Km spur:rolleyes: to the Ennis line....

Again I just pointed out the fact that Fermoy and other places are all getting Motorway bypasses etc...

Though you mention Croom and Patrickswell.?
Croom village was a deathtrap with V/S shaped jucntion(IMO was the only reason it got the go ahead for a bypass even if it were 6 mile tailbacks on it) and trucks couldn't get through. The road was one of the most dangerous stretches on the N20 not to mention the heavy traffic that trunddled through.

As for Patrickswell, Its bypassed like nearly 10years ago!! can we stay in the 21st century? or do you want to compare back then? when Limerick had no first class road like Cork had.... ffs, big celebration. Well Patrickwell was infamous for its Delays, there were far worse during the summer way back prior to the bypass when Fermoy only had a dozen cars flowing through at the that time.

Practically all N21/N20 traffic had to squeese through!!! traffic is roughly about 14,000 N21 and 12,500 a day For Cork/Tralee bound. Now combine it and without the local traffic on its main street.... Glad it was bypass don't you think...

My whole point is Cork is getting it's fair share of its slice of new infastructural road projects..

Limerick got the Southern ring road, ffs sake how long had Cork had its Southern Ring, stop suggesting assed comparisons!!!!! Cork is to get a Northern Ring, Note just to get nitty and nutty, Limerick southern ring is'nt even finished, should I add...


Seriously if I was a Corkonian I would be impressed with the level of attention the NRA has given ye in the last few years.!!!!

:rolleyes:

Roll on the N7....

mysterious

jank wrote:

eh right.. whatever!!

:rolleyes:
Have a look at the CSAP and see what Cork SHOULD have in plan in a few years time...

They wont make the same mistake as dublin I can tell you that

So this interests me because?

dowlingm

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

For a Shannon link to work (a concept I support incidentally) Limerick City and Clare councils have to co-operate. However with Limerick trying to take a chunk out of Clare that's just not going to happen. You should get out your ruler though - even Shannon airport to Sixmilebridge with a perpendicular spur is about 10km rather than 3-4 and that's with no connection to Shannon town and Ennis passengers having to reverse out to Sixmilebridge again to get to Limerick - I don't think so! Sixmilebridge-(Shannon Airport/Free Zone/Town)-Bunratty-Cratloe could be a winner if the line was fast but then you're talking maybe 20-25km.

As for Cork the "South Ring Road" was the "South Link Road" - a couple of km from Eglinton St to the Airport Roundabout for years, all the major stuff like Douglas bypass, the tunnel and the Wilton link is really not as old as you think.

GAA jersey infrastructure planning can't work, that Dublin or Cork could only get as much as could be spent in Leitrim!

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

some sections opened in mid 2001.. still talking 5 years quite some time considering the amount of roads opening in Ireland since then. I'm talking about the interurban and major routes that have been under planning, most of the Limerick sections have been shafted while every single project in Cork has got the go ahead even with the delays.

dowlingm wrote:

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

I like the way locals exaggerates the size of their cities... Cork is only twice the size of Limerick. And please get your facts straight. Limerick is not technically losing city status.... It's a long battle over the boundary issue. if the boundary issue was sorted the city would be over 100,000, still leaves Places like Cratloe and Patrickswell outside the boundary!!!

dowlingm wrote:

For a Shannon link to work (a concept I support incidentally) Limerick City and Clare councils have to co-operate. However with Limerick trying to take a chunk out of Clare that's just not going to happen. You should get out your ruler though - even Shannon airport to Sixmilebridge with a perpendicular spur is about 10km rather than 3-4 and that's with no connection to Shannon town and Ennis passengers having to reverse out to Sixmilebridge again to get to Limerick - I don't think so! Sixmilebridge-(Shannon Airport/Free Zone/Town)-Bunratty-Cratloe could be a winner if the line was fast but then you're talking maybe 20-25km.

Your just making it complicated for your arguement. It does not have to work like that. It doesn't have to branch off at sixmilebridge, although the interchange will more than likely be there alright. It could be a few miles closer the the Shannon direction of the Ennis- Limerick Line.

dowlingm wrote:

As for Cork the "South Ring Road" was the "South Link Road" - a couple of km from Eglinton St to the Airport Roundabout for years, all the major stuff like Douglas bypass, the tunnel and the Wilton link is really not as old as you think.

Silly arguement here, most road like these in Ireland are new, you'd want to be more specific....

Again you have pointed out another road that Cork has under it's belt, the only city in Ireland that has a proper 4 lane carrigway (with the exception of the Chapelizod bypass) from the South link bypass to the city..

Limerick still has more unecessary traffic trunddling through, and still waiting for the Southern ring to finish since 1996. Yes 50% of it's finished but hell it's more badly needed than the Sarsfield roundabouts if I must arise it. Cork still is complaining that it is'nt getting enough projects done and finshed... Now wanting a Northern ring road comparable if not more impressive than Dublin's network, you tell me size compares. If that's the case Dublin is 10 times bigger and should get a few more orbitals many times more than Cork. It's all a bit stupid, but since you put it like that, I just want to elaborate on it.

Btw Cork is Limerck's main competitor Not Kilkenny, Waterford and Galway, Limerick's economic engine can easilly par with Cork. just because Cork is that much bigger doesn't mean Limerick is that far behind in economic activity and wealth, more cars etc... I could debate this but, it would only cause a shouting match;)

bk

All from the 2002 CSO:

Cork Total: 447,829
Cork City: 123,062
Cork County: 324,767

Limerick Total: 175,304
Limerick City: 54,023
Limerick County: 121,281

So Cork should be getting about 3 times the investment of Limerick.

Personally I wonder how much this has to do with the really good job Cork City and County Councils do in developing an excellent overall plan for the development of the county and executing on them.

mysterious

bk wrote:

All from the 2002 CSO:

Cork Total: 447,829
Cork City: 123,062
Cork County: 324,767

Limerick Total: 175,304
Limerick City: 54,023
Limerick County: 121,281

So Cork should be getting about 3 times the investment of Limerick.

Personally I wonder how much this has to do with the really good job Cork City and County Councils do in developing an excellent overall plan for the development of the county and executing on them.

Now now that's SILLY we are talking about the city of Limerick and Cork...
Not "Counties"

Silly silly silly.....

Some parts of Cork are closer to Limerick Like Charleville?? off the top of my head, pathetic arguement, unless you want to continue this..


I would add since you mention Counties, Limerick's conutbations spreads into three counties Clare, Limerick itself and Tipperary(newport) however Cork does not spread into other counties. for that matter.
Funny trick you had there.

bk

mysterious wrote:

I would add since you mention Counties, Limerick's conutbations spreads into three counties Clare, Limerick itself and Tipperary(newport) however Cork does not spread into other counties. for that matter.
Funny trick you had there.

WTF are you talking about, that is fact, that is from the CSO, no tricks, just exact, real figures.

According to Wikipedia the population of Limerick including suburbs and environs is 93,321.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick

Also according to Wikipedia the population of Cork including suburbs is 186,239.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork

So Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick. Get over it, it isn't a big deal, but it will have an effect on where infrastructure money is spent.

Also I think because Cork City and County Council have their stuff together much better then Limerick and it's neighbours, means the government see it as a safer bet for regional investment. I think Limerick City and County Council need to work closely with the neighbouring County Councils to improve their lot. Don't blame me for it, complain to your local Council, to get their act together and put forward better plans like in Cork.

Chris_533976

Yay a big fight in my thread

I'm proud

mysterious

bk wrote:

WTF are you talking about, that is fact, that is from the CSO, no tricks, just exact, real figures.

According to Wikipedia the population of Limerick including suburbs and environs is 93,321.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick

Also according to Wikipedia the population of Cork including suburbs is 186,239.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork

So Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick. Get over it, it isn't a big deal, but it will have an effect on where infrastructure money is spent.

Also I think because Cork City and County Council have their stuff together much better then Limerick and it's neighbours, means the government see it as a safer bet for regional investment. I think Limerick City and County Council need to work closely with the neighbouring County Councils to improve their lot. Don't blame me for it, complain to your local Council, to get their act together and put forward better plans like in Cork.

www.limerickcity.ie has the population figures for with the boundary ests.. Not all the suburbs are included, like Annacotty and Lisnagry just to name afew.

Yep agree with your point that Cork seem to work to well together with the city council and county council

funny you say

bk wrote:

Don't blame me for it

jank

Mysterious seems to have 4th city syndrome

murphaph

Cork city AND county (given their relatively excellent cooperation) are the most shafted local authority areas in Ireland. I'm a Dub and readily admit that Cork has had better planning for many many years now. They also are net contributors to the exchequer (Limerick isn't) and yet have a fairly serious infrastructure defecit, nevermind some of the worst city bus services in Ireland. Cork deserves much much better for it's not insignificant contribution to the national economy. Cork subsidises Limerick's roads as it is, so let's not forget that either

The pathetic squabbling that goes on between Limerick City and County Council, Clare CC and Tipperary CC does not inspire any confidence in me. I would be doubly irate if I were a Corkonian knowing that my local authorities have had their planning in order for years and also knowin that my taxes were being sent to the mess that is the midwest to build roads there, roads that Clare CC would grant PP for one off houses to ribbon along if they could!

bk

mysterious wrote:

www.limerickcity.ie has the population figures for with the boundary ests.. Not all the suburbs are included, like Annacotty and Lisnagry just to name afew.

And the Cork figure doesn't include all the suburbs and commuter towns of Cork city like Blarney, Mallow, etc. and it also doesn't include the large hinterland around Cork City from where people commute into the city to work.

I know that a lot of my friends and family who have being buying houses recently, have been buying in the rural areas immediately surrounding Cork, they wouldn't actually be measured as being in Cork City, but they are all within 5 miles of the city and they all commute to work their.

I'd say that the majority of the 324,767 people who live in Cork County actually live close to the city or in a Commuter town of it and many would commute to Cork City.

murphaph wrote:

nevermind some of the worst city bus services in Ireland.

This really annoys me, I live in Dublin now and Dublin Bus is vastly superior to Cork. I hate the way that Cork buses park in the city centre for 30 minutes and they are no where near as frequent as DB and they never put on extra buses at rush hour, unlike DB. Cork bus fleet is only 86 strong, for only about €20 million, you could double the number of buses and vastly improve the service.

And with all of this Cork City and County Councils have great plans for buses with Green routes, park and rides, etc. But Bus Eireann aren't getting the funding for new buses and they aren't doing their part (parking in the city centre) :mad:

Bards

Need I remind people living in Cork and complaing about lack of infrastructure, that cork has the Lee tunnel - Toll Free

Waterford City bypass is finally in construction 3 years behind schedule and will be tolled. Limerick's new tunnel under the Shannon will be tolled.

so stop complaining as ye have got enough infrastructure down the years when everyone else was sidelined

Chris_533976

The reason the Lee Tunnel isnt tolled is because it was built solely with EU money. If it was built nowadays it would definately be tolled. They're still mooting adding a toll to it, but the way through Cork to avoid it is too well known and would be used, jamming up the city.

jank

Toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel?

Have ye not learned anything about the M50 fiasco??

Bamboozled

Yeah we have.
And trying to get to the Tunnel is as bad as trying to get to the toll bridge on the M50!

dowlingm

they were going to toll the JLT and then figured out that they couldn't fit plazas on the north end for safety reasons because of the Little Island ramp. Personally I think all M roads should be tolled on a per kilometre basis using a national transponder system, including finding a legal way to do it on existing untolled ones - then it's all fair right?

1huge1

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious - I drove the N21 frequently between 1996 and 2003 and Patrickswell was not bypassed until near the end of that - 2001 is what I see on google.

Don't get me wrong - I like Limerick, went to college there around the same time as Mayor Scully who was then SU president, but geographically and demographically Cork is far larger so of course it's going to get more. More people, more land area, more cars, more taxpayers. Your competition is Galway, Kilkenny and Waterford, not a city three times your size that did not have to plead with its residents to come home smartly from the Munster-Leinster rugby for fear of losing city status.

not to go of point here but cork city is not 3 times limerick cities size its just that when people talk about limerick population it only counts the city centre as you probably already know
limerick is in competition with cork
galway with watherford and kilkenny
ill admit cork has been screwed over especially witht the midleton line but as has limerick

bk

1huge1 wrote:

not to go of point here but cork city is not 3 times limerick cities size its just that when people talk about limerick population it only counts the city centre as you probably already know

As I have clearly pointed out with official statistics from the CSO, it is quiet clear that Cork City is at least twice the size of Limerick and probably serves a population 3 times larger then Limerick when you take into account the commuter towns and hinterland of both cities.

This excellent map quiet clearly shows the size of both Cities and the surrounding areas they serve:
http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/whoweare/poster.htm

From this map it is blindingly obvious that Cork city serves a much larger population and surrounding area.

parsi

bk wrote:

This really annoys me, I live in Dublin now and Dublin Bus is vastly superior to Cork. I hate the way that Cork buses park in the city centre for 30 minutes and they are no where near as frequent as DB and they never put on extra buses at rush hour,

What routes park for 30 mins ? The 10 and 2 are crosstown and they stop long enough just to pick up (max 10 mins) ?

Bamboozled

I remember the number 8 used stop at the Statue for a while/20 mins. usually when changing drivers.

Same on the other side by the Savoy.

But i dont know if they still do it. I've a car now and dont even know where the number 8 stops in town any more since they pulled up Patrick Street and moved the bus stops around the place when they were doing it.

mysterious

Ehem Limerick hinterland catchment population is only marginally smaller than Corks. I'll look for this fact soon. lol

Figures is both around 300,000 for the hinterland limerick is just marginally smaller.

Limerick is more located inland, and is more accessible to most large towns.
Located on Irelands longest and busiest river.
More national routes and rail lines interchange here.
Bigger Airport, Shannon
Of course Ennis 25,000 people only 20 miles away, and is the fastest growing town in the west of Ireland. Now ranks with Bray and Drogheda in terms of growth and size. check www.cso.ie.
Not to mention Limerick catchment of Galway.. and is Closer to Dublin than Cork is?? Shannon??? ..

Limerick's population growth is much faster than corks btw

Major point don't underestimate the catchment of Limerick.

I know it's look like a rant, and I'm partly to blame, but i cannot stress anymore that Cork IS getting a lot of investment more than Galway and Limerick combines even so. AND corkonians are still complaining????


This explains why more retailers and distrubution centre's locate here. As Limerick is the fastest growing commercial region outside of Dublin. This is widly known.

I must say Mallow is a good few miles out to be a suburb reallly