The Koranic Code (tm)

fly_agaric

InFront wrote:

And some people, not just Muslims, would see the girls outside The Wez in Donnybrook as oppressed by the West. Here the burden of dress is placed on them by social cues, but the impetus is just as intense as the impetus on Islamic women in a Muslim state which enforces purdah (the hijab) through religion or, like in Pakistan, social tradition. Almost all of the women in my extended family be they in the West or the M. East wear what would be considered very moderate Islamic dress (pak-chadar)

If the girls wearing the tat because of aggressive advertising and what their pals think are "oppressed" then muslim girls in the West who wear the hijab because of what their family thinks and the religion that has been instilled in them must also be "oppressed". God, everybody is so "oppressed" aren't they?

Both are not IMO.

Peer pressure and the bull spewed out by admen (+rubbish from films, music) in Western countries (all often contrary to what parents and family may want + definitely contrary to what religious muslim parents and family would want) are very powerful.

I don't think they stack up in terms of force compared centuries of tradition, family pressure, and more importantly in some muslim countries, the force of law (i.e. real coercion/oppression) - in addition to peer pressures of course.

People in a so-called "liberal" society should be free to wear just what they want within some limits imposed by consideration of others IMO.

growler wrote:

right now in the UK I only see pandering and little reciprocation.

It seems that way from the media, but as has been pointed out, one can get an overly pessimistic view of things from paying too much attention to that.

growler wrote:

It's frustrating to see the freedom of a liberal society being used (dare i say , abused) to promote illeberal ideals.

I know what you mean, but all people can do is hope these people (very conservative religious type muslims who get off on telling other people to live how they/their God wants) don't have much success. That they stay a small minority of a minority.

I'm really just very thankful there aren't enough muslims in Ireland for us to have to deal with this stuff and think we should be very wary about too much immigration from muslim countries.
I hope we can sit this out on the sideline.

InFront wrote:

Complete refusal to allow their children to adapt to the society would be absolutely impossible unless they were locked up in a box, and Ive never seen this happen, nor do I know or know of anyone who has refused to let their child integrate. Where would they learn/ go to school/ play???

It is impossible in Ireland.

The thing is if enough people who think like this are gathered together in a group within a society, if they are allowed to by govt. pandering, or maybe forced to by discrimination from the rest of the society, they can cut themselves off + become a "society within a society". If they reach a critical mass they may then try to change the rest of the society around them.

Maybe it makes me closeminded but I don't want to see the pretty liberal approach of Western countries to individual freedoms changed because I think it is correct.

Ireland probably has a fresher memory of the downsides of the "Taliban" way of running a society than most Western countries.

InFront

fly_agaric wrote:

If the girls wearing the tat because of aggressive advertising and what their pals think are "oppressed" then muslim girls in the West who wear the hijab because of what their family thinks and the religion that has been instilled in them must also be "oppressed". God, everybody is so "oppressed" aren't they?

Both are not IMO.

.

Your first paragraph is the logic of people who say Muslim women observing Hijab are "oppressed" and thats all I was saying. If you read my post, that was clear. I agree that neither group are actually oppressed.

I'm really just very thankful there aren't enough muslims in Ireland for us to have to deal with this stuff and think we should be very wary about too much immigration from muslim countries.
I hope we can sit this out on the sideline.

That awful word coexistence springs to mind. You acknowledge Muslims must exist (cheers mate) but not too many in "your" town. Well Im a Muslim, Islam is the root and branch of my life, it was from the day I was born and will be until the day I die, and this is as much my country, or our country, as it is yours. Furthermore, theres nothing I would like more than planes full from Islamabad or Dubai or Bangladesh arriving here with new settlers to add to what is becoming a vibrant, multicultural state in Ireland, despite people of your narrowmindedness who fear such occurances, and such close communities as secretive or dangerous or whatever it is you think or dont think.

Did the UK put a wall on Irish immigration there despite all of the trouble it got from... our country? Never. Why do you think that Ireland should now watch (more accurately peer at) the amount of Muslims taking up residency?

Do you advocate refusing citizenship on account of religion? Or is it just the Iraqis? Afghans? Pakistanis? Paliestinians? Malaysians? Africans? What? If too many people convert to Islam ought we turf them out? Get real.

fly_agaric

InFront wrote:

That awful word coexistence springs to mind. You acknowledge Muslims must exist (cheers mate) but not too many in "your" town. Well Im a Muslim, Islam is the root and branch of my life, it was from the day I was born and will be until the day I die, and this is as much my country, or our country, as it is yours.

You are taking it personally I see.:( Please point out where I called your right to be in Ireland or to be considered Irish (if you think thats so great or important) into question anyway?

I'd really like to know, who is this nebulous "our" though? I really get the feeling it would it be everyone at any point on earth (potentially all 6 billion of them) who would like Irish residency or a passport, or would you be ever so *discriminatory* and limit it to just the muslims who would like one or the other? :rolleyes:

InFront wrote:

Furthermore, theres nothing I would like more than planes full from Islamabad or Dubai or Bangladesh arriving here with new settlers to add to what is becoming a vibrant, multicultural state in Ireland, despite people of your narrowmindedness who fear such occurances, and such close communities as secretive or dangerous or whatever it is you think or dont think.

LOL, good for you! That would teach me! Yet another sad "there should be no borders in our World" idealist/dreamer gets the scent of a bigot and goes on the attack. Ah well, I should have expected it after the last time I posted a similar opinion on muslim immigration to Ireland.

Probably should have kept my opinion to myself given that you say you are a muslim. How trollish of me really.

Anyway, what would be the end result of your planefuls of muslims arriving fresh from the Islamic world every day for the next few years do you think?

Care to speculate for me about the wonderful vibrant multicultural paradise we would have in Ireland if your vision came to pass?

InFront wrote:

Did the UK put a wall on Irish immigration there despite all of the trouble it got from... our country? Never.

Maybe the UK should get a medal for their tolerance? Or not.

The UK is next door. There are several million people of close Irish descent living in it. I wouldn't know the figures but there must be quite large numbers of people of Britsh descent living in Ireland. Since movement of people has being going on for so long between the UK and Ireland (probably since homo sap. got all the way out to the edge of Europe), in some ways even talking in these kind of terms is a bit silly really. Also, we were part of the "glorious" empire of the British long before any muslim countries, before there really was an "empire" as such, and our problems affecting them negatively over the years were somewhat a case of chickens coming home to roost. Oh, I almost forgot, they even have a land border with us and a million or so of their citizens to the north of this land border can claim dual citizenship here if they want.

It would have been kind of hard and inconvenient for them, as well as for us, don't you think, to "put up a wall" in the face of all that.

The nearest majority muslim country to Ireland would be, oh, off the top of my head over 1 thousand miles away, Pakistan is several thousand miles away and, as of yet, there are few links between Ireland and muslim countries (compare Britain and that empire + its strong links with very many muslim countries). Muslim emigration to Ireland has been quite small so "putting up a wall" (or less melodramatically, restricting immigration) is perfectly possible and reasonable. In fact, I think it happens already, doesn't it?

InFront wrote:

Why do you think that Ireland should now watch (more accurately peer at) the amount of Muslims taking up residency?

Why "peer"? Because it sounds nastier I suppose.

Anyway, because we don't know the answers to the kind of questions I posed earlier, inviting large numbers of muslim immigrants into the country would seem to me to be playing a kind of russian roulette.
We would be better to see how things go over the next decade or two on the continent and in the UK.

InFront wrote:

Do you advocate refusing citizenship on account of religion? Or is it just the Iraqis? Afghans? Pakistanis? Paliestinians? Malaysians? Africans?

Restrictions on residency, maybe entry too, based on country of origin will do.

For an example see the US's list of "axis of evil" countries + "terrorist sponsors" etc whose citizens find it that bit harder to go live, work, and play in the US.

InFront wrote:

What? If too many people convert to Islam ought we turf them out?

No, if the people here heed the call and for some reason decide to turn Ireland back into a nother God-fearing litttle country (this time muslim instead of catholic) it is just too bad really.

I think I may take a plane out of here if that happens, if anywhere better will let me in...alot of countries are quite picky about who they let in you know...you open borders people do realise that, don't you?

InFront

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd really like to know, who is this nebulous "our" though? I really get the feeling it would it be everyone at any point on earth (potentially all 6 billion of them) who would like Irish residency or a passport,

The "our" I was referring to in calling this 'our country' was actually you and I, since it is wrong to refer to Ireland as yours or mine. You did not deny that I was Irish, but your statement on limiting the amount of Mulsims who eneter Ireland seems to forget that Muslims are also citizens and have a say on immigration to their country, Ireland. These Mulisms are as Irish as you are and no less.
I do not think that everyone who applies for an Irish passport should receive it, I just think it should not depend on people to be of certain religions or not. Your statement on controlling the amount of Muslims entering this country contradicts that idea.

or would you be ever so *discriminatory* and limit it to just the muslims who would like one or the other? :rolleyes:

No what made you think this?

Yet another sad "there should be no borders in our World" idealist/dreamer gets the scent of a bigot and goes on the attack. Ah well, I should have expected it

What I said in relation to people coming here was actually a statement that I hope to see stronger international communities settle here as part of the wider irish community over the coming years. They have a lot of good to bring us, but their entry should be regulated, I think we both agree on that. Its okay to stop people coming here for the sake of numbers or economics, but not becuase they are a certain religion or nationality.

How trollish of me really.

Care to speculate for me about the wonderful vibrant multicultural paradise we would have in Ireland if your vision came to pass?

In a country of controlled emigration from a wide international community: the same as we have now but even more diversity, more thoughtful integration of different communities, and less xenophobia because of it.

It would have been kind of hard and inconvenient for them, as well as for us, don't you think, to "put up a wall" in the face of all that.

The USA and Canada manage it, as do most neighbouring countries. The UK put zero restriction on Irish Catholics entering throughout the troubles... why on earth should a modern neutral state like Ireland put a cap on the amount of Muslims allowed to become residents. If you worded that post wrong say so, its fine. Otherwise if youre still seriously suggesting maintaining numbers of Muslims in ireland low by weeding them out of visa applications, then yourw talking nonsense.

Muslim emigration to Ireland has been quite small so "putting up a wall" (or less melodramatically, restricting immigration) is perfectly possible and reasonable. In fact, I think it happens already, doesn't it?

No. The block on total migration occurs as it should, they dont actually take religious worship into account.

fly_agaric

InFront wrote:

The "our" I was referring to in calling this 'our country' was actually you and I, since it is wrong to refer to Ireland as yours or mine. You did not deny that I was Irish, but your statement on limiting the amount of Mulsims who enter Ireland seems to forget that Muslims are also citizens and have a say on immigration to their country, Ireland. These Mulisms are as Irish as you are and no less.

What I said was

I'm really just very thankful there aren't enough muslims in Ireland for us to have to deal with this stuff and think we should be very wary about too much immigration from muslim countries.
I hope we can sit this out on the sideline.

Irish muslims do have to "deal with this stuff". I'm sorry for the implied exclusion there. At the moment it (muslims and how they reconcile their faith with living in the West) doesn't involve people in Ireland who are not muslims very much and I was expressing a selfish hope that things might stay that way.

Just as an example, if muslims were even 5 % of the population in this country, our current primary school system would be completely indefensible (if it isn't already) IMO and you would see alot more impetus to change it, with all the cans of worms that would open.

InFront wrote:

No what made you think this?

I was kind of being sarcastic. I thought you were using "our" to refer to all the potential immigrants to Ireland wherever they may be and was suggesting you might limit yourself to "just" the muslims to bring the numbers down, but that doing so would be discrimination.

InFront wrote:

What I said in relation to people coming here was actually a statement that I hope to see stronger international communities settle here as part of the wider irish community over the coming years.

Well, you said,

Furthermore, theres nothing I would like more than planes full from Islamabad or Dubai or Bangladesh arriving here with new settlers to add to what is becoming a vibrant, multicultural state in Ireland, despite people of your narrowmindedness

i.e. you said I was narrowminded (or a bigot) by wanting to restrict immigration of muslims and that you'd love to see lots of muslim immigration happen despite the opinions of people like me.

It is okay. I can take it.

InFront wrote:

The USA and Canada manage it (, as do most neighbouring countries.

AFAIK the US became more restrictive of immigration and travel from certain countries after Sept. 11th and all immigrants and travellers are subject to more security checks etc.

However, both the US and Canada have very high levels of legal immigration for work and study.
I think Canada has the higest (legal/quantified anyway) immigration rate in the world at the moment.

I would not call that "putting up a wall" to anybody.

In addition, the US's southern border is somewhat porous, and has been for many years.

InFront wrote:

The UK put zero restriction on Irish Catholics entering throughout the troubles...

let me finish that...apart from extra security checks at the border, ports and airports, and the offputting fact that plenty of innocent people got banged up because they tipped some red flag or other, or the soldiers and police were in a píssy mood or they happened to be in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

As I said, it would have been very hard for them to go as far as to "put a wall up" against Irish travel to the UK mainland.

Maybe if the level of threat from the IRA had been as big as the level of threat from these new Islamic terrorists they would have been more restrictive.

InFront wrote:

why on earth should a modern neutral state like Ireland put a cap on the amount of Muslims allowed to become residents. If you worded that post wrong say so, its fine. Otherwise if youre still seriously suggesting maintaining numbers of Muslims in ireland low by weeding them out of visa applications, then yourw talking nonsense.

I'm talking "nonsense". That would be the upshot of what i meant, but I'm sure the immigration people would come up with a nicer wording.

I don't like the extremely all-consuming no middle ground way some muslims approach their faith and the effect that their expectations may have on some freedoms in our society. This is a democracy, and once they are part of it they have as much right as anyone else to try and organise politically and aim to have society run they way they want. I worry about what they will want really.

I especially don't like the way a small fraction of muslims seem to be totally convinced that they should kill as many civilians as possible in "the West" as a religious duty of vengence for its "oppression" of muslims, or that they should react violenty to teach people who dare insult Islam a hard lesson. Maybe this can be dealt with with better border security + checks - but that will of course target muslims disproportionately again, and weed them out of visa applications even if superficially it is not directly aimed at muslims.

When muslim numbers in Ireland grow large enough I think there will start to be enough of both the zealots and the violent zealots to cause problems in the same way as they re in the UK + Europe.

(EDIT: As I said earlier, the media can give a false impression of the size of these problems, but they do exist and I'm glad that they are not really Ireland's problems at the moment.)

You may say that if "we" (I'm including everyone here) don't discriminate, and are as accomodating and tolerant as possible, if Ireland stays neutral and doesn't back the US [at least not openly] in its wars etc we will have no worries but I don't believe it.

Of course, the very fact that I posted that comment about muslim immigration and píssed you off has probably just done its little bit to create the self-fulfilling prophesy already.

InFront wrote:

No. The block on total migration occurs as it should, they dont actually take religious worship into account.

How do they decide to apportion visas? If the country the app. is coming from is taken into account in the process at all that may be efectively an indirect filter for religion (as with the US's terrorism restrictions on several mainly muslim countries).

How do you think they (we) should apportion visas if you'd agree a cap on total numbers is allowable? (i.e. not "open borders" which I'd take to mean: "No matter where you are from, if you really want to come, and you don't seem to be a criminal or a terrorist or something, then you are welcome".)

Also, there is no block on "Total migration" but there are blocks on immigration from outside the EU (non-EU citizens). Another example of different rules based on where you come from in the current system.