Poker as an income

An Gaiscíoch

I see alot of threads on boards from people looking to take up poker professionally and as their sole income. I was just wondering what kind of bank roll and what stakes would be sufficient in order to use poker as a second income. It would probably entail 2-4 hours play a day and possibly double that at weekends. What is the best way to withdraw your money so that it acts the same as your primary work income ???
Cheers

ntlbell

Nearly time for the Bankroll Requirement/Managment Netteller go pro for the wannabe sticky?

Norwich Fan Rob

i play 30-35 hours a week, (and also work 36 hours a week in a normal job, pretty mad huh).

Withdrawals are best through the likes of neteller, although i just get it lodged back to my credit card, and get them to send out a cheque every couple of weeks.

However, i do think its best to use neteller as your "poker bank" and u can move money around the various sites via this, and then can transfer it into your bank account.

Most people say u need to play cash games to make it as a pro. This is incorrect. I rarely play cash, and breakeven at it more or less when i do.
Check my blog to see how much im making at this from purely STTs and MTTs and HU tourneys.

As a bankroll, u should never put more than 5% of your roll in play in any one game. And dont move up stakes too quickly.

Discipline, bankroll management, and the ability not to tilt are crucial, and the reason why many average players make a nice few quid, and some better players go broke.

TrueDub

Have a read of the life rake if you haven't already. I found it to be the best piece of writing on this subject I've read for a while.

ntlbell

TrueDub wrote:

Have a read of the life rake if you haven't already. I found it to be the best piece of writing on this subject I've read for a while.

A good read, but I don't think it will help him out much.

nicnicnic

TrueDub wrote:

Have a read of the life rake if you haven't already. I found it to be the best piece of writing on this subject I've read for a while.

ditto re that article, deserves more exposure, a great piece and a must read for anyone thinking of giving up there job.

An Gaiscíoch

I actually read ur blog quite a bit Rob. You seem to do well for yourself ! I usually play more HU and STT's than Cash anyway

MrPillowTalk

there was an extensive thread with a lot of worthwile posts recently, do a search for it.

DeVore

*blush*...

I started out with 10,000 in cash and some spare work that might get me through a sticky month every 3 or so. My life costs are very very light though, I rent a flat, I pay some utility bills and I eat. Thats about it. I have no wife, no car, no pension, no mortage.
I can easily survive on 2k a month so I guess a better way to do it is to say I had 5 months of expenses ready to go.

I also had a bit of side work going, so I really only had to make 1k-1.5k from poker. My ex's tend to be on the large side as I travel to cover a lot of tournies and also to play in them but a 7k money, a 2k money and several ITM finishes in the big tournies meant my bankroll hasnt suffered or dropped in the last 12 months.

For me its a bit different then the 100% cash players. I play cash to keep me going until I hit another tournament to stock up the bankroll. I don't generally make enough (because I dont get time to play enough at the stakes I play) to keep my head above water but its enough to get me from tourie result to tournie result, which does put me ahead of the curve.

On the plus side, its an interesting lifestyle. Lots of travel (for me, most pros dont do as much as I), lots of interesting people to meet and something other then just another cubicle life being lead. But this isnt a retirement plan, I wont be pro in 3 years time, that much I know.

Finally, people talk about becoming a pro or "turning pro" etc. The reality is a lot simpler.

Want to turn pro.... walk into your bosses office and clearly state that his wife consorts with sailors for mutual benefit. 10 minutes later, you're a poker pro!

There are only a handful of successful pros out there.

DeV.

ntlbell

DeVore wrote:

My ex's tend to be on the large side

DeV.

Mine too, big women can also be part of the life rake.

never took you for a BBW admirer Dev

jacQues

DeVore wrote:

Want to turn pro.... walk into your bosses office and clearly state that his wife consorts with sailors for mutual benefit. 10 minutes later, you're a poker pro!

ROFL

Let me try that here and now...

(10 minutes later)

She laughed.

jacQues

allin-king

DeVore wrote:

*

There are only a handful of successful pros out there.

DeV.

I'd have to agree with this, i mean how many pro's own a house, car, are wealthy and good living as oppossed to most "pro's" who are degenerate gamblers who will never get a mortgate / loan, unhealthy and ****ty lifestyle and usually not a pot to piss as far as i can see.

Most (not all) proffesional gamblers are bums imo who are too lazy to work, always chasing a big win, i also i know i would find it depressing if my sole income was poker and i was having a bad few weeks / months especially those with a wife and kids. How could any sane person legislate a bad few weeks / months to a non gambling person

DeVore

I really object to being referred to as a professional gambler.

DeV.

5starpool

degenerate is ok though?

iBoT

DeVore wrote:

I really object to being referred to as a professional gambler.

DeV.

i do 2, nice advice , its so true

MadsL

I'd have to agree with this, i mean how many pro's own a house, car, are wealthy and good living as oppossed to most "pro's" who are degenerate gamblers who will never get a mortgate / loan, unhealthy and ****ty lifestyle and usually not a pot to piss as far as i can see.

Most (not all) proffesional gamblers are bums imo who are too lazy to work, always chasing a big win, i also i know i would find it depressing if my sole income was poker and i was having a bad few weeks / months especially those with a wife and kids. How could any sane person legislate a bad few weeks / months to a non gambling person

So don't do it. From this and other posts you seem to be on a crusade. Touched you personally in some way?

DeVore

"Degenerate" I can live with

DeV.

allin-king

it hasn't touched me personally at all.

its just i hear people all the time now becoming pro poker players and i think its the worst choice anyone could ever make, BTW i use poker as a second income but i would NEVER play professionally.

Is there anything i said in my original post that isn't true?

And i'm not talking about someone like Dev (Who has many fingers in many pies;) ) i was talking about people who give up everything to make it as a pro player

MadsL

It just comes across as though you despise them for it...I'm sure you don't mean it that way...

Hectorjelly

allin-king wrote:

its just i hear people all the time now becoming pro poker players and i think its the worst choice anyone could ever make

I think there may be worse

DeVore

The way the numbers work for pro players you would either have to be a top top professional or be playing at higher stakes then the vast majority of people can afford.

EG: to play pro at 1/2 NLH you should be sitting down with the guts of 1k in your pocket per night. 500 with a reload. You need to be able to take a week of losses which means about 4k down the tubes and that has to be shrugged off. A losing month will mean 5-6k down the tubes.

Working backwards pretend you want to make 3k a month on average. You (as a pro) should have a return of about 20-25% so you need to be staking about 10k a month. (see Mikes post on Antesup's forums). If you are in a position to stake that much a month, you must have made that cash as an office worker. So thats a bankroll of 20-30k. Where did you get that cash from.... because it sounds like you had something pretty sweet going on if you could amass that amount of money!

I'm lucky because between my very cheap lifestyle, alternative incomes, and low stakes tables my skill level allows me to keep my head above water and enjoy an alternative lifestyle. Just.

DeV.

NickyOD

allin-king wrote:

I'd have to agree with this, i mean how many pro's own a house, car, are wealthy and good living as oppossed to most "pro's" who are degenerate gamblers who will never get a mortgate / loan, unhealthy and ****ty lifestyle and usually not a pot to piss as far as i can see.

Most (not all) proffesional gamblers are bums imo who are too lazy to work, always chasing a big win, i also i know i would find it depressing if my sole income was poker and i was having a bad few weeks / months especially those with a wife and kids. How could any sane person legislate a bad few weeks / months to a non gambling person

This is one of the shallowest opinions ever expressed on this forum. You are comparing a professional poker player to a degenerate gambler. Please don't paint the two with the same brush. Also, unlike you not everyone thinks the quality of your life isn't measured by how many cars you have in your driveway.

allin-king wrote:

i i was talking about people who give up everything to make it as a pro player

Give up everything? Give up what exactly? A 9 to 5 job? If that is everything to someone then they need to see a psychotherapist or get some sort of life therapy.

empirix

While only new on the "live" scene i can see it as being a somewhat glamourous but very pressurised lifestyle, unless one is already loaded. I was making around $600 profit a week playinf about 20 hours on the net, this went on for about 6 weeks and then all of a sudden BANG, numerous bad beats and that profit was down from $3000 + to $450, in a matter of 5 - 7 days, i dunno whether it was beginners look or i started to get too greedy and play looser and when the beats came i went on tilt as well as feelinf PPP was fixed(but then i wasnt thinking this when the cards went my way!!!).

So anyways i decided to hit the "live" scene. So after around a month on the live scene playinf $1/$2 cash games mainly on Fri and Sat nights, i am up about €2760 - a few toasties and drinks. Again it could be beginners look but i do play quite tight and the hands don't seem to be as good as hands being hit on the net(for everybody), i am also finding to be quite confident around the table and can easily shrug off somebody staring at me and talking to see if they get a tell(an ability that very much surprised me) and i am loving the "buzz" and the banter from it all, but i can only imagine doing this full time, the pressure must be hell. But if anybody is going pro, i think it has to be done playing "live", too many distractions playing on the net and when the chips are not in front of you and you can't feel em, well for me the money doesnt seem quite real(but it most definitely is)

bohsman

empirix wrote:

While only new on the "live" scene i can see it as being a somewhat glamourous but very pressurised lifestyle, unless one is already loaded. I was making around $600 profit a week playinf about 20 hours on the net, this went on for about 6 weeks and then all of a sudden BANG, numerous bad beats and that profit was down from $3000 + to $450, in a matter of 5 - 7 days, i dunno whether it was beginners look or i started to get too greedy and play looser and when the beats came i went on tilt as well as feelinf PPP was fixed(but then i wasnt thinking this when the cards went my way!!!).

So anyways i decided to hit the "live" scene. So after around a month on the live scene playinf $1/$2 cash games mainly on Fri and Sat nights, i am up about €2760 - a few toasties and drinks. Again it could be beginners look but i do play quite tight and the hands don't seem to be as good as hands being hit on the net(for everybody), i am also finding to be quite confident around the table and can easily shrug off somebody staring at me and talking to see if they get a tell(an ability that very much surprised me) and i am loving the "buzz" and the banter from it all, but i can only imagine doing this full time, the pressure must be hell. But if anybody is going pro, i think it has to be done playing "live", too many distractions playing on the net and when the chips are not in front of you and you can't feel em, well for me the money doesnt seem quite real(but it most definitely is)

If youre playing for a living you literally have to play online for game selection game speed and your only chance of having a normal lifestyle

/leaves thread to get some sleep after playing online all night.

Norwich Fan Rob

online play is fundamental to being a sucessful pro.
live play is a nice change but not done with a view to bottom line.
i must be totally crazy in the head, i have a house with a mortgage, a very good job earning more than average, and im on the verge of jacking it in to play this game full time.
After reading this thread, i need serious help, perhaps i should go see someone.

Doctor Fell

NickyOD wrote:

This is one of the shallowest opinions ever expressed on this forum. You are comparing a professional poker player to a degenerate gambler. Please don't paint the two with the same brush. Also, unlike you not everyone thinks the quality of your life isn't measured by how many cars you have in your driveway.

Give up everything? Give up what exactly? A 9 to 5 job? If that is everything to someone then they need to see a psychotherapist or get some sort of life therapy.

Nicky,

I don't think this is a shallow opinion at all. I agree there should be no comparison between degenerate gambler and pro poker player, but the reality is a person whose sole source of income comes from playing the gambling game of poker is a professional gambler. Its not an insult, its just fact.

I think what Allin_King means about giving "everything" up, is not just as simple as quitting a 9-5 job. You are giving up the security of full time, dependable employment and all the benefits that come from that. I know that may sound boring to you, and it may not matter to you, but what about someone with responsibilities to people other than themselves? Dev made a lot of sense in this thread, and as he said it works out fine for him, he has no family to support, no car and living expenses are quite reasonable. I don't think someone with a family to provide for needs a pyschotherapist to explain the importance of a "9-5" typical job, when you have insurance, mortgage, car etc to pay for.
Basically, sure its cool to be a poker pro, and I'm sure not many people like the slog of a 9-5, but unfortunately it is a necessity for most people!

Norwich Fan Rob

5 points

1. poker is NOT a game of luck in the long run.
2. poker is NOT gambling.
3. A professional poker player is more akin to a pro golfer or snooker player
than a pro gambler who backs horses, sports betting etc.
4. Only good players realise this.
5. poker has to be the most misunderstood game out there by the vast majority of people.

Doctor Fell

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

5 points

1. poker is NOT a game of luck in the long run.
2. poker is NOT gambling.
3. A professional poker player is more akin to a pro golfer or snooker player
than a pro gambler who backs horses, sports betting etc.
4. Only good players realise this.
5. poker has to be the most misunderstood game out there by the vast majority of people.

A few points:

What is the "long run"? How long? What happens if you go broke in the meantime?
Poker quite clearly IS gambling. Could you explain how it is not? And please don't say its because I'm not good enough to understand, that's just insulting (and false).
I don't think the analogy is to snooker player is correct. Sure you need discipline etc, but a poker player wagers money (or gambles money) on an unpredictable outcome. I know you could say the run of the balls in snooker equates to variance or luck, but not really and not to the same extent.

bohsman

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

5 points

1. poker is NOT a game of luck in the long run.
2. poker is NOT gambling.
3. A professional poker player is more akin to a pro golfer or snooker player
than a pro gambler who backs horses, sports betting etc.
4. Only good players realise this.
5. poker has to be the most misunderstood game out there by the vast majority of people.

That should be in the pokerguide sticky.

allin-king

MadsL wrote:

It just comes across as though you despise them for it...I'm sure you don't mean it that way...

Okay if it looks that way then im coming across the wrong way.

Course i don't despise Pro Players, my point was i'm hearing a lot of people packing in their jobs these days and i suppose it does annoy me that these guys think it will be a walk in the park as a pro when in reality it will NOT be a glamourous lifestyle and they will at different stages of their career be potless

Also i was wrong to use the term Proffesional Gamblers (Very slight Difference) although you will find alot of pro players are heavy gamblers by nature anyways

Norwich Fan Rob

this will outrage some, but its a fact as far as i am concerned, i used to think it was luck, it was gambling, sure i might win if i hit a few cards, tonight might be my night etc etc, for 7/8 months i lost at this game, thinking i was unlucky, im due some variance etc.

U really wont get to understand what i mean, unless u have seen the light so to speak, i dont mean to be condesending in any way to some people, but guys, theres several players out there, who WILL make money certainly 10 months out of 12 in a year, and substantial money at that, its NOT gambling for these people, its an excellent source of income.

Poker is one of the most highly skilled professions out there, and the fact that 99% of people who play dont understand this, is one of the reasons why those who do understand this, can do so well.

I play as an amatuer, purely part time, to middle stakes, i would rarely stake more than €200 on an STT or play cash at higher than $3/6 blinds. My WORST month this year shows a profit of over €5.5k. This is more than my salary. Hense, i am toying with going pro when i get back from the world series in Vegas. I dont think ive gone mad, i have a detailed spreadsheet with all my results, my bankroll management is good, i will NOT go broke, i am very confident of that.

I know a lot of u will read this and either not believe it, or just think im wrong, and thats your opinion, if u get your head down, read, work at your game and want to make it work, theres a good chance u will come back to me in 7/8 months with a different opinion to the one u have now.

allin-king

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

this will outrage some, but its a fact as far as i am concerned, i used to think it was luck, it was gambling, sure i might win if i hit a few cards, tonight might be my night etc etc, for 7/8 months i lost at this game, thinking i was unlucky, im due some variance etc.

U really wont get to understand what i mean, unless u have seen the light so to speak, i dont mean to be condesending in any way to some people, but guys, theres several players out there, who WILL make money certainly 10 months out of 12 in a year, and substantial money at that, its NOT gambling for these people, its an excellent source of income.

Poker is one of the most highly skilled professions out there, and the fact that 99% of people who play dont understand this, is one of the reasons why those who do understand this, can do so well.

I play as an amatuer, purely part time, to middle stakes, i would rarely stake more than €200 on an STT or play cash at higher than $3/6 blinds. My WORST month this year shows a profit of over €5.5k. This is more than my salary. Hense, i am toying with going pro when i get back from the world series in Vegas. I dont think ive gone mad, i have a detailed spreadsheet with all my results, my bankroll management is good, i will NOT go broke, i am very confident of that.

I know a lot of u will read this and either not believe it, or just think im wrong, and thats your opinion, if u get your head down, read, work at your game and want to make it work, theres a good chance u will come back to me in 7/8 months with a different opinion to the one u have now.

first off don't think i'm some wolly brain who just started playing poker yesterday, i've been playing poker for 6-7 years now but are you saying that if you went pro you would not go broke? because you would be the first player to ever achieve this. Don't you think you would be better off having the stability of a job and using poker to supplement your income (I Do This)?

Also i think going full time would affect your play, i mean at the moment your playing part time making a nice few quid but if you went full time and on a bad run with the mortgate payment due i don't think you would be under severe pressure

Norwich Fan Rob

thats why im not pro now.
im very unsure about the whole thing.
its VERY hard to sit here in an office all day with the sun beating down, delaing with feckers on the phone, trying to reconcile stuff, for xk a month when im average nearly 3 times as much from playing poker for a few hours in the evening.
i dont know if im on some mega short run variance, im trying to be sensible about it, im quite confused to be honest.
most of my friends say dont do it, until they see the figures, now they are split 50/50.
i will give it a few more months as i am, and see how i cope with a bad month, it depends what a bad month is.
i do try and take on board as much advise as possible.
i will have 80k+ saved in a roll if i do go pro, and i wont change from playing my €200 stts, 2/5 and €100 buy in multis as my standard games.
As a qualified chartered accountant i can get another job if it doesnt work out.
Im battling with going upstairs and just jacking the job in on a daily basis, something inside me is stopping me from doing it right now.

ecksor

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

U really wont get to understand what i mean, unless u have seen the light so to speak, i dont mean to be condesending in any way to some people, but guys, theres several players out there, who WILL make money certainly 10 months out of 12 in a year, and substantial money at that, its NOT gambling for these people, its an excellent source of income.

Just because you can beat the game doesn't mean it isn't gambling. I don't see how the word has anything to do with whether you win over the long term or not.

allin-king

Well i personally don't have the discipline that you would have but if i were you i'd continue to work and enjoy any poker winnings you get.

Anyways best of luck whatever you decide do

Norwich Fan Rob

gambling implies that u have no direct say over the outcome, and it basically comes down to luck, or something u have no control over.
whilst this applies to a certain degree to any one game of poker, it doesnt apply to a career as a poker player.

probablity dictates that if u have a certain ROI over a large sample of games (subjective as to what a large sample is), then that figure is a fair reflection of your edge in the game, and its reasonable to base this as your average return for the foreseeable future.

therefore, playing stts in stakes comfortable for your bankroll, at a rate of 21% ROI will lead to a steady return at this rate over any reasonable time frame. I dont see the "gamble" in that.

Doctor Fell

Rob,

first off fair play to you, I've also read your blog sometimes and you're doing very well by all accounts.
All I am saying is that while poker is definitely a great source of income for some people, it is still gambling. And sure, some people are better gamblers than others. I'm not sure what light you saw, and you have your understanding of the game which works well for you. I also believe, having played poker all my life, that I can see the game for what it really is. Years ago I also quit my job (very good "day job") to play professionally. I was sure I couldn't go broke etc, but unfortunately I did. Some other people I knew at the time did the same but didn't go broke, in fact they are very wealthy now! So maybe I made mistakes, but that's not the point here really. I think as was said that its amazing how quickly things can change for the worst, or how having to win can effect your play or mind set. I know I wouldn't do it again unless I had a *huge* BR, and certainly not with 80K. But that's just me. I think there's a lot to be said for having a safety net, it takes off the pressure, and you can relax and enjoy your extra income more I think.
whatever you do anyways best of luck!!

ecksor

gambling implies that u have no direct say over the outcome, and it basically comes down to luck, or something u have no control over.
whilst this applies to a certain degree to any one game of poker, it doesnt apply to a career as a poker player.

It implies many things to many people, but the real misconception IMO is not that people think that poker players are gamblers but that people associate all sorts of things with that word. There are plenty of dictionary definitions of the word that are consistent with calling a winning poker player a gambler. To say that a winning poker player doesn't gamble just confuses the issue for most people when in fact the crucial point is that they gamble in a scientific and / or clever way.

MadsL

Would it make you feel better if you looked at it this way (repost)

You are an online day trader specialising in risk management and variance reduction strategies with a expertise in short-term money markets, that you manage a specialised portfolio (called a bankroll) with a reasonable risk and a high-yield potential.

Look, I know someone in her eighties who trades short calls on a daily basis, she is exposed to unlimited risk if that stock rises rapidly. Brokers usually only allow very experienced traders to deal with these calls. She is an accountant, not a broker. But, she also happens to be a world-class bridge player. Sharp as a tack. I don't think anyone would call her a degenerate gambler (although she also a mean craps player) but this is how she pretty much makes her income.

I've tried to encourage her to learn poker, as I think she would slay most players, but she says she is too old to learn

ionapaul

I read your blog on a weekly basis Rob and will be very interested to see what choices you make. Don't want to cloud the thread with more noise or meaningless platitudes, but I truly believe (after 29 years on this earth) that the things we regret the most are things we don't do, rather than things we do and mess up. I would give anything go back in time, slap myself in the face and say 'go for it you idiot!' on a few occassions during my life. As you can tell, I'm not one of those people who go around saying they regret nothing, I regret being overly-cautious big time!

How seriously will leaving your present position affect your future career prospects should you take up accountancy again in 1, 2 or 5 years? Can you afford to lose 1 year and say €25000 and accept 'defeat' if needs be? I'm sure these are the questions you are thinking over as some of the more importants ones, well, other than the really important lifestyle questions that is!

ianmc38

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

2. poker is NOT gambling.

That's fantasy. The only time you're not gambling is when you have the stone cold nuts.

To say poker isn't gambling is delusional.

Doctor Fell

ionapaul wrote:

Don't want to cloud the thread with more noise or meaningless platitudes, but I truly believe .....

I dunno, I don't think there's been any noise or meaningless platitudes bandied about here. All relevant imo...

empirix

Thats fair enough Rob, but i was advising against going pro unless absolutely sure and have the confidence of course, i think the majority of people here would love to go pro for a while at least, to see how it goes.

Out of curiosity what site do you play on and what tables, cash games tournies etc

ionapaul

Doctor Fell wrote:

I dunno, I don't think there's been any noise or meaningless platitudes bandied about here. All relevant imo...

What I meant that what I was going to post sounds a lot like a platitude - but I believe it at least and try to keep it in the front of my mind. Lots of relevant posts so far, definitely.

jacQues

Guys, its simple really.

When you get all your chips and someone elses chips in the middle on a 70%/30%; this is 100% pure gambling.

When you do so consistantly; this is a winning strategy and therefore not gambling.

Thus, in my hamster's opinion, playing poker is always gambling but a poker career is not. The same applies to other cardgames and even boardgames where you use dice. The roll of dice is 100% pure gambling, but the overall strategy for the game will predict if you will win more or lose more.

Because of the nature of poker, the edge of a professional poker player is small, probably only 3%. But if a casino can run on a 3% edge doing roulette and simular games and also give punters free drinks from that 3%. Then certainly a professional poker player can make a living from playing poker and still tip the dealer.

If you are an Internet professional, you can multitable and there is no need to travel. Thus you can do so with lower stakes (read; lower bankroll). If you want to be a live pro, you need to have a massive bankroll to cover for higher buyins, travel and lodging expenses. Because of this, the number of Internet professionals greatly overshadows the number of live pros.

jacQues

Norwich Fan Rob

some very good points, and im interested in all the feedback.
Id no idea so many people read my blog.
Ian , if poker is played properly over mainly games its not gambling. Almost everything is gambling in the short run if u think about it.
The luck involved with short run one off items is diluted the more often u do them and the more edge u have on the field.
Lets move away from whether its gambling are not, people can have their opinion, mine is that its not gambling per se.

Iago makes some good points, ive been in my current job for almost 5 years, and if i left, i cant go back to the same company.
However, i could get another job in practice or another company fairly easily, albeit, probably not on quite as much money as i am now, or with the same benefits, ie no real overtime, nice holidays etc.
However, the idea of being able to play poker in my own time is very appealing, yes the stress of "having" to win might be a factor.

I think the best thing is to continue as i am until after the world series anyway. (who knows, a cash in that might give me an easy decision, lol theres me getting carried away again).

expirix, click the link in my signature and u can read about the games i play, what stakes, sites etc.

Doctor Fell

jacQues wrote:

When you get all your chips and someone elses chips in the middle on a 70%/30%; this is 100% pure gambling.

When you do so consistantly; this is a winning strategy and therefore not gambling.

I agree with the first part, but surely when you do this consistently it is simply gambling consistently? I don't see how you can suddenly eliminate gambling just because you do it very often. It may be a winning strategy, but it is still gambling. Gambling in a smart manner, but gambling.

Edit: might have said "gambling" once too often above, sorry!

El Stuntman

sounds like you are torn and confused...never mind the smokescreen about poker being gambling.

why not let your HU match against Hectorjelly decide your future?

jacQues

ianmc38 wrote:

That's fantasy. The only time you're not gambling is when you have the stone cold nuts.

Hold on. If you are holding the stone cold nuts, aren't you gambling on your opponent(s) calling your bet?

If they fold you don't win anything/much. And since betting isn't exact science, determining the size of your bet (or even checking) isn't all that clearcut since otherwise it would be too predictable. Therefore, even in this scenario...aren't you gambling that you used the correct betting size so they will call?

jacQues

ianmc38

Yes absolutely.

Magic Pips

new to online poker play... just something to think of...

forget about the financial repercusions, what about working on your own... social life... etc etc...

You may very well get bored very easily...?