What law will the Kiwis bend this time?

Snickers Man

Now lest I be accused of prejudicial rantings bordering on <shock!! horror!!> racism, let's be quite clear from the off:

The All Blacks are, on a level playing field, the most awesomely prodigious, talented, courageous, skilful, well drilled team of rugby players on the planet.

Their speed and strength is remarkable. Their skill levels are astronomical. Their strength in depth ridiculous. Their tactical nous uncanny. Their will to win indomitable.

So what's not to like?

Well, despite all that, they just like to make sure. They hate losing, especially to sides they've never lost to before and are not averse to bending the rules. In fact, having observed them for many years, they seem to plan in advance just what set of rules it is that they will seek to push to the limits of interpretation and beyond before embarking on a test series.

Way back in 1967, when they toured Britain undefeated (they didn't come to Ireland because of Foot and Mouth disease) they launched what one journalist at the time called 'the most massive sustained assault on the lineout laws ever seen'. Basically they would all take a step sideways as soon as the ball was thrown in to the lineout so that it would pass over their heads and come back on their side. It was barging, effectively, but done so systematically that it didn't look to referees like the pushing and shoving they were used to penalising.

Ironically it was an Irish referee, Paddy D'Arcy, who copped on to what they were doing and started penalising them off the park. So they objected to his taking charge of the test against Scotland. Kevin Kelleher, another Irish ref, took over and made history by sending off the iconic Colin Meads for dangerous play.

The lineout laws were changed shortly afterwards, which is where the notion of a metre space between the two teams came into play.

In the late 90s, when they toured here, the All Blacks brought the innovation of 'running interference' or obstruction as it is also called. A player running in front of the ball carrier like an American footballer but at such a shallow angle that it didn;t look like the more blatant 'crossing' which was and is outlawed.

Again, the interpretation of that law had to be tightened up but not before the All Blacks made hay at a lot of ref's expense.

On the Lions tour last year, the All Blacks realised that policing the 'numbers' in a lineout is quite difficult especially if a team concertedly acts to hoodwink the referee. The devastation they wrought on the Lions lineout in the first test was the real difference between the teams. The Lions just couldn't get going.

What was needed was leadership on the field. To realise what was going on and then make the point, politely of course and through the captain, that the laws were being broken and that if the ref didn't sort it out then a free for all would develop.

You can rest assured that they are planning some nefarious transgression of the laws for this one. They don't leave things to chance. That is why Ireland has never beaten New Zealand. At least they, unlike say the English, always pay the opposition the compliment of treating them seriously.

I wonder what it's going to be this time.

mikedragon32

Interesting post...

They still run interference on a regular basis. Rokokoco's try agains Wales in November 05 is one of the most glaring examples I can remember, but it was a regular feature in the Lions Tour last year too. Commentators seem to ignore it too.

I think you might see a bit of tom-foolery off the back of the scrum, No. 8 using ref to block the SH/OH and punch a big hole in the defence.

As for the leadership on the field, I still don't think BOD is the man for the job. Any time I hear him talking with the ref, it just sounds like whining. Better to have POC who speaks to the ref with some authority.

daveirl

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mikedragon32

daveirl wrote:

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Not to mention turning the scrum before the put in, shoving before the put in.

ABs took a long time to throw in the ball at lineouts and should have been penalised several times.

Lineouts were rarely straight in the Maori game and they were still under pressure.

Wasn't the ref last night born and raised in NZ? He wasn't a bad ref, all things considered, but a little more thought needs to to into the choice of officials.

Was interested to know why some of the guys playing for Maori aren't making the AB team. Is it because they can't run interference as well as their senior team?

zAbbo

In the Aus v Eng game this morning, Aus were penalised for taking too long for the lineout, which was nowhere near half the time taken by Mealamu.

Scrumtime was unbelievable, different set of rules indeed, makes us look like a bunch of sore losers though

prophetnz

mikedragon32 wrote:

Wasn't the ref last night born and raised in NZ? He wasn't a bad ref, all things considered, but a little more thought needs to to into the choice of officials.

Was interested to know why some of the guys playing for Maori aren't making the AB team. Is it because they can't run interference as well as their senior team?

No, its because there not good enough for the senior team. Maybe you guys can play them instead.

As for the ref, hes from Australia. FYI its that big bloody Island to the west of NZ.

carlowboy

I think this is a worthless as you'll find no one will argue with you. The Kiwis obviously do have a different set of rules. We got constantly penalised for holding on when they were lying all over the ball ffs! Mc Caw is a very clever player, cheating like that, but Dickinson was never going to be the referee to cop it.

Crash

Quick lineouts - number of forward throws from them : 2 or 3 i believe. Quick lineouts taken: 2 or 3 i believe.

I think we could probably list off numerous infringements during the match that went unpenalised.

Its a pity that the allblacks do play to the rule(and past it in some cases) because they have such skill and style - they don't honestly need to. Does my head in.

Hippo

daveirl wrote:

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Agree 100%. McCaw seems to be allow do whatever the fcuk he wants on the ground. His back remained disappointingly unmarked. The day will come when someone hammers them again, but I fear it won't be us....

mikedragon32

prophetnz wrote:

No, its because there not good enough for the senior team. Maybe you guys can play them instead.

As for the ref, hes from Australia. FYI its that big bloody Island to the west of NZ.

Perhaps you should go back and read my post again... I was referring at that point to the A game V Maori.

I'm fully aware of Australia too... That's the country where they play rugby really well without having to cheat so much.

daveirl

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mikedragon32

Much like their Kiwi cousins!

Who doesn't choke in WC at some point?

daveirl

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mikedragon32

Do you think they've peaked too soon again?

TriNations will make for very interesting viewing this season. Especially with Aus and NZ tinkering with their teams so much. Although I can't see NZ risking starting with two open-side flankers again too soon.

daveirl

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prophetnz

mikedragon32 wrote:

I'm fully aware of Australia too... That's the country where they play rugby really well without having to cheat so much.

I guess you dont watch them play as much as I do, there just as bad.

Seriously, your players where off side alot during the match, had a very SA style of defence going on.

mikedragon32

prophetnz wrote:

I guess you dont watch them play as much as I do, there just as bad.

Seriously, your players where off side alot during the match, had a very SA style of defence going on.

You'll find the point of this thread is to discuss the systematic rulebreaking employed by NZ. It's an unavoidable fact, borne out by not just this thread but on other forums such as the BBC Scrum V forums also. Indeed many articles have been written over the years on this very topic.

You'll find very few on this board to agree with you Prophet, but it's nice to think you believe some countries flout the rules more than you!

prophetnz

I never said more than. Im simply pointing out that you can bitch all you want, but make no mistake you and every other team bends and sometimes breaks the rules to there advantage.

RuggieBear

Ireland were offside quite bit on sat...

As for McCaw, does he even know the rules at the breakdown? the amount of times he was lying on the ground (often on the wrong side) desperately trying to squeeze his hands and arms thru the ruck to get at the ball.....:rolleyes:

Ronan|Raven

McCaw has been at that all season in the Super 14's

daveirl

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mikedragon32

I read an article a while back (I'll see if I can trawl it up from the net) about the Aus and NZ Unions looking for a change in the rules to make that legal as it's "difficult for the ref to ref the breakdown"...

mikedragon32

Linky to article mentioned earlier. It's from Sept 05.

Chucky the tree

Jaysus lads, you lads are as green as the grass.

Who's to blame? I wouldnt blame the NZ players. The reason we use referee's in a game is to unforce the rules. Is it the AB players' fault this isnt being done? Hell no.

Maybe if Ireland tried to bend/break the rules more often we wouldnt be so ****.

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

daveirl wrote:

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I am not saying they should be diving all the time, although jerry flanery(i think it was him) has previously suffered from the "sniper syndrome".

Do NZ matches decent into a farce all the time? Of course not. They know excactly how to play the game.

If you want to win in Rugby you cant afford to play fair. Sometimes you have stick your hands in the ruck/not roll away to stop conceding tries. Irish players have done this plenty of times, and will continue to do it.


So your telling me if you had a choice between playing like NZ and winning, or playing like Ireland and losing you pick the Irish way? Very interesting..

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

daveirl wrote:

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No we cant beat them playing our own way. We showed that on saturday, perfect chance to do it but we blew it as usual.


Ended up giving them a good few points in penalties aswell..

Crash

personally I agree with Dave here - I have no interest in supporting an Irish team that doesn't play within the spirit of the rules - Just because the games professional doesn't mean "do anything to win"

Hippo

I agree on this too, winning at all costs is wrong. I even hate Duffer falling over any time anyone goes near him when he's wearing a green shirt.

daveirl

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Funkstard

I think he just runs leaning so far forward that it only takes a small touch to send him on his ear. Who knows.

Hippo

Funkstard wrote:

I think he just runs leaning so far forward that it only takes a small touch to send him on his ear. Who knows.

Perhaps.

daveirl

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RuggieBear

there is a soccer forum lads.....:D

but remember C Meads taking a dive at a line out to make sure he won a penalty against Wales

daveirl

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RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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exactly

Hippo

In fairness to Meads who was a bit of a monster, that incident was well after his time. I think it was Andy(?) Haden who dived, and the ref actually penalised Geoff Wheel for something else in the lineout. The intent was certainly there though!

mikedragon32

Haden dived in a lineout in the match V Wales in 1978. Made Flaz's dive look manly.

Diamondmaker

My Kiwi mate mailed me this when I mailed him the link to this thread!

"I don't remember him (McCaw) going in over the top in the rucks, but then again it could have happened considering the speed of the game at times.

We have always pushed the laws to their limit, we used to have a 'rover' (player within the scrum that broke loose like a back) back in the 1950-60's, which brought into the game the loose forward positions as they are today, especially the role of No 8. The English called us cheats, the rules were changed and now we have a more exciting game, could you imagine the scrum without men being able to break away from the back? Some of the best tries have come from the No 8 breaking off the back of the scrum."

Oh and this bit!

"Bunch of whingers, sound worse than poms. What ever happened to honourable defeat? The Irish outplayed the all blacks for the first 60 mins, but they lack the killer instinct the all blacks are able to muster in so many games to win from a losing situation."

RuggieBear

Hippo wrote:

In fairness to Meads who was a bit of a monster, that incident was well after his time. I think it was Andy(?) Haden who dived, and the ref actually penalised Geoff Wheel for something else in the lineout. The intent was certainly there though!

Oops, you are quite right...i always mix their names up:o

RuggieBear

Diamondmaker wrote:

Oh and this bit!

"Bunch of whingers, sound worse than poms. What ever happened to honourable defeat? "

We better not mention the 1995 World Cup final then....

TarfHead

Ah yes - 1978 and Andy Haden & Anton Oliver's Da blagging a penalty out of Roger Quittenton (sp?) which Brian McKechnie kicked for a 13-12 win.

A year later NZ were playing OZ in cricket and need a whack (6 or 4) off the last ball to win. The OZ captain instructed his bowler to bowl underarm to the NZ batsman to prevent him getting anything other than a single. Which he did and all of NZ threw a hissy fit about sportsmanship and fairness and all of that.

Ironically, the NZ batsman was the same Brian McKechnie.

From wikipedia
'It was described as "the most disgusting incident I can recall in the history of cricket" by the then Prime Minister of New Zealand, Rob Muldoon, who also observed that "It was an act of cowardice and I consider it appropriate that the Australian team were wearing yellow". '

Crash

Diamondmaker: if you're heading to the dropping well again this weekend i'll write a letter for your man :P hehehe

Diamondmaker

[post it up here Ill send him the link!

were you there last week? I never saw so many people and cars evaporate from such a small area so quickly! Like ants spreading in all directions and me doing a Uy across the whole width of the road nearly crasing into 3 cars from different directions!

Wont be there this time, few beers Fri night so will watch from the Kiwi free comfort of my couch!

Live rugby in boxers...ahh world cup memories!:cool:

Crash

Yeah i was - we showed up about 5 minutes before the match and were lucky to get seats. thing is if we'd won i'd have been skulling straight into a pint like - so hopefully this saturday

we ended up walking back actually - my dad decided to enforce it on myself and one of his mates. were knackered by the time we reached home :P

Diamondmaker

da is always wrong! then you grow up and realsie how much he learned in the subsequent years! Paraphrased.....any takers?

Not my quote but a good one:cool:

Chucky the tree

Hippo wrote:

I agree on this too, winning at all costs is wrong. I even hate Duffer falling over any time anyone goes near him when he's wearing a green shirt.

I am not talking about diving or something that blantant. But again, didnt flannery take a dive against england at twickenham? If it wasnt him it was someone else, but an irish player definitly dived.


Lets in saturdays match and the NZ are 5 metres out in the last minute and they pass the ball out wide. If BOD comes steaming out and delibrately slaps the ball down and we go on to win that all you lads will be sitting on the couch gutted because of the way we won it?

Somehoe i seriously doubt that.

daveirl

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Hippo

Chucky the tree wrote:

Lets in saturdays match and the NZ are 5 metres out in the last minute and they pass the ball out wide. If BOD comes steaming out and delibrately slaps the ball down and we go on to win that all you lads will be sitting on the couch gutted because of the way we won it?

Somehoe i seriously doubt that.

I'd hate it to happen, whether you seriously doubt that or not.

EdgarAllenPoo

A win is a win, cheating is only cheating if you get caught, bragging is only bragging if you can do it, etc.